DLC members supported by DFA

[Radical Activist]

I decided to compare the list of DLC members in Congress with the list of those who received money from Democracy for America.

I found a DLC list from their website here:
http://www.ndol.org/new_dem_dir.cfm

The list of DFA recipients I found at http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.asp?strID=C00370007&Cycle=2004

Since the DLC site only lists incumbent members of Congress I don't know how many candidates that lost were DLC members that also received DFA money. So this is only a partial list that covers incumbents.

Rep. Joseph Crowley - NY
Rep. Rush Holt - NJ
Rep. Nick Lampson - TX
Rep. Zoe Lofgren - CA
Rep. Jim Matheson - UT
Rep. Jim Moran - VA
Rep. Grace Napolitano - CA
Rep. Loretta Sanchez - CA
Rep. David Wu - OR
Sen. Ken Salazar - CO

I don't argue with DFA's right to support moderate DLC candidates. I do take issue with the frequent portrayal of DFA as a progressive vehicle to move the party left, if they're going to support DLC moderates at the same time. If the point of DFA isn't to support progressive candidates, then what is its true mission?

[xultar]

1. OOOoooooh SHIT - DAYUM this is gonna be a hot one. Leemee get

another rum and coke. Wait till I get back before you start.

[Radical Activist]

2. LOL

Just pointing out a dirty little truth here. I'm curious how people will react.

[xultar]

4. OK I'm back...Y'all can start now!

[wyldwolf]

9. either the DFA isn't what it is portrayed as here on DU...

...or the DLC isn't what it is portrayed as here on DU...

of course, someone will probably say those are from the progressive wing of the DLC...

[Radical Activist]

13. I'm waiting for that

the defense of the people on the list. If there were one or two that would be easy to explain. But this is a list of ten, and it only includes those who won their election. That's a little harder to brush off. Since the people on the list are all Democrats I'm sure some of them aren't that bad.

[xultar]

20. Which is fine. Why must we automatically hate them without knowing

them. I'm sure there are progressives in the DLC just like there are moderates in the DFA.

Howard Dean is a Moderate. Is that bad? HE's not in the DLC but he is a Moderate. I don't see that is a bad thing.

Dean has to be a moderate especially if he was planning to try to woo the good' ole boys down here in the deep south.

[wyldwolf]

31. of course

mine was merely a comment on how rigid the DLC hatred is on DU -- and if anyone will now make excuses for DFA or turn on them.

After all, a long and ongoing thread for the past two days here advises DU'ers to not support DLC-approved Dems. Does that now mean DFA Dems, too?

[madfloridian]

82. No, I think you should hate us right now.

Do it automatically. Kick us out. :silly: I would actually feel nothing but relief. Nothing at all.

[Cheswick2.0]

109. The DLC is an assinine organization

but every person who ever joined it is not. Lots of politicians join every group that comes along for networking purposes. They may have joined and never signed onto the philosphy.

None of that stops the DLC leaders from being moronic right wing losers.

Dean is a liberal and a moderate. I know that is a complicated idea.

[greenohio]

130. Or a simpleton idea. If there are good DLCers, why the broad brush?

Lets be consistent now. "Lots of politicians join every group that comes along for networking purposes" is such a cop out. The fact is, if they were these "principled and pure" politicians then they wouldn't join something that they despise. If you only have a problem with DLC leadership then call for new leadership in the DLC. Don't demonize "DLCers" which include a lot of good Dems.

[madfloridian]

32. The hatred is overwhelming.

If it is going to be this way, I need to pull some old files.

We know exactly what DFA does, we go through all their donations. If we don't like one we gripe and usually get an explanation.

We donated overnight 65,000 to Daschle...he needed the help, and we gave it.

We are so bad.

[wyldwolf]

yes it is ... post after dem attacking post

[madfloridian]

81. Don't look at me...I only post facts about the DLC.

You are totally after us. You are like others on this thread, and you love every minute of it.

It is really sad, too.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

88. Hey, when one is being attacked, ww, one is the "victim."

That has never worked on me, and it has been tried by the best here.

I have an excellent idear....If you don't like us...kick us out...just say go deaniacs...you old victims you...just go..leave the party.

You know what? I would absolutely feel relief right now. I really would.

I think this board has become attack central for all Democrats to pit one against the other.

At least I can say I only go after the DLC, and I only do that with facts...and just the leadership and their goals.

So say it...we are not wanted, we are outsiders. I will go quietly and happily.....:eyes: :crazy: :silly:

[wyldwolf]

90. who is attacking you?

[madfloridian]

113. LOL

I am sorry, but what did you say? Never mind.

[wyldwolf]

116. yes. Show me a post in this thread where you've been attacked

I'll wait.

[greenohio]

131. Whatever.

[Maat]

41. Thanks for the rationality - and the info - Mad Floridian!

You and I have discussed the DFA before. I am a new member, and really enjoyed the two meetings that I went to.

[janx]

44. MF, do you have the link to the recent Dean interview--

the one in which he answers a question about the DLC? It would answer a lot of questions, I think.

[Radical Activist]

47. Hate? Or an uncomfortable truth?

Lots of people here bash the DLC without end. Many of those people are the same who support the DFA as a progressive alternative to take back the party. This post points out a problematic contradiction with those assumptions.

The man who spent the most time criticizing the DLC during the primary is now supporting DLC candidates, and I'm supposed to think that represents "standing up for what he believes in." I don't think so.

[madfloridian]

74. You are not even rational where we are concerned.

It amazes me how you so thoroughly distort and attack us.

[Radical Activist]

87. I have made two very rational points in this thread

1) DFA supports DLC candidates
2) DFA presents itself as an organization for progressives and progressive candidates, which is what Dean said in the speech you linked.
That isn't a distortion. The facts are right there.

[madfloridian]

91. Well, then, you win don't you? By golly, you win.

Dean is not fit for the party....so let's kick him out...kick us out.....then you don't have to worry anymore....
:dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :kick: :kick:

I would be very happy to do have the decision made for me. Hubby and I were discussing it tonight, as Dean's decision is due soon on the chair.

It would be so easy to have my decision made for me. Go ahead.
:kick: :kick:

[Liberty Belle]

3. Wow. Good find. Kick!

I'm running for an Assembly District committee as a delegate, after being inspired at a DFA meeting. It's scary to think that infiltrators could work their way up the ranks by posing as progressives.

That said, I don't know much about the elected officials you've mentioned. Can you give some examples of ways in which they are non-progressive, other than being members of the DLC?

[Elidor]

8. "infiltrators posing as progressives"

You've just described the recent history of the Democratic Party.

[Radical Activist]

10. I know about some of the members on the list

Matheson is a conservative Democrat in Republican area.
Others I know nothing about except that they appear on both lists. They may not be that bad at all.

I don't think this is a case of infiltrators within DFA. I'm sure Dean has some level of control over where the money goes. I think this is reflective of the original intent of the founders of DFA. They are the ones who hand out the big bucks.

[leanin_green]

219. Matheson is my rep and. . .

he's not a bad guy. But, he's a clear example about having to vote for someone in order to keep out the worst guy, in this case, John Swallow(s), who is someone who would have marched in lockstep with the other lemmings in the House. Matheson diserves a serious look, however, he tends to do what he thinks is right. He might be a DLCer just because he's part of the Blue Reps in Red states. But Utah is heavily pro-corporate.

[wyldwolf]

11. "infiltrators.." ha ha!

of course, why didn't I think of that? It's the damn DLC INFILTRATING DFA!!!

[Liberty Belle]

5. You should forward this to Howard Dean and ask him to explain.

[madfloridian]

35. What a childish statement. He said we would run candidates....

in difficult races and support the one who was best. Sanchez was best, Salazar was best.

[janx]

79. MF, Liberty Belle is a DFA member who is running for

office. I think you may have misunderstood her post. It's easy to do in these threads.

[madfloridian]

94. I did misread, but she should know that.

DFA has donated to candidates who are DLC, and it is not a secret. Like Salazar over Coors, and others, but since I don't live in the midwest I don't remember the names.

