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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 01:39 PM
Original message
Alberto Gonzales versus Bobby Sands
Alberto Gonzales: When Irish Eyes Aren't Smiling
The US Senate begins confirmation hearings for Alberto Gonzales today. President Bush has nominated Gonzales to replace Attorney General John Ashcroft as the head of the Department of Justice. Senate democrats are expected to question Gonzales, who is Bush's White House counsel, on his role in a series of communications with the the Justice Department on internment and torture in the "war on terror." Republicans are confident that the democrats will not stop Gonzales from being confirmed, because doing so could offend Hispanic voters.

It is rumored that President Bush will nominate Gonzales to serve on the US Supreme Court in 2006. Again, they believe they will get him by democrats in an election year, because no politician will dare to offend the Hispanic voting block. This thinking ignores another ethnic voting block that is taking interest in Gonzales' advocating policies of internment and torture. Irish Americans have a history with the tactics of internment and torture, most recently in Northern Ireland. Some of it may be of interest to the American public, and it may sound very familiar.

Much of this information comes from books by Irish author Tim Pat Coogan. He has a series of books on Irish history. For this essay, I will use his books "The IRA" and "The Troubles: Ireland's Ordeal 1966-1996 and the Search for Peace" as sources. I strongly recommend his books to anyone interested in the politics of Ireland.

In the late 1960s and early '70s, there was a growing "civil rights" movement in Northern Ireland. This movement was influenced by the civil rights movement in the United States. The Catholics in Northern Ireland were as oppressed a people as either the African American or Native Americans in the United States. Not surprisingly, the Irish movement resembled those of the blacks and Indians in the US in the 1960s.

It is important to remember that Northern Ireland was no more of a country than Iraq. Both were "created" at about the same time by England. Both were attempts by the British government to secure access to the natural resources of foreign lands for the decaying "British Empire."

As the civil rights movement gained strength, the Protestant population in Northern Ireland began systematic intimidation of the Catholic neighborhoods. In response, the Catholics began to organize groups similar to the Black Panthers and American Indian Movement (AIM) in the USA. The best known of these was the Irish Republican Army (IRA), a group with historic roots in all of Ireland. Then, as violence between the Catholics and Protestants escalated, the British introduced more troops as "peace-keepers" in Northern Ireland.

The British military became convinced that most of the IRA support was "imported" from the Irish Free State. Thus, they began a crackdown on the borders, and on Catholic neighborhoods in the communities experiencing unrest. Coogan describes how "the British Army was the IRA's best recruiting agent. The saturation was such that at one stage there were 2,000 soldiers billeted in Paddy Devlin's Belfast consituency alone, one to every ten voters. On a specimen Saturday night Devlin counted thirty army vehicles in the district. Soldiers moved along in groups of twenty or more, dispersed on both sides of the street, guns at the ready." (The Troubles; page 137)

Paddy Devlin himself describes the British military's tactics: "I was downright angry at the mindless harassment, degrading obstruction and casual brutality the soldiers meted out to all who came in their path. I spent hours boiling over in anger and frustration, incoherent with rage, complaining to arrogant, overbearing British officers who failed to see the damage they were doing, the way they were walking into the trap the ruthless Provos had laid for them and how they were only acting as recruitment sergeants for the Provos." (ibid)

Devlin then identifies the single factor (the quality of military intelligence) that plunged Northern Ireland into an anarchy that resembles the Iraq that Bush created: "They failed to understand that many families shared common surnames, but were not related .... they arrested fathers when they wanted the sons and the sons when they were after the fathers. Innocent teenage boys and old men thus found themselves held at the point of a British rifle, and many of the people I dealt with then were so alienated by the experience that they joined the Provos and later became notorious terrorists." (ibid)

As the conflict intensified, it became obvious to the British military that the IRA had grown in strength in Northern Ireland. It was no longer possible to pretend that infiltraters from the Irish Free State were the cause of all the troubles. The sealing of the borders, curfews, and raids were no longer keeping the Catholics docile. Hence, a committee known as GEN 42 began to meet at Downing Street in England to decide on new tactics to combat the rise in Catholic nationalism.

