Since people are worried, let's take an oath.

[adamrsilva]

ABB

[Walt Starr]

1. NBD

That's my oath.

[KC21304]

9. I sure hope you are able to get treatment for your whiplash.

Am I mistaken to think that within the last few days you said you would vote for someone other than Dean ? If I am wrong, I apologize. You may be the model of consistency. LOL

[Walt Starr]

11. You are mistaken

In the past few days I have said it would be unlikely for me to vote for anybody but Dean.

[KC21304]

24. " Unlikely " Now that is a little different than NBD.

If I remember correctly, you said if you remembered that it was election day on Nov 2, you might vote for Kerry if he was the nominee.
And I said I would remind you, if there was any chance at all of a vote for Kerry. So I guess maybe we both were a little mistaken.

But good luck to you now, with your NBD.

[Walt Starr]

31. Okay, now I definitely wouldn't vote for Kerry even on a bet

Sue me.

[Frederic Bastiat]

15. NBD = a vote for Bush!

What will you do when Dean doesn't win the nomination?

[Walt Starr]

18. There is only ONE way to vote for Bush

You must actually cast a ballot where you have checked his name as your preference.

Nothing else is a vote for Bush.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

22. BTW IF Dean does not win the nomination

I will vote third party or cast no ballot for the presidency.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Roses]

17. I just don't get it

I've been reading your posts all over this board and it's clear you are a die-hard Dean supporter, but answer me this: isn't it really about giving Bush his walking papers in the long run, regardless ...?

[Walt Starr]

19. No, it isn't, at least not to me any more

It's about voting FOR somebody.

I've lived under Bush for three years now. I njo longer fear Bush.

So it comes down to either we fundamentally alter the course of the Democratic Party or I must conclude the Democratic PArty is no longer worth any effort from me.

You cannot take my vote for granted over the fear of Bush any longer because I no longer fear that. If making things worse than they are now is what it takes to stop the business as usual pro-corporatist politics masquerading as a two party system, fine!

[Blue_Roses]

23. As someone who lived under

a Bush governorship and now a Presidency, then get ready 'cause if he is elected to another 4 years it WILL get worse.

"You cannot take my vote for granted over the fear of Bush any longer because I no longer fear that. If making things worse than they are now is what it takes to stop the business as usual pro-corporatist politics masquerading as a two party system, fine!"

Do you think our country hasn't seen it's share of ups and downs? Change comes from growth and to deny growth by a "pigeon-hole," thought doesn't fair well for this country. We already have a "fish-bowl minded" President and it keeps our country teetering on regression.

I respect your support for your candidate, but this isn't about ONE man. It's about OUR country and to keep it vibrant, we need some serious changes, but only by working together can we accomplish this.

:)

[leftynyc]

32. While I admire your enthusiam for your candidate,

please remember the next president will likely fill 3-5 supreme court seats. If more Scalia's don't scare you.....

[Walt Starr]

36. No, 3-5 more Scalias don't scare me

It is what this nation deserves if the Democratic Party continues down the road of corporations first, people second.

[Blue_Roses]

39. that is such a

hypocritical comment, "It is what this nation deserves if the Democratic Party continues down the road of corporations first, people second," since Dean opted out of campaign funding. Ironic indeed.

What a selfish comment. It's not about ONE man.

[Walt Starr]

40. I am only being honest

We get precisely the governement we deserve, and I'll be damned if I think this nation deserves anything better than it has right now.

[Blue_Roses]

43. YOU HAVE GOT TO KIDDING

"We get precisely the governement we deserve, and I'll be damned if I think this nation deserves anything better than it has right now."

Tell that to my 83 year-old mother and dad who fought so hard for this country in WWII. What a blatent slap in their face.

[AntiCoup2K4]

46. The blatant slap in their faces

Was when DLC corporatist "Democrats" in Congress voted FOR the Bush Criminal Empire's Destruction Of Medicare- More Profits for BCE Connected Pharmaceutical Companies bill. And I don't see them doing a damn thing about Bush and his chickenhawk Fraudministration slashing veteran's benefits either.

