"Giving up" on the Democrats is short-sighted & defeatist

[dpbrown]

First of all, I think that we scored a victory yesterday when Senator Boxer signed the objection to Ohio's electoral (not electorial!) votes.

Some decry the Democrats who didn't stand up. They want to throw up their hands and give up on the Democratic Party as a result.

Now, people will lament the woeful tides of change (or not) the way their internal clock sees fit, but it seems to me that "leaving" seems less critical now than "ousting" might be.

The way I look at it, there are only two great ships on the seas of US politics today. One great ship has been taken over by the PNAC pirates, who are raping and pillaging and marauding as fast as they can before Peak Oil and a restored democratic (to say nothing of legal justice) system catches up with them.

The other great ship is, unfortunately, under the effete hand of a feckless band of mannequins masquerading as leaders while secretly wishing for the "potency" so damagingly displayed by the marauding pirates crushing all things dear.

There are no other boats on the ocean bigger than tiny rowboats, though the bombast displayed by many of the munchkins pontificating about the lofty (yet practically unobtainable) goals that are espoused by the powerless spear-fishers in their leaky rowboats oft sparks nostalgic whimsy in the hearts of those who remember or long for better days. The minuscule crews in their tiny bowls sometimes even score a walrus or two along the way, too, causing loud and boisterous catcalls (that fade into the ocean and nearly no one hears) about how real and effective these new floating motes actually are.

They're not. Though on occasion one or the other of the massive piloted crafts catches a glimpse of and expropriates a method or an idea of the lesser groups, and uses it to further marginalize the tiny, wishful warriors in their wave-tossed crafts.

The only prize worth having on this political ocean of transformational change is control of one of the major vessels, since from that control is launched all meaningful political progress.

What that means is that when these politicians, under the hypnotic spell of the neutered Rasputins of corporate whoredom, disappoint, the answer must be a commitment to redouble the effort to infiltrate, isolate, and depose those ineffective nonleaders, not to leave and grant them further privilege to pilot this major craft.

Only one fully operational ship can counter the actions of the other. There are no "suicide bombers" in the tiny rowboats of this ocean.

The captains of the drifting major vessel are engaged in kow-towing worship of their false god of corporate profit über alles. Distracted in their duties, they barely notice that the ship is drifting toward the rocks.

Control of this ship is the goal of every progressive and activist taking a long-term view of the dire straits in which we find ourselves today.

Building a support system, a constituency, to undergird the activities of those for whom passive surrender to the wicked winds of corporate control of politics is no longer an option, is the best way to build a base that can sustain progressive control of the ship once we have it.

Ultimately controlling, but in the interim influencing, the course of that great ship will facilitate the election of populist, common sense politicians attuned to the voices of this newly inspired community.

Will it work? Maybe.

Will having control create transformational political change? Maybe.

Either way it's better than sitting the struggle out, or dissipating our efforts between tiny progressive groups that will never attain major political effect, and giant political groups that have lost their way.

The most effective means forward is to focus on making one group a truly effective opposition to the other.

Stay or go, progressive Democrats are moving forward.

http://www.pdamerica.org

http://www.progressivecaucus.net

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[dpbrown]

1. Gratuitous kick

:kick:

[xultar]

2. I like your avatar. It think it can be the symbol of the revolution n/t

[dpbrown]

3. We made buttons and they were great hits

See:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MinnesotaProgressiveCaucus

to see what our button looks like.

DPB

[no name no slogan]

14. We're making more, too

I'm ordering more from the printer. I was trying to get them done for this weekend, but couldn't swing it.

Look for them to be available in the VERY near future!

Btw, GREAT POST! I've posted similar stuff today, too. Why should WE abandon OUR party, just because the corporatists are currently in charge?

It makes as much sense as moving out of your home, just because the next door neighbor didn't wave to you.

[dpbrown]

20. NNNS did a fantastic job with the buttons

If your organization wants buttons, send no name no slogan a private note and see if you can't work something out.

DPB

[cestpaspossible]

4. Even DINO Baucus came out against Bush's SS plan today

Let's not give up the fight before it's fought.

[blondeatlast]

5. I'm with you 100%, and am looking for "branch" Dem orgs to

work with.

Thanks for the links, you may be seeing me soon.

