National ID cards will erode liberty

[steve2470]

http://ydr.com/story/lcgf/55130/


You can thank President Bush and the Republican leadership for implementing a national ID card with biometric identifiers that make us less free and not one bit safer. In a recent speech at the libertarian based CATO Institute, congressman Bob Barr explained why national ID cards are not good public policy. He stated there has never been a study indicating national ID cards are legitimate or effective at stopping acts of terrorism. Countries such as Israel, Spain and Russia have national ID cards with biometric identifiers and each of them has had recent acts of terrorism.

The documented weak area for the 9/11 attack was the visa process. Just implementing the existing laws would have stopped several of the attackers from getting fraudulent identification documents. With this administration you can almost count on losing more of your personal freedom every time the media whips up some hysteria or a new “crisis� develops. First it was the Patriot Act, then Patriot Act II and now the national ID card. Remember how the Patriot Act was only going to be a temporary infringement on civil liberties because it had a sunset clause? Of course, now the federal government is pushing to make the Patriot Act permanent.

When the next crisis hits we will be one step closer to implementing checkpoints where federal agents can ask for “your papers, please.� It makes you wonder why a national ID card was pushed through in a lame-duck congress when there isn’t one study indicating national ID cards are an effective measure to combat terrorism. Benjamin Franklin stated, “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.�

RONALD L. GOODMAN
CARLISLE

This is actually a LTTE but a good one.

[jody]

1. If we also added a DNA sample, i.e. register every ID holder, wouldn't

that help solve any crime where a DNA sample is present?

That could solve more crimes than registering every firearm as proposed by many activists.

If we lose one right like the "right to keep and bear arms", we may as well lose them all.

[MercutioATC]

3. Programs like that work!

Over the last decade or so, jails have started booking people with a computerized fingerprint system that compares the inmates' fingerprints to fingerprints recovered at the sites of unsolved crimes.

I thought it was a great idea.

[jody]

4. A DNA data base could identify one's parents or relatives as suspects. n/t

[MercutioATC]

5. I don't understand what you mean...

Yes, family members have similarities in their DNA, but a DNA print is as individual as a fingerprint.

[jody]

9. I said identify them as suspects. A court ordered DNA test could then

positively identify or clear someone.

[MercutioATC]

14. Ahhh...gotcha.

[FreakinDJ]

8. I am sure the Russian KGB thought it was a great idea also

but then again I don't like Russia either

[jody]

15. So does England, it already has a DNA data base. n/t

[FreakinDJ]

22. Next you'll need papers to travel to adjoining states

just like in Russia

[DavidDvorkin]

11. Fingerprints are a problem

The underlying idea is unproven and has no scientific basis.

DNA is a different matter.

[RC]

7. Why does everything revolve around the 2nd Amendment for

some people?

Ain't nobody taking anybody's guns away.
After all, it is the Rightwingnuts that thinks that guns are the inalienable right of every person born to woman. And they are in charge at the moment.
Guns were not being confiscated when the more sane were in charge. So why worry now?

[jody]

16. Because RKBA is a divisive, contentious issue that involves an

inalienable right as recognized by sovereign states in their constitutions before they ratified our Constitution.

[aePrime]

17. And when people start to discriminate based on your genes?

I can see companies in the future asking for your ID card to run a background check (and lobbying for the right to do so). It'll turn into Gattaca. I don't want my DNA samples floating around out there.

[theycanbiteme]

2. File this one under "no shit"....

:eyes:

[FreakinDJ]

6. Won't slow down the boarder to the south

where Osama Bin Laudin himself could sneak across with a nuke strapped to his back.

Every thing else is pure bullshit until they do some thing about that.

Actually......

We lost the war against terrorism the moment we elected to diminish our own freedom

[RC]

10. Lost the war?

dimson is the head terrorist. And he hasn't been elected to his position yet, even after two elections.

[FreakinDJ]

21. WE LOST THE WAR AGAINST TERRORISM

there I said it again

The moment we gave up our rights, our freedoms, and our liberties, Osama Bin Laudin was able to tell his followers he was winning and the US can't stop him. He is gaining new recruits every day willing to give their life for Alla

Bush and his bunch of knee jerk idiot conservitives don't have balls to take on Osama. That is why they gave up and stopped chasing him in Afghanistan. All the Conservitive Knee Jerk "I support the Troops" bunch are the stupidist bunch of sheep I have ever seen. They don't understand Bush has made Osama famous in Muslim eyes and he is not going to go away any time soon. Actually the biggest dange we have is for Osama and his cause to be elevated to the status of a political party in that region of the world.

Will Osama and his followers strike again..... You bet your sweet ass they will.

Will it be worse then the 911 attack...... More then likely will

Bush and his misadministration has completely dropped the ball on nuclear proliferation and tracking the folks aquireing nuclear devices. It is only a matter of time.

The longer Osama remains at large the greater the danger to the US. The result is we gave up our freedoms and rights for what...... for ChimpBoy to drop the ball and leave us open for attack

[jody]

12. Don't forget Mexico's "Illegal immigration to the U.S. for Dummies”

Guide for the Mexican Migrant

[GreenArrow]

13. suitable for livestock

but not people.

[no_hypocrisy]

18. Why don't they just tag my ear like cattle, and get it over with?

[steve2470]

19. Will you accept a national ID card? - RW article, not too bad

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41987

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance."

-- Thomas Jefferson: Legal Argument, 1770. FE 1:376

Last week another gigantic step was taken toward the Sovietization of America. The so-called "Intelligence Reform" bill was passed by the Republican-controlled Congress. I feel confident in saying that 95 percent of Congress didn't bother to read this 3,000 page tome except the portions that guarantee pork to their big donors.

Beginning in 2005, the Department of Homeland Security, overriding the sovereignty of the states, will issue all driver's licenses and birth certificates that meet some "federalized standards" including biometric "security" provisions. Contrary to existing law, newborns will be automatically issued a Social Security number, which would force them into the federal taxing scheme called Social Security. All children will be denied enrollment in the government indoctrination centers (schools) without first supplying a Homeland Security registered birth certificate. If this doesn't chill you, it should.

Since the Social Security taxing scheme came into being back in 1935, no one has ever been required to join. The government has never automatically issued numbers because it has always been voluntary. Should this toxic bill get signed into law by Bush (a given), for the first time, Americans will be forced into this program against their will.

<snip>

This media source is normally a RW rag, but this article is decent.

[Pegleg Thd]

20. WE sure as hell

won't be applying for one of the nazi ID cards.......

[charlie]

24. Asshole wingnut

Only now, when it looks like the Republican's authoritarian impulses have brought us to the tipping point into the Sovietization of the US, does she rediscover the Big Gummint Paranoia that's long been the Right's raison d'etre. And she cannot, CANNOT, allow the blame to fall on her side -- that Hillary quote about "take things away from you on behalf of the common good" was about rescinding Bushco's TAX CUTS. It had FUCK ALL to do with the Republican headlong charge into the Fourth Reich. Sneaky, lying asshole...

[steve2470]

23. National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 (S.2845)

http://www.house.gov/rules/s2845confrept.pdf

<snip>

Sec. 7212. Driver's Licenses and Personal Identification Cards.
<snip>

(2)Personal Identification Card. The term "personal identification card" means an identification document (as described in section 1028(d)(3) of Title 18, United States Code) issued by a State.
<snip>

This copying manually is getting tiresome. Please read the pdf file.

[flordehinojos]

25. WHAT is a biometric identifier?

I know that years ago people who were given citizenship had their regular passpoart photos attached to their citizenship certificates. I also know that these days photos to citizenship papers have to have the right (or it may be the left) ear showing in the picture, although I don't understand what the purpose for that is, and i wonder if that is one those biometric identifiers that you mention.

[Kellanved]

28. usually either the fingerprints or the Iris

The iris being the better choice privacy-wise - one does leave fingerprints everywhere, not so "eyeprints".

[steve2470]

26. National ID Red Alert! - a libertarian article

http://www.lewrockwell.com/yates/yates99.html

by Steven Yates


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

~ Benjamin Franklin

The year 2005 is now less than two weeks away. It might be the year what is left of Constitutional government in America faces its greatest test yet.

The specific day most likely to live in infamy in 2004 was December 7. That was the day our ex-Trotskyite controlled Congress passed the so-called National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 (S.2845) – also called the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 – another of those multi-thousand page tomes all but unread by the vast majority of those who signed it. The Intelligence Reform bill was put together ostensibly in response to recommendations by the 9/11 Commission. Its official title as introduced: "A bill to reform the intelligence community and the intelligence and intelligence-related activities of the United States Government, and for other purposes." Inquiring minds want to know: what other purposes? One thing we can be sure of: this horrid bill contains things those in power have wanted for years, the things Claire Wolfe once called "land mine legislation," some of which were beaten back by public outrage in the pre-9/11 world.

A de facto national ID card, for example.

That’s right. The National Intelligence Reform Act orders the Department of Homeland Security to begin issuing "uniformity regulations" requiring that all driver’s licenses and birth certificates meet certain federalized standards, along with biometrics for "security" purposes. The provisions can be found in subsections 7212 and 7211 of the bill respectively. States will be ordered to include personal information about every individual, and this information will be used to build a huge federal database – giving unelected federal bureaucrats access to your information. In other words, your privacy – already severely eroded by the federal behemoth – will become a thing of the past in 2005. Control over the issuing of social security numbers (subsection 7213) will also be federalized. Also, the bill directs the Department of Homeland Security to establish separate standards for national ID used to board airplanes (subsection 7220). The ramifications here go well beyond the transformation of airports into fortresses we have seen since 9/11. It is just possible that as a result of this legislation, the feds will see themselves as having a green light to begin setting up road block check points. Below we will encounter reason to believe an "internal passport" to travel freely in this country is in the works. This could be one of those unstated "other purposes." If this runaway train is not stopped, be prepared to have to "show your papers," just like the cannon fodder that populated the former Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

<snip>

[steve2470]

27. must read verbiage from the new ID law

<snip>

(b) Standards for Acceptance by Federal Agencies.--
(1) In general.--
(A) Limitation on acceptance.--No Federal
agency may accept, for any official purpose, a
driver's license or personal identification
card newly issued by a State more than 2 years
after the promulgation of the minimum standards
under paragraph (2) unless the driver's license
or personal identification card conforms to
such minimum standards.
(B) Date for conformance.--The Secretary of
Transportation, in consultation with the
Secretary of Homeland Security, shall establish
a date after which no driver's license or
personal identification card shall be accepted
by a Federal agency for any official purpose
unless such driver's license or personal
identification card conforms to the minimum
standards established under paragraph (2). The
date shall be as early as the Secretary
determines it is practicable for the States to
comply with such date with reasonable efforts.

<snip>

[Kellanved]

29. I disagree

It all depends on the card. Continental Europe has ID cards and they have not eroded liberty so far. The contrary actually: the data stored on the cards can mean that it hasn't to be stored centrally.

I always feel far more controlled in the US - the mugshot when entering, the search in the database, ... no thanks.

[steve2470]

30. kick nt