I hope it does not change her mind on running. I just thought people knew that.

I did take it wrong, but I am surprised. He has said at first we have to do what we can...then later get picky about it. Picky was not his word, but he meant the same. We don't get to chose at first in some areas...we go with the best one.

We can not be too demanding in some areas, we go with the best at the time to begin with.

[Elidor]

6. Very interesting

I suspect Dean has a stealth plan at work here. He is indeed more conservative than many people seem to realize.

[Cha]

49. Dean a no "stealth plan"...what you see is what

you get with Dean. It's amazing how people look at something like this thread starter and start Jumping to conclusions.


This is the real Enemy..Hardhead!

[WonderGrunion]

214. There is no "Stealth Plan"

Dean has publicly stated on many occasions that one of the goals of DFA (both 1.0 and 2.0) was to create a democratic majority in all levels of government. Sometimes that means supporting conservative dems in Republican controlled areas, but it does not mean giving up the fight to republicans.

Dean planned to run in all 50 states as a presidential candidate. Did John Kerry even visit Iowa after the caucus? Answer: no. That's why he lost. When you write off the south and plains and rocky mountain states, you lose them guaranteed. That what aggravates us Deaniacs so much about John Kerry. In the final round of the fight, his corner men told him he was ahead on points, so he stopped fighting. At least with Dean, we would of had someone who fought all 15 rounds instead of trying to run the clock.

[robbedvoter]

7. Rush Holt is the guy who wanted paper trail ballots

Don't know the rest, but maybe the DLC connection is not all that defining?
I also know Jim Moran voted against IWR, was quite outspoken against the war.

[cali]

12. I don't know much about some of those on the list

but I do know that Zoe Lofgren, Loretta Sanchez and Jim Moran are solidly liberal. In fact, Moran and Lofgren are very liberal.
I don't expect candidates from states like Texas and Utah to be liberals, Those states don't elect liberals, but it's vital that we support dems from red states even if they don't meet all are liberal ideals.

[greenohio]

136. "vital that we support dems from red " BINGO...even if they are DLC

Good post.

[Maat]

14. I don't know about anyone else, but ..

my DFA is filled with PROGRESSIVES. I don't fear hearing any DLC-stuff there. And I donate to my local org.

Now as to Loretta Sanchez ... from everything my sister says, she is a GOOD EGG. Just a person dedicated to helping the disadvantaged. And she was the one that had the courage to run against (and win against) Bob Dornan (you know - 'B-1 Bob').

Just because somebody is a member of the DLC, doesn't make me dislike them authomatically. Rep. Sanchez might have just wanted to fit in. I have not heard of her toeing any line that was not progressive. Of coure, she lives in and represents Orange County, which is the reddest part of California.

I guess I don't want the candidate to be disqualified from support just because they belong. Loretta Sanchez's election was a happy thing for those Democrats in Orange County - because they never believed that they could get any kind of representation.

[Radical Activist]

15. So you have a DFA filled with progressives

that donate money to DFA and don't reflect the DLC values at all. Then DFA takes that money and gives some of it to moderates and DLC members. You don't see a problem with that?

[Maat]

18. Well, I know what you are getting at ... and I am trying to answer ...

honestly.

1) My DFA does not funnel any of the money upwards that I know of (they barely get enough to meet their expenses).

2) All I can say is, I certainly don't mind any of my money going to Loretta Sanchez, unless someone knows something about her that I don't.

All I am saying is that I do not like the DLC point-of-view, or their top officials' views, in general (such as, I believe, Frum). But, just because someone was a member ... let's say I wouldn't vote against them solely for that reason.

I think I am going to research these candidates. See if they've done anything I object to.

But I trust the DFA org. to choose candidates whose election will improve the chances of progressives values being put into play ... until someone comes up with something on one of the candidates that is just earthshakingly upsetting.

Would you categorically vote against someone just because they were a member?

[madfloridian]

23. We donate to candidates and to the group. We know all the candidates....

who got money. Some were Dean Dozen, some were not....Heck, we collected 65,000 overnight for Daschle. He said he would support the best candidate...for example Salazer was better than Coors.

Boy, this is childish. Those of us who are active know he has welcomed moderate Republicans and Greens and Independents.

BTW, what is wrong with those candidates?

I criticize the goals of DLC, and I criticize those who accept their corporate ideals.

Salazer was not a Dean approved candidate, he was better than Coors.

[madfloridian]

26. No, we have a choice.

If you want to know more, it is really a great group. You are too filled with hatred to see, though.

[xultar]

17. That is such a great way of looking @ it. It seems that if you are DLC

then everyone @ DU must automatically hate them and if I don't then I'm DLC. I think that is sad.

[janx]

19. It was the DLC *leadership* that many people didn't like, xultar.

Many members of Congress and in other positions in government have been members over the years.

But that doesn't matter anymore. The DLC isn't very important now.

[xultar]

25. Very true. n/t

[Maat]

37. I quite agree, Xultar. It is sad.

And I'm sure you read my posts, and have realized that I'm with you - the districts themselves and the surrounding circumstances had to be considered.

Just because someone belongs to the DLC doesn't mean that I automatically dislike them and disagree with every view of theirs.

I look at it this way: I'm working with a good group of progressives in my local DFA. Who knows? We might support a candidate that belongs to the DLC if that candidate 1) largely supports progressive principles with their actions, and 2) if that's the right candidate for that district.

Now, that having been said, I certainly did not appreciate either the comments of one Bill Clinton (who I have great respect for), nor those two prominent DLC leaders, who came out and stated that the Democratic candidate should have supported the anti-gay constitutional amendments in those eleven states. And I expressed that view loudly! Moreover, I do not favor that leadership exerting control over the Party.

But that's another rant ...

[madfloridian]

39. The DLC was founded to run from its base to get money.

I have posted that over and over. I believe they are not truly Democrats....NOT the members...the founders who sit in offices and pontificate and make fun of anti-war folks.

I will continue to criticize.

[greenohio]

150. Now the DLCers have the DFA to fund them. Its a win win.

[w13rd0]

16. Dean said something during the primaries...

...and you people jumped all over him about it. Something to do with trying to be competitive in all the states. Not leaving incumbents unchallenged, etc. Actually, the topic of DFA supporting, in some cases, a moderate over a 'liberal', was discussed, and answered during the course of the blog and campaigns. Also, in some cases, DFA supported candidates that supported the DFA.

But you keep at it, it's a very special effort...

[Radical Activist]

21. Didn't Dean also say something in the primary about the DLC?

hmm..what was it? Was it something bad? Didn't he have negative things to say about the DLC? Its hard to remember sometimes.

If the decision to sometimes support moderate candidates over progressive ones was made then isn't it misleading to portray DFA is an organization for progressive Democrats, as it routinely is?

[madfloridian]

24. He also invited moderate Republicans...they have no party left.

Where did this idea come from that we were so far left?

[jpgray]

34. Well, calling others Republican-lite

Using Wellstone's phrase, calling DFA the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party--those are two examples. I mean, both opponents and proponents of Dean try to have it both ways--when it suits the argument he can be either a loony / fighter for the progressive left or a sell-out / pragmatic moderate. Really, he's somewhere in between the labels.

[madfloridian]

36. Well, we have Republicans in our local group. They knew what he meant.

Those of us who support the group, support the man who founded it.

We remained Democrats because he spoke out....but maybe no more after this week.

I am not liberal...some of the stuff here offends me with its extremism.

No, we have it all ways....not both ways. It is not a closed group, it is an open one.

[jpgray]

56. Really? Would DFA members welcome the majority of Iowa caucus goers?

It seems most members disagree with the Iowan view on things. Would DFA members support Clinton as soon as they would support Dean for '08? No. No need to proselytize here. DFA is not "all ways", it is dominated by progressives and Dean fans--these don't span "all ways". Santorum fans would be welcome if it was truly "all ways". DFA is a good thing as it really is--I don't see why you feel the need to pretend it's something else.