[jandrok]

6. Great post and thanks for the links (n/t)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. A rather flowery dissertation about a sinking ship.

A top heavy craft overladen with Captains who have a proclivity for only steering to starboard. Run aground between Panderamus and Corruptio.

[dpbrown]

9. Still less effort to patch the ship and commandeer than bail out

The only other options are mere blips. Motes. Specks.

Flowery or not, no third party is ever going to come to take federal power without the enabling of one of the two major parties.

Therefore, taking control of one of the two major parties (and creating a supporting constituency) is still the only viable national strategy for creating transformational political change.

DPB

[AlinPA]

8. We didn't lose the election by a large margain. We are close. It

angers me to hear this crap about the party in "shambles', etc. It's bullshit.

[aeolian]

10. "close" against such a pathetic opponent as the shrub

was an embarassment.

It would have been premature to abandon them after '94, perhaps even after 2000, but the total lack of fight displayed by the dem leadership, and the "maybe they've got a point" capitulation to the right, is disappointing in the extreme.

[txaslftist]

45. Thank you AlinPA!

That's a reminder we all need.

Kerry got more votes than any candidate in recent American history, with the exception of Bush. Bush got more votes against him than any candidate in American history, with the exception of Kerry.

It was awful damn close, and we're hardly a party in shambles!

[killbotfactory]

11. I'm fed up

The party leadership doesn't know what they are doing. America has gone insane. If this were WWII France would be the democratic party, and nazi germany would be the republicans.

[AlinPA]

12. I'm reading Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here". (novel about

a fascist takeover in the US with someone with about the same intelligence as Bush** and a brain like Rove). Sometimes it feels like its happening here now, but I still have hope that we can beat those maggots.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

15. I agree. The numbers are in the Democratic Party and to win we need #s

To simply go third party is ridiculous and a futile. But I think we need to form an alliance that brings all progressives together. The DNC is not supporting the members of the Democratic Party. It also doesn't pick the candidates. The Democrats do. So the Democrats and others need to form a counter organization and vote to nominate and back progressives. This is a way to bring others home and to stick it to the conservatives in our party.

[dpbrown]

19. The key orgs will be PDA and DFA

Progressive Democrats of America and Democracy for America.

Practically speaking, they're both up and running. Here in Minnesota we've elected a regional representative who works with a council consisting of 13 Midwestern states. PDA organizes and distributes information and assistance, and we try to replicate what we've done correctly in one state in another.

One big thing we're doing correctly in Minnesota are the DNC Listening Tours. Our first listening tour was sponsored jointly by the DFL Progressive Caucus (that's us - our Democratic Party is the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party here in Minnesota).

Read our press release on the first DNC Listening Session here

We've tried to spark interest in other states to go forward with Listening Tours - they are fantastic ways to get people fired up about participating in the DNC's next big decision, especially in states that elect their DNC representatives.

Doing this in California would probably net national news coverage, though time is growing short before the DNC meeting where they'll be selecting the next Chair.

In Minnesota, DFA and PDA (as the DFL Progressive Caucus) have a good relationship, though there is still some distance and "sizing up" going on between the two. Many of the chief players in DFA in Minnesota came on board with the Progressive Caucus almost immediately, however, making for a smooth transition and synergy.

One thing that being successful in creating a progressive, named organization tied to the Democratic Party does is challenge directly the DLC as the sole voice speaking for the Democrats, and that is a very good thing.

I recommend to everyone that we work on two things: 1) Making PDA and DFA as strong as possible, and 2) Bringing them together to concentrate the effort even further.

http://www.pdamerica.org/

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

http://www.progressivecaucus.net/

DPB

[genius]

23. The PDA is good. DFA has supported some DLC people.

We need to unite all the progressive groups. It sounds like you're doing great in Minnesota. In California, we're still working on getting a progressive caucus going within the Democratic Party. Hopefully, in April (at the state convention) that will change. There are a lot of groups working towards the same end but they are not all connected. Because they are disconnected, I don't know how much help the California groups will be with the DNC Chair. However, each group should contact all the DNC members in their state and encourage them to vote progressive. The lists are available from the Party. Dean's not a progressive but he seems to have more courage than the other DNC Chairman candidates. I wish someone more progressive was in the race. I believe that, to change the DNC, we need to open it up more. The open voting is a real problem. I've heard from individuals that they have lost business and jobs as a result of voting for the wrong people.

