We need to act like Republicans if we're going to win.

[Pab Sungenis]

Yesterday was the last gasp of hope for fair, honest, and legitimate elections in this nation. We lost, and the nation lost. But ALL is not lost. All we have to do is change tactics.

The media and the Republican "lawmakers" proved yesterday that no one cares about dirty tricks and election thievery, so all we have to do now is what we should have done as soon as the Republicans started pulling all this.

We need to sink to their level. In every single way.

I'm not talking about playing hardball in questioning their patriotism, commitment to the Constitution, accuse them of collaborating with the enemy, although we need to do that, too. I mean we have to do the same formerly-considered-illegal crap they've been doing.

Every state where the Democrats have won or solidified legislative majorities since 2002, we have to carve up the Congressional districts like a Christmas Turkey. We have to make Elbridge Gerry look like an honest politician. The courts ruled that Texas was right in redistricting only 2 years into a 10-year cycle, so we have a precedent. We need to make sure that all the blue states send 99% Democratic representatives to Washington.

Every state with a Democratic Secretary of State suddenly needs to find out that it has a shortage of voting machines, and act accordingly. Heavily Republican areas need to suddenly find that they're only allotted one voting machine, and people need to stand in line for up to 9 hours to cast their votes. Then, when the poll-closing time comes (oh, say, 4 PM), the doors are slammed shut and padlocked. It happened in Ohio to Democrats, and no one has ruled that it was illegal, and no Republican has argued that it was wrong. Thus, it's Okay!

Finally, we have a lot more young people in the Democratic Party, and I'm willing to bet a good chunk of them are expert computer hackers. Every black-box Diebold county where they refuse to keep a paper trail should have a young Democrat who can cover his tracks well standing by. Especially if it's a heavily Republican area where suddenly we'll find out that "the exit polls were wrong," and "people decided to vote Democratic for the first time in their lives." Suddenly, Nebraska lights up BLUE in a landslide and Chuck Hegel is forced out of office. And no one knows what happens.

No Republicans are concerned about THAT, either. They say only conspiracy theorists believe that could ever happen.

There you have it, a plan for Democratic resurgence in 2006 and 2008.

Any lurking Republicans out there? How would it feel with the shoe on the other foot? Maybe NOW you'll get behind election reform. Because let me tell you, if you DON'T guarantee us free, fair, and honest elections, we're not above sinking to your level. If you p--- in the well, don't complain when it's your turn to drink.

Support the Lautenberg and Holt bills TODAY! Three stolen elections is too many. And next time, it may not be YOU doing the stealing.

[kaitykaity]

1. /sarcasm off

eom

[Pab Sungenis]

3. Not all that sarcastic....

The Republicans have gotten away with all this because we've let them. When we tried to block those kinds of tactics, they shouted us down.

So, now they either join with us to keep another stolen election from happening, or they face the fact that we just might steal it back from them using the same tactics.

Look at how Rossi in Washington suddenly changed his tone, and THAT WAS a fair election. Maybe we need to make the Republicans worry about an election being stolen BACK from them.

[kaitykaity]

8. You don't seem to understand.

Evil like this always kills itself by going too far.
Either it infects the entire organism and the organism
dies, or the forces of healing -- the antibodies as it
were -- kill the infection.

What you are suggesting is that we help kill the organism.

That's nonsense, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
My mistake.

:eyes:

[Pab Sungenis]

10. There's no more healing to be done.

That's been proved over the last four years. The beast is dead.

[kaitykaity]

19. Are there thousands of American people dying

in the streets? No power in our cities? Gangs
roving our streets raping and killing?

Then the organism is not dead.

If we do as you suggest or fail to kill the infection
then the organism will truly die and murder and
mayhem will ensue.

It's only a matter of time.

[sendero]

2. I like...

... the way you think my friend. I've been saying this, not as well or as comprehensively, since my first day here.

Dems need to stop bringing spitwads to a knife fight. If everything is legal, we need to do everything, and if they have no shame, neither should we.

[Burma Jones]

4. Exactly Right

We also have to re-take a few state governments as well.

[xultar]

5. Nope, but we do need to be as organized. WE spend more time shooting

one another than framing our message. We have no clarity in our stances and truthfully we aren't as open and diverse as we say we are.

