So Kerry opted for the safety of Iraq rather than the danger of the senate

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Is that what those of you who call him a coward for not standing up are trying to tell me? There are certainly WAAAAY more hazardous places for a photo op..such as the halls of congress and that is where he should have been on Thursday?

Well...I guess I just can't buy that. On the day that Barbara Boxer stood up..John Kerry was over in Iraq standing up for leadership THERE in sharp contrast to George Bush who I believe was out pimping tort reform so that people deformed by bad medical care could suffer financially (some maybe even injured veterans) and advocating ripping off retirees via destruction of social security.

Kerry also visited Syria in an attempt to demonstrate diplomacy versus the "bush in the china shop" approach to foreign relations.

In my view HE WAS representing me even though he lost the election...I favor diplomacy over war...if all John Kerry does for the next four years is get out there publicly and stand in sharp contrast to George Bush...he will have fought for me....who knows? Maybe I should want more...like vile rhetoric...yeah...that will solve all the world's problems with America...right?

[tx_dem41]

1. Good thoughts. n/t

[daydreamer]

2. I love Kerry but he

and Edwards are lousy campaigners. Mrs. Edwards is a better campaigner than both of them combined.

[liberalpragmatist]

11. Sort of

I've seen Edwards. He's fantastic. Kerry is less impressive, but he's actually quite good. I've watched him at some CSPAN rallies where he was really pretty washed up and others where he was fantastic - I guess you could say he was inconsistent. Although I should note that I think he was a better campaigner than Gore was in 2000 (and that's coming from me - I really like Gore and think he may have actually be Bush's strongest possible opponent this year - the rest, Kerry included had, I think, similar strengths and weaknesses and are comparable).

But I do think Elizabeth Edwards is fantastic. As much as I love and admire Teresa Heinz Kerry, Elizabeth is a much stronger campaigner and a more compelling political "spouse".

[InvisibleBallots]

3. whoopdy-doo, Kerry does a photo-op - he should have apologized

to the troops for voting to send them there. When Bush and Rumsfeld go to Iraq, are they in any danger? Neither is Kerry.

[48pan]

33. In the Boston area they call him...

"Live-shot Kerry"

He's a Senator. He should be in the Senate doing his job.

[LittleClarkie]

43. The CONSERVATIVE newspaper, the Herald, calls him that

not the Globe. And no one who voted for him, I'm sure.

HE IS A MEMBER OF THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE. Being in Iraq IS DOING HIS DAMN JOB. Part of doing his job is know what the flying fuck he's talking about. Hence, he and several other congress people have gone to Iraq to see for themselves.

I'll thank you not to spout Right Wing garbage about a fellow Democrat. The least you can do is come up with something from the Left Wing.

[seaglass]

45. The Republicans do. Ask Denis Leary whether Kerry is

just a "live-shot" or the real thing.

[robbedvoter]

48. Why Dennis Leary? We can't use our brains based on his actions?

I am sure that his MIA from the election/Gonzalez votes was carefully planned to engender precisely this kind of defenses. He should have gone in Iraq BEFORE voting on IWR. Now, he was needed in the senate.

[blm]

51. Those working to denigrate the credibility of the IranContra and BCCI

investigations called him "Live-shot" and the rightwing whores in the press picked it up.

Kerry couldn't GET press coverage whenever an important revelation came up during IranContra and ESPECIALLY during BCCI, and he had very few Dems who supported the investigations so he had to find cameras to counter the constant stream of Reagan and Bush cronies who were spinning their asses off in the media.

Guess you had no clue that Kerry was also called a "conspiracy theory nut" constantly in the press during that time. So....WHO turned out to be telling the truth and WHO assured that history would have the info it needed to tell the that truth?

[whometense]

54. Thank you.

It's infuriating when dems adopt these lies and use them against their own.

[whometense]

53. That is an insult

invented by famed right wing whacko and long-time Kerry hater Howie Carr. He's a creep.

You should be ashamed for repeating it in a dem forum.

[mistertrickster]

4. Oops . . . on edit . . . forget what I wrote before, heh. Your heading

threw me off . . .

Kerry's no coward, that's for sure. I'll second that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. um...reread my OP...

[XanaDUer]

9. NSMA said *nothing* like this in her OP

...

[marcologico]

12. He ran, He lost. He's sorry. Grandstanding won't change things.

Litigation and investigation might. Try to get that through your head. 2004 was not 2000 for reasons brought up in dozens of threads. It wasn't close enough to contest. Okay?

[InvisibleBallots]

19. he could have said "Diebold" before the election

He could have mentioned the words "paper ballots" - he chose not to. That's the difference isn't it?

[marcologico]

25. So Fox could lead with a "Kerry cries wolf" story?

Think about. Bush controls the press, the congress, the courts, the election operations in key swing states. Kerry ran a good campaign and managed to keep his base and win enough swing voters to at least take the blue states and probably a few reds, all in eight months. If he thought he could also fix the ballot problem I'm sure he would have, but that's what he's working on now.

[shawcomm]

21. That's a ridiculous assertion

"it wasn't close enough to contest"

Because it was only 'not close enough' due to fraud. Take away the fraud and it would have been 'close enough'. People continually base their arguments on a faulty position. Augh!

[marcologico]

27. Okay tell me where those 3.5 million votes are hiding, I'd love to know.

You can't win without votes and the votes weren't there, period.

[shawcomm]

31. What?!!

We didn't need 3.5 million votes to win. What the fuck planet are you on?

Ohio was stolen by a little over a hundred thousand votes. Fraud with voting machines, overcounted shrub votes and discarded Kerry votes would have covered that difference easily.

[marcologico]

34. They were counted and recounted and he's still 119,000 votes short in Ohio

so tell me where he's going to find them.

Look I'm not disputing that they were stolen. What I'm saying is that there's no way to find them without lengthy legal investigations, which is why he wants us to call or write to Hastert and Frist. Have you?

[Cookie wookie]

35. they're stored in vaporland

where MS Access databases, which the voting machine companies use to aggregate and count the votes, can have their way with them.

If anyone with power, like the Dems in Congress and the DNC/DLC, wanted to find them and went to any length including impounding voting records and machines, using the court system and starting with Ohio, bets are on that they would find enough votes or evidence of votes for Kerry to change the outcome of the election. Perhaps eventually this will happen anyway, even without Kerry's tangible support (since his words and his actions do not match up).

Look how the repubs aren't giving up in the Washington governor's race. Every time the dems have it the repubs fight. When the repubs have it, the dems lay down and surrender without a fight, except for African America (take a bow).

[marcologico]

36. The courts in Ohio are as rigged as the election operation.

Sure maybe they're still floating around somewhere but finding hard evidence is going to take months of investigation and litigation.

[BrainRants]

5. THIS is what framing the debate looks like!

Well said.

[KittyWampus]

7. Photo Op= Delay Demanding Some "Destruction In The Back"

it's as if Kerry is standing in as the "Shadow President".

I have faith in him still.

Hope he's caught up to speed with the necessity for controlling Electronic Voting.

[marcologico]

8. THANK YOU! n/t

[buddhamama]

10. i was upset

upon hearing Kerry would not be at the Joint Session on Thursday.

after reading the opinions of DUers, and some refelction, my own opinion changed. Thursday wasn't about Kerry but Democracy. Our Democracy and Freedoms have been under attacked by this war in Iraq, in the same manner and attitude as the stolen election. So, yes, in that sense Kerry is doing his part to counter and defend us against this Administration by use of diplomacy as you said Teena, and continuing to speak out.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Thanks....

I know you and I differ on many matters and that he wasn't your first choice...but your reflections at least tell me that you are being fair...I COMPLETELY appreciate that. :thumbsup:

[buddhamama]

20. Hey,

We don't disagree on that much, i never thought so anyway.

You're correct Kerry was not my first choice. Once he became the nominee though, I was behind him 100%. He is a exceptional Man and, I respect him immensely.

:loveya: Teena.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. I knew that

:loveya: back atcha..we just took different routes to similar values ;-)

[alvis]

13. He could have gone to Iraq any time he wanted.

He could have done all these diplomacy/photo ops before 1/6 and could have been back in time for the joint session and stand up with Barbara Boxer. He chose not to have been in the country at all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. Yeah...and...the outcome would have differed how?

[XanaDUer]

16. It would not have been different.

...

[alvis]

17. He could have showed some fight.

[The Zanti Regent]

18. He didn't want to win.

Right from the start he had no desire to defeat Bush, he wanted to get his Bonesman pal back in the White House.

He voted to send my only child off to war for his Bonesman buddy's oil stealing scheme. Now my only child is dead. One day, I hope that Kerry will come clean and admit to this, until then, he and his bilderberger pal Edwards can just f&*k off.

The goodwill truck came yesterday and took my child's things away. I'm hoping other families can use them. I sit here looking at the rain in Los Angeles and I keep thinking of 19 years wasted with my boy, the hurt I have in my heart is almost unbearable

[NYCGirl]

23. Your time with your son wasn't wasted, Zanti. Don't ever think that. NT

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. I am so sorry and can't argue with your sentiments or your loss

[InvisibleBallots]

26. too bad about Edwards

When he got "made" in the Bilderbergers I was really disappointed - I really thought he was one of us? :shrug:

[cruadin]

28. I am truly sorry for your loss. I realize how inadequate...

any words I could write are to the measure of your grief.
I will have have you in my prayers.

[murray hill farm]

29. I am so sorry for your pain...

I have a son in Iraq now...and you dont hear much about the toll on the moms and the families with loved ones taken to fight and die in this mess...and i am so sorry that this has cost your your son..u are in my thoughts.

[Cookie wookie]

38. The republicans would have had a hard time

using Kerry's words against the challengers. That's exactly what they did, and it hurt. It hurt the process. It cut like a knife into the spirits of those idealistic Kerry supporters, like myself, who trusted in him and believed he would fight for our votes, because he said so and because of the bravery evidenced in his past, like fighting in Vietnam and then coming home to protest.

We have to judge men by their deeds, not by their words. Just look at the republicans worshiping Bush because he supposedly is saying the right thing, that is as much as his scripters can keep him on track, even though what he and his policy does is the opposite.

[TheDonkey]

30. Here, Here. He is doing what a president should be doing

he's not hiding in Boston licking his wounds but touring a land in chaos in hopes to make it better.

[w4rma]

32. Does it matter? He wont be running for president ever again after his lost

chance this time.

[zulchzulu]

37. Thanks for remnding us that Kerry IS on our side

I scratch my head at the people that continue to diss Kerry and bash him like little spoiled children.

Kerry is on our side. Somehow someone who nearly won against so many obstacles and will continue to be one of the most liberal, progressive Senators we have is still seen by some people as not good enough.

It would sicken me if I didn't really know the reasons why the various Kerry bashers continue to keep the eye off the ball...we need to move on. 2006 is and should be getting our full attention.

[IronLionZion]

39. There's no point trying to reason with those people

they're just a bunch of immature, angry assholes who like to shit on everything. pun intended

[LittleClarkie]

44. Right on. Esp. if they're going to quote freaking RNC talking points

That's just insane.

The motherfucking Herald for fuck's sake. "Live Shot." Someone here just called him "Live Shot."

Fuck FUCK FUCKFUCK!!!

[IronLionZion]

50. I'm convinced at least some of them are freeper trolls

who just stir up the rest of them to attack Democrats. Then they sit around drink Bud and laugh at us.

[Cookie wookie]

40. He is not perfect.

That's what he's shown. I've been angry about his behavior after the election, but I don't consider myself a Kerry basher. Blind following of anyone is a treacherous path.

It is a problem when Democrats bash other Democrats, but part of being a progressive is that we examine, we learn, we grow.

Kerry was wrong not to stay in and fight for lawful vote counting and even a re-vote in states where laws were clearly violated in the election, including Ohio and Florida.

We don't know what his advisers told him, or how he came to his decision except by his words, which have not satisfactorily answered those voters who have valid questions about the wisdom of his decision, and actually needed him to stand up for votes even if it wasn't wise for him politically. He did the right thing about Vietnam, so it's expected that many of us believed he would do the right thing about insuring that this election was legitimate.

Bobby Kennedy was a different man when he first became Attorney General during John Kennedy's administration. He changed and became a better human being over the course of those years because he looked deep within himself and worked to correct those things that he found that were blind spots where he could see through the glass only darkly or even were moral flaws in his character.

If we don't demand that of Kerry, then we are no better than the repubs who blindly follow their leader without question -- who fear internal, moral self-examination. Progressives hold our political leaders accountable without that rigidity. It is right that we do hold politicians to high standards, as it is up to us to put enough pressure on them to measure up to what democracy demands.

The Maginot Line in France in WWII has become a metaphor for failure because it did not stop the Germans from taking France in 1940 <http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues97/jun97/maginot.html>.

However, a greater failure was that of imagination of the kind of threats that would come from advances in warfare technology that would trump the Maginot Line -- the Germans circumvented it.

That's what the republicans have done with elections. They have circumvented the law and election processes to produce illegitimate victory after victory. Kerry and his advisers and those politicans who followed their example did not draw the line at this election battle. That was a serious tactical mistake.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. I very much agree with most of what you have said

We don't know what his advisers told him, or how he came to his decision except by his words, which have not satisfactorily answered those voters who have valid questions about the wisdom of his decision, and actually needed him to stand up for votes even if it wasn't wise for him politically. He did the right thing about Vietnam, so it's expected that many of us believed he would do the right thing about insuring that this election was legitimate.

Bobby Kennedy was a different man when he first became Attorney General during John Kennedy's administration. He changed and became a better human being over the course of those years because he looked deep within himself and worked to correct those things that he found that were blind spots where he could see through the glass only darkly or even were moral flaws in his character.

If we don't demand that of Kerry, then we are no better than the repubs who blindly follow their leader without question -- who fear internal, moral self-examination. Progressives hold our political leaders accountable without that rigidity. It is right that we do hold politicians to high standards, as it is up to us to put enough pressure on them to measure up to what democracy demands.

I was HUGELY disappointed when the concession came so soon..and I agree that we DO deserve to see something in return and that we SHOULD examine whether we were let down or abandoned...I simply feel that there is evidence that we have NOT been abandoned and feel that he deserves at least some REASONABLE time period to make good on it...calling him a coward or sell out two months after he campaigned and worked tirelessly for 600 days and came [] this close is not a reasonable allowance...and the name calling part "coward" "sellout" etc really is over the top for me.

[flpoljunkie]

41. Excellent post. Bush out shilling Amerikuns for the next "Big Con."

We have learned not to count on the press to educate the American people. Those in he press who understand what Bush is attempting to do vis "saving/privatizing Social Security" and "tort reform" must not stand down. Bushco surely will not!

[robbedvoter]

46. Speaking of Syria, he sponsored the Syria act (invasion free ticket

to W) - already approved by congress.
He might have represented you on this trip, but not 57 millions of voters who were robbed. Nice pretzel twisting though.

[Q]

47. The senate WAS more dangerous for Kerry...

...or at least for his political career. He was out of the spotlight of the fight for election reform and safe from barbs from those he will have to work with later to turn our government over to the corporations.

[jonnyblitz]

49. I derived pleasure in reading that the troops greeted him warmly

and appeared to be receptive to his message of disagreement with the administration's war policy thus refuting the theory that all troops are bushbots (somebody posted a link to a San Francisoc newspaper siting this) It's simple as that for me. :shrug:

good post.

[Cookie wookie]

52. Wouldn't hurt to have some faint

idea of how the troops actually voted. I haven't seen anything, has anyone else?