BTW, what happened to Mark Dayton? I think he's one of your's. Was Thursday a-typical or does he have a problem with catering to the other side?

Thanks for the info.

[dpbrown]

24. There are a lot of new people in DFA, be careful with a litmus test

Roughly speaking, the DFA came out of Dean's camp, and PDA out of Kucinich's.

So again, roughly speaking, the DFA is looking for "backbone" and the PDA has more of a focus on "issues."

Dean has shown the other side of the fundraising coin by turning the equation on its head. - more individual donations leads, de facto, to less importance (and hence influence) on the corporate donation side.

Since the equation essential to making the Democratic Party a viable opposition party is still reducing the influence of corporate "citizens" (Damn you, Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad!), Dean is the best bet of the lot, since his track record is proven on eroding one segment of of corporate domination of the political process through the Democrats.

(For an explanation of how corporations falsely got the rights of "citizens" under the Constitution, go here)

That's why the Democrats inside the beltway are circling the wagons to get Dean out of the running.

As to Dayton, I think he made a mistake in being the Senator chosen to speak out on the side of "bad precedent" but there are at least two redeeming factors: 1) He's already said he's inclined to vote against Gonzales, and 2) he's already called Bush a liar on Iraq.

I think Dayton rationalized that he might gain some ground against his ongoing "Dashlization" here in Minnesota. Hate radio already has him in their sites, and he probably wanted to give them one less thing to talk about. His miscalculation was that all the people who are likely to work the hardest toward his reelection in Minnesota are people for whom the Ohio challenge was a important, essential event in taking back the electoral process.

Dayton was much more comfortable, I think, being the liberal understudy to Paul Wellstone than being the liberal counterweight to the smarmy sleazebag who succeeded him, Norm Coleman.

DPB

[genius]

31. Thank you.

I guess unless someone new jumps into the DNC Chair race, Dean is the person to back.

I think I feel more confortable with PDA, simply because of the issues. But we have a lot to learn about fundraising from the Dean people.

I'm glad to hear that Dayton is leaning against Gonzales. Do you think you could get him to filibuster instead of voting no?

[dpbrown]

33. Filibuster...I don't think anyone has asked Dayton about that

I'm going to ask around and find out if there is a plan in place to try to convince him to filibuster.

Thanks for the idea!

DPB

[leanin_green]

16. Let's not forget those of us on the nuclear submarines.

Many of us are just going underground and are going to take the fight where they can't see us coming.

[bluedonkey]

17. Somtimes

you have to cut your losses and move on.
The national party is disconnected from its base,to wake them up we have to leave and mean it.Reorganize and continue the fight.
I'm done with those Washington Democrats!

[dpbrown]

29. You're wrong, since you become meaningless once you leave

If the people who should be determining the direction the Party takes leave, then the Party will have to listen to the people who stay.

[NoFederales]

18. dp--searching for a way

In the near term, who do we go to? how do wrest control from the corporatists who ramrod the Party? It seems that if you stand back and survey the whole political landscape, we are talking about unseating an entrenched aristocracy. I've read many reasonable posts that suggest working at the local level and branching out and up. But I don't believe we have the luxury of a near decade to put a halter on this runaway extremism.

I have tried to draw in my horns and focus on just the social security and election fraud tsunamis. And as if this is not daunting enough, not having leaders stand up for party ideals and act with integrity and resolution is as much pure frustration as it is a damning indictment.

Sure the mechanism of the party exists, but how do you fit someone like me into the fix? someone who has been stretched to a no tolerance stance against the corpo-aristacracy?

NoFederales

[dpbrown]

21. There are two pieces: Building Constituency, and Electing Politicians

If you're burned out on doing the electing work, then there is work to be done in educating our neighbors and creating cooperation where before maybe there was ignorance.

I recommend finding out what PDA is doing in your state. In more than 35 states a Progressive Caucus has been formed, and they are linking up through PDA to create a counterweight to the DLC as the sole voice of the Democratic Party.

