Democrats: Bush intends to destroy your party and legacy.

[Q]

Democrats should understand that Bush is more than simply a 'bad' or misguided president. He was installed by Corporations and their Media for the singular purpose of destroying the Democratic party (of the people) and keeping the Neocons in power for decades. But I get the feeling that most Democrats won't truly understand this until 2008 when we see a repeat of 2000 and 2004.

Does anyone really believe that the Bush Republicans will stop their election fraud, civil rights abuses and voter disenfranchisement after two successful operations? They're on a roll with seemingly no one to stop them.

And they had help from within the Democratic party: the DLC. No...I'm not saying the DLCers participated in the actual cheating. They helped by ridiculing anyone who wanted recounts or investigations into election fraud by calling them 'conspiracy theorists'.

The DLC is also helping Bush with his 'doctrine' of unnecessary, aggressive wars by accusing those against it as 'hurting the cause' of the war on terror. Like Ashcroft, they insist that speaking out against unnecessary and illegal wars is 'helping the terrorists'.

The Democratic party now has to fight on two fronts: The Neocons and the Neodems. Their intent is to destroy the last remaining opposition to the Bush Family Empire. The DLC Neodems are much more dangerous to the future of the party because they pretend to be on 'our side' while working to undermine our resolve and divided us into factions.

Everything the Democratic party has worked for in the last several decades will be gone in four years if they don't recognize and neutralize the 'enemy' within and without. Don't believe it? We'll talk again in four years.

This is your country too...fight for it.

[Gloria]

1. I just heard the USA Today reporter on CSpan say that the

swearing in of all the member in the House is a "delightful" moment...

But, there may be some wrangling over the rules vote, which would be unusual...because while DeLay has "backed off" for public consumption, the GOP are introducing OTHER rules changes that will still block ethics investigations of members.

SEE?????????????????? So, I'm expecting HUGE FIREWORKS from DEMOCRATS, demanding attention in the press........NOT.

[Q]

3. Gloria...I hope we don't have to have this conversation again in 2008...

...but I see no sign of the Democratic rank and file showing discontent with their leadership. Worse...they don't seem to accept the message that there are more than just the Republican forces working against us.

I want my party to win elections...but not at the risk of giving up everything we've accomplished for the people. Why have we been put in the position of having to choose between right and wrong?

[Ravenseye]

30. The majority of people in this country are ignorant.

Democrat Republican Green....it doesn't matter.

Most Democracts I know are completely ignorant of whats going on and if they know more than just 'Bush Won', the repeat the line the media was using the day after. They stopped paying attention after that and probably won't pay attention till late October 2008.

What needs to happen is the party itself really needs to stand up and make noise. They're led currently by people who think it's better to not look whiny.

Well whats better: to stay quiet next to a criminal cause you don't want people to think you're a tattle tale, or point him the fuck out!?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[atreides1]

2. Corporations Just Trying to Finish the Job

Are you aware of the attempted presidential coup of 1934? It was perpetrated by the corporate elite rich; the Du Ponts, General Motors,
and Morgan Bank, just to name a few.

These corporate elite along with cetain backers financed a coup d' etat that would have overthrown FDR with the aid of 3,000,000 army of terrorist, molded on the facist movement in Paris known as the Croix De Feu.

The coup attempt failed due the the loyalty of General Smedley Butler,
who was approached by the plotters and asked to head the new military
based government.

General Butler informed FDR of the plot, most of the plotters left the country until the furor died down and Congress appointed a special committee to investigate the charges.

So the corporations are just trying to finish the job that was started
back in 1934, and this time we don't have a General Smedley Butler, who was loyal to his country, we have generals who are loyal to Bush.

[izzybeans]

4. I'd like to think they don't deserve...

that much credit. It seems too much of an "intelligent design". Saying all this is done by plan gives them too much credit. I think. But, then again...

[Q]

6. Perhaps...but history shows that the last remaining obstacle...

...to the corporate takeover of America are the liberals, progressives and populists of the Democratic and third parties. The Corporate Masters and their Media don't have to worry about third parties because most Americans can't think outside of the two-party box. It's the 'radicals' and activists in the Democratic party that they're after. They won't stop until the Dem party looks and acts exactly like the Bush GOP.