The DLC appeasers had their chance to act on these things and they did not. And now you think they can beat Junior??

[Walt Starr]

47. Yeah, well I tell that to everybody who puts up with

crap like corporatist candidates and would vote for Bush because he "seems like the kind of guy you'd like to have a beer with".

The United States of America has EXACTLY the government it deserves. It CHOSE THE DAMN THING!

[leftynyc]

42. Then I guess you'll be sitting out the '04 election.

Or voting 3rd party...either way, it's a waste of time to try and convince you you're cutting off your nose to spite your face and are obviously willing to see another 4 years of Bush cuz your candidate didn't win.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

33. "fundamentally alter the course of the Democratic Party"

Honestly I would love to hear how Dean is going to do what you state. I don't see anything being altered by the continuation of NAFTA, the Patriot Act, the illegal occupation of Iraq, the health insurance industry, not cutting the Pentagon budget, being pro death penalty....etc.

Which Howard Dean are we talking about?

The record and his policies or the rhetoric?

TWL

[BurtWorm]

2. Let's see how the primaries turn out.

Maybe people need to worry a little.

[mopinko]

3. some people are worried

about people who want them to take oaths.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. ABB? Sure. I swear to vote for an anti-war candidate.

He/She may be Green if the Democrats are foolish enough to nominate a candidate who voted for the IWR.

[Sir_Shrek]

5. What is the deal ....

...with all these oaths? They're all over the place here. Do we really not trust one another enough? I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to swear allegiance to A) a candidate who hasn't even been named yet (the ABB oath) or B) a political party in general.

[LTR]

6. BCAB

Best candidate against Bush

[Democrats unite]

7. There are going to be some people missing the train come...

Novemeber. I truley feel sad for them it's ABB! And thats whats going to happen in November!

[Monte Carlo]

8. Some here take "ABB" to include 3rd parties...

... which is a noble sentiment that I can sympathize with, but unless the dynamic of U.S. Presidential elections changes, I can't see how a 3rd party will ever become viable.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. That's not the point.

If the Democrats insist on becoming the moderate wing of the republican party by nominating a candidate who voted for the "war" in Iraq, then the only viable recourse is to vote to the left. To recapture those votes the Democratic Party will either have to move to the left or become (even more) irrelevant.

[Monte Carlo]

16. Well why does nominating a candidate who voted 'yes' make them disposable?

Nobody among the Democrats wanted to go to war, except maybe Lieberman. Doesn't that count for something?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. If they didn't want to go to war, why did they vote for it?

Please spare me the lame excuses that Kerry gives about being "deceived". 23 other senators voted against the war. Kerry, Edwards and Lieberman may not have "wanted" to go to war, but they didn't oppose it with their votes when they had the opportunity. Nor has "war hero" Kerry had the courage to recant and say that he was wrong to make that vote. In the meantime, thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of Americans are dead. Apparantly Kerry thought they were "disposable" so that he could further his political career.

[cheezus]

34. you want to send them a message?

They won't listen. And for every vote (yours) they lose on the left, they will move to make it up on the right.

Look at Michael Moore. In 2000, it was 'Bush and Gore are the same thing and we're under a one party system so you should vote Nader'. Bush was selected and ran the country insanely far to the right. Now Moore is backing Gen. Clark, who at least ties Lieberman for "Democratic Primary Contender Most Likely to Actually be a Republican".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. So? What's the alternative?

Collaborate even more with our votes? Give them yet another pass?

Not this time.

[goodhue]

10. okay, a super-duper double-secret oath

ABB
and lets swear to bring our troops home while we are at it . . .
http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

[RobertSeattle]

12. I starting to go ABBCDEF...

Anybody But
Bush
Cheney
Delay
Ed Gillespie
Fritz
etc

:evilgrin:

[bowens43]

14. ABBOC

anybody but Bush or Clark

[jonnyblitz]

26. no more oaths.n/t

[Adjoran]

27. Oath #12,562

Ease off a bit with the oaths.