Here in Minnesota, we've already sponsored DNC Listening Tours as the DFL Progressive Caucus where our state members of the Democratic National Committee sit down with real Minnesota DFLers (our party is the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party) to listen to what we want from the DNC and who we support for DNC Chair.

Read our press release from our first DNC Listening Session here

First stop, PDA:

http://www.pdamerica.org/

Then you can check out what DFA is doing in your area:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

And keep in touch with what we're up to in Minnesota here:

http://www.progressivecaucus.net/

Remember, it's our Party.

DPB

[dpbrown]

22. Here's a link to the thread on the PDA National Summit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1477429

Kevin, the director of PDA, posts here on DU.

DPB

[theHandpuppet]

25. Eloquent, but still a broken record

Thirty-five years (a Dem voter since '70) of hearing the same broken record is enough for me. I dare the Dem Party to call our house again asking for our support and $$$. What passes for an opposition party in the capital now is a joke.

Those in the band who wish to keep playing "Nearer My God To Thee" as the ship sinks beneath the waves are welcome to do so. I'm no longer going to bang the drum and am heading for the lifeboat.

[dpbrown]

26. Bligh did eventually get back to England, but he never was quite the same

I hope you find happiness in your quest to reduce your influence in the political process to some sum less than zero.

Cheers,

DPB

[theHandpuppet]

30. That was a reference to the Titanic, not the HMS Bounty

And as for the total sum of my apparent political influence, as the saying goes, "A difference which makes no difference IS no difference."

[dpbrown]

32. My point is mutiny and yours is defeatism - YOU got the analogy wrong

Getting off the boat is accepting defeatism.

Your rather quaint reference to the band playing on the sinking Titanic is inappropriate on several levels:

1. "New" people from the Dean and Kucinich camps (and others) were inspired to political participation - that defeats your analogy just as "flying in a band" might to the original concept of idly sitting by on the Titanic while it sank. Did you check TicketMaster to see if you can get tickets to the "sinking concert"?

2. The people who have gotten involved in the political process lately are critically examining the process with an eye to change, not accepting the status quo - this defeats your analogy just as "bringing in a new engineer" might to the concept of idly sitting by on the Titanic while it sank. "Captain, the engineer says the boat is leaking and he has a plan to fix it before it sinks."

3. Bligh was thrown off a ship by mutineers. You're leaving on your own, convinced the ship can't sustain you. You're the one who is choosing to become a person without a method of influencing future policy. You're the one who is choosing to become meaningless in the ongoing struggle to make our political parties effective tools of engendering change. Either way, the both of you are ending up in a little rowboat with no ability to have any say over what you want politics to do. The difference here is that Bligh believed he'd survive and retake his vessel someday. You, apparently, are just feeding your self-endorsing cycle of powerlessness to convince yourself that you don't matter.

[txaslftist]

46. And that lifeboat would be....

Canadian citizenship?

Not me. I'll keep on fighting to turn my ship in the right (left) direction, thanks.

[Cheswick2.0]

27. I am not giving up on democrats I WANT BETTER DEMOCRATS IN OFFICE

I will not support just any democrat because they are in office. If they spend their career being careful so they can stay in office, then they have to go.

[dpbrown]

28. The key will be getting active in PDA and DFA in your area

See #19 above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1475612&mesg_id=1477449&page=

DPB

[Cheswick2.0]

56. I am more than active in my local DFA

[dpbrown]

58. DFA and PDA have to work together

I know DFA has meetups, and in my state, the Progressive Caucus that's affiliated with the PDA has regular meetings.

The Progressive Caucus has a constitution, and we're going to get voted in by our state party central committee as a recognized party organization this month.

Both PDA and DFA bring something to the table, but it's going to be very important for the two to work together.

[IronLionZion]

34. Sometimes it's fun to stand in a circle and shoot ourselves

:eyes:

The Republicans are laughing at us all the way to the bank.

[dpbrown]

35. Problem is, it's OUR bank, and OUR money!

Maybe we should switch to circular dodgeball, instead.

:shrug:

[IronLionZion]

36. The Republicans are robbing us blind

reminds me of an Oriental story where a couple was bickering over something. They were so engrossed in their quarrel that they didn't notice that someone was robbing their house.