The new strategy was called the "toothpaste policy": the British military would squeeze the Catholic community until they vomited out the IRA. It would focus more on those in the community who promoted "revolutionary" ideas, rather than those who committed the acts of terrorism. The idea was to "dry up" the ocean of Catholic water in which the radicals swam. They would call these tactics a "sustained opposition to terrorism," which served as a code for internment without trial, and torture to force "confessions."

The British had "plans for the systematic employment of torture against detainees. This policy had its origins in earlier British experience, in theatres such as Aden, Cyprus, Kenya, and in the brainwashing techniques employed against American and British servicemen in Korea. These were subsequently adopted by the British Army against EOKA during the Cyprus campaign. This type of expertise was unknown in the RUC and the British had to set up a special team of instructors to train the RUC Special Branch. The nature and extent of these preparations were both fully understood and sanctioned by the proper authorities within the Ministry of Defence, British intelligence and the upper echelons" of the British government, Coogan writes. (The Troubles; page 149)

The fact that this plan was not a new policy for the British is indicated by the fact that they not only had specific lists of Irish Catholics to be interned and tortured, but they had four sites already prepared for this operation. Known as "Operation Demetrius," these actions were never as successful as they were brutal. They started with a "trial run" that netted 48 suspects; this gave a two week warning to those who were actually involved in terrorist activity.

Next, when the British intelligence attempted to round up 450 suspects, they were only able to find 350 "targets." Because the actual terrorists were safely hidden "underground," those gathered up included people never associated with the IRA, as well as many who had been active in the late 1940s, but had been "retired" for decades. Many more were guilty of nothing more than writing about freedom.

Of the 350 suspects, 104 were released within 48 hours. The secret police had simply picked up the wrong person in 104 of 350 cases, which indicates a 30% rate of very inaccurate information. Still, in their 48 hours of incarceration, each of these 104 men were subjected to severe torture.

The tortures that the Catholics interned without trial in Northern Ireland sound very similar to what Mr. Gonzales has advocated for use in Iraq. The techniques include hooding, sleep deprivation, white noise, starvation, forced standing for extended periods spreadeagled and leaning against a wall on finger-tips, and sexual humiliation and torture. Men were kicked in the testicles, and raped with batons. Some were forced to run on broken glass bare-footed.

Coogan writes: "These techniques were accompanied by continual harassment, blows, insults, questioning. This treatment usually went on for six and seven days. It produced acute anxiety states, personality changes, depression and, sometimes, an early death. I spoke to a psychiatrist who had the thankless task of trying to rehabilitate some of the interrogation victims (at the behest of the British Government), and he told me that they were 'broken men', most of whom did not survive into their fifties." (The Troubles; page 150)

The community outrage was such that the British were forced to set up a committee to investigate the abuses. Known as the Compton Inquiry, it gave new meaning to the term "white-wash" when it determined the victims were subjected to "ill treatment," but not "brutality." After a human rights commission concluded the Irish were severely tortured, the case was sent to the European Court of Human Rights. After being dragged out for two years, the ECHR concluded there was no systematic torture. While a few low-ranking individuals ma have crossed the line, they found the policy avoided torture, and merely included "inhumane and degrading treatment."

It is interesting to note that during this period, the IRA enjoyed the most wide-spread support it ever had in Northern Ireland. As a result, there was a terrible increase in explosive violence that killed and maimed far too many people. Young and old, male and female, Catholic and Protestant, Irish and English, hundreds of people -- most of them innocent of any crime -- died in the reign of terror that resembles today's Iraq.

And so today, as Alberto Gonzales is questioned by the Senate, Irish Americans will recognize what type of man he is. We know exactly what he represents.


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ovid; Remedia Amoris,91
"Principiis obsta; sero medicina parature
Cum mala per longas convaluere moras."