As for being accepting of the DLC, doesn't the DFA-based spinoff message board from this one have a "DLC fear and loathing" forum on it? I don't often hear those nasty generalizations of an entire group from Dean, nor does he threaten to leave the party every five minutes.

[madfloridian]

58. Iowa got to choose the nominee....not fair. DLC is not like us.

We are trying to hijack the party for the people not for corporations.

I think we will do it, too. It won't be soon, and some candidates will have to be supported as the lesser, but the time will come.

[madfloridian]

59. Ok, DLC good. Corporations good...Dean bad. Kick us out.

:kick:

[greenohio]

162. OK, now we're getting childish.

The point is to lay off DLCers. But you can't do that and now you have a problem because your guy funds them....from an organization that was supposed to wrest control from them.

[FightinNewDem]

123. Blame Iowa!

So now it's all Iowa's fault.

Iowa. A state with perhaps the most liberal caucus-going electorate of any state.

A state with a strong streak of quasi-pacifist isolationism.

A state that was the home of lefty icon Henry Wallace.

A state that it is home to DLC bete noir Tom Harkin.

Yes, it was the people of Iowa who fiendishly did Al From's dirty work and took down the sainted Howard Dean.

[Radical Activist]

143. Sung to the tune of "Blame Canada"

It should be sung at all DFA events. :)

Yes, Iowa does have a pacifist tradition and a lot of factory workers who lost their jobs when the factory shut down and moved to Mexico. Its the kind of state where it would be smart to change your position in support of NAFTA and start emphasizing your opposition to the war in Iraq. Of course, that isn't pandering when Howard Dean does it.

I think Iowa voters are pretty smart.

[madfloridian]

171. You think it is ok that all those states don't get a voice?

If you think so, then could you explain? That is my gripe. I believe my count on this was 37 states which never had a voice in the full slate.

[greenohio]

152. Clinton was elected without IA and NH. Give it up. Dean was the

frontrunner with tons of cash and name recognition. Face it, he blew it. And now he campaigns for DLCer Kerry and funds a series of DLCer congressional candidates. Meanwhile his supporters hold him up as a model of "no-compromise". The hypocrisy is astounding.

[NYCGirl]

40. It's not about right or left of center. It's about standing up for your

beliefs, about not "going along to get along". It's about being Democrats, openly and unapologetically.

[janx]

67. HERE is an excerpt of a recent interview. The rest is at the link.

Q That’s certainly one of the key things that everyone discusses at the (DFA) meetings. I suppose, one of the other things that always comes up is the DLC. They seem determined to move us even farther to the right. Whether or not you become the chair, do you think that we’ll be able to effectively deflect their approach at this point?


HD: I don’t think the DLC is a serious force of politics outside Washington (DC). I don’t think anybody knows who any of them are, and know that they pay much attention.


Q So you think it’s just us wonky types that are so incensed with their conduct……it seems like, I suppose that it is the “Party People” that are the most affected by the DLC and their statements.


HD: Yeah, I mean I don’t think the average American or the average voter, ( they ) have no idea who the DLC is nor do they care.


Q But it seems that their articulated strategy are the ones that keep cropping up every election cycle, and there’s many that would point to that as being an undue influence on the party.


HD: I think it’s the other way around. I think that what the DLC simply represents is there ARE people in the party who are, who do believe that “republican lite” is the way to go, and I don’t think that is the way to go and I made that very clear.


Q Amen, brother.


HD: You know, I don’t think we should dwell on that., I really think we should , instead of worrying about that there’s some other groups that want to move to the right, I think we ought to keep going straight forward. I think we are the moderate folks. They can tag us with the word “liberal” or whatever they want, and there’s nothing wrong with “liberal”, believe me, but I don't think we should pay attention to that any more. That’s one thing I would do differently if I were ,if I had to go back and do it over again, I wouldn’t bother with the DLC or the retrograde(s) , their forces in the party, I would try to move forward on our own agenda. You get sucked in to letting somebody else frame the agenda, that’s a problem. We shouldn’t let the Republicans do it nor should we let the DLC or anybody else like that do it.

http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/DeanInterview041230.htm

[jpgray]

71. To me this highlights the difference between Dean and some of his fans

He is not obsessed with DLC conspiracies hatched in the cornfields of Iowa, he's obsessed with advancing his ideas.

[janx]

76. "some of his fans"

I'm not a fan--the guy isn't a rock star.

But what you should understand is that DFA members and the people who supported Dean when he ran for president were not pleased with the negative memoranda coming from From and Reed.

Those weren't conspiracy theories, and many of us felt that it was none of their business to try and influence an election in that way.

[jpgray]

80. No doubt From and Reed did everything they could to bury Dean

He represented something wholly hostile to their control of the party, not to mention their strategy and ideology. I don't buy that the DLC somehow took control of the media after the Iowa speech--the ad nauseam replaying of the scream was something the media were happy to do all on their own. Would the DLC have done it if they could have? Yes. But did they? I don't think so. The media weren't pleased with him for the same reasons--he represented something hostile to their power in this country.

edit: And "fans" is a pretty neutral term--you can call me a fan of Dennis anytime, for example.

[janx]

124. Where on earth are you getting the idea

that anyone attributed the replay of the "scream" to the DLC?

? That's very weird.

[madfloridian]

78. The DLC is very real....and it has hurt the party.

You may continue to go after me just about everytime I post. That is your right....I just know what you are doing. I think it hurts the party.

[jpgray]

83. I'm not going after you

But when I disagree with you, I feel free to say so.

[greenohio]

153. And the DFA is funding DLCers. How can we support the DFA

now? They are funding "repuke lite".

[Tom Rinaldo]

97. That has about as much information value as me saying

The difference between me and some DU posters is that I am a reasonable person. So exactly who are you tarring and what size brush are you using to do it?

[Cheswick2.0]

184. I doubt I am as "obessesed with the DLC"

as you are obsessed with Dean threads and flame bait.

[greenohio]

186. Yeah, any thread that doesn't demonize the DLC is flame bait.

What a skewed sense of reality.

[w13rd0]

55. Straw men...

...but you already know that. There is also the constant victim complex that some engage in, where since the leadership of the DLC is criticized, it's made out by them to be "DFA hates all DLCers and moderates too"...

It gets pretty tiresome.

[greenohio]

163. Did you miss the purge/vote against DLCers threads here?

Or have you forgotten them. Or maybe you have missed the "fu-- the DLC" posts. I really shouldn't have to find the links for you. Are you new, like joined today?

[Maat]

28. See, that's what I mean, w13rdo!

My sister certainly didn't want B1-Bob's protegee or some other far-right wacko elected in Orange County. And Loretta Sanchez has represented progressives well. And believe me, if any Democrat was going to be successful there, believe me, they would have had to have been perceived as at least somewhat centrist.

So, I understand what DFA was going for, especially in light of your post, and I support that, even though, if I take a survey, I come out way farther left than any DLC-er. This despite the fact that Hubby and I own our own education-software-related corporation, and it does have some Republicans as partners, as well as Democratic partners, and the same for its customers, and professionals that support it. So, I don't go off on the anti-corporate tirades some of my fellow progressives do. I have a different slant, being a law student. It's not that we don't have adequate laws on the books, it is that we don't enforce them, especially the most important ones. But that's another rant...

[Tom Rinaldo]

22. I don't belong to DFA yet but I like what they do

I probably will join when I think I have time to do so in more than name only. I see Dean as left of center, not far left, and trying to use labels more specific than that starts breaking down. I appreciate that Howard Dean has supported many new people getting involved in Democratic politics at the grass roots level.

I think Howard Dean is a Democrat who is willing and able to fight for what he believes in, and significantly more often than not I agree with him on issues. I am tired of Democrats who are ineffective fighters, and I feel that way about many Congressional Democrats. Nonetheless I do not see the DLC as my arch enemy. Further I have some common ground with most members. That doesn't mean I want them setting the agenda for our Party. I don't. However neither do I want Democrats in Congress to remain in the minority. In a Conservative district or State, I might consider a moderately conservative Democrat, who has sufficient personal integrity, worthy of a degree of my support. That would be a case by case call.