[Bronco69]

6. I like the way you think!

Kick! I've been saying all along that we need to fight fire with fire!

[dubyaD40web]

7. We need to start getting NASTY

Like they do!

[unblock]

9. electoral law applies only to democrats

i think we SHOULD question their patriotism, commitment to the constitution, and so on.

but the "formerly illegal" stuff is very much illegal when democrats do it. the banana republicans' control of the judges and the media mean that we have to be perfect while they get away with murder.

remember that they impeached clinton for lying about an immaterial matter in a civil case that was dismissed as frivolous. they will NAIL us for anything they can, shine a big media spotlight, and get up on their high horse and blame all election fraud on democrats.

i agree that we need to stop having qualms about engaging in some of the uglier parts of politicking, but we need to be very careful about staying within the letter of the law.

[seaj11]

11. Oh come on!

If we lower ourselves to the level of election stealing, gerrymandering, and lies, what will that do for anyone? You're willing to do as they do in order to get into power? Then what? Do we stay immoral and dishonest? Or do we say, "Just kidding!"

[Dr Fate]

12. I disagree- we dont need to be dirty, just truthfull & blunt.

We dont need to imitate Republicans, we just need to start calling them "liars & criminals" on every single solitary TV appearance and back it up with sources & dates. Then say to the journalist- wow- I do your job better than you do- you "forgot" to report that, didnt you?"

[Mist]

14. That's just it--to tell the truth about the Rethugs

and tell it long and loud, is the way to go. The truth is on our side, but it's hard getting the truth out there with the MSM being bought up by TPTB.

[LynnTheDem]

13. Not me, thanks.

Integrity.

Honor.

Honesty.

Truth.


I'm willing to die fighting for those values. I won't become what I hate just to win elections.

If the majority of Americans no longer hold such values, then our winning an election won't change anything & would be meaningless.

You either HAVE these values and LIVE by these values...or you don't. You can't just set them aside "temporarily".

[Skittles]

15. you have to be disgusting, no-conscience, low-life degenerates

to "act like republicans"; that is precisely why we don't "act like republicans"

[Pab Sungenis]

16. And that is why we "lose."

Because we DON'T act like them, and we can't keep them from acting like them.

[Skittles]

18. F*** THAT

I refuse to compromise my morals; I refuse to believe the ONLY way we can win is to "ACT LIKE THEM". Be lying, theiving, no-consience cheaters? NO THANKS.

[goclark]

17. We need to run for office and sit in on committees

and work the crowds and disrurb meetings with questions.

We need to do what they do, WORK on every city,state and national committee that has to do with voting.

We need to attend open meetings of the FCC and speak out and picket the building.

We need to get active and in their face not just phone and fax.

[AZCat]

20. It's not about the power, it's about the principle

By saying that we're willing to cross the line and try to steal elections, it means that we have abandoned the very principles upon which this nation was founded - it means that we have decided that we know better than the electorate (the people) what is best for the country, and we're going to get into a position to make the right decisions no matter the cost. That is not only arrogant, it is dishonorable to the work done by the generations before us. Do we think that we're special - that the situation that now presents itself is unique? The nation is ALWAYS in a precarious position, because democracy itself is unstable. One hundred and fifty years ago we were at a critical stage that dwarfs the problems of today, yet we still survived. Granted, it was tragic and crippling, but if we are capable of lasting through that period we are capable of making it through another Bush* term.

Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter how hackneyed that phrase is. The Republican party can sell it's principles out, but that does not mean that we have to respond in kind. Did MLK switch tactics because the opposition engaged in ruthless, illegal activities to stop him?

[PATRICK]

21. Satire?

Two problems. First is that this is still one step behind, following the dirty steps and those GOP pioneers who own the game.

Second and part of the first. They know when we are trying half-heartedly to be criminal frauds and have the ability to have it both ways. If you google the word fraud, especially in 2002, I bet you will find more media play and legal action against bumbling Dems than anything the GOP did in the open. There are NEW avenues of vote fraud that "both sides doing it" would simply mean the country can be again herded into by media/GOP dictatorship ploys, such as online voting even phone voting.

