Sen. Reid to Stephanopoulis: "STAY IN IRAQ?"....

[itzamirakul]

Why am I just finding out that this man who is the head of our congressional democrats is in favor of the war in Iraq?

Why didn't he bring up the fact that we went into war based on a lie?

If there was EVER a time for our democratic leaders to stand up and speak out it is now!

[lastknowngood]

1. Because he's not a Democratic leader he's a repug follower

n/t

[itzamirakul]

2. Another DLC member? n/t

[quaoar]

3. What exactly is his position on Iraq?

Because saying "stay in Iraq" does not necessarily mean he favorsa the war. Kerry basically said that -- that now that we were there and in it up to our eyeballs, we could not just pack up and leave.

[bahrbearian]

4. Who is to ask the last soldier to die for an unjust cause?

[President Jesus]

6. Leaving those people in total chaos (caused by our hand) is not...

...'just' either.

Regardless of how much we opposed the invasion and Bushco in general, the facts are this country (of which we are citizens) stirred up a serious shitstorm over there. For this reason we have an obligation to try to stabilize and fix what was done there.

Quixotic? probably. Unjust? arguably not. It would be more unjust to leave the population in utter chaos.

[bahrbearian]

8. I know, but we did it in Viet Nam, I sometimes wonder if we could

convince Other Nations to step in if we promise to withdraw our troops and U.S. corporations. out with no interference by US.

[leesa]

17. Hellloooo. We CAN'T do a damn thing to restore order. WE are the cause

of the problem and we have ZERO credibility in Iraq or anywhere else in the world. Face reality, man.

[President Jesus]

18. the issue is whether our soldiers are dying unjustly

and I am simply suggesting that now they are not dying for an unjust cause. Yes, the invasion was unjust and immoral. Trying to fix the damage done by this unjust act is not.

I argue that simply cutting and running after creating a shitstorm of epic proportions is immoral. US soldiers dying now, as harsh as this sounds, is the price this country is paying for taking a bat to a hornets' nest.

The US caused the problem, but that doesn't mean we ARE the problem, and it certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to fix the problem.

Yes, we need to get the hell out of there, but more importantly, we must ensure protection of the population before we bug out. It's the right thing to do.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. The issue is whether our soldiers are killing unjustly.

And, that's not really an "issue", it's a fact.

[President Jesus]

29. well, they're not using carbombs on crowded streets...

...and they are trying to kill those that are.

Look, the invasion was a black-and-white issue in my book. It was plain wrong.

It's no longer black-and-white. The vast majority of victims in these attacks are Iraqis, not Americans. We have an obligation to do something, because the situation there is of our making. It would be terrific if we could only send the jackasses that voted for Bush to fix this mess (or die trying), but that's not how it works, is it?

[leesa]

33. No we just drop cluster bombs. You don't have a clue what you are

talking about.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. The troops aren't "fixing" anything. They only make it worse.

Just like in Vietnam where the troops couldn't "cut and run" because there would be a "bloodbath"....that didn't happen when they were kicked out.

Saying that the insurgents are using carbombs and killing Iraqis is naive. Would you rather they lined up in neat rows and shot it out with the "world's mightiest military"? Whether an Iraqi is blown up by a car bomb, shot by GI, beheaded, or dismembered by a "smart" bomb or toasted in napalm, it makes little difference to the victim.

It's past time to get the hell out of Iraq and leave it to the Iraqis to decide what to do with their country.

[itzamirakul]

26. How in the heck can we "fix" the situation

that we caused with "more of the same?" How in the world can we stabilize a group of people who just become more and more angry everyday that they see our soldiers in their country?

How is this war ever going to be ended because these people fight tit-for-tat...you kill my dog, I'll kill your cat....you kill innocent Iraqi women and children, we kill American soldiers and mercenaries...and on and on.....

Do we have to stabilize the country enough to allow an American Company to put a secure oiline out from Iraq?

What do we find as a finite place - an end - a projected situation that we can point to NOW that tells us how stable the country must be before we leave? In other words - what does Iraq have to LOOK LIKE before we finally get out...all the way OUT?