[dpbrown]

38. Seems like it's more important to find broad areas of agreement

Once we become perfect advocates for our own special interest, then we tend to lose sight of the bigger picture - ensuring a better existence for all of us by ensuring a better existence for all of us.

I hope that we've learned the lesson of how to focus on what matters and leave the rest behind, get to work, and win.

DPB

[izzybeans]

37. Love it.

[dpbrown]

55. Thanks, man

Remember, it's OUR party.

[okieinpain]

39. man, bullshit, dems suck

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=172x5139

[dpbrown]

42. I feel your pain, but I think you're wrong

Of course, there are Democrats who don't see the long-term gain in obtaining a more populist approach, and there are Democrats who curry favor with corporations with no critical eye to the defects in U.S. capitalism, but there are also many thousands of Democrats, many new this time around, due to the campaigns of Kucinich and Dean, that are ready and willing and able to take a critical look at the system, and the Party, and the issues, and put those alternatives in play.

[okieinpain]

48. agreed, but non of that matters if the leadership of this party

doesn't change their way of doing things. I just read the letter from that asshole sos in ohio, and the man doesn't care about how he is perceived. he might as well said that god himself appointed him to stop the minions of hell (dems). this is from the person that is suppose to help ensure a clean and fair election.

I know a lot of folks around here say that we should not get down in the dirt with them. but to me there is no other way to fight this battle, the stakes are extremely high, and the time for timid actions are over.

we need new leadership.

[dpbrown]

49. The way to get new leadership is for us to band together to ask for it

That's why I don't understand anyone who says they want to "give up" and hide out in some smaller, meaningless-on-a-national-scale, other group.

The way to get changes in the Democratic Party, reforms nationwide, a better government, and laws that benefit everyone, is to passionately participate in one or the other of the major political parties.

Everyone else is either giving the other side ammunition, or just rendering themselves moot.

[Mountainman]

40. What if the Democrats gave up on us first?

I think I am a progressive and if the Democrats don't see themselves as progressives than they have given up on me.

I refuse to support a party that wants to be right of center period!

[dpbrown]

41. I think you miss the point that "we" are "them" when we think about power

The Democrats are not some monolithic cultural phenomenon that "gave up" on anyone.

They are a political party that has gradually been taken over by corporate interests, since the way the sick capitalism is practiced in this country it allows almost unlimited concentration of political power in the hands of corporate heads.

In any other time and place, we'd call that fascism and fight it, but citizens of our nation are so numbed by overconsumption that they are ready to jump at anything the media tells them to get riled up over.

The "people" who are catering to the morbidly ill capitalism in this nation, then, are just people like you and me. Sure, they've set up barriers to getting involved in the process, and insulated themselves behind appointments and protocol, but the bottom-line truth is that nothing gets done in this country unless one or the other of the two major parties takes it on.

Leaving puts you outside that process.

Staying means we may be able to make the Democratic Party a real opposition party again, and a real populist party, and a party that stands for common sense.

Leaving just means that you've drunk the Koolaid that the media has been feeding you - that you just don't matter.

We matter if we work together and don't get all freaked out over tiny things, but consider the big picture and believe we can do whatever we put our minds to.

[IrateCitizen]

43. The first step in your proposal is to define "Democrats"...

If you're talking about the vast peoples that make up the ranks of registered Democrats, that's something I can believe in. However, the vast ranks of registered Democrats do not have their views represented by the national party, which has most of the power right now.

Personally, as much as I'd like to bolt for the Greens (I agree with everything in the GP platform), I've decided to remain a Democrat. But in doing so, I will not make the mistake of diverting my energies to support the feckless enabler of corporatism and neofascism that is the national Democratic Party. Rather, I will look to support local progressive candidates for office and continue to work on causes that exist largely outside of the official political process.

I honestly believe, in hindsight, that the overwhelming support that progressives and left-liberals gave to the Kerry campaign was a tremendous mistake. At the very moment that the anti-war movement was growing and seeing several rather disparate constituencies joining forces, it abandoned its cause and instead threw its energy into supporting a status-quo candidate who promised not to end the war against Iraq, but to fight it "better" in order to "win". The end result, regardless of the outcome of the election, would be a loss of momentum against the war -- the one issue that seemed to bring most left-liberals, progressives, and all other groups on the left together.

