Dean's sneaky websites

[marcologico]

A couple of people have asked me to explain my objections to Dean's websites and I'm happy to oblige. I have two: first, that they harvest emails under false pretenses, and second, that they generate Kerry-bashing letters under false pretenses. Here's the evidence.

First, http://standupdemocrats.org/ collects personal information (first and last names, addresses, telephone numbers, professions, emails) from visitors under the pretense of a "contest" for "ideas to fix the Democratic Party." Nothing wrong here except that no sponsor is identified. Links to the site are frequently dropped into threads on this board, again with no mention of Dean. This suggests to me that the covert purpose of the site is to collect emails from voters so that Dean's operation can contact and proselytize them.

Second is TheDeanPeople.org. On January 6, links to this site (http://capwiz.com/thedeanpeople/home/) were dropped into several threads in the Election 2004 forum, urging DUers to visit the site and allow it to generate "action alert" letters to Congressional representatives containing language critical of the Kerry campaign, for example:

"So much for the vows to 'Count Every Vote.' It's a simple formula. Let them 'Count Every Vote,' we'll just make sure votes don't get cast in the first place! And they were successful."

The letter is gone now, but that excerpt is archived in a Jan. 6 post in this DU thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x245742#246060

Generating Kerry-bashing letters under the pretense of an "action alert" is in my view dishonest .

[eyesroll]

1. Where is the proof of affiliation between Stand Up Democrats and Dean?

I see nothing linking the two entities. If SUD and DFA were linked, there would be disclaimers (per FEC and other rules).

[codegreen]

2. these aren't "Dean's websites". what's the deal?

i oughta start a thread, 'Marcologico's sneaky posts'

[Eloriel]

20. Please do -- what Marcologico is doing is FAR worse than what

he seems to be complaining about.

There is NO CONNECTION to Dean on those websites. His thread title is a BALD-FACED LIE.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crispini]

45. bwahahahahahaha! nt

[madfloridian]

4. That Dean People site is made up of good folks from NJ.

It is from the grassroots of Union County, NJ. It was a great tool, and there was not an attack on Kerry.

It is http://www.unioncountyfordemocracy.org/

[imenja]

5. "dropped into threads"

Isn't it more likely that members posted those links as a way of promoting action. What's wrong with that? Your prefer inaction?
Many are understandably frustrated with Kerry because after we volunteered countless hours for his campaign, he immediately pulled up stakes rather than aggressively pursuing allegations of voting problems. I have no problem with the fact he conceded the election, but if does bother me that, from what I can tell, his concerns did not extend beyond his own candidacy. The issue of voting
irregularities is much larger than the Kerry campaign. Democracy is more important than whether any particular candidate wins or not.
As Americans, we have a right to be critical of Kerry or anyone else with whom we disagree.

[marcologico]

8. Sure we have a right to be critical, but let's be honest about it. n/t

[imenja]

9. what is the dishonesty?

the allegations I see here extend to the fact you saw links to a site for Dean supporters. I see nothing dishonest in that. I've never myself linked to a Dean site, but I've linked to a number of others. Most posters do. I guess I don't understand your anger. I wonder if you are displacing your frustration over Kerry's electoral loss onto fellow Democrats.

[marcologico]

11. I'm simply pointing out a pattern of dishonesty and covert Kerry-bashing.

These are the kinds of tactics that Kerry wouldn't allow in his own campaign, and I don't think it speaks well for Dean that he does, especially in view of what happened in Iowa.

[imenja]

18. Look to the future

You have given no evidence of Dean bashing Kerry. You instead note links to websites of a NJersey Dean supporter group that contained criticism of Kerry.
There is all kind of Kerry bashing on DU. Only it is overt.
I'm not sure what your concerns about Iowa are. Dean and Kerry made harsh criticisms of each other during the campaign. The stories I've heard are of illicit phone calls made by Kerry and Gephardt people to discourage voters from voting for Dean. I'm not sure how much or any of this is true. Regardless, you've got nothing to complain about in regard to Iowa. Kerry won there and everywhere else, until the general election.
I must encourage you to try to get past this sort of thing. The election is over. Neither Kerry or Dean are likely to be the party nominee in 2008. Let's look to the future and how we can improve the party from here on out. Division only holds us back.