[Q]

5. I understand...but I don't want the Democrats to be part of it...

...or make it easier for them.

My main concern: why is the Democratic party supporting the invasion and occupation of Iraq...KNOWING that it's all based on a lie? Why the silence about the tens of thousands of Iraqis slaughtered in the name of democracy and freedom? Why do they continue to vote to fund this disgrace?

Democrats know that the 'war on terrorism' is just a front for corporate war profiteering. Why must we continue to live this lie?

[Stinky The Clown]

13. I'm not so sure but we may yet have our Smedley Butler

The military is not terribly enamoured of Chimpus Khan's regime. To be sure the current public face of the military is on his side (CJCS Myers). I rather think the remarkably vocal anti-Khan retired military brass is more reflective of where the military really is.

[Q]

7. We can no longer afford to think that Bush doesn't have the power...

...or support from enough Democrats to turn Social Security over to Wall Street or make abortion illegal. He is already DIRECTLY FUNDING THE CHURCH with tax dollars. He's plundering our treasury and natural resources to enrich his corporate backers and defunding public education and social services.

He'll be able to do all of these things and more because certain Democrats with the same goals are working with him in the guise of 'compromise'.

[moggie12]

16. I agree with you on SS

If the Dems don't pull out all the stops and fight Bush on his SS plan, they are selling us down the river. I get the sense most see this as a do-or-die issue thankfully (and a lot of Republicans look a little queasy about it, too)

[Q]

24. Social Security: an important issue that can't be compromised away.

...but recent history and votes from a number of Democrats shows that they either don't care what Democrats think or they've completely sold out to the other side.

If Democrats can't defend and protect an essential social safety net like Social Security...then they should pack their bags of lobbyist cash and go home.

[Skidmore]

8. You're correct--they just don't get it. Or, they do and

are active participants in it now because they have vested interests. More and more, I'm inclined to believe the latter, not that they are simply naive.

[Q]

9. Democrats have to become better informed...

...about the collaboration between the Neocon right and the Neodem left. It's essential that they understand the forces working against them and their party.

I believe there ARE Democratic leaders who are simply naive. One of them was Tom Daschle. He was convinced by the Neodems that he must embrace the Bush Doctrine or risk losing everything. But he lost anyway after taking the advice of those who wanted to replace him with a corporate friendly clone.

We can't take America back for the people until we take back our party for Democrats.

[Bouncy Ball]

10. Apparently he's hell bent on destroying the

republican party, too.

[Q]

11. Republicans obviously don't think that way...

...since record numbers turned out to vote for him. Of course he's destroying the last remnants of the 'old' Republican party where true conservatives had a voice. But he's building a new party that will stand unopposed and unaccountable to the people.

[moggie12]

17. Do you think it will last after Bush?

What's going on in the Republican Party these days is fascinating. I'm wondering if non-nuts like McCain or Chuck Hagel have a chance of ever taking it back.

[Q]

25. Bush is the point man for the PNAC and Neocons that...

...took control of our government after a 'bloodless coup'. Yes...it will live on after Bush because they have installed operatives in every branch of federal and state governments.

McCain may not be a 'nut' like many of the Neocons...but he's no better than Bush in that he'll kiss any butt that needs to be kissed to advance his career and the GOP stranglehold on power.

[Cats Against Frist]

12. Thank you for your post

You're exactly right. They intend to finish not just the "Democratic Party," but lots of its tenets, as well, namely multiculturalism and the strain of philosophy handed down by Rousseau to Thomas Jefferson and the Anti-Federalists -- which is DIRECTLY responsible for our Bill of Rights, for which the GOP has shown feverent contempt.