{Stop it at the start, it's late for medicine to be prepared
when disease has grown strong through long delay.}
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mohinoaklawnillinois Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. While I'm not a fan of Tim Pat Coogan's, what you basically
posted is true.

My husband and many of his friends were interned or imprisoned by the Brits using the Diplock courts in Northern Ireland in the 1970's.

He was at home this morning for a while and since I had the television tuned into C-Span he watched part of the Gonzalez hearing. All he could do was shake his head and say: "You Yanks learned your lessons well from the Brits". Pretty sad commentary on the state of Justice in the US, isn't it?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I believe that
the policy & procedures used by US MI in Iraq and on the military base in Cuba are based entirely upon the British model from Northern Ireland in the 1970s.

Regarding Coogan: I have no opinion of him as an individual. As an author, he writes some of the most boring books that I've ever read. However, they are filled with important information. Again, I have no real opinion about his beliefs. I think he has attempted to document an important, far too often overlooked chapter of human rights abuses in world history.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I lived in England in the 70's & as a 8 year old I remember
having the realization that the British Army or Government must of done something terrible to make these people (IRA) so Violent & Determined.

It wasn't until I came to Canada that I learned exactly what the British Army & Intelligence Services were doing in Ireland.

I have seen the horrific aftermath of an IRA bomb as unedited raw news footage on English television. It was beyond horrific & I have read
& heard accounts of what the British Army did to suspected IRA members & sympathizers. There is blood of innocents on everyones hands in the Irish conflict.

IMO
The British Government through it's Armed forces were committing acts of violence & torture in Ireland as State Policy it was something they chose to do.

The IRA was turning to violence out of desperation & necessity.

Torture as State Policy is the sign of a weak & desperate Government.
The appointment of Gonzales as AG will be one of the darkest days in Americas short history.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Interesting.
I'm an advocate of non-violence; however, I understand and appreciate the right of self-defense. I also think that if the British attempted to maintain an economic control over the "13 Colonies," and treated US citizens in the manner that Catholics have been treated in Northern Ireland, there would be violence.

My favorite president, JFK, once said something to the effect that those who make peaceful change impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. It was a shame that the attempts to create change through non-violent means was crushed in the streets of Northern Ireland at the same time that the policies of internment and torture were put in place.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Wise words
"those who make peaceful change impossible, make violent revolution inevitable"
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. America wasn't established by men who sucked up to the system
and turned a blind eye to its own atrocities and corruptions and the brutalizing of individuals. It wasn't formed by men who feared enough to torture, or would trade liberty for security. It hasn't been a land of genocidal sociopathic machiavellians. America held firm to a unique promise and noble ideals and embraced none of these vices in its glory days. America has slid into the sway of a slim majority that is eagerly embracing all of them. It's in the fan. America stands up now, or dies.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Julius Caesar, Act II
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream.

- Shakespeare
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Powerful
drama.

Shakespeare noticed the same world, but delineated the articulations through an unmatched and unimaginable utility, in an indisputably marvelous way.

Who else has mastered words?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. the old Irish poets ......
One of my grandfathers was a hedge master in Limerick in the late 1700s. He joined the United Irishmen, and took part in the Uprising of 1798. While waiting to be hung, he wrote the following poem about the horrors of the British-imposed penal system. The poem was sent out, pasted to the bottom of a plate with a potato paste.


"What shall I suffer walking up and down this dismal place from light to light, with no companion but a man who (three times flogged) lies dying in a corner, a still breathing corpse; and legions of rats of all ages, which have forgotten the timidity of their species, and lord it here with hereditary sway:

Hail! solitude, all gloomy horrors, hail!
For Truth has led me to thy dismal shrine,
In her bright face, all earthly glories pale;
Thy darkest den is filled with light divine.
What shall I suffer?
After this, nothing.