This is like shooting our way in. One crime or another in answer to oppression is not really a very winning option, nor are the results very good. We already HAVE Dem SOS's slimy enough to wink at fraud, except they do it for the GOP and their own careers! I hate to think what more idealistic types would agonize over that could stand a chance against the ruthless. They'd just get caught halfway with their hands in the jar.

Like it or not, our choices are limited. Victimhood should be as unacceptable as fraud and violence. The hard work of reaching the numbed, misdirected masses has no easy shortcuts of liberal radio or boycotts to assure easy answers either.

Employing OUR computer experts is a good idea, but the application is twisted. I'd say let them come up with some ideas even if it crosses into the realm of civil disobedience, but NOT assuming they have to become thugs for the party.

I think we have seen it is very right to be wary of pushing this party even further down the dark path when they can't use their principles to achieve practical good even now. This is close to saying that our saner more competent ruling class is better than their nutty destructive one, democracy and truth be damned. I don't think you will get most decent people to do the dirty for the crowd the Democrats field right now. The Democrats, after all, invented Jim Crow in the first place to get back democratic power over their states. The goals became quickly lost in the methods of maintaining unjust power through unjust methods. Not many good products there though you might argue they eventually(reluctantly?) joined bigger coalitions for real democracy and more power. Then those types jumped the honest ship as soon as possible and made the GOP twice the monster it was.

We can barely keep the power hungry from jumping ship as it is. This would breed more of them and unless they have some generational hatred of the GOP such as the Civil War bred, they would probably get added to the GOP machine, itself needful or a REAL majority still.

Smarter not crookeder. Smarter not simply trying harder.

[Mutley]

22. no...

i don't think we need to stoop to their level... what we need is for the democrats in office to grow some balls and bring some light to the multitude of problems that are going on with this administration... they need to worry more about what is the right thing to do than their jobs... is this possible?

[Georgia_Dem]

23. If election reform occurs within the year, it may not be necessary.

But only if it does.

The Democrats know they're being screwed, and finally opened debate about the election machines yesterday. It may lead to some election reform. If not in the Republican Congress, maybe in the states where
Democrats are a potent political force.

But if no progress towards election reform is made by 2006, it's time
to get bright young hackers in the party to cheat back. You know, surprise the media when California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and Texas Senator Kay Hutchison lose their elections despite their projected comfortable victories.

Is this the moral thing to do? Of course not. But sometimes, the moral thing to do is not the right thing to do. If the Republicans block election reform with success, And we fail to do what is necessary, here's what you're looking at. A country that looks like a Communist nation. Pro big business living well while the poverty rate repeatedly goes up. Workers being drafted and forced to work 60 hours a week with no breaks, even for lunch. Religion truly being used for control over the American people. And best of all, the FBI lobbing gas bombs into the houses of the "treasonous" dissenters.

If we can't ensure fair elections, then that scenerio will happen unless we do some election rigging of our own. And the only price of avoiding that scenerio is a few rich people failing to advance further in the government and the self-respect of some of the people
in the Democratic party. Don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.

I end with a response to the argument that good always triumphs and no evil deed ever goes unpunished. That is not true. Supportors of this theory always bring up Watergate. Well, what about the illegal arms deals and corporate scandals of the 80s. Where were Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr.'s impeachments over those things? In the dumpster where justice has been dropped on many an occasion. The fact
is, good and evil have both scored victories over the other.

[Pab Sungenis]

24. The Republicans do this stuff....

Because (1) They know they can get away with it, and (2) they know they won't end up on the receiving end.

I'd rather be moral and above-board myself, but when there are perfectly (apparently) acceptable ways to cheat and cover it up, and they know we won't do it but they can, then they're not going to give ground.

If the Republicans get HONESTLY scared that we're not going to take the high ground any more, that we're going to use every sneaky, slimy trick they use, then maybe they'll join us in stopping those sneaky, slimy tricks.

But if they're NOT going to help us clean up this mess and meet us on a fair and level playing field, then we need to use the same weaponry they do.

I don't mind losing fair and square. But I'm not going to play fair if I'm the only one playing fair.

Consider it the electoral version of mutual assured destruction.

[orpupilofnature57]

25. Once you draw the water from the well,your polluted. Ibsen