Dean or Green? How Many Others Feel the Same Way?

[David Zephyr]

I saw where Demrock6 here at the DU posted "Dean or Green".

Listen, I sucked it all in and went, once again, with the Party after Howard Dean was defeated in the Primaries...only to see GW Bush win another four years anyway.

I've been so at the edge of leaving the Party anyway for years, after working my heart out and giving thousands upon thousands of dollars to our candidates that this contest for Chair of the national party is quickly becoming the acid test for me.

Am I alone?

Are there others that would go Green if not Dean?

[LisaM]

1. No - and one reason is, Dean's environmental record was WORSE than Kerry's

I read an article that listed him as "toxic" to the environment.

[WI_DEM]

4. He had a good record as Governor of Vt

yes some of the more radical elements didn't think he went far enough, but a Governor has to consider may things. Vermont is a very Green state and Dean would not have been consistently elected Governor if he didn't have a good record on the environment.

Now to the question of whether I'm Dean or Green, No. I'm a lifetime Democrat and if Dean is not the DNC Chair, I hope he runs for president, but I wouldn't automatically vote Green if he isn't the nominee. It depends on who runs.

[genius]

27. Dean put corporations first before the environment

These are just a few of the articles that were previously discussed in du about Dean vs. the environment.

http://www.vtce.org/ruinenvironment.html

http://www.vtce.org/deanoncoal.html

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/Columnists/Sam/03240...

http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html

[Kolesar]

6. I would like to see that article

I read a "good amount" about his environmental record a year ago during the primaries.

[blm]

15. By that standard, ALL the candidates had worse records than Kerry

on the environment, not just Dean. Kerry's lifetime enviro record was the best ANY Dem nominee ever had and that is why RFK Jr. endorsed him so early.

[David Zephyr]

16. Kerry has a sterling record with regards to the environment.

[LisaM]

17. Which is why it doesn't make sense that the two choices are Dean or Green

Anyway, here is a link to an article (not sure if it's the same one)

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Jan04/Frank0124.htm

[genius]

26. Interesting poll. The Greens don't like Dean. Dean's bad on environment.

The Greens also don't like Dean's death penalty position. You might try one of the more conservative third parties.

[mike_c]

2. voted yes, but it's a moot point-- I reregistered months ago....

eom

[Kolesar]

3. I am a Democrat...eom

[Downtown Hound]

5. Green? Nah,

I love the Green Party, but I think it's better to try and reform the Democratic Party. It would take the Greens years if not decades to get to where the Democrats are in terms of power and influence. We have a party that's already established, we just need to take it back. And we are, slowly, but surely. We're having enormous success at the grassroots level. It's only a matter of time before that translates into the national level.

[David Zephyr]

8. What Power? What Influence?

The Democrats do not control even one single committee in either the House or the Senate.

The Democrats are a pathetic minority now in both houses of Congress.

The Democrats lost by a bigger margin in 2004 than in 2000 in the Presidential race.

What power? What influence?

[Downtown Hound]

25. We're winning local elections all over the place

But look, I'm really not going to waste time trying to convince you. If you want to go green, then fine. But I'd like to ask you, exactly what power and influence do the Greens have? And don't bother saying the Ohio recount. That recount was a fraud, it was never meant to get to the bottom of what the actual vote count was. But go ahead, I'm not stopping you.

[ClassWarrior]

7. If you haven't run for an office with your county Dem Party...

...you're just another spoiled American whining about how someone else isn't doing your work for you. I don't care how much money you've given. How much of your heart, mind, and soul have you given?? That's the real test. Be the change you want to see.

NGU.

[David Zephyr]

10. Far More Than You Could Even Imagine.

I was on my county's Democratic Party Steering Committee for over a decade...just a little, tiny county...Los Angeles County.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. Election reform at the grassroots level is all that matters now.

There's nothing left for progressives but to rebuild this system from the ground up.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Save this nation one town, county, and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm#why

[stray cat]

11. I'm sticking with the democrats

Regardless of who they choose for DNC - the party is the only way we can beat the radical conservative republicans. I'd vote for a moderate republican before I would go with the green party.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. So go...

and why hinge it on whether or not Dean gets the job? There's a lot to be said for the Green Party and they could do a lot on the local level.

Nationally, though, they're way below the radar. Dean might be, too. But, hey, if lost causes are your thing...

[David Zephyr]

14. Supporting Both.

Most recently I supported Matt Gonzalez who almost won the mayoral race in San Francisco.

Why hinge it? Because this chair contest is really bringing out the two distinct forces within the Party. One is the coporate clubbers who are Republican Lite and the other is the activist base who want the Democratic Party to stand for something...like opposing stupid and ill-advised wars.

[TreasonousBastard]

66. Ya know, I would like to see that too, but...

I grew up with a Democratic Party that was split between Southern yellow dog segregationists and northern inner city machine crooks. Or both.

I remember the reformers that came in to oust Tammany Hall, and had to make so many deals that they were little better. Here, we have two, possibly three, Democratic parties vying for influence in the county. Each machine or faction accuses the other of being the real crooks, and they're all correct about that.

Sound cynical-- damn straight I'm cynical. Politics is a filthy, slimy business and it's all about power. Want to get something done-- find the currents of power and slide into them. Don't look for Democrats, or anyone else, to lead the charge, they are simply politicians whose job is to get elected and re-elected. Find Democrats you can buy to listen to what you want, and let them follow your lead.

War is good business for a lot of people. Really good business for everyone who makes cruise missiles or GI issue socks. Good business for the shipping companies and airlines who move stuff under contract. Good business for medical supply companies and coffin manufacturers. And this all crosses party lines.

Want to stop war-- find a way that peace is good business.

[mitchtv]

13. reluctantly yes

long time Dem I hate treacherous Greens, but no more DLC anti choice leaders from red states please. I might go Peace and Freedom Party after all Iam an old Hippie.

[quinnox]

18. not me

Whoever they pick for chair is not that important from my perspective.

But as a side note, why don't they make a Green party forum/group? It seems it is fairly popular on Du.

[youngred]

19. The Dems are weak, the Greens aren't going anywhere fast

Dean is not my man (though I think he'd make a good DNC chair).

Only option is to have my commie-self try and make the dems stronger and more progressive

[eg101]

20. WTF?! Dean and the Green Party are POLAR OPPOSITES!

Dean believes in raising the social security retirement age to 70 (!), and he said that Leftist politics is breathing its last gasp. See here:
http://www.sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/1668089.php

Why oh why must people continue to put Dean and the Green Party in the same part of the political spectrum? When it comes to economic issues, Dean is a rightwinger. The Greens are Leftwingers. Leftwingers and rightwingers are opposite, not the same! It would make a lot more sense if Dean does not get the DNC chair for these people to go over to the GOP. Dean is much more in tune with the GOP than the Green Party, fer Dog's sake!

[Cheswick2.0]

21. nope

sorry, not true at all. Do you really think that so many liberals, Green party members, republicans, independents and socialists don't know who they support when they support Dean?
I think you are missing the whole point of who Dean is and what he stands for.

[KittyWampus]

28. A LOT Of People Have No Idea What Dean Stands For. And You Can't

blame them.

His positions changed from when he was a Governor to Presidential Candidate.... and even as candidate he would say one thing briefly here (to give far Left a certain impression) and then pronounce his policy positions over there (to the larger public).

[David Zephyr]

29. Sanity from Cheswick.

As always.

[Demrock6]

22. Catchy isn't it?

The Dean or Green thing is something I read on DailyKos.com and thought it had a nice ring to it. I probably would not switch to Green if Dean doesn't get the DNC Chairmanship but I would be disappointed. I just strongly agree with the things Dean says and even what Edward Kennedy said today: "the worst thing for America is two republican parties". Some of the guys running for the chair want to bring the party strongly to the right thinking we will when more elections. I think we will win more elections by being stronger Democrats. I believe Dean has the leadership skills and drive to take us there. Excellent at grass roots campaigns,excellent at fund-raising, a good debater "have to disagree with an earlier post that chairman doesn't matter. They are kind of the face of the party".

I will be sticking with the Dems unless they forget why we are Dems in the first place.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. Hard to answer that question.

I prefer Dean, and there are a number of candidates mentioned that would send me to the Green party, but there are some who I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and see how they perform before making a decision.

Tim Roemer would definitely send me over to the Greens.

I too have been teetering at the edge for some time. I really don't think it's that big of a deal. I can still work and vote for Democratic candidates that I like, and I can always switch back if I need to, to vote in a caucus or primary. I see it as more of a symbolic gesture and a way of sending a signal to the Democratic party.

[JI7]

24. i wonder how long those who want to leave have been Democrats

and how old they are.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Sort of a Green...Dem...Green boomerang

Good question. How deep was the support? If it was pretty deep, and the person is this disgusted with the party after having been a Dem for years, then we're in freakin' trouble.

If it's people we picked up for the election who want to return to their roots, then I say do what you feel, dudes/dudettes.

[David Zephyr]

31. No One Wants to Leave the Democratic Party & Over 50

but a party that slavishly supports imperialistic wars, that backs away from decades of hard won victories with civil rights and civil liberties, that chooses to remain silent as minorities are victimized, that equates patriotism to voting for the Patriot Act, that says it has an open ear to partial privatizing F.D.R.'s social security promise to our citizens...

such a party seems to have left me and countless others who have sacrificed and worked in the trenches for decades.

"How old" you wonder are some of us? I'm over 50 with probably more years working for the Democratic Party than most people here at the DU have even been alive.

Howard Dean is hardly the socialist and social justice advocate I wish he was, but the alternatives are little more than corporate clubbers who will further disempower the people...the ones that the "party of the people" once fought for.

[JI7]

34. well

i don't get a sense of the party that you get.

i'm 26 and both of the elections i have been able to vote in (2000 and 2004) have not turned out as i wanted. but i never got the feeling to leave .

[David Zephyr]

36. It's Not the Dems Losing Elections But Choosing Directions

Losing elections is no reason to consider leaving a party, but a party that is choosing directions for the future will take it further and further into the fog of corporate compromise and betrayal of the working class and poor is.

[JI7]

38. but even there i just don't get that sense

i still see a huge difference overall from the republicans. of course individual democrats vary a bit from each other but overall i still see them as far better and something to offer that i don't get from others.

[David Zephyr]

40. Check out the voting records of the Congressional Democrats

on this bloody mess we call the Iraqi war, the un-American Patriot Act, the Homeland Defense bill that neutered collective bargaining for federal employees, the so-called partial birth bill that would not consider the life of the mother...

and you will find that more than just a few "individual democrats" who danced with the Bush Cabal.

And why, curiously I ask, did you wonder "how old" many of us were?

[JI7]

44. i was wondering how long those who want to leave

have been democrats

[David Zephyr]

46. Why?

Why would their age be a matter? What were you expecting?

And again, where did anyone post that they "wanted" to leave the Party?


:shrug:

[JI7]

50. because

i was wondering how much they knew about the party or were commited to it in the first place.

and questions which ask whether someone will go to another party imply they want to leave.

[David Zephyr]

52. No they don't.

The question doesn't imply any such thing.

[peacebird]

32. 47 thank you, and a dem my whole life

but unless the party develops a spine and begins to stand up for the people again instead of the corporations then i will leave.

hopefully leave the entire country actually.

[Crunchy Frog]

39. Me?

Third generation Democrat, registered as such since 1983.

[Walt Starr]

73. Let's see, I've been a Democrat for 23 years now

Voted a straight Democratic ticket in every election beginning in 1982.

Ran against a local Republican incumbent twice as a Democratic Candidate because no other democrat had the balls.

I'm 42 in a few months.

[sandnsea]

33. The twilight zone

Dean or Green. Why would anybody think those are the choices when considering this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1476582&mesg_id=1476582

[Lexingtonian]

35. Bye bye!

But seriously, if your political views are forever stuck in the mainstream views of 1972-78- which is what those two options represent- you're going to have a rough time being a Democrat in the next couple of years.

[David Zephyr]

37. Progessive for the Future

I'm hardly "stuck" anywhere. There are millions like me who are trying to keep the Party from going backwards which is what you seem to indicate you are hoping for "in the next couple of years."

[Lexingtonian]

42. Yeah, right....

No, see, the problem begins right with the label "progressive" as what you mean, anti-corporate stuff as the emphasis.

Dean folks all admit that social wedge issues exist, that they're key to Republican efforts and wins. But I can't get a single hardcore Dean supporter to admit that this logically means settling Democratic social policy has to be the tactical priority. In the end all the people of the sort I've argued this with on this board want to hear is about corporate privileges being cut back- I absolutely cannot get them to engage on social policy, I cannot get a coherent counterargument, I cannot get any evidence cited to refute my assertion. All I get is evasions and denial. Somehow social wedge issues will never work against any campaign involving Howard Dean, no Republican would ever dare (best as I can figure it out) according to these people.

It's kinda true. Dean's movement remains one with an occultic empowerment core belief system and method, somewhat less overtly than the Republican one, so social issues would never even be touched upon. It would be cultism vs cultism, and Republicans win that one because a large proportion (50-60%) of Democrats ultimately take distance from occult stuff, whatever the banner it flies under, but few or no Republicans do.

on edit: The distinction involved here for Democrats is progressive vs liberal. I simply think you're not betting the right way on what represents the relative purity and relative corruption, or the necessary tactical approach. I'm no less against corporate privilege than you are, I just think that in practice the Dean follower approach (the argument involving Nader is similar) is a dogmatic rigging of the cart before the horse politically.

[David Zephyr]

43. Sounds like the same "cultural" arguments the Dixiecrats made.

You know those social wedge issues that the Dixiecrats swore were hurting the Democratic Party like supporting Civil Rights.

Talk about "stuck" in the past. Your reasoning resounds with Dixiecratism. Welcome to the 1950's.

[Lexingtonian]

48. Amusing assumption on your part

that I somehow champion social 'moderacy' or conservatism. I guess that immediate edit I did came in a bit late.

No, I'm of the opposite school. The Party has to go socially liberal- the obstacles are internal on that, e.g. the DLC and Deanites. The swing voters don't care whether the Party is moderate or liberal on social issues- it's the same to them at this point, Not Conservative, and it's the insecure waverings that turns them off more than the stances themselves.

I think your guess that I would advocate caving in to the conservatives on social policy is a reflection on yourself and your biases.

[IndianaGreen]

41. The issue is the war and the threat to our civil liberties

We just had news of the Florida authorities using the PATRIOT Act to monitor chat rooms of people planning to go on a cruise, only to bust them for possession of pot and other drugs that the passengers brought for their personal use. Busting pot smokers is more important than protecting our ports!

Anyone that supports the war and the PATRIOT Act by refusing to call for an immediate US withdrawal from Iraq and for outright repeal of PATRIOT, is not our friend and we must act accordingly.

The Greens are not the panacea that some people think they are. I will point out that the German Greens quickly abandoned their antiwar position after they were invited into the government coalition, and were offered the Foreign Ministry portfolio.

No one is immune to corruption!

[David Zephyr]

45. Simon Rosenberg, candidate for National Chair: "The war was a good idea"

On John Gibson’s show on Fox News, Sept. 9th of this year, Simon Rosenberg, candidate for the Chair of the Democratic National Party said regarding the disastrous Iraqi War “I think the debate that is not happening is whether or not the war was a good idea. The war was a good idea."

[IndianaGreen]

47. Strike Rosenberg's name from the list of friends

If there is anything we should learn from the Religious Right is that one should never compromise on one's core values. They certainly have no problem obliterating anyone that does not share their warped world view. Why should we even be civil to them?

Pope John Paul II warned Bush and Blair that if they went ahead and invaded Iraq, they would do so without G_d.

The war was wrong and evil and must be brought to an immediate end. Government officials and military leaders responsible for the war should be prosecuted for crimes against peace and for war crimes.

The war in Iraq is actually more wicked than the war in Vietnam!

[David Zephyr]

54. The war is more wicked indeed.

and what's even more wicked is now watching the Bush Administration planning to emulate Nixon's "peace with honor" mantra as they plan to cut and run from the disaster they've created.

[welshTerrier2]

49. oh no ... sorry but i may be an "OTHER"

i deeply believe we have to put Dean in the Chairman's role ... the Party needs a major overhaul ...

but for me, the make or break issue will not likely be the Chairman selection but rather the issue of Iraq ... i'm rapidly losing faith that the Party is willing to alter its hawkish position ...

the alternative, however, may not be Green for me ... the alternative may be an anti-war group ... the alternative may be local candidates ... and i'm already affiliated with a local progressive organization ...

i can't tell you how frustrated i am with all that's wrong with the Democratic Party ... and i'm not convinced that I want to join DFA ...

sure hope i find a place to put my energies soon ... i feel like i'm out here wandering around in the wilderness with "no direction home" ...

won't somebody give me shelter from the storm ???

[David Zephyr]

51. We agree.

The "Dean or Green" line is, as per my attribution, from Demrock6 here at the DU.

I am hoping that both Simon Rosenberg and Tim Roemer are swept away in the contest now underway for the chair position. I don't "want" to leave the Party and if I did I might register as a Socialist or Independent or Green, but I'd rather see the Party do the right thing.

As far as the war goes, which you wrote, "but for me, the make or break issue will not likely be the Chairman selection but rather the issue of Iraq", it is directly linked with the Chair selection. Rosenberg has clearly stated, as I posted above, "I think the debate that is not happening is whether or not the war was a good idea. The war was a good idea." Everyone in America knows that Howard Dean was against the war.

The choice for chair will reflect our Party's choice for the War. There's no avoiding it this time.

[welshTerrier2]

59. and they know it's his achilles heel ...

their defense of Rosenberg is not that he was right to support the war ... their defense, and there's been a ton of it around here the last couple of days, is that policy concerns have nothing to do with the Chair position ... or any other key position they plan to offer him ...

well, you and I are in total agreement that if nothing else, Rosenberg's hawkish position sends a powerful symbolic message ... so it's hardly fair to argue policy has nothing to do with it ... you can't argue his words are irrelevant when they are having an impact ...

[David Zephyr]

61. And Simon is no Brad Pitt, either.

Glad to hear your thoughts. I feel we are truly about to lose the Party for good this time.

[welshTerrier2]

63. looks to me like a deal has been cut with Dr. Dean ...

i can't say it makes me very comfortable ...

watch the next debate very carefully ... the interplay between Dean and Rosenberg will let you know whether the fix is in ...

[jonnyblitz]

53. same with me.

don't know where to put my energies.

[welshTerrier2]

62. nice to have company, JB ...

i've been working with a group called the Progressive Democrats of Massachusetts ... you're in Mass, yes?? they have groups all over the state ... might be worth checking out ... they have a website that might give you more info ... btw, it's not affiliated with PDA ...

[jonnyblitz]

67. I am in southeastern CT near the casinos

but hang out in MA all the time. :hi:

[welshTerrier2]

68. wanna help form a new DU group for PDA ??

cast a vote here =>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1485593

[jonnyblitz]

69. just did.

not sure what i am getting myself into though. :scared:

[welshTerrier2]

70. thanks, jb ...

hey, me neither ... it's just a group ... we'll see where it leads ...

[jonnyblitz]

72. i know..

I am being silly. I DO have this fear of joining things. I am always afraid I am gonna have to make phone calls and recruit. I have an aversion to that sort of thing. I know this is just a DU discussion group though (I think).

[Geek_Girl]

55. I think of Dean as a moderate

I think of myself as moderate as well. I have more in common with Dean than the Green party. I think the main reason why Dean is so appealing to progressive was because he was very outspoken about the war in Iraq and he gave voice to the anti-war crowd.

I'm a moderate dem against the war if Dean doesn't win DNC chair I'm not sure what I'll do. But most likely I will not be voting for a democrat in '06 and the DNC will not be seeing my cash.

[David Zephyr]

56. He is a moderate from my perspective.

He's certainly not as progressive on many issues that I wish he were.

Still, he stood, as you say against the war, this stupid, costly and miserably failing war, and he would make a great chair.

[Selatius]

57. We're going to fight each other if there is no electoral reform

As long as the Electoral College still exists and as long as there are no runoffs or instant runoff elections for federal races with three or more candidates running, we will never have a viable third party in this country, and we will never truly be liberated to vote for the candidate we like best. Federal laws favor two parties and two parties only.

If you really want a viable third party, then you work within one of the existing parties to force it to press the issue, and once it's done, then bolt from the party if you want and vote your conscience.

Right now, people cannot "leave" the Democratic Party en masse if they wanted to because then they're just slitting their own throats. You're going to be forced to vote Dem just to prevent Repubs from overrunning you. The system simply won't allow any meaningful number of people to leave, not with the way it is set up today.

You can choose not to vote, but then you'll just be attacked by both parties as being lazy and not having the right to criticize if things go wrong because you didn't contribute to your country.

[Walt Starr]

58. Not Green, but I will declare political independence

I don't think I could register as a Green, though.

[David Zephyr]

60. Hi Walt Starr.

I feel like we're f**king a corpse sometime...just hoping that it might wink back.

[Guaranteed]

64. Same for me. I'm just not going Green.

Just waiting for the doc to start another party if this gig doesn't work out.

[Eloriel]

65. I voted yes, but you need a third option --

My fervent hope if Dean doesn't get DNC chair is that he'll just go ahead and form his own party which would subsume (most of) the Greens, as well as all those sane Republicans, Libertarians, Independents, formerly apolitical and new voters, and of course all us disaffected Dems.

So my yes was NOT for the Greens, but for Howard all the way.

[Walt Starr]

74. I'm with you, Eloriel, with a single exception

I won't wait for Dean to form a new party. I want to send him a message by declaring my political independence.

If enough Democrats do that, then the good doctor will see the writing on the wall.

[IStriker]

71. Yes, I'll re-register, but definitely not Green...

I will register as an Independent because I like the Greens even less than I like the Repukes.

[ecstatic]

75. With Dean, it's not about whether he is liberal or moderate

The reason why Dean has so many die-hard supporters from all stripes is because he stands for CHANGE. He is not content with the same ol' same ol' that the Democratic leadership has become content with. He's angry (like many of us) and ready for change. He is the only person who seems to acknowledge that something is wrong with our party.