There were three happy fellows on every lamp on the bridge, as I was crossing here; the lantern hoops were breaking; so I must wait till some kind friend drops off. They nearly took up (or occupied) all the little footpath, and the toes of some of them were touching it.

As I passed, I thought what a splendid and economical plan for lamp-lighting; for by its piercing rays the whole earth could see into the dark hearts of a distant people, and follow its each individual to the world's end while he carried one grain of pride. In the glory of such bright eternal light, who would not wish to burn? Not Typhus, not Smallpox. No! No!"

The poem is housed today in the Royal Irish Academy with a number of his manuscripts.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. Now you know how it drives me wild when you quote Shakespeare
dear brother. :loveya: I was looking for an Irish poem I remembered about tyranny and found this:

Bleed, bleed, poor country!
Great tyranny! lay thou thy basis sure,
For goodness dare not check thee: wear thou thy wrongs;
The title is affeer'd! Fare thee well, lord:
I would not be the villain that thou think'st
For the whole space that's in the tyrant's grasp,
And the rich East to boot.

Fit to govern!
No, not to live. O nation miserable,
With an untitled tyrant bloody-scepter'd,
When shalt thou see thy wholesome days again,
Since that the truest issue of thy throne
By his own interdiction stands accursed,
And does blaspheme his breed?

Excerpted from William Shakespeare’s Macbeth Act IV, scene III, Macduff speaking
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. "To be ....
.... or not to be."

Now, how's that?
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. That's a damn good question
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep--
No more--and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep--
To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprise of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action. -- Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia! -- Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered.
William Shakespeare
Hamlet Act III, Scene I


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The question of our day ....
in fact, is that which Bill asked. Do we suffer peacefully? Quietly? Or do we take up "arms," which in our present culture mean those tools described by the Bill of Rights, and by opposing this sea of troubles, bring it to a conclusion.

As we discussed earlier -- I believe in a series of e-mails -- this is what faced our friend John Kerry once he had won the democratic nomination. And, regardless of if one believes Kerry actually won or lost the election, I think we can agree that he waited too long .... for example, when the "veterans" assaulted his honor .... when the situation required a far more firm response.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Yeah, the big woosie
Our guy Clark should have been the nominee. He was tougher and quicker to respond.

C'est la vie.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I remember telling
one of my associates, an elderly Lakota woman, that Kerry was going to beat Bush. I said it will be close, but Kerry will win. And she said yes, you are right. Kerry will beat Bush in the election. But the powers behind the curtain are already prepared, and are not going to allow it to happen. The computers will be "fixed" in a couple of key places, and Bush will remain in power.... because the entire contest would be about power, and those with their hands on the reins of power would not willingly hand them over.

Clark also represents power. Much like some of the other democratic candidates, he represents a different kind of power. Howard Dean is power. Rev. Al began to mature and become powerful. Dennis K was pointing towards another source of power. I think that John Edwards had some real power, until he accepted the VP position (although I surely was in favor of him for VP), and then it was drained from his being. It didn't grow properly, because it was not cultivated properly.

Similarly, we retain a significant potential for power. We have two choices: we can ignore it, and fail to cultivate and nourish it, and it will wilt on the vine; or we can begin to grasp that real power comes in many forms, most of them being unrecognizeable to moral misfits in the current administration.

If Clark had been elected, or Dean, or Kerry ..... they could not have transformed our nation by decree from the White House. They could not have transformed our communities by a bill introduced in congress. They could not have transformed our lives with a state of the union address.

But we can. We can do each one of these. We can transform our nation by transforming our communities by transforming ourselves. We are more powerful than WMDs when we find unity. And we find unity in finding our common interests. And even in identifying our common enemy.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
40. well said. eom
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Ten Men Dead
is a must read regarding Bobby Sands and the other hunger strikers. What they did was inspiring to me.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'll have to read it.
One of my relatives traveled back and forth on occasion, and knew Bobby. He gave me a copy of "Rhyme of Tyme," a wonderful poem/song that Bobby wrote while he was in prison. Are you familiar with it?
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. no I'm not familiar with it
I've read alot on the struggle for Irish freedom. The hunger strikers were incredibly courageous.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I should be able to locate it
sometime in the next 24 hours.