If you're a Democrat, you will support the nominee.

Candidates's supporters have passion, and that's a good thing. There is little point in sticking the loyalty pledge in their faces just after a tough loss.

BUT - we must recognize that staying home or voting third-party IS a tacit vote for the repubs. There will be two candidates on the Nov 2 ballot with a chance to be President, no more. If you don't vote for the one closest to your own positions, you are helping the other guy.

As I've said many times, once we have a nominee I will support him fully. Until a nominee is selected, I will try to choose the candidate who I believe has the best chance of winning.

I may end up voting on Feb 3 for someone who isn't closest to my own views, if I think he has the best chance. I know that winning is the main thing; you can't do anything if you lose. Things don't look good for retaking the House or Senate this year, so the White House is our best chance. I want a Democrat appointing the next Attorney General and federal judges.

I've been on the losing side of campaigns as a volunteer, so I know the pain. It goes away eventually, and that takes a lot less than the four years of pain we would suffer by losing in November.

[bowens43]

28. 'If you're a Democrat, you will support the nominee.'????

So you get to decide who is and who isn't a Democrat? I've got news for you, I know several hardcore Democrats who won't vote for Clark under any circumstances. I'm sorry , but being a Democrat does not now, nor has it ever, meant being a lemming. I'm a Democrat and I will vote for the Democratic nominee ONLY if I approve of him.

"staying home or voting third-party IS a tacit vote for the repubs"

Bullshit. Voting for someone just because they have a (D) next to their name is a cop out. The only way to vote for Bush is to vote for Bush.

This about principle, something Democrats seem to finding in short supply of late. There are worse things then 4 more years of bush and the ABB attitude will go along way toward giving us those things.
If we become them , why bother changing the players?

[cheezus]

37. not bullshit at all, my friend

It would be different if we had proportional representation, or instant runoff voting, but our system makes it person A vs person B, and one of them WILL be elected.

The problem is that we think we're voting FOR someone. That's what the primaries are for. Once we get to the GE it's a matter of saying WHICH of the canidates you prefer. It sucks that our political system boils down to picking the lesser of two evils, but that's the way it is.

You're right, voting for someone just because they have a (D) next to their name IS a copout... but I know the guy with the (R) next to his name is going to be worse.

BTW - voting 3rd party or not voting at all isn't going to send the establishment a message -- you're doing that right now by being part of the process. If you truly want the party to change direction it is going to take a LOT more than just not voting in November. Keep working from within, and remember that change is slow.

[Walt Starr]

38. If that were so

Perot would not have spent some time as the frontrunner in '92, and he probably would have won too, had he not done the wigout nutso thing.

[bowens43]

45. Huh?

"BTW - voting 3rd party or not voting at all isn't going to send the establishment a message "

Who said anything about sending the establishment a message? I'm talking about principles. Voting for the least of two evils isn't the only option. Granted the third party candidate won't win, this time around or even next time around. But when the dominate parties become indistinguishable form one another things have to change. It takes time. This country hasn't always been a two party country. You are certainly free to vote for someone because he has a (D) next to his name, that's not a good enough reason for me. Since 1976 , I have always voted a straight Democratic ticket but that may change this year. Enough is enough.

[wyldwolf]

29. It is, and always has been, my oath

[IndianaGreen]

30. How about ABK?

I don't do oaths, I do affirmations.

[dreissig]

35. Dems Drifting to the Right

Dems are more than drifting to the right, they're even demanding friggin' loyalty oaths.

No, I don't plan on voting for Bush, or Bush Lite. We went through a terrible ordeal in 1968, and I don't want to go through it again.

[IndianaGreen]

41. They voted for PATRIOT Act

That alone should be a big clue that they have embraced the dark side.

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. AB-PNAC

As usual. And AB-DLC after the last month.

[Uzybone]

49. ABB

Anybody meaning the current Dem field. Those who are anything else are Repukes in my eyes.