[genius]

27. That also explains why Salazar is backing Torture Gonzales.

[madfloridian]

43. You think Coors would have been better? I guess so. How sad.

.

[jpgray]

63. I thought DFA supported only those who stand up?

What was Salazar standing up for in this case? Sorry if I'm enjoying this, but the instant you get into strategically defeating Republicans, you have to support some people who aren't going to pass every progressive / "standing up and fighting for people not corporations" litmus test. It's sadly our reality--we need all the help we can get, and I'm glad DFA is committed to it, even if some members are (or were) not.

[madfloridian]

84. You are right...Coors would have been better.

Salazar was not a Dean candidate....the group gave him financial support. There is a difference.

We should have backed Coors. Right.

[jpgray]

85. So the lesser of two evils, Republican-lite, is a-OK with madfloridian

Howard Dean, you are a miracle worker.

[Radical Activist]

89. Isn't that what the DLC says?

"Hey, at least we're better than Republicans!"

The similarities are impressive.

[jpgray]

92. I think progressive adn leftist members of DFA can be proud of its actions

It's doing good and necessary things, and being progressive or leftist doesn't mean rejecting any and all people slightly to the right of you. DFA hasn't failed in its goals because it has a use for politicians who are helpless or even on the wrong side in the fight against corporatism. Progress is what this is about, and keeping Coors out in CO is definitely progress.

[madfloridian]

99. So you would have chosen Coors as well? You two keep making fun.

You would have let him win.. and withhold support from Salazar.

I don't mind being made fun of anymore. It is funny, because it used to hurt.

Now I see how you are making yourselves look, and I understand it is not hurting me at all.

[Radical Activist]

103. I disagree with you

but please don't think I'm making fun of you. I don't mean to do that. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
Sometimes I just enjoy a good political discussion.

[madfloridian]

114. I do not believe that.

I really don't care or mind at all, though. Just don't go after someone and call it discussing. Be honest.

[madfloridian]

95. So Coors was ok with you?

Coors was his opponent. Did you want him?

[jpgray]

100. Sorry. Of course not

As I said above, defeating a Coors in CO is real progress that folks can be proud of. Even if Salazar for my taste is a little too moderate and corporate-friendly, the son of right wing think tank funder extraordinaire Joseph Coors lost in a red state.

[madfloridian]

102. Well, thanks for that. BTW I am very moderate. Always have been.

DU has defined me as a crazy fringe leftist. I have always been quite moderate in most views, but always for the woman's right to choose.

I do not have a clue how this labeling of me happened...oh, wait I do. People defined me that way.

[leanin_green]

220. Well, on this point Coors' vote would have been the same. Hmmm?

So what did we gain for the progressive cause?

[paulk]

54. Not really...

Salazar, having just ridden the Latino vote in Colorado to his victory, is hardly going to attack another Latino who is being nominated for such a high office.

that's the political reality of it.

[DaveinMD]

29. Not everyone who joins the DLC is a moderate

some are rather progressive. Many politicians join every Democratic organization. The DFA supports many progressives. Some of these politicians are such.

[greenohio]

181. And not all moderates are evil. The DLC is not bad...neither is DFA

We're all Dems.

[NYCGirl]

30. OMG! Democrats helping other Democrats! Shameful!! How dare they

do such a thing?

Get a grip, people.

[DaveinMD]

33. ha ha ha

how true

[Telly Savalas]

121. Well, there are those on the lunatic fringe...

who hold the crazy idea that DFA and the DLC both have the primary goal of getting Democrats elected to office. These kooks have the audacity to suggest that even though the two groups have differences of opinion on how to realize this goal, their common mission could lead them to work together at times.

[greenohio]

142. Wow, DLCers being refered to as Democrats. Am I on DU?

Pinch me.

[fnottr]

38. A few things

First of all, DFA has never tried to present itself as an extremely leftist group, the stated goal of it is to return some power to the people, not to support only ideologically pure liberals.

Second, DFA was formed AFTER the primaries, so these candidates were already THE democrat on the ballot, they might not have been the one we would have supported in the primary, but it was too late for that, and better to have a moderate Dem than a hard core right winger.

Third, taking some money from the DLC doesn't necessarily make someone a DINO. While I might not like how they operate, if you're running a hard campaign and need money, you take it. Like it or not, that's just the way things work.

[FightinNewDem]

126. OK, repeat after me

The...DLC...is...not...a...PAC.

The...DLC...does...not...give...money...to...candidates.

[madfloridian]

42. The leaders who met in 88 have hijacked the party. Some members know.

That is Dean's premise, it has been mine. I compare it to my Southern Baptist church which is splitting now. Members were not aware.

If the members, like Roemer, deliberately run from the base, then I don't support them.

[greenohio]

141. "Members were not aware. " The excuses are piling deep. Can't they read?

Its in Prospect, several of the top blogs, and DU at any given minute. To claim they are unaware is another load of horsehocky.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. David Wu serves a district that consists of

the west side of Portland (very liberal) and all of Washington County, which is a combination of Republicanite suburbanites, lots of Asians and Latinos, most of what remains of Oregon's high tech industries, Nike, and a few farmers and loggers.

He voted against the IWR, but he has been disappointing on a few other issues. I'd say he's a true centrist.

[Cha]

46. Dean and DFA are supporting candidates

who they think are good for America. It's the stupid dlc that rags on Michael Moore and people like Dean.

[greenohio]

165. Therefore ergo...Dean and DFA are funding the stupid DLC

by giving money to their candidates so the organization can gain more influence. This puts us in a real pickle.

[RetroLounge]

48. Yawn, here we go again.

Serial Dean bashing continues, under the cloak of "Hey! Look what I found!"

"If the point of DFA isn't to support progressive candidates, then what is its true mission?"

Why don't you join up and find out? I believe it was to take back the Dem party. God forbid that includes some that don't pass your progressive left-wing Che-Avatar test.

There's nothing "radical" about Dean and DFA bashing.

RL

[greenohio]

140. "take back the Dem party"...from the ones DFA are funding? Fascinating.

Yawn. Shallow analysis of another who misses the point. DFA isn't so pure...helping storm troopers from the Death Star. Either DLCers aren't evil or DFA has some explaining to do.

[madfloridian]

50. Let's kick Dean and us out of the party. 1, 2. 3......kick.

That will solve all the problems of the party.

Ready...set....go. :evilgrin:

[janx]

60. MF, do you have a link for that great Capn interview with

Dean?

[madfloridian]

66. Here you go.

This link is from Break for News which links to the other site, and I can't get the other link right now.
http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/DeanInterview041230.htm

[no name no slogan]

51. Not suprising. Dean said DFA would endorse 'good' Republicans

I remember Dean saying that DFA could endorse "good" Republicans, if they felt they met their standards. This is one of many reasons why I've never felt that DFA was a 'progressive' organization per se, but more of a reform-minded, centrist group.

Do I wish DFA would focus exclusively on supporting liberal, progressive candidates? Sure, what liberal progressive wouldn't? However, that's not my call to make.

I guess that's why I'm not a DFAer, either. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

52. He said it many times...on TV, in speeches. A lot. No one listened.

It is a reform group.

[Radical Activist]

53. Exactly

And I wish that were more widely recognized. Instead DFA is usually referred to as a progressive or left wing group without mentioning that it also supports moderates and may sometimes support Republicans.

If people want an organization to move the party left, this is probably not the best way to do it.

[madfloridian]

57. He said in TV, for goodness sake....Over and over. Kick us out.

He said not left or right but move ahead.

But the party should get rid of all of us. Kick us all out now.

[no name no slogan]

Nobody's saying that

I personally DON'T want the DFA folk to leave. I think they have some very good ideas which need to be addressed by BOTH parties. However, I think it's disingenuos to refer to them as a "leftist" organization. If anything, they're part of what used to be known as the "radical middle".

To me, the DFA reminds me a lot of the post-Perot parties that formed in many states, usually under the Reform Party banner. They share many of the same issues and concerns, to boot (fiscal moderation and socio-liberalism). However, unlike the Perotistas of the 90s, the DFA is encouraging people to get active in the existing parties-- a far more pragmatic approach than forming yet another third party.