[Geek_Girl]

30. The Problem is

I don't believe Bush's intention is to do any good for Iraq or the Iraqi people. He is there to make a few rich folks richer and make some kind of statement to his father. The Neo-cons are there because they believe by whipping out the Arab trouble makers they will bring peace to Israel.

These are not just reason for Invading or occupying another country. Therefore the invasion is unjust the occupation is unjust and nothing more than a full pull out of Iraq will suffice at this point to bring credibility back to the US. Democrats need cohesion on this issue if we want to win in '06 and '08. The war is becoming increasingly more unpopular with the Americas and if the Democrats want to win they are going to have to acknowledge that the Iraq war and the occupation is a mistake.

[President Jesus]

38. to pretend pulling out is black-and-white is to be as foolish as *

it's just not that simple...and if you make it that simple (ie cut and run) the US now becomes guilty of immorally invading a country, and then immorally leaving it in shambles.

I know what I'm saying is unpopular, and I'm not endorsing the way the US is going about trying to stabilize that country. But leaving that country in absolute ruin after ruining it is simply too inhumane to contemplate. This country has to face the music for what it's done and try to right that wrong.

Don't be so simple-minded as to think this is some kind of blank-check endorsement of current US policy in Iraq.

[Geek_Girl]

41. You talk as if we have sane people running the country

We don't have that luxury.

Is staying in Iraq and stabilizing the country what we should be doing? Yes, if we had leadership that was committed to doing that.

But right now we have greedy incompetent wackos running the country, with 0% chance of stabilizing Iraq.

So logically the best option for America, Iraq and the world is to pull out before we make an even bigger mess of things.

[leesa]

32. We ARE the problem. What you are proposing can't work.

[President Jesus]

39. I'm not proposing anything. I'm saying we have a moral obligation.

[eridani]

46. Yes. To pay for the damage

Iraq would 'stabilize' a hell of a lot faster without a 60% unemployment rate caused by Bush thugs hiring their pals to fake the job of 'fixing' it. They'd get it done far more cheaply as well.

[itzamirakul]

10. OK...my impression was that he feels

much the same as you do - that we connot just leave.

But I think the part that disturbed me most was that he seemed to agree with the current PREMISE of the war - using troops (he favors getting more international troops involved)to establish democracy.

Now that it has been proven that there were no WMDs and now that Saddam has been captured - what POSSIBLE reason could we have for not pulling out TOTALLY right now and letting those people put their own government together? We have demolished antiquities and historical sites, leveled cities, killed more than 100,000 innocent Iraqis and 140,000 (some say 8,000) of our own troops. ALL BASED ON A LIE.

How can we even have the arrogance - the temerity - to continue to stay in Iraq one second longer?

[xchrom]

13. that may be the best thing.

as long as we are there -- the violence goes on -- is that what you are looking for?

the contry is going to divide -- and there is little reason to stop that progression -- a shi'ite south. a sunni and a kurdish north.

that's about the only way to bring stability.

[spanone]

5. No. Democratic leaders should stand and say they were lied to.

Spineless, every damn one of them.

[robbedvoter]

7. In this spirit, the post of the day on Kos

Who will be thre Dem nominee in 2008?
My guess is it will be a Bush (4.00 / 2)
Maybe Jeb, maybe Neil, maybe Dorothy, will run against one of the other Bushes.  Or Jenna or Barbara.  The Dems will have moved more to the "center" and will field a Bush/Lieberman ticket, against the Republican Bush/Bush ticket.
by tangoasg

[itzamirakul]

11. LOL...hadn't thought of it

that way.

Funny, I was just thinking this morning....the way Tony Blair has given England away to the U.S....maybe they will "off" the Queen and take over on the Bush/Blair Monarchy

Like Napoleon, * can assign brothers and children their own personal realms. Neil can be Prez of The Caribbean Islands and all of South America. Jeb can have all of AFrica and GWB will give himself the Middle East because it contains most of the oil and afterall, he IS an oilman....The kids get to split up anything left over.