The hunger-strikers were very brave. I think that the tactics of non-violent protest will soon be recognized as necessary in the United States. Gandhi power!
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'll always believe
that Margaret Thatcher is a war criminal for her actions in Northern Ireland.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Very much so.
I found her to be one of the most repulsive world leaders. A few years back, I thought Tony Blair was progressive. What a disappointment.
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Blair is his country's LBJ
he's been good on domestic politics, horrible on war. And completely blew the good friday agreement. What a damn turncoat.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I had hoped
that Blair might serve as something like a voice of conscience in his dealings with Bush. It is strange how far he has been willing to go along with the invasion of Iraq.

Your comparison is interesting. I think that LBJ would be remembered as one of the six best presidents in US history, had it not been for Viet Nam. I think that both liberal and conservative Americans would have viewed him in a positive light. Further, LBJ might have made progress in Viet Nam if he had grasped the early opportunities to bargain with the "enemy."

Opportunity knocks but once. Another opportunity may come along that looks, smells, and even tastes like a previously missed opportunity, but it is never the same. Just as LBJ might have changed the reckless and violent course of American history in 1965 and '66, Blair had an opportunity some 38 years later. But he missed it.
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Blair
missed opportunity to rein in Bush and also blew the chance to make peace in NI. Instead, he gave in to the unionist veto and now he has Paisley to deal with. Not a good situation.
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mohinoaklawnillinois Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Oh yes, the "good" Rev. Ian Paisley.
Now he's a real good example of "Christian" values isn't he and his son Ian, Jr. is just as bad!

BTW, someone posted on DU about six weeks ago that the Rev. Paisley was invited to *'s coronation. Ain't that a hoot!!!!
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. doesn't surprise me
Bush completely torpedoed the NI peace process.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Bush doesn't believe in it.
For all of his talk about "democracy" and "freedom," they are concepts that he does not actually believe in. If Ian Paisley lived in the United States, he'd be in the administration. Bush's belief system is very similat to Rev. Paisley's.
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. no doubt
and now they are pushing to pass an extradition treaty with the Brits that strips the rights of the accused to any day in an American Court.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The Irish Echo
has great reports on these points in almost every issue. It's one of the best sources of information in the country.
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bluedonkey Donating Member (644 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. Ian Paisley indeed
I used to listen to this song all the time and always with a smile.Rev Pailey what an ass!

The Battle Of Stormont
Colum Sands

Now you've read in the pages of history
Of great battles that were fought in the past
But I sing of a battle more recent
That took place in the town of Belfast
There's a big house they call Stormont Castle
And that's where the action was seen
When an army of professors and preachers
Took on the great strength of the Queen

Now the soldiers all sat round a table
And pretended they were good friends
But if soldiers make money by fighting
When peace comes their money will end

So the general who was also a preacher
(Reverend Ian!)
Felt his round collar hurting his neck
So he jumped to his feet with an almighty roar
And that was the sign for attack

His chief gunner was also a professor
So he knew he would make a sure hit
As he bravely jumped onto a table
And let fly from his mouth a big shit

Poor Brian was seriously wounded
But he still had the nerve not to quit
As he lay in a pool of saliva
Saying, Thank God it was only a spit

Then the Queen's army moved into action
As so often before in the street
And after two hours of persuasion
The enemy had to retreat

While the SLDP and Alliance
They all sat at ease in the rear
And when they saw they had no one to fight with
They killed time drinking whiskey and beer

Now a battle has only one winner
And my winner was Eileen Paisley
(that's the Reverend's wife!)
As soon as her husband went out through the door
She sat down on Bob Cooper's knee (The author can't remember why.)