I share many of the beliefs of DFA, and encourage their involvement-- this is a democracy, and all voices need to be heard. But personally I would stop short of voting for a DFA-supported Republican over a Democrat.

My $.02

[madfloridian]

65. Well, actually it was a joke.

I am beyond caring about labels anymore. I was making a joke because it is so damn stupid here, attacking everyone.

[Geek_Girl]

68. I'm Not in the DFA

Though I have been to one DFA meetup. But I think that Howard Dean has the right idea about reforming the party from the bottom up. This could loosen the grip that corporate interests have on the party and the party platform could then reflect the values that are closer to the democratic base.

[Geek_Girl]

61. I thought the DFA was More about Party Reform

Not Left vs Right. That's just the impression I've gotten. Dean even seems more moderate than Kerry on some issues. The DFA is more about the grass roots reforming the party and pulling away power from the corporate interests.

[madfloridian]

64. It is about reform, and not ideology. Grassroots funding .

Very important.

[Telly Savalas]

122. As far as I know, it is.

Dean's fundamental message is that the government truly belongs to us and we can take it back if we choose to be more than spectators in the politcal process. If we don't get involved, then we cede power to the Man. (Well, alright, he never used the terminology of "the Man", but this was still pretty much his point.) This is a message that could appeal to people from almost anywhere on the politcal spectrum. Hell, it's a message that drew me from cynical apathy into the Democratic Party. I'm waaay to the left of him on a lot of issues, but I passionately believe his reform message trumps ideology.

[sandnsea]

62. Please note

Democratic liberals aren't left enough for some leftists. Their views are important, but they shouldn't try to identify themselves with Democratic liberals or progressives because that's not what they are.

[Radical Activist]

69. Then what is the purpose of DFA?

So a lot of people are pointing out that DFA was never meant to be an organization just to support progressives, in spite of the frequent portrayal that it is. If DFA supports candidates of all political stripes including DLC'rs, moderates and those who are not reform minded, then what is its purpose?

If Dean is a normal politician that plays by the conventional rules I would guess it goes something like this:

Dean: "You're welcome Bob, I'm glad DFA was able to help with volunteers and that check. By the way, I'm thinking about running for DNC chair..."

[madfloridian]

70. I have posted many links for you in the past.

Look up a speech he gave in Seattle on March 18, 2004, the announcement of DFA.

If you don't mind going to the blog, it is in the archives on the right hand side under March 2004.

It is still up at C-Span, a very exciting day for us. Huge crowd, lots of ovations.
www.blogforamerica.com

[Radical Activist]

72. I don't mind going to the blog at all

Here are some good quotes:

"Second, Democracy for America will be committed to promoting an America where candidates and office holders tell the truth about policy choices and stand up for what they believe. The era when politicians equivocate about matters as fundamental as war and peace must end."

"1. Recruit and encourage progressive candidates to run for office at every level. We will help them find the resources to campaign successfully with small donations from grassroots supporters, to begin to break the stranglehold special interests have on the political process."

"3. Develop strategic partnerships with other progressive organizations to maximize resources for candidate recruitment, training, and organization."

I think that's a good illustration of what I'm talking about.

[Tom Rinaldo]

73. I won't speak for DFA because I am not a member.

And I am not a leftist purist, so if that makes me not progressive, so be it. Someday, I hope America embraces Instant Run offs which will free more people to vote clearly in line with their personal beliefs, without sometimes hindering those beliefs (by helping the worst possible candidate defeat the second best candidate by voting for the best one even if that person is out of contention). Until then furthering progressive ends is a little more complex than just having the most progressive positions, or aiding the person with the most progressive positions. Results matter. Moving the Party to the left could include moving certain districts from Conservative to Centrist. Taking power out of the hands of special interests is progressive by nature even if the real people who get to begin making decisions instead don't always make "progressive" ones.

[NYCGirl]

75. Bravo, Tom!

:toast:

[madfloridian]

77. Define progressive and you have your answer.

Your goal here is to try to hurt Dean and us. You are hurting the party by your posts, not me.

[greenohio]

169. No. The goal is to get DLC haters to lay off.

Their golden calf funds them.

[messiah]

93. There is nothing funnier

than a gruop of moderate democrats (dfa) fighting with another group of moderate democrats (dlc) for power within the democratic party. This has to be a joke right?.

[madfloridian]

96. Sadly, no joke.

Very sadly.

[Radical Activist]

98. Kind of sad that those are supposed to be our main choices

And either way we get a moderate party.

[madfloridian]

101. I am a moderate, and I want a moderate party. Is that your problem?

That we are moderate? Now that is truly sad. Extremism on either side is quite dangerous, IMHO.

[madfloridian]

104. That is really why you are angry, isn't it? It really just hit me.

It is why you post almost exclusively about Dean and very negatively. It is why you try to denigrate us so much. It is about moderation. You don't like that, and you don't want it in your party. You are willing to stay on the attack about it.

The party does not need to be extreme right or extreme left...notice I said extreme, or perhaps radical is a better word.

I often get attacked on another board for being too moderate. I should have recognized the symptoms of this anti-moderation.

[janx]

108. Well some of us from the "mushy middle" are PISSED

and we're not going to "take it anymore" !!!!!

It's ironic that those of us who are centrists are the ones fighting the hardest now against the radical right.

But I suppose that since we are not donning ski masks and throwing rocks at banks, it doesn't matter.

[madfloridian]

115. Now that is funny. "mushy middle"

Isn't it scary that people like us, a teacher like me, and a professor like you, are considered radical because we are middle?

:silly: :silly:

[fnottr]

118. The difference between the DLC and DFA is not so much an ideological one

as more a operational one. For example, the DLC meet in lavish hotel ballrooms and raise money by holding exclusive $1000 a plate banquets that obviously attract people of great means. DFA meets in bookstores and coffee shops and raise money by passing a hat around metaphorically (and literally, at least at the meetup I went to) speaking.

Obviously the DLC method is going to get very few actual citizens involved, because they don't care about people who can only donate $20, $50, or even a few hundred dollars. DFA is trying to get more people actively involved by courting people of average income, in this way DFA will better represent the actual will of the left leaning population of a certain area.

This means that a DFA chapter in a deeply conservative area might be pretty moderate, but they will represent the views of a much more significant segment of the population, and thus will be much more likely to get a candidate elected. Even that candidate is rather moderate, DFA is not going to get behind someone who is full of shit, and I'd rather have a committed and moral moderate candidate than one who panders to the left but sells out after the election.

On the other hand, a DFA chapter in a liberal area will probably get behind a truly liberal candidate, and will be just as successful there. It's not a matter of 'moving left' or 'moving to the center' but rather having an organization run by a lot of average citizens who can get behind candidates who are committed to us on at least a few important issues, and who can actually win elections.

[greenohio]

147. Uh huh. So it makes sense for DFA to fund DLCers. I see it now.

The DLC gets its money easy from the rich ones. The DFA works hard getting from the common man/woman. It is only logical for the DFA to give power to the DLC by giving that hard earned money to DLC members.

The DLCers do a great job of getting elected, that is why there are literally dozens of them...and why the DLC has so much influence.

[latteromden]

105. My first thought was: "Lofgren is a DLCer?!" Not all DLC members are

moderates. It's the leadership that sucks, not necessarily the members. There are some decidedly liberal members of the DLC, and some that aren't quite moderates (e.g., Salazar really isn't as conservative as many here would believe).

On the other hand, you have to take into account the area they're in. "Progressive" means a different thing in Louisiana than it does in Minnesota, speaking from first hand experience. :X

[madfloridian]

106. My gripe has been with the purpose of the founding of the DLC...

I would post "How the DLC Did It" but it is not a good atmosphere tonight.

They needed corporate funding to not be dependent on the "traditional" parts of the party....can you say African Americans, labor unions, the poor....if they had corporate funding they could forget about them...

And they got it, and they did forget.

Most of the members have not really been that aware of what was happening.... the leadership knew.

[greenohio]

159. "They needed corporate funding "...not anymore. They've got DFA!

Dean's pac funding DLCers. Fascinating.

[ChiciB1]

107. I Joined My Local DFA

but as I said in another post. It DEPENDS on where you live as to just how PROGRESSIVE or even Left-Leaning they are. Where I'm at, they seem to be more DLC!

[janx]

111. It's less a matter of ideology and more a matter of

returning the democratic process to the people. All that DFA looks for in candidates is fiscal responsibility and social sanity.

Believe it or not, that's a tall order right now.

[ChiciB1]

120. Small question

Off the subject, but is your avatar of a retriever?? Just got an adorable chocolate lab and she's amazing.

Back to DFA or DLC, I'm a Democrat, will remain one, but am really "run of the mill" since I've been a Democrat ALWAYS! All the dissecting gets in the way sometimes, but when you're more liberal than most, it causes a few problems.

[janx]

128. No, he's a weimaraner. The pic is a little distorted.

And I love labs, especially chocolate ones!

[greenohio]

182. Thats great.

The DFA is a good organization. So is the DLC.

[Vadem]

110. What do you think about the fact that the DLC members are also...

looking for a more liberal group? Yes, they probably contributed to the DLC and maybe to the DFA also. Do you think it may be possible?

[madfloridian]

112. Bingo....many DLC members are looking...and looking...

They really did not understand what this group's leadership was really doing.

I believe that happened to Gore in 2000, I believe when Dean crossed them a lot woke up.

I think that is a lot of what DFA is about....to have a place for those who don't have one now. Many moderate Republicans disagree with me on just a few issues....and they feel lost about now as well.

[greenohio]

144. Pure unsupported naive conjecture. Are they illiterate? They can have

their names removed at any time, just a Obama did. Why haven't they? Are you saying the Freshman Senator is more in the know then a multiple term congressman/woman?

This doesn't even pass the smell test.

[elshiva]

117. Democrats helping Democrats is OK

moderate and conservative Dems in these races were better than Repubs in these races. It does not mean an out and out support of DLC as an organization.
Dean and Boxer are my heroes, but neither of them call themselves liberal. Dean actually is more likely to call himself a conservative (fiscally) in NPR interviews than a liberal!
DFA does a lot on the grassroots level. Again, as proud bisexual, you'll have to take my support for Dean and Dean Democrats out of my cold dead hands. Good politicians know when to compromise and when to stand for the issues.

[greenohio]

138. BINGO...even DLCers.

And that is the point, we need to work together and lay off DLCers. You have a problem with Al From, attack him, but not the entire organization, which includes many good Dems.

[welshTerrier2]

119. DU: way too obsessed with labels ...

look, it's important to research any organization ... if DFA claims to be the voice of reform, they should be thoroughly checked out ... so, to research the backgrounds of those they chose to fund is a good start ...

but the problem is, the research stopped well short of being useful ... instead, after providing only partial information, we get the usual uninformed bias ...

if you want to hold the DLC responsible for many of the ills of the Democratic Party, count me in ... the leadership from the top of the DLC is hideous ... i hate the disrespect they showed for those of us who protested the invasion of Iraq ... i think the DLC leadership has repeatedly used poor political judgment ... the sooner they are dethroned, the better off we'll all be ...

but to assume that DFA is not legitimate because they funded the listed DLC candidates is just plain wrong ... should the test be that they are DLC or should they be judged by their records ??? criticizing them for being DLC is only valid if that translates into actions you don't agree with ...

sooooooo, i did a bit more research on all but a few of the candidates on the list ... i suggest you do the same before you form any judgments about them ... if you're going to form opinions about the DFA, it seems to make sense to get all the facts before you do ... this is not an argument in support of or in opposition to the DFA ... it's an argument to urge DU'ers to do more research ... in my view, the candidates listed had records I think most DU'ers would approve of ...

here's a great place to see the positions and votes of the candidates on the list ... i especially like to use the "interest group ratings" to get a sense of the candidate's record ... the link is: http://www.vote-smart.org/

[greenohio]

137. You miss the point. You cannot claim to be pure and then

fund the Death Star. DFA supporters are all about NO COMPROMISE. DLCers are all about compromise, in their minds. This is an obvious compromise. Did you miss the thread where we were told to VOTE AGAINST ALL DLC candidates?

[rhite5]

125. Whoa. You are ignoring two political realities here

Dean made the request for funds for these and other candidates very late in the game, long after Primaries were over. These Democrats needed financial help because their re-election looked in danger. If any of these lost in this election, a Republican would replace them, increasing the Republican majorities in the House and Senate. There was no opportunity to replace them with a more liberal Democrat.

The other political reality here is that Democrats running in fairly conservative districts often feel forced to join the DLC because they need that funding and think they need that credential to win votes. This is especially true when a Dem has an opportunity to retake an open seat that was previously held by a Republican (VERY rare, but it has happened).

With the government structured as it is, both contributers and voters often have to hold our noses and support a less than pure Democrat in order to try to limit the size of the Republican majority. Sometimes we can even achieve a Dem majority.

The REAL problem is the structure that will not recognize third parties in the Congress. (Won't let them serve on committees, etc.) All committee chairmanships as well as the Speaker of the House can only be held by the majority party. It is an all or nothing ball game.

[Radical Activist]

127. Not at all

There are organization to help Democrats regardless of their ideology. If people want to help Democrats in general they can donate to the DNC, DCCC, or DSCC. They pursue the approach you describe, which is a good one.
However, DFA didn't bill itself as another DNC to help Democrats in general and build favors for Dean. It was supposed to support progressives. It should do that and leave the support of DLC moderates and conservative Democrats to someone else, or redefine its mission for the public.

I agree that the nation would be better off if we repealed many of the laws designed to bar third parties.

[madfloridian]

129. You have your facts wrong. You are very unfair.

Every one of those groups examines very closely the viability of each candidate. They do NOT just give money automatically.

What is your agenda here? DFA worked with some who were NOT considered viable by the the DSCC and DCCC and to whom they would not donate.

Dean supporters helped Richard Morrison, we donated to him, long before the DCCC decided he had a chance at all. Dean traveled to TX and rallied for many of the candidates there. Morrison made a difference, a big one, but it was NOT the party groups at first.

It was activists. My husband and I donated to him, so did our group here in Florida. The DCCC did not consider him to matter.

You are really bad about spouting stuff you know nothing about.

[greenohio]

134. Stop ignoring the point. DFA isn't as PURE as the worshipers say.

Or the DLCers aren't as bad as the DFA worshipers say. There is an OBVIOUS blind-eye, inconsistency here.

[greenohio]

132. I knew the DFA was just a DLC extension and Dean was a DLC plant.

The conspiracy crowd has to be going nuts with this one.

[cestpaspossible]

133. According to the DFA website, its mission is

to supporting fiscally responsible, socially progressive candidates at all levels of government—from school board to the presidency. DFA fights against the influence of the far right-wing and their radical, divisive policies and the selfish special interests that for too long have dominated our politics.

I guess it depends on how you define fiscally responsible, socially progressive.... which of those candidates do you not consider fiscally responsible, socially progressive and why?

I don't see anything on DFA's website about knee-jerk opposition to DLC members...

[greenohio]

135. Wow, in fact, that sounds a lot like the DLC. Maybe theres a connection

other than just money flowing from DFA to DLCers.

[Radical Activist]

139. That's not how Dean characterized it here:

When he announced the formation. Check out these quotes from that speech.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1476582&mesg_id=1476906&page=

So which is it?

[cestpaspossible]

146. Why did you duck my question?

I'll repeat it for you:

which of those candidates do you not consider fiscally responsible, socially progressive and why?



Also, I don't see any contradiction between:

supporting fiscally responsible, socially progressive candidates at all levels of government—from school board to the presidency. DFA fights against the influence of the far right-wing and their radical, divisive policies and the selfish special interests that for too long have dominated our politics.

and:

Recruit and encourage progressive candidates to run for office at every level. We will help them find the resources to campaign successfully with small donations from grassroots supporters, to begin to break the stranglehold special interests have on the political process.


You, on the other hand, seem to see some contradiction... could you please explain it to me?

[greenohio]

148. Your questions are imaterial. Supporters of DFA demonize DLCers routinely

meanwhile their organization funds them. What is wrong with this picture?

[cestpaspossible]

151. LOL so you don't want to engage in dialogue?

You'd prefer to erect strawmen? LOL

[Radical Activist]

155. Are you talking about

Dean? Perhaps the DLC bashing was a straw man to gain support from liberals despite his moderate views. But it isn't pandering when Dean does it. He has backbone.

[cestpaspossible]

158. LOL

you can't push my buttons, cuz you don't know where they are...lol, looks like you just wanted to post flamebait, not have an honest dialogue about DFA and the DLC.... I wanted to have a fact-based discussion, but, looks like I'm disappointed again.

[Radical Activist]

164. It's not that I don't want a fact based discussion

Its just that you had a weak point that doesn't change the premise of my post, which you avoid.

[madfloridian]

167. It is your mission.

To just yammer about Dean and us. Dean is out making a difference in many different ways. So are we. Sounds like you would rather pontificate a lot about things you don't understand.

Explaining to you, presenting facts, links, nothing matters.

Your mission appears to be to irritate and agitate. I would hate to believe that. Most Kucinich supporters are active and trying to make a difference. Aren't you one, or weren't you?

Your questions are answered, you twist the answers, and then you say they have not been answered. That is a trick which is annoying.

[greenohio]

197. Who is us? Is this some kind of cult?

The mission is to get the Deanie Babies (and other Dem haters) to get over the primaries, and lay off other Dems.

[Radical Activist]

210. A cult of personality n/t

[Radical Activist]

209. Presenting facts?

Like the fact that the DFA supports moderates instead of trying to move the party left? I think you only like facts that support your hero and disregard the rest.

It's amazing how many DLC bashing Deaniacs are suddenly rushing to the defense of supporting some DLC members after they found out that DFA has been doing that. I support progressive issues and the movement first, and political personalities second.

[greenohio]

157. Oh good a sense of humor. Not used to that.

What good does it do to list who thinks who is "fiscally responsible?" Lets say, for the sake of arguement, Sanchez fits the bill. What is your point?

[cestpaspossible]

160. I don't believe

that you really don't see my point.

[greenohio]

166. Are you having trouble making it?

Because it is escaping a lot of people here. Are you saying the DFA is consistent with their mission as stated on their website? I don't think anyone is arguing that. The problem DFA supporters have is that they demonize DLCers ROUTINELY. Now their org (DFA) is funding DLCers. If you have a point that actually matters...I really want to hear it.

[cestpaspossible]

173. No, and you aren't having trouble understanding it.

It's obvious to me that you understand me perfectly, however, it seems like you wish I were saying something other than what I'm saying.

[greenohio]

176. Now who's running from a dialog?

I thought you were saying something, but based on your last few opportunities to post something....I've decided against it.

[cestpaspossible]

177. LOL

You've already, in another post, come to the correct conclusion that we are totally in agreement... yet you still want to argue with me... have fun...

[greenohio]

179. Oh good. We are in agreement. DLC not bad, DFA not bad, we're all Dems

Good.

[Radical Activist]

154. Because your question misses the point

First, there isn't a contradiction between the two statements in my earlier post. The point is that Dean presented DFA as a progressive organization designed to support progressive candidates. Both of those quotes from his announcement speech demonstrate that fact.

Later that became "socially progressive, fiscally responsible" which is a little different, and finally in practice they are supporting DLC members after Dean gained support in the primary by denouncing the DLC.

The conclusion is that DFA presenting itself as an organization for progressive change within the party, which it does, is not an accurate reflection of what the organization is really about.

[cestpaspossible]

156. Wrong, my question steers the discussion towards facts

and away from vague, broad-brush smears.

And imho, that's why you ducked it.

[Radical Activist]

161. you mean vague, broad-brush smears

like attacking anyone in the DLC? That is part of my point.

It doesn't matter if any of those candidates are "fiscally responsible, socially progressive" because that is not how DFA is most often presented to the public by Dean and its members. So the question is irrelevant. The fact that you found a description of what kind of candidates they support that conflicts with other public descriptions of DFA proves my other point.

And if you want a specific example, Jim Matheson is conservative on social issues, so DFA doesn't even meet that standard. I don't mind him getting money but supporting conservative Dems in conservative areas is what the DCCC and DNC are for.

[cestpaspossible]

170. Yeah, that's what I mean.

Vague broad-brush smears like attacking anyone in the DLC.' Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Or attacking all DFA supporters as knee-jerk opponents to the DLC. That's also exactly what I mean by 'vague, broad-brush smears'.

Ok, you mentioned Jim Matheson and labelled him as 'conservative on social issues'.

But in our first-past-the-post system, the real question is "is Jim Matheson more conservative on social issues than his opponent, John Swallow"?

Who are we better off with in Congress, in your opinion, Jim Matheson or John Swallow? Do you think DFA should have not gotten involved with this race because of a particular position or positions taken by Matheson? Please be specific about why progressives should have wanted Swallow in Congress and not Matheson. TIA

[greenohio]

172. Oh good. So you agree that supporting DLC candidates is a good thing

as long as they are more progressive than their opponents?

If so, we are all in violent agreement.

The DLC isn't evil. DFA isn't evil for funding their members.

[cestpaspossible]

174. I couldn't give two figs about the DLC. nt

[greenohio]

175. How bout one? Could you give two figs about DFA?

Do you have two figs to begin with?

[Tom Rinaldo]

178. DLC isn't evil

More often than not I would agree on most things with most members. Most of the people who voted for Bush aren't evil either, though I would disagree with most of them much more often than with your average DLC member.

The Democratic Party is (unofficially) a coalition. In a parliamentary system it would break up into a number of distinct frequently allied smaller parties. We don't have a parliamentary system.

I consider DFA to be a progressive organization. For the most part the effect of DFA activism moves the overall coalition that is the Democratic Party further toward progressive stances. Certainly more consistently than the DLC does, but the organizations are not diametrically opposed on most matters, nor would I expect them to be. That is why they can both function within the coalition that makes up the Democratic Party.

The most progressive thing about DFC for me, and that which impresses me most, is the emphasis it places on getting rank and file Democratic Party members involved in the workings of our Party on a day to day basis. Like I said before, I see that as more than progressive, it is inherently a radical direction for the Party to be owned more by it's actual members directly contributing to the direction that it takes.

[greenohio]

180. Refreshing to hear. I have heard more unity today than in a long time.

DFA is a good org and they are not bad for funding DLC Dems because the DLC isn't bad.

[Radical Activist]

187. I don't believe the question

is whether Matheson is better than his opponent. The DLC has been getting by with "hey, at least we're better than the Republicans" for years. That has moved the party to the right and is what I understand to be a big part of the criticism against it by DFA members.

There are already organizations to support any Democrat against any Republican no matter how conservative the Dem is. The DNC and DCCC would have been the principle organizations to raise money for Matheson. My argument is not that we shouldn't fund those races, but that for DFA to fund those kind of races conflicts with what the organization was supposed to be.

Supposedly DFA was for funding progressive candidates. One would think they would stick to giving money to progressives and leave fundraising for conservative Democrats in difficult races to the DCCC and DNC. DFA is presented as an organization to fund progressive Democrats specifically and it doesn't appear to be doing that.

[cestpaspossible]

192. Not believing in something doesn't make it go away.

It was Matheson vs Swallow. Whether you want to believe it or not.

[Radical Activist]

195. No, it was DCCC funding v. DFA funding

Which organization is supposed to support candidates like Matheson and which is supposed to support progressives? Unless DFA is just another DNC or a vehicle to promote Dean's career. Its a matter of honesty.
Yes, Matheson is better but he's not the kind of candidate DFA was supposed to be involved with.

[cestpaspossible]

199. shrug

OK, it's become clear that this attempt at discussion is a waste of my time.

[Radical Activist]

201. I think you're more frustrated

that I'm unable to agree with your point.

[Freddie Stubbs]

145. Dean has always said that he is a moderate

Why doesn't anyone believe him? :shrug:

[greenohio]

149. I have also believed him. Its his supporters who

say that he represents a swing left...and then demonize DLCers. Meanwhile, Dean's organization is funding DLCers.

[greenohio]

168. Radical Activist...my hats off to you. I have never seen so many

people defend funding a DLC candidate on one thread. This thread may have done more on DU in a long while to promote unity in the party. I bookmarked it.

[Radical Activist]

188. I'm a little surprised

I wasn't sure what kind of reaction this thread would get. I do like shattering conventional wisdom with uncomfortable facts like this one.

[Cheswick2.0]

183. So?

Some democrats belong to every organization out there. Or they may have joined years ago and aren't active anymore.
Just another flame bait bit of bullshit from the usual sorces.

[greenohio]

185. DLC isn't satan. DFA isn't satan. We can work together to win.

The DFA is mature enough to see this. Why can't you be? Or does the hate just run too deep?

Do you have a single piece of evidence for the blather you just posted about these Dems "join every organization" or joined years ago and aren't active anymore? The fact of the matter is, they joined probably because they agree, at least in some part, with the premise of the org. I doubt they joined an org that they despise. If they did, just to get ahead, doesn't that still show a willingness to compromise their beliefs. Any way you slice it, your rationalization doesn't hold water.

[genius]

189. I guess DFA isn't all that progressive.

[greenohio]

191. Or, the DLC isn't all that evil

What a conundrum.

[Cheswick2.0]

211. I guess you are jelous

all those liberals who decided to support DFA instead of DK... How could they? After all, he was the "real liberal" wasn't he. He was the person who people would support if they just weren't "afraid to go with their heart"....LOL It's enough to make you want to wage your own private little battle on DU isn't it?

[John_H]

190. Oh. Ma. God. Politics! how grody! Party loyalty! Ew! Like, progressives,

would so not totally do, like, politics. Y'know, I was talking to my political science professor? And she said, like, at UVA, like when she was there? Like some people decided to actually do politics? And, like, the local chapter of the College Progressive Purists, were like "so let's totally, like, kick them out." And the would have, except, like, none of them showed up to vote? Anyway, like I so cannot believe that Dean is like doing politics? I mean, especially after we all had to buy those cool hats. Oh. Ma. God. That soooooo totally sucks.

[loyalsister]

193. National vs. local politics

As I was reading through this thread, I noticed what seemed to be a terrible confusion between the two. And incredible naivete about the real world of politics.
If someone joins an organization like the DLC, it usually means they pay dues and attend events. It gives them contact with lobbyists and potential doners, but it doesn't necessarily result in contributions, etc. Some public officials do that to find out the agenda of the doners and lobbyists, themselves.
They label themselves fiscally conservative, which can mean any number of things. For some, it just means that they think we need to get the deficit under control.
Local candidates do what they have to to cater to limited populations. The outcries here are astonishing. I live in one of the most liberal districts in my state. If I suddenly moved to a more conservative district, there is no way in the world I would write off Democratic candidates who voted less like I wanted to reflect the population of that district. I wouldn't like it, but if I moved that would be my problem. I am very much aware of the reality of that difference and what it means when it comes to my statewide candidates. Bottom line, live where you're happy with your local\state candidates if you're a rabidly radical leftist.
National candidates are a different story, the presidential candidates have to do the best they can to work with all of the different regional differences. I think they're obligated to show a spine and try to draw lines in the sand to reflect stark differences between parties on important basic levels that matter. For those who can't handle what they come up with, I guess there's always the 3rd party option.
This DLC war really needs to stop. It is naive and downright ridiculous.

[greenohio]

202. Good post.

I like the way you frame the debate as local versus national.

[loyalsister]

205. Thanks

I think understanding it in those terms might is a way to focus our energy on positive momentum.
It's time to work on cultivating candidates based on the best they offer, rather than focusing on searching for weeds.

[greenohio]

206. We need more positive momentum.

There seems to be so much negative/hate-filled energy.

[Radical Activist]

208. I think the political naivety

is in the assumption that there is some kind of significant difference between the agenda of Dean, the DFA and the DLC. That was one reasons I did that research.

Funding moderate Democrats in conservative areas is fine. That's what the DNC and DCCC do and I would expect that. But, if an organization states that its purpose is to promote progressive candidates and make the Democratic party more progressive then it should leave the funding of moderates to other Democratic groups. I don't think its naive to expect that. Later in this thread people started referring to DFA as a "reform" group which something new but probably a more accurate description.

[Andromeda]

194. Horrors! The very of idea of Democrats

supporting fellow Democrats.

This is unconscionable. And MODERATES yet. What is this world coming to.

Maybe I should just go and slit my wrists.

[greenohio]

200. Good to hear DLCers referred to as Democrats here.

It is a refreshing change.

[ibegurpard]

196. Newsflash:

A lot of DLC MEMBERS are not happy with either the leadership or the direction the organization has been taking. Ask Captain Sunshine.

[CWebster]

198. mumble, mumble...damn purist...mumble, mumble.

The DLC was the club to be in under Clinton- even Dean was in the DLC. So now if you want to endorse some Dems, the choices may be limited, but you still establish influence through funding. Got to start with what ya got.

[Radical Activist]

207. Establishing influence

Exactly. I get tired of hearing from politically naive people about how DFA is this great progressive organization to move the Democratic party left and take it back (from who?) while in reality it is a vehicle for Dean to gain influence from Democrats of all stripes. That is what this list establishes.

[CWebster]

212. So, if Kucinich were to organize and financially back

those with political aspirations it would be all about Kucinich?

Or would it be about building the party up from the foundation by offering more progressive avenues?

Dean is a pretty good populist--what is so wrong about him using that ability to engage and encourage others to get involved in the process? You seem to be of the opinion that what Dean represents is wrong.

[Radical Activist]

213. I'm all about truth in advertising

If DFA is about promoting Dean for whatever position he wants to run for in the future, then let's be honest about that. When he announced DFA it was described as a progressive organization to promote progressive Democrats. Its now clear that isn't true. An organization to promote Dean is fine and an organization to move the party left would be fine. But its not fine to have it be one thing and pretend to be another.
If you don't think the organization is about Dean himself, then why does he use DFA to support moderate members of an organization that many DFA members clearly dislike?

[CWebster]

215. You mean like when Kucinich

supported Kerry?

[Cheswick2.0]

216. maybe he means like when Kucinich supported Edwards

in Iowa.

[Radical Activist]

218. Again, using Bush's tactic

of attacking someone when you can't answer a charge. That's just a way to avoid the issue.

Kucinich didn't pretend that Edwards was something he wasn't. If Dean wants to support moderates that's fine but he shouldn't pretend that his group is for supporting progressives. Kucinich never pulled a bait and switch like that. His supporters could decide to help out Edwards or not. And Edwards is 10 times the populist that Dean ever will be.

[Radical Activist]

217. Going on the attack

is a way to avoid addressing the issue. Notice how Bush attacked Kerry every time someone made a point against him about Iraq? I guess you have no response to what I wrote.

Kucinich was very up front about why he supported Kerry and said all along that he would support the Democratic nominee. There was no bait and switch there.

[Capn Sunshine]

203. I don't want to beat a dead horse

but hand me that stick.
Many DLC members founding members like myself, are just disgusted with From and Reed and think they are pathetic.

Maybe you missed Howard Dean's statements on the subject in his recent interview:
The DLC is over. We don't fear them, no one except the wonks know who or what they are.

Membership in the DLC is not an automatic disqualifier for DFA support. Why should it be, any more than membership at DU?
What's important to us is that these guys have committed to joining us in taking the country back.

[valis]

204. Wow, I don't know you Capn Sunshine, but you make a lot of sense!

[greenohio]

221. What was your role

as a founding member?