[lojasmo]

9. Harry Reid is a republican....DINO

pro gun, anti choice, pro NAFTA, yes on IWR, yes on NCLB, yes on Patriot act, yes on anti-flag burning ammendment....it goes on and on. The democratic party is absolutely fucked.

Oh, he's promoting a pro-war anti choice candidate for DNC chair too.

[itzamirakul]

12. I think you are right here because

a lot of congressional people won't want to go against the leader. He might choose to just ignore the concerns of any that oppose him. He will not be a very strong voice for the Progressive" voice in the Party. And that's what we need.

[President Jesus]

20. bullshit. watch today's interview with Stephanopoulos

give the guy a chance before you jerk your knee.

[lojasmo]

40. Have you seen h is voting record?

He's ten pounds of bullshit in a five pound sack. If you think I just came into this game, you're mistaken.

[tx_dem41]

14. You're as good at spinning as the Republicans and the MSM are...

"In favor of the war in Iraq". I'm impressed you so nimbly got that line out of the facts.

[leesa]

15. They agree with it. They agree with most of Bush's policies.

[KoKo]

16. The Repugs send out The Big Guns and we send out our Cannon Fodder

From what I saw on Russert this a.m. before I turned it off...and what I'm reading on the board this a.m. from DU'ers who watched that and the other "talking head" shows...our Dems are doing their same floundering dig me in the hole deeper routine we've seen for over six years now.

Nothing has changed for them...yet we here have worked our butts off and suffered terrible stress and become fringe folks to family and friends defending our Party...and our Party sends out more tongue tied idiots to
go against the folks who've put us in enormous debt, took us into war against a sovereign country against international law, and has worked to dismantle every safety net for the poor and is eroding our freedom of speech and freedom to have a decent wage and a decent job.

This is our Democratic Party...WEENIES....At least what they send to go up against the MEDIA! Turn Tail and run...except for the few who stand with us...and it is a very few who have to be prodded and faxed/phoned and e-mailed before they will stand. The Repugs bask in the glory of their new "Sun God" and we are left to take out the garbage. :grr:

[President Jesus]

19. umm...Rahm Emmanuel IS a big gun

kinda sad, isn't it?

He's the DCCC chair, and easily considered one of the top 10 most powerful ELECTED Democrats in the country today.

[Neshanic]

23. Powerfull as a pronlonged yawn. Reid? He's on board. Move along.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. The "opposition" party speaks. But, not in opposition to war crimes.

Kissing Republican ass must be a prerequisite for "leadership" positions in the Democratic Party nowadays.

[Cocoa]

22. Reid won't get us out of Iraq

it will be people like Kucinich, Lynn Woolsey, Pete Stark, and the others who signed the letter recently to Bush demanding we begin making withdrawal plans.

But Reid will lead us on protecting Social Security, and also he said he'd filibuster the judges again.

[Neshanic]

25. No marginal Repub-lite from Nevada will be effective at anything.

Maybe getting comped at Vegas Hotels, but that's about it.

[Cocoa]

28. recycled Daschle-bashing namecalling

it begins all over again, and it will reach its height at the most crucial moments of the SS debate.

How long before we see homophobic photoshop jobs on Reid appear repeatedly and propagandistically here on DU, the way we did with Daschle?

One thing I recall about the propaganda campaign against Daschle, it peaked at key moments, during the judges standoff, and at other similar times, and coincidentally when the attacks from Rush, etc. also were peaking.

[Dr Fate]

31. Daschle was his own worst enemy.

My favorite Daschle moment sums up his entire post 2000 career:

Daschle: "I think Bush is an honest man."

This was said not 2 hours after Bush lied 3 times in a press conference concering the Harkengate scandal.

DEMS lose when they refuse to tell the truth about Republicans.

I love ya Cocoa- but we need to stop making excuses for these guys.

[Cocoa]

34. I'm not talking about whether anyone likes Daschle

I'm talking about an anti-Daschle smear campaign which extended to DU.

Total, repeated, Orwellian lies about him, like that he "blocked" the Sept. 11 investigation, which was a garbage charge.

A drumbeat of criticism that relates in no way to what Daschle actually does or says.

And like I said, there was conventional, honest, justified criticism of him, but that's not what I'm talking about.

[Dr Fate]

35. I'm against lying about him too.

Unfortunatley, no one has to lie to correctly characterize him as a "Pink tu-tu Democrat."

I think we SHOULD red-ass Democrats who listen to these loser "strategists" while refusing to listen to their base.

[Cocoa]

36. pink tu-tu is a lie, actually

homophobic namecalling is always a lie, especially when it exactly matches the right-wing tactics against the same target.

Rush Limbaugh conducted a long-term campaign against Daschle, emphasizing his "weakness" and calling him a sissy. He called him "Puff" and featured that pink tu-tu graphic on his website.

The honest criticism of him wasn't a lie, the propaganda techniques WERE a lie, and the upcoming ones against Reid will also be a lie.

[Dr Fate]

43. Even a broken watch is right twice a day.

And Dascheles refusal to tell the truth about Bush and the Republicans/media was not Rush's fault.

Although I'm sure he meant it in a diff. context, if Pig-boy implied Tom was a wimp, I'd have to say he was right in a sense.

I dont think the "Pink tu-tu" imagery as used by Bartcop & DUers implies he's gay, I think it correctly implies his and others fear to take on Bush/media.

Oh well- it all over now- we saw how well the "strategy" of "lets play nice, pretend WMD lies are truth & pretend we can work with Bush/media" worked for him and the others.

[Dr Fate]

27. Telling the truth about Republicans is "too radical"

and it "sounds like Micheal Moore" and it "confuses swing voters."

I agree, he should have told the truth and pointed out the at the war was based on a lie.

[trezic]

42. Credibility

You don't have to like the fact that we're in Iraq. Personally, I don't. The fact remains that we are in Iraq and it is in our best interest to do it right. A couple of simple points:

1. Arguing over the rightness of the war is pointless. The best solution now is to pressure the administration into running it correctly. This administration has a pathological inability to take the right actions unless under extreme duress. We saw the truth of this during the campaign, when they adopted virtually every measure proposed by Kerry and others. Keep up the pressure.

2. An immediate pullout would be disastrous for both Iraq and America. For the Iraqis, we would be abandoning the nonviolent majority to a tyranny of the minority with a taste for blood. It would the same as Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The same would happen to our credibility. In fact, it's not inconceivable that it would the 1970s all over again. The world would see America as weak and vacillating and the resulting power vacuum would demand to be filled.

[eridani]

47. Who gives a flying fuck about 'credibility'?

'Credibility' is a sociopathic weasel word for 'make the rest of the world believe that we really really really are serious about wanting to kick their faces in and take over all strategic raw materials.'

If your house was being robbed, would you insist that they stop, or just request them to do it correctly?

[candy331]

44. Seems to me when Saddam was taken out (since the cry is noWMD's

to be found but Saddam was a horrible dictator and the world better off w/o him defense exclusively now) the millions of dollars could have been given to the people to build their own roads and schools and hospitals etc. Why the occupation, remember on May 1,03 mission accomplished, that was the time to work with Iraqi's to rebuild their own infrastructure. Now it is time to get out, "the fat lady has sung".

[NVMojo]

45. Reid's position on Iraq ...Nov. 28, 2004

snip...

Reid isn’t specifying which issues Senate Democrats plan to highlight next year, noting that the agenda in Washington will be set by Republicans, who control the White House and both houses of Congress.

He said the Bush administration will have to confront several problems it has created, including:

* A huge budget deficit,

* More funding to implement Bush’s No Child Left Behind Act education reform law, and

* The war in Iraq.

U.S. troops will have to remain in Iraq for years, said Reid, who voted for the resolution to give Bush authority to invade Iraq.

“I voted to go into Iraq. The problem is the plan was faulty,” Reid said. “But I think we have to stay there and win.”

more...

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/11/28/86311.php