This is why, Q, I have become a libertarian (left-wing libertarian). Technically, it's what Thomas Jefferson WAS, and I believe that this is the future. As you've said, they're attempting to finish off old-school conservatives, as well. There needs to be a coalition of Moderate Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, Naderites and Liberals in the Democratic party. I think that's about the only thing that will stop them. You don't go completely manipulate the English language if you plan to go about "business as usual." The elitist, intellectual right wing and the philosophers of the Religious (especially Catholic) hard right have a distinct agenda -- and yes -- they are trying to finish the job that they've started many times, earlier, and that they've been pissed off about for, well, centuries. They hate modernity and its children: the Enlightenment, the Scientific Method, Objectivity, etc. -- because it killed both God and the idea of a deserving "nobility."

Anyway, I do go on. This is nothing new -- "eternal return" and all -- part of our basic make-up as humans.

[Q]

23. I believe the DLC and the DNC are going to be shocked...

...when they finally realize how many have left the party in disgust after the pitiful display of lack of leadership since the 2000 fiasco. Some of the leadership doesn't even seem to care that their concessions to the Right means losing more of the Democratic base.

I submit that 2008 will be the real test of whether the Neocons and Neodems have been able to fool most of the people all of the time. They'll no longer be able to use the ABB rationale to convince Democrats to vote against their own interests.

[mattclearing]

14. Thanks. Any DLC'ers wanna take the bait? Nah, I didn't think so.

Thanks for this.

This is dead-on accurate, and the sooner people wake up, the better a chance we have to save this party before it's completely annihilated at every level of government.

[moggie12]

15. Don't fight with DLC on Fraud Issue, fight with them on two biggies

Okay, let me get this first part out of the way quick: I don't think the DLC or anybody else who's against formally challenging the vote on Jan 6th is "against" investigating what happened in Ohio or reforming the election system. Speaking for myself, I very much want to do both. What I don't want, however, is people getting overwrought and seeing "a conspiracy" behind the Party and its Senators in terms of them not formally challenging the vote on January 6th. I think the Party doesn't want to do this because a) although there are highly suspicious patterns of electoral abuse in Ohio, we don't have "smoking gun" proof, i.e., proof that "x" number of specific votes were destroyed, changed, etc.,and, b) Bush got almost 4 million more popular votes nationwide so making an Electoral College fight concerning Ohio would bring about a public opinion bloodbath. I would not have any problem whatsoever with the bloodbath part IF we had the "smoking gun" proof: I want the Dems to fight harder than they've been doing, but when they do it, I want them to be on very firm ground. Pointing to despicable actions is different than pointing to illegal actions that will hold up under scrutiny.

I would rather everybody spent their time and energy "fighting" the DLC on the two really big issues: The DLC's "war on terror" stance (Peter Beinart's recent articulation of this in the New Republic was absurd) and economic matters (It drives me crazy when the centrists warn everybody to stay away from "class warfare" -- why the heck are we Democrats if we're not going to talk about the rich people always trying to grab everybody's money??!! The DLC is too beholden to Wall Street, especially on issues like stock option expensing, unlimited dividend tax exclusions, etc.)

That said, I don't think it's helpful to characterize the DLC as "pretend to be on our side while working to undermine our resolve and divide us into factions". It sounds kind of conspiratorial, like they're involved in some kind of evil plot, especially when you lump them in with those "intent on destroying the last remaining opposition to the Bush Family Empire".

Instead, I think there are some legitimate philosophical issues that divide centrists and liberals. I would like the sides to discuss them and see if they can resolve them. For example, while I personally don't like the DLC's "soft" stance on Wall Street abuses, I also don't like some liberals' reflexive anti-corporate stance either (i.e., seeing business and corporations as automatically "evil") -- was it Churchill who said something like "capitalism is the worst economic system there is, except when compared to all the others". So, what I'm trying to say is, please don't brush the DLC and "Centrists" in general with a broad stroke. I honestly believe there is no "enemy within", just people with different viewpoints --I think it would be wonderful if there was some way for both sides to sit down and hash them out in an open-minded way. I have no idea what forum this could occur in, however. I get the impression that this kind of intellectual give-and-take is not occurring within the DNC (but then again, I can't figure out what is going on within the DNC as they search for a new Chair). So far, all I've seen is articles in TNR and the Nation and they sounded pretty combative. That, I think, is a damn shame. If we're fighting among ourselves in an ugly instead of an intelligent, open-minded way, we're going to do exactly what you were warning us about: Lose again in 2008.

[Q]

18. You can't ask for a...

...sincere debate when you start off stereotyping liberals as reflexively 'anti-corporate'.

That said...it's clear that corporations want more than to make a profit. They practically run our government and control our election process. They want to rape and pillage America's and the world's natural resources and not be responsible for cleaning up their messes, paying a fair price for those resources or paying a living wage. They give fistfuls of cash to our candidates...expecting and usually getting something in return...like legislation and laws that benefit their industries. They want the 'rights' of a citizen but not the responsibility.

It's more complicated than a simple difference of opinion between liberals and the DLC. They support many of Bush's policies and assist in neutralizing his enemies. They accuse liberals and others of not supporting a war on terrorism because they're against the unnecessary and illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. They are Bush* enablers who generally side with him against Democratic principles and values.

And it's not ONLY about their campaign to silence those who want election reform. They did the same in 2000 when it was proven beyond a doubt that there was widespread election fraud and civil rights abuses. They are the Grima Wormtongues of the party and they need to be exposed before we can move forward.

[moggie12]

19. You're right

Yep, I fell into stereotyping, didn't I? I tried to say "some liberals" in regard to the "anti-corporate" thing, but I suppose it does come out the same way.

And your point is well taken: The DLC has gone too far in appeasing the right wing. The divide between the centrist and progressive wings of the Party is getting worse and worse. It's pretty depressing, actually and probably well past the point of being able to "hash things out", like I was suggesting. At this point, I'd rather just finally have that famous "struggle for the soul of the Party" everybody's been avoiding for so long even if it does mean the Party breaks in two.

[Q]

20. I think you'll find that many Liberals and Progressives...

...are well-informed about corporations. For instance...they're quite aware that many US corporations avoid paying taxes and other responsibilities by opening a front office in the Cayman Islands and other places. They know that most corporations pay little or no taxes and Bush's recent tax cuts were meant as payback for them helping him buy his way back into office.

The DLC does more than 'appease' the RWing. They actually work with them to achieve specific goals. The DLC supports the PNAC Bush Doctrine of aggressive wars...fought out of the phony front of the war on terror. The Neocons and Neodems have another thing in common: they know there isn't a 'war on terror'...just a scam for empire building and war profiteering.

[DaveinMD]

21. it was outlined in that Memo

written by Norquist. This is life and death.

[Q]

22. Some Democrats consider this a 'conspiracy theory'...

...and seem to think that democracy will be the stablizing force that brings everything back into balance. But Bush* and his enablers are setting precedents that have virtually eliminated the required checks and balances of the Constitution. Also gone is the 'separate but equal' branches of government...every branch now rubber stamping the Bush agenda.

The Bushies have taken power not granted them by the Constitution. We're inundated with feel good rhetoric from both parties telling us not to worry about the Patriot Act or about a war in Iraq that has nothing to do with the war on terrorism.

This IS life and death. If only more Americans would realize it we could stop this dictatorship and their enablers in their tracks.

[jswordy]

26. Bush intends to destroy your party and legacy.

NO SH*T????

ROFL

[Q]

27. It's not as obvious to many Democrats...

...as it seems to you. They seem to think that all we have to do is elect a Dem president and everything will be okay. Or that Bush is simply a misguided president getting bad advice. Or that he's too stupid to understand the implications of his policies.

More than a few Democrats don't know that the takeover of our government and the neutralizing of the Dem party has been in the planning stages for decades. All they needed was the 'trifecta' of controlling the White House, Senate and Congress for them to finally put the plan into play.

They have more in mind than just winning elections. They intend to destroy every program and policy the Democrats have put in place for the people and replace it with a privatized, corporate version.

[jswordy]

41. I don't know whether to LOL about yer post or what!

I mean, that's the way things work! If you are a bunch of LOSERS, as our party is now, then yer agenda gets wiped off the map. And there is little you can do about it.

Had we WON bigtime instead of lost our asses, we would be swaggering around and trying to wipe THEIR AGENDA off the map.

The victors write the histories. That old saw is applicable in a lot of places. And a lot of ways. To a lot of situations.

Uh, like right now!

(shrug)

So what's not to get?

[DaedelusNemo]

52. Most voters don't get it - think Bush is preserving SS, for ex. /nt

[GOPBasher]

28. He's trying and succeeding.

The Democratic party and the United States of America will not be the same in four years. I hope by then we'll still have time to bring it back.

[SlingBlade]

29. Help !

I have not been involved in politics quite that long.
I’ve consistently voted since age 18, I’m 25 now with a family and two small children.
Living here in Illinois you would think that I’d be content with the fact that the majority of us rejected Bush and his gang of thieves.

But from Illinois also comes Fat Denny Hastert and some of the most vile and evil propaganda seen in the whole of the United States.
After the election the utter disappointment I felt along with so many others caused me to just walk away for a time, Even from my local message board where I’d cultivated quite a few friendships with like minded individuals.

I see the fight continue here on Democratic Underground but in our case the local discussion boards have become so totally obnoxious that I’ve given up after just one return visit without posting since the elections.

I know and understand the importance of staying involved locally, But I am just unable to continue in light of the fascist who have taken control of it, Even declaring that: “No further discussion is necessary, You lost ,That's what counts not your so called truths”

And this is allowed obviously since not a word in response from the left has been posted.
I’m young I realize, But if any of you more seasoned and battle hardened members from the left can give me some direction, Some hope that this is only a temporary ebb in the flow, I would truly appreciate it.

The left has been decimated here, I am only one man.
If you read the posting for instance in the Iraq War Section you will understand what I mean.
http://cf.rrstar.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=14&threadid=4492

Where do we go from here ?

[Q]

38. All of us must learn...

...to think in terms of being Americans instead of Democrats or Republicans. Both parties encourage their faithful to attack the other side and not pay attention to what their own party is doing. For example...we're suppose to attack Bush (and rightfully so) for starting an (unnecessary war) based on lies...but we're NOT supposed to complain or even talk about the fact that Bush was able to do it because so many Democrats supported it.

Republicans and Democrats alike are being manipulated into attacking the other side and encouraged to ignore their own party's wrongdoing and failures. In other words...no one in government is held accountable or responsible if both parties believe their party can do no wrong.

The fascists won't remove themselves. It's up to the loyal opposition to do it. If the current Dem leaders refuse to do it...it's up to us to replace the leadership and vote for those who will.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlingBlade]

33. Thanks Moderator

I am so sick of these freepers !

[ElectroPrincess]

34. I'd bet big bucks that you listen to either Sean Hanity or Rush Limbaugh?

Nobody else in the republican party is as concise with their talking points "of delusional hate." I regret that you are not seeking out many news sources other than talk radio and FOX cable. :(

On edit: Oh darn, he's history. ;)

[SlingBlade]

35. I wish they would do that here where I live

Good Ridden’s Freeper Boy !

[CWebster]

36. Why worry about Bush

When the Democrats believe that running to the right of him is the winning strategy?

[wadestock]

37. There won't be a repeat in 2008

1. The economy will suffer considerably more from the debt and pushing money to the top, outsourcing and all the other wonderful corrupt business practices this administration adorns.

Interest payments on the debt are projected to be considerably above the 8% last year. Within 2 to 3 years you will be paying up to 20% out of your tax dollar on YEARLY INTEREST payments on the debt.

2. The Iraq War is unwinnable. There will be no Sunni/Shia reconciliation which brings about any peace. It is an inherent can of worms. Investment in the war by 2008 will have exceeded 500B and death tolls at over 3000 will negate the historic edge of the "the incombent" during war time. 911 and people being largely in a mass psychosis was the problem this go around, but they should wake up enough by 2008 to get over this funk.

The party in general has to establish cohesion. The senators didn't back Kerry as a whole and unless there is a strong party commaraderie which starts soon and looks to the future, we'll be out of the house and senate again. But the presidency is most assuredly going to go Democrat.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

46. I think you should base your decision

on the discussions. I use an upside down flag because I believe our country is in distress - I think that is more or less why most of us are using that symbol.

There are quite a few "Democratic-Socialists" or people who lean that way.

There may be a few communists about too - most people around here would not be scared off by that.

[bloom]

47. Here's a discussion and link about Democratic Socialists...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2900006

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Geek_Girl]

40. What I'd like to understand is How does the DLC

Maintains control over the platform? How do they get a Senator like John Kerry, who protested the Vietnam War, and voted against the first gulf war, to give Bush the authority to invade Iraq?

Why are these politicians listening and following the DLC platform?

[Zenlitened]

43. That's the million-dollar question for me, too.

How do they exert such control?

[CWebster]

45. Because they came to prominance under Clinton

and grabbed the reins of power:

http://www.progressive.org/nich1000.htm

They,like the Clintons continue a stranglehold on party identity- unwilling for reasons of power,ego and lack of glowing historical legacy from graciously exiting stage left.

Sadly, their perception seems to be that a new politic ushering in a new era, diminishes their own standing.

Would they see the Country fall instead?

[moggie12]

50. DLC doesn't "exert control" in the way imagined

Here's my take: Dems were scrambling/confused after two huge Reagan victories and Bush I win and along comes Clinton who wins with a "centrist" message. Everybody starts thinking Clinton's centrist position is better than getting clobbered a la McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis. The DLC viewpoint gets a lot of "respect and attention" just because of this.

Iraq was a special case though. Everybody thought we were going to get "bogged down" in Afghanistan but the initial result of the invasion was an "easy" victory. On top of giving Bush a "glow of success", many thoughtful leaders, including Kerry, were on the record as wanting to make Saddam comply with inspections. I think a lot of Democrats went along with the Irag resolution in the hopes that Bush's tough stand would make Saddam toe the line. Well, you know the rest.

I personally don't fault Kerry and the other for voting for the resolution but I do fault them for not screaming their heads off when it became clear Bush was going to invade no matter what.

My two cents for what it's worth.

[Q]

51. That question...

...has many answers. You could start off by doing a web search on "DLC" or DLC and Clinton. That should give you enough reading material for the next few days.

One could also answer that question by asking how the Neocons and religious Right maintains control over the GOP platform? The most basic answer is: a combination of power, money and influence. The think tanks and corporate lobbyists seem to be running both parties.

It surprised many Democrats when Kerry went before business groups and insisted he wasn't a 'redistributionist' and intimated that he was ignoring the base of the party because he expected their votes. If you've read anything about the DLC...this was most definitely their advice.

Clinton essentially 'created' the DLC based on what they call the 'third way'. It's touted as something between liberalism and conservatism...but it's really a way to play both sides at the same time. Kind of a con game where both sides are promised a share of the loot if the DLCer attains office.

[bloom]

42. Yesterday - on NBC - the Today show

Nancy Pelosi was being interviewed and so I was watching and it seemed like the interview was going Ok. And then the interviewer made some comment/question suggesting the Dems had no credibility with the American people. It seemed like the idea was to plant that idea in people's heads.

It wouldn't surprise me if that's the Rove meme they'll have the MSM saying in various ways. (Maybe they already are. I don't watch much of it).

[Niche]

48. F*ck * ! F*ck DLC!

[Pepperbelly]

53. Bullshit, Q! He's dead set on destroying AMERICA. nt

[Q]

54. True...but first he has to destroy those who stand in the way...

...of his plan to destroy America. There are still too many Democrats/Liberals/Progressives/Populist activists doing nasty things like telling the truth in the alternative media. He and his cronies never counted on the internet providing a counter-balance for the corporate 'mainstream' media.

There are several ways he could quicken the pace of the destruction of the opposition. One is have operatives infiltrate the Democratic party and conquer and divide. Another would be for another "911" to happen and the current state of national emergency escalated to martial law.

At least half of America thinks he's a wannabe brutal dictator trying to rule America with an Iron Fist. He has to find a way to neutralize them and those pesky activists before he can take full control. And it looks like he isn't very far away from that goal.