And that is the end of my story
And I'm sure that we'll all understand
That while we have mad politicians
We'll never have peace in our land

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mohinoaklawnillinois Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Brilliant song, and so, so true.
Not to be nitpicking, but the party is know as the SDLP, or as my beloved refers to it: the Stoop Down Low Party.

BTW is Colum Sands a member of the Sands Family from Mayobridge, Co. Down? They're all brilliant musicians and storytellers.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Ovid; Metamorphoses, vii, 20
"Video meliora, proboque; Deteriora sequor."

("I see the better way, and approve it; I follow the worse.")


I suspect that Blair knew right from wrong, but believed that if he compromised his belief system, his political gains would justify those actions (and inactions) in NI and with Bush.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
26. Marvelous Thread H20, However Chilling
You know I saw Lindsey Graham on Tweety last night. He who had been a part of the judge advocates office saying he had real problems with the abuse memo and he was totally against the disregard shown for the Geneva Convention. He then went on to say he was going to ask hard questions of Gonzales, really hard, and followed it up with, but I'm voting for him. Graham knew what was done at the prison was wrong, he knew this man is wrong and yet even before the hearing occurred, he had made his decision. There is a level of insanity in all of this that is hard to comprehend, and it never seems to stop, it just goes on and on, then and now. That is the only explanation I have for what happened in Ireland and what is happening here now.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. At the Senate hearings
towards the end, there was a panel of three men who fully understood what Mr. Gonzales represents within the Bush Administration. The three were: Douglas Johnson, from the Center for Victims of Torture; Adm. John Hutson (ret.) President and Dean of Franklin Pierce Law Center; and Harold Koh, a Dean of the Yale Law School who served in the Reagan and Clinton Administrations.

All three were extremely impressive, very articulate speakers. Their message was that the president has NO constitutional authority to call for torture. (There is a history of presidents going beyond the constitution in times of crisis, and calling for internment; however, even in these times, those people have the right to a hearing to determine if they fall under the Geneva Convention, or US criminal law.)

In the past, we have discussed the administration's trashing of the U.S. Constitution while on the Plame threads. Those interested can find some of this information at:

http://h2oman.blogspot.com
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
28. It does seem more and more as if "they" would like to do to the
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 02:00 AM by coeur_de_lion
Middle Class what the British government did to the Irish for centuries. As usual your essay was very poignant, articulate, and relevant. I do hope you will publish it in the Irish Echo. The Irish need sometimes to be reminded that they hate our American lawmakers and politicians, not the people.

We are beginning to go through what they did for years, and years. We will soon be referring to "the troubles" here in the U.S.

After publishing in the Irish Echo, next step is H2O Man's own visit to the Emerald Isle, postponed for far too long. Isn't it funny? We Irish once came here to escape tyranny from the British -- and now we might all have to go back there to escape tyranny from our own country.

Is there something missing from your signature line . . . . . or is the system part way down right now?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Well I do not know ....
I added it, but it doesn't show up. However, I shall type it in here:

I can be found at:

http:h2oman.blogspot.com

usually.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. I think
that some features, including sig lines, were not available then, because of all the traffic. Seems to have cleared up now, though!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Good.
I would hope that some of our like-minded people who contribute to DU will visit the h2oman blogspot, and participate in an open discussion on some of the issues covered there.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
29. Cicero, on traitors
"A nation can survive it's fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidible, for he is known and carries his banners openly.

But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself.

For the traitor appears not a traitor...He speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men.

He rots the soul of a nation...he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city...he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist.

A murderer is less to be feared."
Cicero, 42 B.C.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Good quote .....
Interesting to read while MSNBC shows "FLASH NEWS: President Bush Speaks From the White House."
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. I always learn so much by your enlightening, elevating posts, H2O Man.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 05:21 PM by calimary
You bring out the most erudite, eloquent people to your threads. If this is the "loony left," I'm settling in for a lifetime.

BTW - LOVE the Cicero quote in post #29 - thank you bobthedrummer!
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