[Eloriel]

23. Dean has no control over these sites

You really have a fixation about Dean here, don't you?

And what about Iowa??

Finally, to say Kerry wouldn't allow dishonesty against others in his campaign is a HOOT. Another bald-faced lie, actually. But you go right ahead and think that if you want to.

[ImADeanDem]

30. Oh, I don't think you want to go there...

"the kind of tactics Kerry wouldn't allow in his own campaign..."

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capn Sunshine]

10. Stand Up Democrats has no affiliation with DFA

If they did, they'd just be working with us. From what I hear, the agenda is pretty similar. They are consultants based in Washington DC. See any reference to DFA in their resumes? Frankly I think you just liked the way your post topic read. But it's completely disingenuous to affilate it with Gov. Dean or his organization.
Now find another reason to bash Gov. Dean. I'm sure you;ll come up with something equally creative next time.

Standupdemocrats.org :
Jeff Stanger
Principal

Jeffrey Stanger is Co-Founder and Principal of NetCampaign. In this role, Mr. Stanger is responsible for all site design for NetCampaign's projects. Previously, Mr. Stanger served as Washington Director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, where he directed and conducted research on political advertising, children’s television and other media issues. As Director, he was also head of press and public relations for the Center’s Washington office. His research has been cited by the Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, USA Today, Time Magazine, U.S. News & World Report, National Journal, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, National Public Radio, Roll Call, Variety, Broadcasting & Cable, and others. He has been quoted in several major publications, including the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, Philadelphia Inquirer, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and others on the topics of political advertising, campaign finance, and public opinion of children’s television. His research on issue advertising was cited in House and Senate floor debate on campaign finance reform legislation. He has appeared on NBC, CNN, C-SPAN, CBC Worldview and as a guest on numerous national, local and syndicated radio programs.

Mr. Stanger oversaw all information technologies and Internet initiatives for the Annenberg Public Policy Center. During the 1997-1998 election cycle, Mr. Stanger researched and designed "IssueAds@APPC," an online tracking study of issue advocacy advertising, which was profiled by USA Today and PBS.org, and called "the place to go on the Internet for information on issue advocacy advertising" by Policy.com.

Prior to starting NetCampaign, Mr. Stanger produced and maintained the Internet site for the successful 1998 Maurice Hinchey (D-NY-26) U.S. Congressional campaign.

Mr. Stanger's recent and past work at NetCampaign includes sites for the Covering the Uninsured initiative, the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, Jack Conway for Congress, Steve Grossman for Governor (Massachusetts), Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, Covering Kids, Student Voices, Hinchey for Congress, Jean Elliott Brown for Congress, among others.

Mr. Stanger holds a master’s degree in communication from the University of Pennsylvania and a bachelor’s degree from UCLA.
Daniel Ouellet
Principal

Daniel Ouellet
Principal

Daniel Ouellet is Co-Founder and Principal at NetCampaign. Mr. Ouellet has extensive experience in technology development and programming, particularly to the broadcast sector. He has served as Director of Technology for the United States for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Washington, DC. He is also President of Software by Design Corporation, which provides software programming, network administration, WAN and LAN engineering and Internet design and support to a range of private and public sector organizations. He also serves as Network Systems Engineer for PressCom, Inc. of Washington, DC, where he is responsible for the design, implementation, operation, support and security of a complete building-wide network operation, including email, DNS, Web, Cisco router and remote access. Mr. Ouellet has extensive skills as a Broadcast Engineer Specialist, planning, designing, installing and maintaining radio and television operations. As a Network Administration Specialist, Mr. Ouellet is capable of planning, installing, maintaining all PC, network, servers, hubs, switches, bridges, routers, LANs, WANs, Internet access, Intranets, network databases, FTP servers, DNS servers, WINS servers, Web servers, proxy servers, and application servers. He has Windows NT Server expertise. Mr. Ouellet's programming expertise includes C++ and Java++. He is a member of the Microsoft Developer Network. He has developed numerous software applications that are used in the broadcast sector and several custom database applications tailored to the Windows NT Server environment. Mr. Ouellet studied advanced electronics, technical at Sherbrooke College, Quebec, with a specialization in microelectronics.

[marcologico]

12. Then what exactly is its purpose, and why does it use Dean's slogan? n/t

[janx]

15. A lot of people use Dean's slogans. n/t

[marcologico]

17. Thanks for the full disclosure. n/t

[charlie]

19. Go find the purpose of this bunch using Kerry's slogan

http://www.reportingforduty.org

Bring us the dirt when you've sussed out Kerry's nefarious connections.

[Cheswick2.0]

38. Kerry used a lot of Deans "slogans" during the primary and his campaign

Is he a stealth Dean controlled Kerry basher too?

:crazy:

[radio4progressives]

133. it was Kerry who hijacked Dean's platform in the primaries, then Kerry

abondoned it sometime around "super tuesday" or a bit later.

[radio4progressives]

132. The Purpose of the StandUp website is to collect INPUT of ISSUES the DNC

should be focused on. The DNC is trying to demonstrate how it is "in touch" with the grassroots. (which they are not) Tomorrow, the DNC will be collecting those ideas, deciding on the "best" (according to their own filters) in order to help them formulate the party platform.

This was broadcast on the Al Franken program this morning, and i went there to give "input" as to what issues the party should be focused on.

This is not a Dean website, but a DNC website.

[marcologico]

134. If it was a DNC website it would be identified as a DNC website. n/t

[janx]

13. I was right behind you in the conference call. I've been chasing

you around online trying to tell you that!

[marcologico]

16. So tell me who's paying you, and where are those emails going? n/t

[marcologico]

14. As I recall SBVT had no connection to the Bush campaign either.

[Cha]

21. You better have evidence to back

up your attacks. When I read your posts..all I can see conjecture and smears.

It sounds like you're trying to start a fight between two Democrats..now why would that be?

[marcologico]

22. Please, don't get me started on conjecture and smears, thank you. n/t

[comsymp]

62. Looks to me like you have those topics well covered.

Still waiting for evidence that these sites are "Dean sites."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

24. Why not write a long honest post entitled

"Why I really really hate Howard Dean."

You might feel better.

[PassingFair]

27. Because it would neither be long...

nor honest.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

33. It might be honest by accident.

And however long it was, it would be too long.

[mandyky]

25. Stand Up Democrats is not a Dean site

It's either Fowler or Rosenberg - I forget which - I think it is New Democrats Network or some such.

The other site you mention may have been Dean supporters, but it was not Dean personally. Some people were really ticked at Kerry for conceding so fast, including me, but not enough to send out griping emails.

I think you owe Dean an apology for jumping to conclusions.

[NYCGirl]

50. Al Franken on Air America Radio just did a commercial for Stand Up

Democrats. Obviously, a very shady right wing Rovian organization.

:evilgrin:

[AlGore-08.com]

86. Donnie Fowler's site is http://www.changetheparty.com

eom

[cali]

26. Why don't you just apologize

now. Your post is scurrilous.

[marcologico]

28. I'm still waiting for C++ and Java++ to tell me who's paying them and what

they do with the emails they harvest.

[ImADeanDem]

29. Oh, Please. If Dean were trying to be sneaky

Don't you think he'd come up with a better site name than "TheDeanPeople"? It's beyond ridiculous to try to characterize that as some sort of "covert" site launched by the Dean campaign! The site is run by Dean supporters, exactly as the name implies (well, it does more than just "imply" it actually) -- there's no official connection to Dean.

Faulting Dean for what you consider to be the misdeeds of some of his supporters isn't really fair. Perhaps in Rove-land, the candidate (or his puppetmaster) actually controls and directs the actions of ALL of his supporters, but that's not the case in the rest of the world!

[Cha]

31. It's ridiculous..is what it is!

Welcome to DU, DeanDem!

[ImADeanDem]

32. Thanks for the welcome! :)

[marcologico]

34. Another dead giveaway: 100% policy-free shill.

Is this guy is the king of infomercials or what?

[Norquist Nemesis]

41. You've got that shill part down.

Look in the mirror.

[rniel]

35. Stand up democrats

or what we have now is "sit down and shut up democrats"

[MsAnthropy]

36. Dean's site is at democracyforamerica.com

[lojasmo]

37. unsubstantiated crap. N/T

[madfloridian]

40. I am amazed that stuff like this still stands.

This makes us look no better than the other side...unsubstantiated attacks.

[marcologico]

42. madfloridian the point of the post IS to substantiate it. What else would

you like me to do?

[madfloridian]

43. What you posted does not even make sense.

Maybe it is because I sort of know the folks behind the Dean People site, and I posted who they were. It was a great activist tool.

The other is not a Dean site. It just is not. You prove it is.

And what is it you say they did wrong? If you mean insinuating did not do enough for the election stuff, then I agree. :shrug:

[DrGonzoLives]

48. You substantiated nothing

How about trying to do something constructive instead of pursuing your I-Hate-Dean agenda?

[RogueTrooper]

52. post some proof

proof that Howard Dean has anything to do with those websites would be a good start.

[KoKo]

92. Jacinto....rises like Biblical Lazarus........arguments just to argue n/t

[JordanTO]

44. I don't see any link between those sites and Gov. Dean.

While t's clear that the sites support him, that's a very different thing than saying that he or his organisation maintain them. Have you some proof of your charge?

[comsymp]

65. Apparently, the OP is using Bushie logic

See for yourself:

"Links to the site are frequently dropped into threads on this board, again with no mention of Dean. This suggests to me that the covert purpose of the site is to collect emails from voters so that Dean's operation can contact and proselytize them."

same as

"The fact that the inspectors have not yet come up with new evidence of Iraq's WMD program could be evidence, in and of itself, of Iraq's noncooperation."

[crispini]

46. After reading this thread,

it seems pretty clear to me that you have failed to prove that either of those websites are linked to Dean.

[marcologico]

47. How much "proof" do you need? n/t

[crispini]

51. Well, see post #10.

That's a good detail of that website's pedigree.

If the website was built by, or if the domain name was registered to, someone who A) was currently in the employ of Dean or DFA, or B) was not so long ago in the employ of Dean or DFA, or C) was known to be a VERY close associate of Dean or DFA -- and when I say "DFA" I'm referring to a high-level, national level employee, not a local group, because they are not very influenced by national -- then, IMO, that would be more telling. Still, not proof, but more telling.

All you have done is point out two websites that are similar to Dean's ideas, or use Dean's ideas. Big deal.

[marcologico]

53. #10 has two 2nd-hand resumes of techs who built the site. Who paid them?

And what do they do with the personal information they're collecting?

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crispini]

67. Well, since you are the one who made the charges,

I think it is incumbent upon you to provide this information or similar information to substantiate your claims.

Why don't you use WHOIS, find out who owns the domain names, pick up the phone, ask them, and report back?

[marcologico]

68. If I'm wrong about the first one, they'll identify themselves. n/t

[crispini]

72. WTF kind of response is that?

You:
- come on a public message board.
- make unsubstantiated claims.
- refuse to substantiate them when asked.
- and now you are throwing the burden of proof onto one of the people/websites you have made claims about?

Um, sorry, you don't gain any kind of credibility with that tactic. I'm not being rude, I'm trying to make you understand that if you say things like that it is up to you to prove it.

Your claims in this thread might actually be actionable as libel or slander in a court of law, I'm not sure-- I'm certainly no lawyer.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but it's difficult.

NYCGirl has kindly provided you with WHOIS contact information below. Feel free to avail yourself of it.

[marcologico]

75. If they were honest, they'd identify the sponsor on the site. n/t

[crispini]

88. Here is the point I am trying to make:

Posting on DU and saying something like, "Hey, people, who is behind standupdemocrats.org? Have you guys noticed that there is no sponsoring organization listed on there? I wonder what they are doing with the mailing list they are generating? Who is this person listed on the WHOIS database? I am concerned that they are not entirely reputable" -- this is one kind of post.

IMO, this type of post, which confines itself to provable facts, might actually generate an interesting and productive discussion and/or investigation.

On the other hand, what you did is trot on here and say, "Hey, people, standupdemocrats.org does not post any sponsoring organization information on their website! Therefore, they are connected with HOWARD DEAN and must be part of his shadowy network of websites!"

Do you see the difference?

[marcologico]

93. The slogan identifies the site as Dean's. Dean's "race" for DNC chair is

prominently featured. No one has presented evidence pointing to another financial sponsor.

[NYCGirl]

95. Actually these other people are listed on the front page. Do they own it?

Simon Rosenberg
Martin Frost
Howard Dean
Wellington Webb
Donnie Fowler Jr.
Harold Ickes
Jim Blanchard

And here are the people in their "Hall of Fame"

What is a Stand Up Democrat?

A Stand Up Democrat has rock solid principles, is not afraid to take on the extreme Republicans, is committed to winning public policy battles and winning elections.

First Inductees in the Stand Up Democrats Hall of Fame:
John Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Bill Clinton
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Ann Richards
Max Cleland
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
James Carville
The Democratic Texas Legislators who walked out in 2003 to stall the Republicans’ partisan redistricting plan.

They must be co-owners, eh?

:tinfoilhat:

[marcologico]

99. Doubtful. If they did, they would say so. So should Dean. n/t

[NYCGirl]

100. Actually, Simon Rosenberg is the first name on the site. Using your logic,

he must own the site.

[crispini]

102. How does the slogan identify the site as Dean's?

You mean, the slogan "Stand Up Democrats"?

I'm not EXTREMELY well versed in the Dean campaign, but I have seen Dean speak, and I have been to more than one DFA meetup, and I do not immediately associate this slogan with Howard Dean.

Please produce other evidence associating the slogan "Stand Up Democrats" with Howard Dean.

I also do not seen Dean's race for DNC chair "prominently" featured, and I have looked at every page of the site.

And, I repeat, that since YOU made the assertion connecting that website to Howard Dean, YOU are the one who must produce the evidence.

Your argument is repeatedly failing to make a logicial chain linking A to B to C. Your argument continues to jump from A to C, and leaves out the middle, don't you see that?

[crispini]

129. Helllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooo....

I'd like an answer........

[NYCGirl]

70. Here are the owners of those websites from WHOIS (public info):

Standupdemocrats.com:

Domain Name: STANDUPDEMOCRATS.COM

Administrative Contact
Daniel Ouellet: [e-mail]
NetCampaign, LLC
718 - 7th Street NW Suite 300
Washington, DC 20001
US
Phone [phone]
Fax
Technical Contact
Daniel Ouellet: [e-mail]
NetCampaign, LLC
718 - 7th Street NW Suite 300
Washington, DC 20001
US
Phone [phone]
Fax
Billing Contact
Daniel Ouellet: [e-mail]
NetCampaign, LLC
718 - 7th Street NW Suite 300
Washington, DC 20001
US
Phone [phone]
Fax

Record updated date: 2004-05-21 22:19:09
Record created date: 2004-05-21
Record expires on date: 2005-05-21
Database last updated on: 2005-01-14 15:00:03 EST

CAPWIZ.COM

Registrant: West, Mark (HAPFIRQFDI)
2751 Prosperity Ave
Fairfax, VA 22031
US
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Domain Name: CAPWIZ.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact : West, Mark (HAPFIRQFDI)
[e-mail]
2751 Prosperity Ave
Fairfax, VA 22031
US
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Record expires on 24-Feb-2006
Record created on 24-Feb-2000
Database last updated on 30-Jun-2004

[marcologico]

74. A couple of DC consultants. Who do they work for and what are they doing

with the personal information they're collecting?

[NYCGirl]

76. Their addresses, phone numbers and email addresses are there.

Why don't you ask them?

[marcologico]

77. See post #75. It shouldn't be a question. n/t

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYCGirl]

82. We're waiting to see what you find out. Go ahead and call them.

If you make the accusations, you provide the proof.

[WilliamPitt]

61. 'Any at all' would be a good starting point.

[marcologico]

63. Are the links not working? n/t

[lojasmo]

73. How about ANY proof.

All you have offered is innuendo. This post is total crap. I'm sorry I have to kick this thread to call you on this garbage. Of course if it stays on top, people will be able to tell what your agenda is, so I guess it's a mixed bag.

[blondeatlast]

117. More. LOTS more. nt

[RogueTrooper]

49. Before you turn up on this site and smear Howard Dean

please do your research. Neither of these domain names are owned by Howard Dean, Democracy for America or any other organization affiliated with Howard Dean.

Deliberatly misrepresenting a prominent Democrat for political gain is, in my view mendacious dishonest.

[marcologico]

56. I'm sorry but I don't buy anybody's faith-based politics including Dean's.

n/t

[WilliamPitt]

55. Sneaky?

Come on now.

I am the first person to bristle at what I percieve to be an all-too-prevalent sense of loud victimhood from some (SOME!) Dean supporters. But then I see nasty little shiv posts like this, and can understand where they are coming from.

I can't believe the primaries are back again. Barf.

[marcologico]

57. "nasty little shiv posts"? Did I use that kind of language? No. n/t

[WilliamPitt]

59. Do you know what a shiv is?

Let me help you.



A shiv is a nasty little knife fashioned by inmates in prison for use in assassinations. It delivers a relatively small wound, and so the attacker must stab and stab and stab and stab and stab. Usually, shiv attacks are made by a group armed with these little knives.

An instructive word, sir. So is the term 'crabs in a barrel.'

[ArkDem]

66. God, I hate crabs!

yuk

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marcologico]

58. Folks please let's argue the merits and not get carried away, thanks n/t

[NYCGirl]

60. LOL! Merits! NT

[lojasmo]

96. No merits present. N/T

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arcos]

101. LOL!!! nt

[AntiCoup2K4]

80. So exactly how many DLC interns do we have working the board now?

These Dean bashing threads are more pathetic now than they were last year.And just as then, they prove just how much the Democracy Loathing Corporatists fear him, and us.

[marcologico]

81. I'm a voter. I don't like that Dean smears Kerry and I don't like how he

does it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

83. Dean busted his ass off campaigning for Kerry

In my not so humble opinion, he gave Kerry far more support than was deserved, considering the Kerry/Gephardt/Torricelli SLANDER right before Iowa, the midnight robocalls, and all that shit.

Dean put the unity of this party first, and the needs of the country. He's a far better man for it than I would have been in the same situation. Kerry wouldn't have gotten a dime from me without Dean's support.

[lojasmo]

97. He doesn't smear Kerry

But you certainly are out to smear dean. I can't wait to see this thread justifiably locked.

[blondeatlast]

107. Smears Kerry? Howard Dean was one of the best Kerry surrogates

in the campaign.

Using your logic, Saddam Hussein was totally behind 9/11, without any help from anybody. :eyes:

[marcologico]

135. Then where was he on Jan. 6? Or Nov. 3? Or Nov. 2? Why didn't he "stand

up" for Conyers, Boxer, and Jesse Jackson?

And why does his Stand Up site compare Kerry's campaign to Pearl Harbor, as in these excerpts:

"After another disappointing performance by Democrats it's time to act. It's time for us to stand up and fix this party. Stand up and give us your ideas to fix the Democratic Party.

"We hope the 2004 election will serve as our party's Pearl Harbor Day for the 21st century, a low point that gets us focused, energized, and more determined than ever to rejuvenate the Democratic Party."

I didn't find Kerry's performance disappointing, and to suggest that it was is counterproductive. In any case Dean's performance was a bigger disappointment and I don't see it changing.

[madfloridian]

84. Amazing, absolutely amazing. Just amazing. Will we hit 300?

Amazing.

[NYCGirl]

87. And here's the punch line to the joke...

Neither of the websites he talks about has one bit of information that is disparaging to Kerry or the Democratic Party.

Is this a case of :tinfoilhat: ?

[madfloridian]

91. Amazing, it just goes on and on.

Unbelievable. I was stunned to see it still going strong today. Those sites are just fine. The great folks from Union County, NJ,Democracy for NJ did the deanpeople site. No bashing at all.

[crispini]

103. I'm actually kind of enjoying this thread, to tell you the truth.

Because it is so very :tinfoilhat:

[blondeatlast]

114. Yeppers, I agree. nt

[Eloriel]

126. More accurately,

it's so very

SICK.

Someone who sees problems where there are none, goes out of his way to make a big ole stink about it, sticks WITH his delusions for the long haul, has some problems.

Big ones.

I'm beginning to find some compassion -- but the nausea is still overpowering me. The compassion will have to wait.

[Revillusion1]

85. This is pathetic...

And exactly why Democrats are having such a tough time winning elections. Until everybody pulls their heads out of their asses and realizes who our true opposition is, it's going to be more of the same. Instead of focussing all of this hate and energy on Dean and his supporters, why not go after the true bad guys...Bush and the neo-cons, and their supporters. Anybody, including Greens, Libertarians, whoever...not just Democrats, are good guys in my book if they're against the Bush camp. Haven't you ever heard the saying 'My enemy's enemies are my best friends'? We've got to get our shit in a straight line and present a united front because if we don't...chances are we'll have another Bush in the White House in '08.

Get over it, move on, and do something productive and positive. Geez.

[underpants]

89. I completely agree and Welcome to DU

if'n I haven't before :hi:

[Revillusion1]

90. Thank You!

:hi:

[madfloridian]

94. Did I say this was amazing?

It truly is.

[Leilani]

98. Hey marco,

your thread ain't too logico.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

104. OP is a brilliant parodist of Dean-haters.

A sly genius.

[madfloridian]

105. Perhaps a brilliant example instead?

:hi:

[blondeatlast]

106. I see no evidence that Dean is involved directly with either group.

Edited to prevent flames.

Show me solid proof, or move along.

[marcologico]

108. One site has Dean's name in the title. The other has his slogan in the

title and his "race" for DNC chair on the front page, and not much else. If anybody can show me a connection to any other political candidate, I'd like to see it.

[blondeatlast]

109. Why does it have to connect to a candidate?

And the burden of proof is on you--I'm no Dean fan, either.

[marcologico]

110. Because it's collecting personal information for politcal purposes. n/t

[blondeatlast]

112. So does MoveOn, SoJourners, CodePink, etc.

They don't represent or support any one candidate.

[marcologico]

115. Yes but they identify themselves on their sites, as legitimate operations

do.

[blondeatlast]

118. And the others DON'T?

:wtf:

And let me repeat, I'm NOT a Dean fan, but I do expect hard evidence (I am a librarian).

[marcologico]

121. The others do identify their sponsors. That's my point. n/t

[blondeatlast]

122. As in, they are self-sponsored--right?

Who sponsors Code Pink, besides Code Pink?

So why can't Stand Up Democrats do the same?

[marcologico]

127. Maybe you can find a sponsoring organization identified on the site. I

couldn't. By identified I mean by address and phone number, not simply by the site name.

[LeftyMom]

116. That doesn't mean it's connected to a canidate or politician.

Let's say I start a site of my own. I call it www.IVotedForKucinichInThePrimaryWhyDidntYou.com Just because it has DK's name in it, doesn't mean I'm connected to him (I'm not even a constituent) or giving him names on any mailing lists I generate. One can admire a politician without working for them, you know.

BTW, if you have a question about how mailing lists are handled and if they are shared, the best thing to do is ask the person who runs the website.

[marcologico]

119. If it was sponsored by an organization, it would be identifed on the site.

n/t

[blondeatlast]

120. But, but, but, that puts the burden on the OP, don'cha see? nt

[marcologico]

123. If the site is collecting personal information for ANY reason it should

identify its sponsors. You didn't know that?

[blondeatlast]

128. The burden is still on you to prove a link between

SUD and Dean.

And the other site is gone now anyway, or your link is bad.

[marcologico]

130. There's no "burden." It's a question of ethical behavior, not law. n/t

[LeftyMom]

111. By that logic

http://www.georgewbush.org/ is clearly officiated with the Pretzeldent. After all, his name is in the url and it talks about him. :eyes:

[blondeatlast]

113. Excellent point! nt

[lojasmo]

124. LOL "pretzeldent" HEY, OP Want to talk about this? N/T

A kick for the stupidest thread on this forum.

[killbotfactory]

125. DEAN CAUSED THE TSUNAMI

That crazy De3an is out of control! He and his brigand squad of suppoirters with websites totally caused the tsunami and know he plans to TAKE OVER THE WORLD this is no joke. OPEN YOPUR EYES!

PROOVE HE DIDN'T!

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spirochete]

139. Well, it's good to see

we have a suitable replacement for him. hehe

[leesa]

136. This is very weak.

[Vinnie From Indy]

137. Maaaaaaan! You ain't fooling anybody with half a brain!

Why don't you go play in traffic or something!

[sarahlee]

138. This is just so much

BS.

People can have a web site and try to organize with or without other organizational sponcers.