Re: The Kerry debate...

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/011105W.shtml

[genius]

1. Personally I feel betrayed by both John and Cameron Kerry.

I read that release that Cameron sent out dated January 6th. It appeared to discourage a vote to overturn the Ohio electors. I don't want Bush for President. After the election, John Kerry seemed to do his best to make sure that Bush would be President. I'm sure the Bush supporters are now delighted with Kerry. Most of those of us who worked hard to put Kerry in the White House, don't want anything further to do with Kerry.

[stray cat]

2. I don't - and I would fight for him again and for other good candidates

[politicasista]

3. Me too

I was disappointed that Kerry conceded too soon and felt somewhat betrayed by him, but I have begin working my disappointment towards hoping the truth will be revealed and this criminal administration will exposed as a fraud and for who they are.

[Skink]

5. Maybe Bush will appoint Kerry to Defense secretary....

Once Rumsfeld is gone they'll be looking for some loyalty.

[New Earth]

8. omg

:eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

33. Oh my darlin' Oh my darlin' Oh MY DARLIN' Democrats

You are lost and gone forever. Dreadful sorry, Democrats.

(the Whiner 49er theme song)

[The Gigmeister]

24. Speak for yourself.

"Most of those of us who worked hard to put Kerry in the White House, don't want anything further to do with Kerry."



I would say it's a LOT closer to a "Fraction of a percent" than "Most".

[LittleClarkie]

31. They do tend to overpopulate themselves without proof, don't they

What is that fallacy? (...googling...) Ah, argumentum ad populum or the appeal to popularity.

Perhaps a majority of the fraud folk, which is not necessarily a majority of the folk who fought to put Kerry in office, don't want to have anything more to do with him.

However, in my immediate vicinity, I don't find this to be true. Even so, of course, my friends and neighbors aren't representative either. But at least I know that ;-)

I'd still like to see a poll in support of the conclusion that "most of us are done with Kerry." I don't think it exists, however, and without it, I won't accept the ancedotal evidence as conclusive.

(What the hell just happened to me? Why did I slip into "college thesis" mode? Eh, whatcha gonna do.)

[LittleClarkie]

30. Of course you do dear

I didn't think you'd changed in the last five minutes.

And also of course, mine hasn't changed in the last five minutes either.

So there we are. You feel betrayed. I feel hopeful.

We will have to wait a while to see which is right.

I will conceed that perhaps our boys might not be quite wiley enough for this fight. I can't decide if they suspect things they can't prove, or if they're anachronistic, and too old-school for this fight. Either way, I don't feel betrayed. I'm just saddened at not having the president I wanted. Even so, I'm digging the "shadow president" routine I'm seeing in the Middle East. I hope he keeps that up. It makes Bush look like a shmuck.

[KC21304]

4. I guess some feel if we don't find enough evidence to

overturn the election it is Kerry's fault. I guess he is suppose to be spending his days and nights, personally out looking for it.

[New Earth]

7. lolll

[Sterling]

27. I guess he is suppose to be spending his days and nights,

Yes it would be good if he took an interest. It's fellow DUers that have no clue what is going on that truly encourage me not to give a shit.

[recovering democrat]

6. Not disappointed in Kerry now.

It is difficult to be the person who did not lose, but yet lost. Doing the right thing is hard. Kerry's integrity in staying out of the challenge is to me, unquestioned. Had he challenged, the Republicans would be fighting about sore losers with some effectiveness. Kerry's absence from the fight gives us the moral right to fight for election reform.

I am not disappointed in him now. I just hope he stays angry and focused on intelligent debate about the same issues on which he campaigned. The angry Gore has a powerful voice. I look forward to the powerful voices of Kerry and Gore combined. I will be disappointed if Kerry fades away into the background. He still has much to say and do.

[New Earth]

9. i am somewhere along the lines of agreeing with your post.

you said it for me. i'm not 'done' with him yet, and i still think and hope he is going to 'pound' this administration like he's said he would.

[stellanoir]

10. to responders 1,2, & 3. . .

None of us are happy with the outcome of this election.

Those of us who've been deeply troubled by the use of EVM's since HAVA passed, saw the writing on the wall long before November 2nd.

Intuitively, I knew with the production and control of the EVM's by GOP partisans that Kerry would have to win by 30% to actually win. I did however underestimate the widespread and incredibly systematic disenfranchisement of voters. Silly me.

But consider this, since people have been made more aware of what transpired during the certification of the electors in early '01 since the release of Fahrenheit 9/11, one thing has become entirely clear.

I can only imagine that Gore encouraged Senators to not contest then because he had faith in the system and wanted unity in the country. That was in retrospect, short sighted. He had no clue about the degree to which ** would gut our democracy, our economy, our environment, our so called "moral supremacy" (etc) so swiftly.

Kerry knew he couldn't fight this without evidence. Without paper ballots, we have no documentation and thusly have no evidence.

Long term election reform is the goal. In absense of that, we have digressed to a situation of taxation without representation.

In an instant gratification society, it's very hard to think "long term."

I feel that Kerry is playing it smart and the truth will indeed come out in the end. Yes I am a deluded optimist.

Keep the faith please because it's the only way we'll resurrect what once upon a time was a great model of democracy.

eom

[politicasista]

12. I agree Faye and stellanoir

The truth will be revealed.:)

[KC21304]

15. Thank you. Will keep the faith .

[Old Mouse]

21. Good post

Very insightful.

But I think Kerry's real problem, and that of most people who are deeply involved in politics, is an inability for an unprejudiced examination of the system. They trust the safeguards will ultimately protect against catastrophic failure.

We activists and bloggers have a disconnect from the political machine that allows us the clarity to see how badly broken the system truly is. The audacity, scope and success of this attack on democracy is difficult to believe for many who have spent years in public service.

If Kerry and the other Senators truly understood that what is happening today is not politics as usual, they would not have wasted the rare opportunity of media attention; Contesting in Ohio and challenging the certification in Washington were chances declined for fear of losing prestige they haven't noticed they no longer have.

I am trying to follow your optimistic lead, but whenever I hear that fascist monkey spread his evil, giggling hate, I fear we have just begun to calculate the full extent of the damage he is to commit, and have again misunderestimated the speed at which he plans to commit it.

[HeeBGBz]

11. I still haven't taken my Kerry bumper sticker off my car

But I've considered it.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[politicasista]

14. Mean.

x(

[KC21304]

16. And may your sentiments be returned to you

a hundredfold.

[rockymountaindem]

18. Screw you.

Ja, Kaiser?

[troubleinwinter]

19. Nice post, for your FIRST DAY

Are you still here? Buh-bye :hi:

[Fla Dem]

23. They are here by the hundreds. Negatively commenting on many issues.

It is amazing how may new members there have been just since the election. Only a small percentage have offered any positive comments. Most seem aimed at inciting dissension among true DUer's.

[Leilani]

17. Very Interesting!

Thanks, Will.

It sounds like they really don't believe there were enough votes "stolen" or whatever, to overturn this thing.

I agree with his point about 3 million disparity in popular votes. It would have been near impossible to make a case with that kind of difference.

[Nothing Without Hope]

20. Thanks, Will. No surprises, but some clarifications and evasions

One of the questions Will asked is what we would all like to ask: "Does it surprise you that Senator Boxer was the only Senator to vote against certification?" Cam Kerry did not answer this question but just sort of emitted some disconnected phrases. That's because there IS no satisfactory answer. The fact that so few representatives and only a single senator stood for Ohio election investigation is shameful, pure and simple.

Elsewhere in the interview Cam Kerry also puts forth the now-familiar line that (I'm paraphrasing here) the margin of votes could not have been made up by addressing fraud and suppression. As he put it in one place, "There was enough of a margin in Ohio that I think we could have closed that margin but would still have been some tens of thousands of votes short."

I said then and I still say now -- how can they know this? Even with their famous army of "lawyers on the ground" (as if flitting on angel wings were an option), they could and did NOT. Even grounded lawyers require time and effort and skill to gather evidence. And the first evidence was just BEGINNING to come in at the time when John Kerry conceded. This is my single biggest disconnect with what the Kerry circle says. They claim it would have made no difference to fight for election fraud/suppression investigation, and there is absolutely no basis to this self-justifying claim. It's an excuse, not a fact, and I am very tired of hearing it.

John Kerry may think he has all sorts of credibility as a flag-carrier for aggressive fighting against election fraud and voter suppression of all types. But by his actions and inactions, he took himself out of that fight, the more so because he promised so emphatically that he would see to it that "every vote is counted." He was zipping off that battlefield before the dust had settled. He left the army and the conflict behind without engaging, let alone closing, the fight.

And he thinks he's still leading legions of trusting followers? Hello? John, you need to look in your rearview mirror. The crowds you think you see in there are a lot smaller than they appear to YOU.

Will, thanks for this interview. No surprises--did we really expect any?--but some helpful confirmations and clarifications. I did think it was rather funny when, asked about the status of the Yost case in Ohio, Cam Kerry responded,
"No, I haven't heard. I have been in pretty regular touch with the Ohio lawyers, but I haven't talked to them in a week or so, so I haven't heard."
Obviously, investigating the Ohio election fraud is a really high priority with the Kerry inner circle, right? Yeah, sure. Yesterday's news, just like he is with me.

[ClarkUSA]

28. Well-said.

[tavalon]

29. As well,

by conceding so quickly, he made it seem as though the only reason to fight on was to get elected, not to make sure all the votes got counted. This cause would be miles further (IMO) if Kerry had stood and fought with us, even if he got plastered with the sore loserman label. He cut us off at the knees. To our credit, we got up fromit pretty damn fast but he could have spared us that one, I believe, by "watching our backs", "turning the boat upriver" and my favorite, "reporting for duty".

I don't think he made the right choice in conceding that quickly. I do think he made the right choice in not being anywhere neer DC on January 6th.

BTW, I just got some new (to me) information that makes my support of Kerry sting just a bit right now, so it's likely that the pissyness you might sense here really is here. I'll need a few days of processing to get to a more balanced view.

[saltpoint]

22. Our ticket shone next to GOP's duo of death --

-- and our two Johns are not to blame for red staters lining up for hours in the damn rain to vote for a man who lies about war and weapons, and who is not dedicated to the spirit of public service. After Abu Ghraib, NO ONE should have supported the Republican ticket.

Those votes swept away the nation's chance to put grown-ups in the White House.

If there's a vote tomorrow morning, I'll stand again for our ticket.

-----
edit: typo

[marcologico]

25. hey great interview. (n/t)

[zulchzulu]

26. Thanks Will!

We need to get a page of the timeline where Kerry DID actually do some things to look into the election issues.

I do wish kerry had something on his site to show his efforts in a timeline format, but I'd like to see one done anyway. I know you and Truthout have been following the efforts.

[robbedvoter]

32. "focus on issue, not on John?" Huh? I thought "John" was a senator.

Does he have a job orwhat?