The Democratic Party on the national level is almost hopeless. Where it once almost strived to become a viable left-of-center party, it has instead drifted to a center-right party that favors extending corporatism, continuing a foreign policy based on belligerent militarism, eroding of privacy rights, and championing the cause of "market fundamentalism" rather than trying to be an equal arbiter between popular and commercial interests. Trying to wrest this control back will be next to impossible so long as the trojan horse of corporatism remains the major power player within the Democratic Party.

[dpbrown]

44. I define "us" as Democrats

So I recognize that though the makeup of the Democratic Party at present may leave something to desire, I believe the only way to get where we want to go with the party is to stay involved.

Building and sustaining a constituency that can get progressive Democrats elected is going to take work. Figuring out the way the party works in order to suggest and support changes that make it more attuned to the base is going to take work.

Just waiting to see if the Democrats or whomever select someone progressive to run so we can choose to support them or not isn't enough. People who care about creating transformational political change have to get involved with the party during the lull between election cycles. We have to learn how caucuses or primaries are run. We have to study the party constitutions. We have to find opportunities to produce education that awakens our neighbors to issues that lift us all up, and clearly show the lie in continuing to promote a corporate class over all others.

Progressives were not wrong to support Kerry. This election showed the possibility in the progressive camp. When well organized, the progressive camp is going to wield considerable influence within the Democratic Party.

That's the long-term vision that we have to continue to promote at all levels - a populist, effective, common sense opposition party that people will flock to, with minimal barriers to participation, plenty of transparency in operation, and the ability to build and support a progressive constituency that will elect more and more politicians in tune with what will help all of us, not just the rich.

[txaslftist]

47. I agree almost entirely with this post...

Talk of leaving the ship is premature. This is not a party in shambles. We need discipline, a change in leadership and a return to our core values. We need to embrace progressivism and liberalism. We need to fight harder, not give up.

We have a leadership problem. I disagree with the sentiment that there is "something wrong with the current makeup of the democratic party". I like democrats. I am one of them, and I am part of the make up of the democratic party. The rank and file democrats are looking for a strong liberal/progressive voice to pull them forward.

We need to purge the blue states of republicans, even 'moderate republicans'. We need to challenge the red states' office holders. Colorado is a good example of a red state going blue, led not by mealy-mouthed accomodationists, but by social liberals who pay attention to local issues.

We need to get away from the corporation culture and get back to populism.

We are making a comeback. And you are fundamentally correct. Except as moral guides and alternative policy forums, third (and fourth and fifth and sixth, etc. ad nauseum) parties are flotsam.

[dpbrown]

50. Well said, and it's leadership on multiple scales that needs changing

One thing we're doing that's working here in Minnesota is staging "DNC Listening Tours" where we get our six members of the Democratic National Committee to sit down with regular Minnesotans and hear what we have to say. Last time we did this, more than 300 people turned out to advocate for leadership, populism, and Dean for Party Chair.

Addressing the taint of the broken capitalism at the heart of corporate pandering is going to be essential to taking our country back and making our party more relevant.

The only goal worth having in the system the way it's set up today is to passionately participate in local politics within one of the two major parties. The only way forward is for one or the other of the major parties to take up the banner of reform.

And I'm pretty sure the Republicans aren't going to be the ones to do it.

[txaslftist]

51. Nope, reckon they'll outsource that job to us.

[dpbrown]

52. I accept

:toast:

[quaker bill]

53. From a progressive point of view...

If the progressive movement cannot organize a ground game sufficient to take over and run the Democratic Party, then it has no hope of gathering sufficient momentum to take over and run the country.

You see, the Democratic party is simply a smaller thing than the entire country. Accordingly, it will require fewer people and less effort to pull it off.

It is simply obvious folks. Toss in the towel now, and you might as well just hang it up entirely. If we have concluded that we cannot accomplish this smaller thing, then we have admitted defeat.

[dpbrown]

54. That's it in a nutshell, isn't it

If you can't organize sufficiently to have an effect in a smaller pond, they how in Green Acres do you think you're going to have a bigger effect by downsizing while moving into a bigger arena?

[dpbrown]

57. A kick for no discernible reason

:kick:

[dpbrown]

59. And another

Just because.

:kick: