The thing about Dean that nobody here has been saying

[B0S0X87]

He's a Northeasterner. Let's face it, right now the Democrats are seen as the party of New England vegetarians who drive subarus and wish everybody would be nice to each other. Yes, I know it's a ridiculous stereotype and there are many, many democrats in between the coasts, but right now, we are rapidly losing ground in middle America.

That is why I oppose Howard Dean for DNC Chair. We just ran a Northeasterner for president, and we can't afford to continue the stereotype that our party is purely the New Englanders party.

I personally like Wellington Webb. Working class background, all of Howard's intensity, and a believer in the "Coyote Democrat" philosophy that I feel would be invaluable with voters throughout the country. But please, please, please, if you want the Democrat Party to regain its nationwide influence, you will not support Howard Dean for DNC Chair.

[NoPasaran]

1. Dean's a northeasterner?

D'oh!

That changes everything! What was I thinking?

[hector459]

146. And the country is in the mess it is in because there hasn't been a

northeasterner in office for the last 30 years or so. Is this point lost on people? Why keep standing in the hole you are digging?

[janx]

2. I could be mistaken...

but I think you might be outnumbered. :smoke:

Dean appeals to people all over the country.

[Clark2008]

13. Not really.

How many times do I have to say he was a "blip" in the South and mid-West.

I respect his backbone, but he's not really all that appealling to Southern and Mid-Western Dems and Independents.

[janx]

22. The southern and midwestern Dems seem to like him very

much, according to the receptions he has gotten in both places in the last few days.

[Clark2008]

28. I'm sure he does get big receptions

and I'm glad he does.

But, I really don't think he would ever turn a red state blue in an election.

To be DNC chair - fine. I even signed onto that site to sign the petition for him. I like his backbone - I just never saw him winning a national election. That's all.

[madfloridian]

30. Yes, he could.

I posted below to you. Let me know if you want to continue.

[Zen Democrat]

43. Bush will be turning red states blue -- it's just a matter of time.

[Clark2008]

51. I hope so, but without media and election reform

and a candidate who can relate to what Southerners are told they need to be related to, I don't see that happening any time soon.

Sorry. I'm not hopeful about this. :(

[madfloridian]

54. "what Southerners are told"....then let the Democrats tell us.

I hate this kind of stuff.

[Clark2008]

78. And I hate it when folks won't live up to reality.

Look - I agree with you that we should frame our own debates. We should take the words away from the neo-cons. We shouldn't let the media tell us what to do.

But, guess what?

IN THE REAL WORLD - that doesn't happen. And won't until we get enough Dems in Congress to take back the Fairness Doctrine and reform elections.

IN THE REAL WORLD - most Southern newspapers and radio and television stations are conservative. Most people here are too busy busting their ass for low pay and no bennies to sit around and search for news outside their prescribed dosage.

IN THE REAL WORLD - most people have had 15 years of Rush, Hannity, Savage or some combination, thereof, shoveled down their throats as to fatten them up for slaughter and they don't hear any alternatives.

You guys really need to learn how to take the precautions of battle before you take the bull by the horns.

[madfloridian]

96. I live in that real world. Don't talk down to me as if I were ignorant!

You don't win by becoming them. How the hell do you expect to get more Dems back in congress if you are so afraid of talking to the South?

I have raised 5 kids, taughts thousands through the years, and I live in the most conservative area of Florida. It is pretty bad, but folks here are human.

Your attitude and what I saw of the Democratic talking heads on the TV this morning make me sick.

I wonder why I am a Democrat.

[MAlibdem]

141. hmmmm...

that hasn't been said before? with the exception of NH, that didn't happen 2 MONTHS AGO

[SheilaT]

69. He appealed to this Midwesterner.

In fact, a lot of Dems here (I'm in Kansas) were inspired by him to get very active in politics this year, and do things like run for office. Didn't notice that happening so much with supporters of Kerry or anyone else.

[Clark2008]

80. It happened with Wes Clark's supporters, too

But we don't get the press.

Three Democrats in my own hometown took on Republicans (they all lost, but this is a Republican area) because they were inspired by Wes Clark to do so.

Didja hear about that?

No?

Why?

[SheilaT]

93. No, I didn't hear about that.

The essential problem is that it doesn't get reported who inspired a particular newcomer to step forward and run for office. I certainly didn't bother to mention in when I was interviewed or when I filled out questionnaires for the press, or any other group that wanted my views on anything.

But I have heard on this board that a fair number of Clark people stepped up and ran for office and have stayed involved, and to that I say, HOORAY!

What I know is that the Democratic party needs to be taken over from the grass roots, and I, for one, am staying involved. I hope you are too.

It's going to take time to wrest the party away from the entrenched business as usual politicians who currently control things, but it can happen.

[Eloriel]

119. Maybe the reason we didn't hear about it

is that Clark didn't bother to actually form an organization to not only strongly, PERSONALLY encourage people to run for office (instead of just haphazardly and inadvertently "inspiring" them to do so), but also help them learn how to run, help them campaign, AND help FUND them -- all of which DFA did.

Bit of a difference, IMO.

Oh, and when Dean was in town (Atlanta) a week ago this past Friday, talking to supporters at a small invitation-only, no press gathering, he once again encouraged folks in the room to consider running for office. One of our new state Senators was there -- one of several DFA candidates who won -- in GA.!!

[Cheswick2.0]

137. say it as often as you like. It's still bullshit

but thanks for playing

[quiet.american]

3. Step away from the Kool-Aid. n/t

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[B0S0X87]

52. would a Republican support Webb???

He doesn't seem like a GOP plant. Unlike Roemer (if it comes down to Dean and Roemer, I'll be out there waving a Dean banner).

[EC]

5. Don't fall for that right-wing

shit...they'll feed us anything to get rid of good people...Bush is from the East too...

[B0S0X87]

12. Yes, but he's very good at posing in a cowboy hat

Look, whether you like it or not (and believe me, I don't) the title "Northeast Liberal" is reviled throughout much of the country. And if we continue to put Northeast liberals in positions of power, we'll see our congressional seats in the south and mid-west continually slip away.

[Telly Savalas]

68. As far as Congressional seats go...

the key is to for the DNC to cede more control to the state and local organizers, which is something Dean intends to do. If we're to make any ground in the South in Congress, we'll have to allow for regional diversity in the party. If this means that our candidates there are more to the right than I'd prefer, that's fine. The lesser of two evils is better than the worse.

In terms of the presidency, though, the South should have no bearings in our strategy. These are how many percentage points Bush won by in Southern States:

Alabama 23
Arkansas 10
Georgia 17
Kentucky 20
Louisiana 14
Maryland 12
Mississippi 20
North Carolina 13
South Carolina 17
Tennessee 14
Virginia 9

We got our asses kicked there. Clearly the South is very out of step with the liberal values that most of the Western industrialized world hold dearly. Even if we run a Joe Lieberman with a Southern drawl, it's iffy that we'd make much of a dent in these numbers and certain that we'd be abandoning the prinicples that make Blue America great.

Instead of focusing on the South, there are other states that we lost by smaller margins that are more deserving of our attention in a presidential campaign. Below are a list of such states with the number of percentage points Kerry lost by:

Colorado 5
Florida 5
Iowa 1
Missouri 7
New Mexico 1
Nevada 3
Ohio 2.5

Beefing up our ground game and appealing to the South might cut our double digit defeats into single digits, but making the same improvements in these 7 states would turn them blue again. If a Northeastern liberal is the guy that's most capable of meeting this task, then I don't give a flying fuck what Bo and Luke Duke think about him.

[Clark2008]

81. ...:then I don't give a flying fuck what Bo and Luke Duke think about him"

And, this stupid, myoptic view of the 40 percent of Southerners who voted against Shrub is KILLING the Democrats.


GRRRRR...

Bo and Luke Duke were good people. So was Andy Griffith.

But, you know something else? They aren't REAL.

Why don't you deal with REAL Southerners and stop pigeon holing us into stupid little categories?

[lukasahero]

147. So stereotyping "Northeastern liberals" = good,

Any stereotyping of the south = bad.

I agree with your first comment ("this... myopic view... is killing the dems") however, I also agree it should apply to the original post regarding the "northeastern liberal" stereotype. Why should I (a northeastern liberal) be ready to let go of southern stereotypes but accept that the south will never vote for me because they won't let go of nothern stereotypes?

I do not agree with the "southern stereotypes" but I'm really, really tired of being told to accept that the northeastern stereotype is "just the way it is".

[deminflorida]

84. I'm with you....and I'm from the south. The only way that any

southern states would moved from the red column to the blue would be after fours years of presidential Democratic rule. Even then those states would probably only be maybe Virginia, Maryland, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee. (Can't believe I'm listing Maryland as a southern state).

Electorally the Red side is disadvantaged due to distribution of population. They know that, and that's why they only need to concentrate their theft and fraud efforts on 7 particular states.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

87. Can't change Maryland from red because it is already Kerry blue.

Virginia has real plausibility and may have been blue this election if Kerry had campaigned there as much as he did in Nevada or had even campaigned there at all. This had to one the bigger mistakes by the campaign strategists (if Kerry had won NM, Iowa and VA w/o OH). The Democratic Party could have won this election without the south and realistically should not be swayed by appealing to the Confederacy in planning for 2008. Pick the best man as DNC chairperson since I would bet that 90% or more of the voters in 2006 will not know or even care who he is much less where he is from. Geographic considerations aside, there is a problem with the fact that I don’t believe there is even one minority or woman even being seriously considered for this post.

[American Tragedy]

105. Bush won Maryland by 12%? Better check your numbers again.

Anyway, I agree. Although, as I've said a hundred times, if the South is truly lost to us, it is surely not the only such region. In the Midwest you find more hopeless states.

Indiana - 21%
Oklahoma - 29%
Idaho - 38%
Wyoming - 40%
Utah - 45%
Kansas - 26%
Montana - 21%
North Dakota - 27%
South Dakota - 21%
Nebraska - 34%

[Telly Savalas]

138. Ah, shit, that's what I get for posting so late at night.

[Eloriel]

124. And what will those numbers be after 4, 8, 12 MORE years of

disinterest on the Dems' part?

I strongly support and agree with what Howard Dean says about the South and West: We need to SHOW UP, for starters.

He says that will energize our base (true) and help candidates down ballot (true). He says that if you SHOW UP and tell them your story, they may not agree with you but they respect you, thinking to themselves, "Well, I may not agree with so-and-so but at least he had the decency to come here in person to tell us what he thinks." It also shows you have a little respect for THEM.

I'll also add: if you SHOW UP in person, and spend money too, you get your message out to at least SOME people unfiltered and unspun. There's a lot to be said for that.

Dean is absolutely, 100% right: we need to SHOW UP in every state and make sure there's a Dem on the ballot for every race, every time.

I'll never forget that story of a DUer (not sure she's still active) who said that she ran for office in FL. She knew she couldn't win, but she ran anyway, and ended up doing a little better than she'd expected. So she ran again, and did better yet. The third time, she won.

You may not win if you show up, but you CANNOT WIN -- ever -- if you don't show up.

[hertopos]

136. Excuse me Maryland is a very blue state

I don't know how you make such a mistake. Maryland has been very blue.
I also feel that Virginia is changing rapidly and it can become blue under the right leadership.

Hertopos

[iwantmycountryback]

155. Bush didn't win Maryland

[Eloriel]

120. That would concern me a lot if it fit Dean. Thankfully, it doesn't.

In fact, I think Dean defies labels. I see people call him Centrist, I see people call him Liberal, and mostly I think they're both wrong.

I think he simply defies labels. Period. He's a little bit of everything -- a new breed. I know he changed MY politics. I used to self-identify as a raving liberal. I haven't retreated from that in any way, but I have augmented my politics and transcended the liberal label and now consider myself primarily a Dean Democrat.

And for me that entails eschewing some of the finer points that anti-Dean people like to discuss here (such as the gun issue) in favor of adopting an inarguably pragmatic and workable solution and concentrating instead on all the stuff that unites us while bringing America back to democracy by getting more people involved in politics and community-building. Let's build the party and stand up as an opposition to the insanity.

And none of that is mere rhetoric, either. It's an action plan, basically.

[msongs]

6. northeasterner?? so is GW Bush :-)

msongs

www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Nitrogenica]

7. We can't tiptoe around anymore. Howard Dean is a great choice.

So are many other Dems! We must call the rights' propaganda what it is, and that includes such propagandist strategy such as demonizing "North-easterners" or "French". Let's call it out!

[pamela]

8. Coyote Democrat?

Is that a Democrat who gets drunk, wakes up next to a freeper and chews his/her own arm off to get away?

[janx]

34. Something like that, yeah.

We have those all over Colorado. What a headache! Ask Ken Salazar--he knows...;-)

[DELUSIONAL]

9. People have heard about Dean but Wellington Web -- WHO that?

Dean raised money for Dems -- in local races -- Deans dozen.

[Why Syzygy]

10. The 'democrats'

have a visual? I don't think so.

How did you come to the determination that 'we are rapidly losing ground'?

NEW ENGLAND?

Get a grip. This is not about geography.

[B0S0X87]

14. you really don't believe we're losing ground

In the last election, we lost five southern senate seats. What was once the solid democrat south is now becoming the solid republican south. The only place we made any gains was the west, which is where Webb is from.

[janx]

15. That's where I'm from , too--

pardner! ;-)

[Why Syzygy]

73. Texas leans Blue

Hubert Vo won a Texas House seat, defeating Talmadge Heflin, a 22-year incumbent and chairman of the Appropriations Committee.

Lloyd Doggett and Chet Edwards overcame their gerrymandered districts and won reelection to Congress.

Dallas elected Lupe Valdez, a lesbian and former migrant worker, as sheriff.

In Austin, Mark Strama took a Texas House seat back from a Republican tied to Tom Delay, and Democrats maintained a hold on all of the civil district court benches.

http://www.democracyfortexas.org/

We like Howard Dean.

[American Tragedy]

107. The Democratic solid South has been dead for forty years!

That is nothing recent. It died with the Civil Rights Acts.

[Eloriel]

125. And are you factoring in any election THEFT?

If not, why not?

[madfloridian]

11. LOL Who is the one who gets the attention in those areas?

In Atlanta last week he was more than well-received. His meeting with supporters in the midwest today, St. Louis, had to be moved from a library to a hotel banquet hall so many showed up.

He is quite well received in the South. Southern people like intelligence, honesty, and integrity also.

I think we should stop the Southern bashing lately. He is well-liked in TX, did a lot of good there, was leading along with Clark in the FL polls in the primaries.

He is going to MS for a fundraiser soon, and a huge crowd is expected.

Sorry you are off base.

[Clark2008]

17. Florida is not really a Southern state

Despite the geography, only in the panhandle will you find scores of born and raised Southerners. The rest of the state are snow birds and immigrants. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but it's not what I would deem "traditionally Southern."

I agree with you about the South-bashing, however. It's quite horrid around here at times.

P.S. I'm just one state up, in Tennessee, and I had no clue he was going to be in Atlanta - and I'm pretty active around here. Atlanta is also a different horse, much like most of Florida. I'm serious. When you're talking out of your party - to moderates and Independents and Southern Dems - Dean isn't their first choice. I'm not trying to pick on you or any Dean fan to be mean, it's just the truth. That said, he is fine for the DNC chair, as long as he doesn't coronate someone like Terry McAwful did - well before many people got to vote in primaries.

[madfloridian]

21. How about SC?

Dean was leading many polls there in Nov. and Dec. He also led in other Southern states much of the time.

It is very Southern here under Jeb and the Southern Baptists. This is Southern Baptist central now.

[Clark2008]

26. As we, unfortunately know, polls aren't votes.

eom

[madfloridian]

27. Only 1/3 got to vote, only 1/3 of the states. Shame.

Clark2008, do you really want to start this? Ask Tom Rinaldo if you should go this Dean/Clark route with me. I hold back a lot of stuff to be kind. I may not always though.

[madfloridian]

And let me know. Ok.

:hi:

[Clark2008]

39. I don't have to ask anyone for shit

But, I will tell you that your Dean got only 6 percent of the vote in my Southern state's primary.

And, I do agree that Terry McAwful shouldn't have stepped his big mouth into the primaries - but, damnit, honey, Dean didn't stand a chance to flip one red state from 2000 to blue. He just didn't.

It's not a Clark vs. Dean thing - it's just the truth.

Don't hold back on my account, but don't misunderstand my point. I don't hate Dean. I just don't think he could have beat Bush - even legitimately.

[madfloridian]

46. I did not get to vote, neither did NY or CA, and over 30 others.

I don't give a you know what that your state voted for someone else. 2/3 never got a chance.

[janx]

47. Well that's great, but why bring it into this thread?

This thread's not about last year's primary. :shrug:

[WI_DEM]

108. look your all over this board taking on Dean as a failed candidate

but how far did your guy get? He was leading in some NH polls and after Iowa even briefly ahead of Dean with Dean falling to third, but Dean came back and came in a solid second. If he had done a bit better and gotten into single digits he would have gotten momentum. Iowa killed momentum for both Dean and Clark. Still Dean got out of the race and still won his home state--which is something no other candidate did after they got out of the race. He also came in second in a number of races around the country including Idaho and Pennsylvania after he got out of the race. In states where both Dean and Clark were still on ballot after both got out of the race--Dean got more votes in most cases--including in Ohio and Florida.

Yes this shouldn't be Dean vs. Clark but it appears you're trying to make it that way based on your comments on this thread.

[Zensea]

117. What does the DNC chair have to do with the presidency?

I mean of course I know they're connected, but I think it's comparing apples and oranges.

[janx]

32. Well then, we'll just have to wait until February and count

the DNC votes, won't we? :shrug: He's done very well with these folks in the south and the midwest. He seems to be the undisputed favorite. But only the votes will tell us with any certainty.

[Clark2008]

41. Grrrr....

I wish you Deanies would read my damn posts before popping off at the keyboard.

I don't CARE if Dean is the chair or not. It doesn't matter to me!

However, I know from the ELECTORATE that Dean isn't popular in the South. Now, how he's received by the Party Elite, I don't know. I don't belong to the Democratic Party. I'm an Independent who tends to vote Democratic (more so since Bush became president).

[madfloridian]

49. Do NOT start the insulting "you deanies" stuff.

It is a put down of a lot of good people, and most have tried to be nice.

[Clark2008]

53. You get offended when someone calls you a "Deanie?"

Why?

I don't get offended when someone calls me a Clarkie.

Stop being so defensive.

The post I read was that "Dean is well received in the South."

It didn't say "with the Party Elite."

I was pointing out that that statement isn't true with the voters.

[madfloridian]

55. If you are doing it to insult.

You are appearing to be offensive about this. Every time stuff starts it is always the Dean people are so defensive....yeh, right the hell after we have been insulted.

Oh, yes, we are.

[Clark2008]

79. Nope, wasn't trying to "offend" you.

I was making a point that I live in the Bible Belt and YOU live in another part of the South that is geographically South, but not really "South."

'Tis all and you took it the wrong way.

[madfloridian]

97. No, I took it the way it was meant.

.

[janx]

50. This thread is about the DNC chair position, last I looked.

?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. Jeb's A Roman Catholic...

eom

[WorseBeforeBetter]

99. So Poppy and Mrs. Poppy are...

Episcopalian, Shrub is a "born-again Methodist" (whatever the hell that is), and Jeb is Roman Catholic? Interesting. Wonder where "Sex Romp" Neil and "Security" Marvin fit into the big scheme of things.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. Jeb Converted To The Religion Of His Wife

eom

[Dems4HowardDean]

151. I'm from SC and you can see from my handle I'm a Deaniac!

[janx]

154. Hi!

:hi:

You should drop into the DFA group sometime:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=244

[Dems4HowardDean]

156. Thanks for the link I will do that!

[Eloriel]

128. You had no clue he was in Atlanta because you weren't INVITED

It was designed as a small, BY INVITATION ONLY gathering. I myself only found out the night before and hustled my butt to email the head honcho to ask for an invitation, which I got minutes before I needed to leave to get there.

And you also don't know what you're talking about with this remark:

When you're talking out of your party - to moderates and Independents and Southern Dems - Dean isn't their first choice.

Just who WOULD their first pick be -- Clark? Dean drew more people from among Independents, Libertarians and even Republicans than any other candidate -- and still WILL. He also drew Greens, Dems, Socialists, and lotsa people who had NEVER been involved in politics before. In fact, during the primaries early on he used to ask people attending his appearances how many hadn't been involved in politics before or n the last 10 years or more, and invariably half or more would raise their hands. Many of those are still involved; some are now elected.

[Mira]

16. I also disagree with that

Dean is not a person who would "fall out" the way Kerry did. He has appeal everywhere in my circles in a red state.

Never move towards the center just to appease,
instead, make a better case for your positions, and never ever forget that it was 59 million vs. 56 million (best memory, forgive if I'm wrong, don't flame).
Counting that the election was fraudulent, and summarily rigged nationwide, I simply go about my life knowing that one in two I encounter are on my side. MINIMUM>
therefore we have no reason to move towards them.
Let us be ourselves, and let us be solid, vocal, uncowed, justifiably furious, and on the left.

[Eloriel]

129. Excellent, Mira

Well said.

And welcome to DU.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. How about if he moves to Nebraska?

Seriously, I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference where the DNC chair is from. Geography can make a difference for a presidential candidate, but it's pretty irrelevant otherwise. BTW, I'm in Minnesota, and I'd like Dean to get the DNC job.

[Clark2008]

19. LOL!

That is true about the DNC chair.

I didn't even know who it was until I started working on Clark's campaign!

(Of course, until Bush moved the Republicans to the right of Hitler, I was an Independent. I guess I'm a Dem, now. A Wes Clark Democrat.)

[demwing]

115. What differentiates a "Wes Clark" dem?

From any other Dem?

[Eloriel]

130. Good question

My guess: They're not really Dems, certainly not without Clark. Kinda like Clark himself. :evilgrin:

[demwing]

150. Clark2008, I ask you again, ...

what do YOU mean by "Im a Wes Clark Democrat?"

[farmbo]

20. A Nor'Easter with an "A" rating from the NRA...

... and, Oh yeah...He Won't Be On The Ticket In 2008.

[janx]

25. He has said at two of these regional meetings that if he gets

the DNC slot, he won't run for president in 2008, yes.

[Old and In the Way]

23. Are you saying Southerners are regional bigots?

That they can't be counted on to evaluate a person on their merits and experience without resorting to a regional bias to make their determination?

That's not very nice.

Sorry, no sale.

[B0S0X87]

31. I'm not saying that

What I am saying is that the many Americans tend to vote for whichever party they are registered with. And more and more southerners and midwesterners are registering with the Republican party, whom they see as more in touch with the average American.

[charlie]

37. Right

And Dean (like Webb) has been hammering on the Democrats about getting serious about their ground game in the south and west. Remember, he was the one who got piled on from all corners for merely broaching the subject during the primaries.

[On the Road]

24. Dean's Not Running for Office

Geography is irrelevant. His message and effect on the party is.

Dean's the only candidate with a reasonable chance who's not a front-office type. That's the most important quality this time around.

[BlueInRed]

29. IMO, there are many kinds of Northeasterners, and I think some sell,

and some don't. The feisty, straight-talker like Dean, Cuomo, etc is different from the more patrician and esoteric kind like Kerry. (I guess what I'm saying is it's more attitude than anything else.)

I saw a lot of Texans say they liked Dean and didn't like Kerry. They liked Dean's feisty attitude. My brother's in a Texas RR labor union and lots of those guys loved Dean, but couldn't stand Kerry. A lot of those same guys had previously voted for Perot and McCain.

I also think it's easier to sell a Southerner or Midwesterner for President. Part of that has as much to do with understanding how the rural people live as anything else. Dean gets the rural life and values. We should also remember that the only way Kennedy won was to make a deal with LBJ.

I love Dean for President, but I do think he would have had to had someone like Clark at his side. And it might have worked better with Clark on the top of the ticket.

For DNC chair, DEAN is great! I have seen ZERO evidence that there is any relationship between winning and the location the DNC chair hails from. The party chair should hail from a Blue or Purple state. They are the party leader, not the candidate.

[kentuck]

33. I don't accept your premise...

"...right now the Democrats are seen as the party of New England vegetarians who drive subarus and wish everybody would be nice to each other..."

Is that right??

[B0S0X87]

36. It's an idiotic stereotype as I said in my first post

but one that is easily exploited when we put Northeasterner after Northeasterner in powerful positions.

[NoPasaran]

35. I guess you're right

Nobody in Texas likes Dean, as this photo proves...

[BlueInRed]

38. jinx

I was saying the exact same thing as you were posting this photo from TX!

[B0S0X87]

40. That picture proves nothing

I bet you Pat Robertson had supporters in Berkeley.

The voter I am concerned about is not the one who is interested in politics and comes to rallies. It's the one who sees a brief glimpse of each candidate on t.v. and votes for the man he sees as "in tune" with his beliefs.

[janx]

61. Do you honestly think that the DNC members who will be doing

the voting are going to base their votes on what you just described? I think they're a little smarter and more involved than that.

[Orangepeel]

42. nobody bases their votes on who the chair of a party is

nobody even knows who the party chair is, except the very few of us who are really involved. I'll bet 75% of the people here don't know who the republican party chair is.

The party chair needs to fire up the party base, raise money, and organize. Nobody outside of the party faithful care.

[imenja]

44. no one has been saying?

I don't think you've been listening. It's one of the major concerns raised against him and in favor of the others. Some, like yourself, want someone with a feel for the middle of the country.

[B0S0X87]

48. Well, I only have time to come here about once a day

and from what I've seen, people are against him because he's controversial and seen as unstable. Frankly, I started to like him after the "I have a scream" speech. Showed that he has some energy.

[charlie]

59. Ah, there you go then

Take the time, go check him out, it'll be worth the trouble. I think you'll find there's nothing Webb's advocating that Dean isn't already intent to deliver. And his tough plainspoken directness can assuage your fears that he won't "sell" in the south and west. I'm not a Deanite, but I believe the party will have wasted a grand opportunity to boost its reversal of fortunes if it doesn't install Dean as chair.

[mahina]

77. Unstable? They are selling that on hate radio.

According to the hate salesmen, Al Gore and John Kerry and Howard Dean are unstable. They throw in dissing vet McCain just to really lick the bottom of the barrel. I however am not buying that line because I actually know something about him. Not too many other buyers here either.

[sunnystarr]

121. Which is exactly why Dean is man for the job!!

They only villify those who they're afraid of. They did a character assassination on Dean so any Dem that had doubt about Dean can now be assured that Dean will do the best job of any of the candidates.

[mahina]

122. Agreed 100%!

[Zen Democrat]

45. Seems to me that the DNC Chair SHOULD be from a Blue State. eom

[Nite Owl]

56. To me the idea is to get the

red states to become more like the blue states. I don't want to be like them. Dean can get that across. They just need a good reason to see that they are voting against their own interests in the south.

[Warpy]

57. Uh, a northeasterner WON

Don't forget the story the exit polls told, and that is that the Bush "win" was only obtained through massive fraud.

I don't think the region matters quite so much as the message does.

If the Democrats remain DLC-led, corporatist, pro globalization, antilabor, and hostile to the interests of ordinary working people, they will continue to lose elections.

The GOP plays to their intolerant, racist, religious fundamentalist base very well. If the Democrats don't start playing to theirs, they deserve to fade into irrelevancy, no matter who leads them.

[BlueInRed]

62. good point! n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

58. That stereotype needs to be shattered...

whether Dean is selected or not. I'm sick of the New England bashing! Why didn't anyone from the Kerry camp stress frugality, strong work ethic, "Yankee" ingenuity, tolerance, etc. during the campaign? Kerry just rolled over anytime Smirk called him a "Northeastern liberal." (I'm not suggesting Kerry call him a "Lazy Texan," but surely he could have come up with a zinger response!) At least Ted Kennedy reminded Americans during his convention speech of the role New England has played (and continues to play) in this country. I'm not familiar with Wellington Webb, but thanks to your post, will read up on him (although I truly believe Dean is the answer). There were a couple of good articles in The Nation and American Prospect re Dems who won in the Rockies:

The Democrats' Da Vinci Code
http://www.alternet.org/election04/20702/

Democrats Score in the Rockies
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041206&s=nichols

I would tend to agree with this from the Da Vinci Code article:

"This is why populism is ultimately the way back for Democrats. Because, as red-region progressives show, having the guts to stand up for middle America – even when it draws the ire of corporate America – is as powerful a statement about morality and authenticity as any of the GOP's demagoguery on "guns, God, and gays.""

Kee-rist, Northeasterners tend to be healthier, wealthier, better educated, have lower divorce rates, fewer teen pregnancies, etc. That "middle America" we are supposedly losing should be so lucky.

Signed,
A Subaru-driving Virginian

[Why Syzygy]

75. I wish

Kerry had gone after gwb as fiercely as he did Howard Dean.

He would be walking into the oval office soon.
But noooooooooo... He gave gwb a break.
Never gave Dean one.

hmmm

[WorseBeforeBetter]

104. You and me both!

Kerry had a winning approach in Debate #1: pit the lesser son against the superior father (perhaps someone read "Bush on the Couch"). He REALLY got under Shrub's skin and it was a JOY to watch. I remember feeling so smug at work the next day, but that feeling was shot to hell pretty quickly with Debates #2 and #3.

I truly believe that those on both sides know that if "the masses" get past the bogus scream and actually listen to Dean, that he would be a force to be reckoned with. He's right on:

--Invading Iraq (it WAS a colossal mistake).
--Fiscal responsbility.
--Civil unions v. gay marriage (the majority of Americans support civil unions--Kerry should have better framed the argument).
--States' rights on guns (personally, I'd regulate the hell out of guns, but Dean's positions would appeal to the gun owners across the country).
--Being "even-handed" in our approach between Israelis and Palestinians.
--Breaking up huge media conglomerates.
--The neocons' dismantling of New Deal programs (when Social Security is destroyed, I guarantee everyone but that top 1 or 2% will be a damn Democrat).

Sorry, I'm preaching to the choir I guess - needed to vent! :-)

[Why Syzygy]

135. The choir

likes the preaching!

"Bogus" .. right on.

[Warren Stupidity]

60. hey!

im a northeastern vegetarian who drives a subaru, what's up with that?

I also think everyone ought to be nice to each other, except for rethuglicans, who can all crawl into a cave and die for all I care at this point.

[B0S0X87]

63. There's nothing wrong with that

Hell, I looked at an Outback when I was shopping for a new car last month (decided on a highlander in the end), but it's a common stereotype for democrats, and one we need to get rid of.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. seriously though

how about we stop apologizing for who we are and what we believe in. We are right. They are wrong. It is not just a matter of opinion. They are wrong on the facts. Reality will eventually bite them in the ass. Driving a subaru makes sense. Driving a hummer is STOOPID.

[charlie]

65. Lol

This meat-eating southerner damn near wept when he had to sell his old faithful 1982 Subaru GL hatchback before going overseas. Never had a better car.

[VPStoltz]

66. So was "*"

Shrub is Northeastern blue blood himself. Only when he couldn't win an election in Texas after his daddy went down there to rip off somebody back then did he start this completely made up phony Texas asshole routine. He has to distance himself from his past by defiling it. But the Evil Bush Empire still maintains a "compound" up in Maine remember? Dean ought to make that a talking point.

[Pirate Smile]

67. Does anyone here actually get to vote? I certainly don't. We aren't

actually deciding this one.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

71. Wellington Webb? DLC's 100 to Watch? DLC Pick of the Week?

THAT Wellington Webb??

ROFLMAO

Why I am a Democrat: "I share the DLC's ideals of promoting opportunity for all, demanding responsibility from everyone, and fostering a new sense of community."

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=104&subid=210&contentid=1838

Wellington Webb has long been active with the DLC, and was one of the charter members of the DLC's Local Officials Network.

No thanks. I'm afraid I'm going to have to pass.

[GRLMGC]

72. Oh right because Northeasterners aren't real Americans

It's this kind of shit that pisses me off. Dean is well suited, in my opinion, to the job of DNC chair. He'll bring an aggressiveness that is sorely needed. Who the fuck cares that he's from the Northeast? Does that make him less worthy? That's a ridiculous assertion. The job should go to he/she who is best suited to it. Region shouldn't matter.

[Hippo_Tron]

74. Nobody outside of the party gives a shit about who our chairman is

Frankly I read about politics every day and I couldn't tell you where Terry McCauliffe or Ed Gillespie are from.

[mahina]

76. Why Dean? He tells the deepest truths with the fewest syllables possible.

You feel in your heart that he is telling the truth, from the heart. That is what we need. That is why the r's are attacking on his strength, hyping the bs non-event scream.
We get miliseconds to break through the idea barriers of media censorship and corporate controlled media, before we even talk about the people.
Dean is the man.

[digno dave]

82. NE ultra-sensitivites run rampant on this site. All to our demise. NT

[Q]

83. Democrats MUST STOP falling for this propaganda...

...that only certain people from certain states can win elections.

This is part of the psychological warfare being waged against Democrats by RWingers in an attempt to keep the party moving to the right and voting for candidates acceptable to Republicans.

[janx]

103. Exactly. It's a provincial, backwards mindset that the

far right uses as a wedge.

[serryjw]

85. Dean is perfect for DNC chair because

He is a great fundraiser
He is framing messaging dems want to hear
the young people love him and they are the future of this party

We can't run this party as Republican lite and do what we think'they' want us to do.As for the Sounth? Look back on the Clinton 1992 map. We will again win when we can get someone to do this with a progessive message.

I was never a Dean supporter for Prez for many reasons but I can't think of a better DNC chair.

[rman]

86. OMG, Dems are seen as lefties...

We can't have that now can we?
</end sarcasm>

[lojasmo]

88. So prejudices held by idiots should determine the direction of the party?

Bad policy.

[lojasmo]

89. You think a Webb can sway southern voters? LOL

Talk about your prejudices.....You do know Webb is black, right?

[robbedvoter]

90. While I have no vote/hope in the DNC thingy, I am tired of this civil war

being readjudicated on daily basis. We won the civil war. get TF over it. After this election it's not just the South that can hate the North with impunity. I hate you too. Or better said: enough with the geographical discrimination.
Kerry won. we were robbed, stick your images where the sun don't shine - I HAVE HAD IT!

[salin]

91. The biggest flaw in this argument is an assumption that...

Dean would get stereotyped and vilified by the right according to a stereotype that would be used to attempt to weaken the party...

But that another candidate would not get vilified on a different front that would be used to attempt to weaken the party...

Wake up folks- this was foolish thinking within the primaries and it is foolish thinking now. They will find a way to villify WHOEVER is national chair - and unless we work from that presumption and prepare to counter accordingly... it will work.

From the party that tipped their hat in 2002 as painting a war hero who lost limbs in service to his country as a friend of terrorists... while supporting a draft dodger (Cleland vs Chambliss)... they will find a way to do damage and find and/or create wedges and they will do so in a virulent way regardless of who it is that is selected.

[leesa]

92. Bush is a Northeastener. What's the point?

Quit parroting the Republican Talking Points.

[Geek_Girl]

94. DNC Chair is not an elected official that represent the people

Why would it matter where he is from? I know southerners tend to like their own. But to be quite frank no one gives a crap where the the DNC chair is from. If I asked the most xenophobic of my Southern fundie co-workers, if he cared if Dean or Frost got the position, he would say Dean who, Frost who? It just doesn't matter in this case. If he was running for president you would have a point.

Right now Democrats need to pick the best person for chair, that will energize the base, to vote for, donate to, and volunteer to work for the democratic candidates, ass well as communicate democratic ideals effectively.

[TankLV]

98. I, for one, am just a sick and tired of "southern" presidents as I am of

the apparent eventual corronation of Jebthro to succeed king georges I & II as heir apparent to the "thrown" of caesar.

I would love to see ANYBODY but a southern candidate.

God knows we've had our fill of them.

[Sparkly]

100. I disagree

Even recently, I might have agreed, but at this point I don't. Three main reasons:

First of all, I don't think what you're describing matters much for the DNC Chair. People don't have to vote for him.

Second, as a native northeasterner, I understand that southerners apparently have a harder time accepting us than v/v when it comes to voting; but we can't keep denying the range of who we all are in order to be more like Republicans or appeal to people's prejudices, either. We have a proud tradition in the northeast; I don't like the idea of putting talent from any particular region in a closet because of other people's biases.

Third, I don't think we need to fear those biases because I think the right person can break through them. Howard Dean is "plain-spoken" in a way that people can understand -- he's straightforward and not formal or stilted in his approach (the stereotype of northerners, as I understand it). He's also gifted as a leader, a speaker, and an organizer, judging by how he inspired so many people and particularly young people; he's energetic and he's bold.

We need that; we need something really new and exciting right now, and above all I think this is the time to be unafraid to break the molds, to leave traditions aside, to stop couching things in terms of what Republicans will think or say in response, to stop being conciliatory toward the fascists, to stop being apologists for anything. We should be unafraid to act according to our own principles, and lead from there; and our principles include equality for people from all regions. If others have a problem, let's lead them to see why they're wrong, not change our behavior to match their problem. Yes, we still need to appeal to people, but I think he can.

I don't know if I'm saying this well. I just think it's a general pattern we need to break now and especially with a position like DNC chair, we shouldn't be afraid to do it. :)

[marcologico]

101. ...is that he's a payola-paying humbug feeding disinformation to gullible

contributors. Who needs policies when you've got the internet in your pocket?

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marcologico]

133. link to blog by former Dean staffer:

http://zonkette.blogspot.com/2005/01/financially-interested-blogging.html

See for yourself.

[Dr Fate]

102. He is not running for the Southern primaries.

I disagree w/ you.

We need a frank, "tell it like it is" Democrat like Dean in an important, high-profile position like DNC chair...

[WI_DEM]

106. Oh my god what will the southerners say!! A northeasterner

Maybe the South should understand that the Civil War is over. We in the North supported Carter, Clinton and Gore--we can vote and support southerners--isn't it about time the south did the same in reverse?

[QC]

113. The only place I ever encounter people trying to refight the Civil War

is DU. That's a silly little line. Sectional animosity in this country has very little to do with the War and much to do with the snidely dismissive attitude toward "flyover country" that abounds right here on this site.

Besides, it's not only in the south where northeastern candidates don't do well. Consider the example of Wisconsin, which Bush came within less than half of one percent of winning. And then there's Iowa, a once reliably Democratic state that went for Bush.

Having said that, I do support Dean for party chairman.

[American Tragedy]

109. If we are to assume that southerners can't handle a yankee

I doubt that they would be able to deal with Webb. Think about it.

[Bouncy Ball]

110. As someone else said

Dean's not running for public office. This is DNC chair. Get a grip, for crying out loud.

Who fucking CARES? Why are you allowing the right to define you and your party? I'm in Texas and I don't give a SHIT where Dean is from.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beacho]

112. DLC must be peeing their pants

How many candidates have they thrown into the breach in this battle?

They got spanked everytime, and if they pull off sliding someone in there that the rank and file don't want, they'll be even more screwed.

Time to storm the winter palace!

(on edit) regarding the regional 'thingy', being from the Left Coast I am as guilty of 'southern bashing' as many here, but I am just damn tired of it, That being said, I am tired of regionalism period. It's been an all too effective tool to keep the unwashed masses at odds with each other by certain factions(that will remain nameless) for the last thirty years. I believe it's time to put this one on the priority target list.

[dvaravati]

114. never heard of Webb

a quick google and it seems like he is a big corporation lackey.

[nickshepDEM]

116. I agree to a certain extenet.

[PowerToThePeople]

123. I had a dream a few nights ago,

and it was about chosing between Dean and Nader for the next "big guy on campus." I had to make the deciding vote on who it would be(5 or 7 people involved). Had said that Nader would be the better choice, but that Dean would be more readily accepted by the general populace. I kinda felt like a sell-out for not standing up 100% for my values.. Oh well, just a dream.

[Kipepeo]

126. This argument is so silly

I hear it mostly being put forth by right-wingers but then picked up and spread unintentionally (?) by Dems.

We do not need a southerner to win. There is nothing wrong with Northeasterners and nothing inherent about being a northeasterner that makes one unappealing to southerners.

If you put forth that there is you are buying into the language created by Repukes and ceding the argument to them that yes Northeasterners *are* all of those things. Which is just absurd....fight the mis-characterization, don't accept it and fight on their terms.

[B0S0X87]

132. Now I feel like an idiot

Having been maligned by posters from coast to coast, I've decided that opposing Dean on geographical terms is pretty weak. The vast majority of people don't even know who the party chairman is, and the chairman doesn't decide who the candidates for the actual elections are.

I still support Webb, and I still worry about our image, but I'm conceding my argument on the basis of being retarded.

Do you get second chances here at DU?

[mahina]

142. There's hope for you yet.

I believe in redemption....*

And appreciate your humility. Second chances for days.






*5 cents a bottle.

[Vinca]

131. Personally, I don't know why everyone's got their panties in a knot

over the DNC chair. Until the past election season I'd never heard of Terry McAuliffe and I presume he held the chair for some time before. Does anyone truly think Ma and Pa Clampett out in East Yahoo are going to care if the DNC chair is the former governor of a northeastern state? I don't think so. The only people who are going to be aware of it are the ones who watch the Sunday morning news/talk shows and we wouldn't be influenced one way or another by a person being named to chair either party. Dean is intelligent, articulate and doesn't feel the need to be a Republican clone to promote the party. I like him.

[Miami Liberal]

134. Amen n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

140. Actually, I think those Jimmy Swaggert-type

preachers in their mega-churches will bash Dean from the pulpit if he is selected (...waiting for a bolt of lightning to strike...phew!...). It will ripple well beyond the relatively tame Tim Russert/Bob Schieffer crowd; he'll be constantly vilified by the RW media. Just like that little shit Sean can't go a day without blaming Bill Clinton for something, I'm sure Dean would be on his daily hit list as well. The Rs view this as war, Dean is controversial, and we gotta be prepared for battle, so to speak, if he is selected.

[mahina]

143. I think you're right, they will attack Dean, but that will backfire

to the degree that Dean gets his message through the filter, which is his talent.

[MAlibdem]

139. This KIND OF THINKING IS KILLING US

It doesn't matter where you're from, that should be the point. We're a 50 state party, vermont is one of those states.

[gorbal]

144. I know

It will be sad to explain it all to my little brother.
"No Jimmy, I'm sorry, you can't be president when you grow up. Your a Democrat from a Blue State."

Now I realize why Arnold is pretending to be republican.

[BlueInRed]

145. It just occurred to me, isn't McAuliffe from the NE????

and this is the guy some DLCers want to stay on to stop Dean. So am I wrong, isn't Terry from the NE?

[w4rma]

148. Why do you think that the Southern racists are going to listen to a black

man? I'm sure Mr. Webb is qualified, but it seems to me that that is an even higher obstacle for Southerners/Conservatives than the North East label.

We want to bring those folks into our party and help them shed their xenophobia. I really don't see your logic as to how Webb would be better at doing this than Dean.

[Teaser]

149. DNC head is not the president.

Nobody cares where the DNC head is from. He's not an elected representative.

[iwantmycountryback]

152. While he is from the Northeast

It's not like he's from a state with huge urban areas. Vermont's a very rural state and him being not so pro-gun control helps him. He doesn't seem so "patrician" like Kerry.

[Zenlitened]

153. Does this qualify as South-bashing?

Is the statement that Southerners are so bigoted that they will cross someone off the list just for being a "Yankee"?

:shrug: