Okay - Is Bashing John Kerry a full-time job for some people?

[liberalpragmatist]

First off, about his performance today - what did I miss? I thought he did an excellent job and even many DU'ers who dislike Kerry said he did a good job. I saw an intelligent, hard-nosed leader grilling Rice, even bringing up the Sy Hersh article and asking her the same questions over and over again until she actually answered. Admittedly, he may not have been quite like Barbara Boxer (who did a FINE job), but that's not his style and I thought he very, very well. Were we watching the same hearings?

Despite all that, if you dislike Kerry, fine - I can't force you to like him and I'm not going to. You're entitled to your opinion. But for some DU'ers it goes well beyond disliking John Kerry and even goes well beyond just STATING that they dislike Kerry.

It isn't some reasoned discussion about what they dislike about him. It isn't merely expressing an opinion. Instead, it's relentless, counterproductive flame-baiting Kerry-bashing.

It's like it's done just for the attention and just b/c they know it's going to make people mad. It's immature and it's ridiculous. For some people the man can do nothing right. Forget a mere difference of opinion - Kerry could single-handedly save the world and it wouldn't be enough for some people. Is Kerry-bashing their day job? Don't they have better things to do or more interesting things to talk about then at every turn expressing their loathing of the man?

I'll admit, frankly, I'm very hesitant to start this thread b/c I have this nagging feeling that this too will be hijacked by those full-time Kerry-bashers.

NOTE: Added some stuff.

[rockymountaindem]

1. You may have stumbled onto something here...

Oh, and on edit...

A reminder for all Kerry supporters to PM me. Please contact me if you're tired of the bashers too.

Some of you don't need to contact me. You know who you are and you're plenty awesome as it is ;)

[Merlot]

2. Just think what would happen if the Kerry-bashers

took all that energy and focused it on bush, rummy, cheney, et al.

Why aren't they?

[blondeatlast]

83. I think some of us have some dark suspicions

as to the answer to that one.

I know I do...

[NVMojo]

3. yeah, and the repugs are laughing at the dems gnawing on each others bones

instead of building strength to come back out swinging hard at the repugs.... the repugs set the agenda to degrade Kerry and now some of our own are following it ...what a joke.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

72. AFAIC, "building strength" would include

getting rid of deadwood, or at the very least helping them -- and others -- understand how dead they are.

LOL, which reminds me of Kerry's reported interest in 2008: NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

Oh, and Kerry does a fine job of downgrading himself without ANY help from the right by his own actions -- or rather INaction.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

105. Not gonna happen?

Seems you may have to do your level best, and then some, to stop it.
Kerry is as entitled to seek the '08 nomination as anyone else.
It's so sad the reaction to Kerry's Rice rejection is met with this attitude.
So Kerry's dead wood? LOL. He seems quite alive thank you, much to the dismay of some.

[marcologico]

4. Lotta nuts on the internet and a monkey's got 'em in his pocket. n/t

[justy329]

5. I agree. It makes me sick to my stomach.

Recall Kerry's fantastic debate performances?! Recall Kerry's remarkable comeback to be the nominee. Recall Kerry's courageousness in Vietnam and his honesty when he came back?

To go and be as critical of Kerry as some of you are as Bush, it shows why we lost. Our side wasn't even loyal to our nominee.

John Kerry faught a good fight. It was always going to be uphill as we were in a war and we have such a stupid electorate.

I say... thanks JK for reporting for duty!1

[yellowdogintexas]

29. well put

I can't add anything to your statement

[LittleClarkie]

34. Some will respond that they DID support the candidate

but you can't truly support someone you don't support. I hope people have learned that lesson. It's not support when your only reason for voting for Kerry is because he's not Bush. That's was never going to persuade enough folks. Or maybe it did, if you're on the fraud squad.

I do hate to see the revisionists try and take the debate victories away, saying anyone could have won against the smirking chimp. Well, Gore won, but as someone said this time after the first debate, we didn't all sit up all night talking about how Gore won.

Speaking of which, anyone else STILL having sleep issues. I swear, this campaign turned me into a third-shifter. Quite annoying.

Yes, I too thank Kerry for reporting for duty. And I get really, really depressed when I see all the bashing. Mostly, I think, because it makes me feel like what I want is nearly a hopeless case.

I've already had a Kerry presidency stolen from me once. I still want what was taken from me. Is that so wrong? Why does it have to be "He's had his chance. Let someone else try." No. Why can't I have what I fought for months to get? Why not 2008? Why the hell not?

That's why I rail so hard against the Kerry bashers. Not those who have legitimate criticisms. The bashers. The weeny whiners. The drive-by hope-killers. Get your mitts off of my hope.

You'll have to give me a damned good reason not to continue to go for what I feel has been taken away. A good man in 04 will still be a good man in 08.

I can't believe, considering how I feel now, that I was still ABB as late as June or 2004.

[RevolutionaryActs]

7. Well said.

Some people really, really dislike him and it seems like the things people say, sometimes, rival the nasty things said about Bush, its kind of scary.

[RoyGBiv]

8. I think so ...

It's much easier to find a scapegoat than to throw off the victim label and actually work for something better.

[justy329]

40. good point n/t

[AuntiBush]

9. Kerry, Boxer, Dodd - DID GREAT!

They did great! No kidding. One can really get a feel for what our Senators going through and what they'll have to face in the next 4 years. If we think we're sick about it, imagine what they're going through.

I emailed and called the offices of Kerry, Dodd, Boxer and my own Senator Sarbanes, thanking each of them! The fight is just beginning.

Hey, we're going to need the distraction w/Bushite already talking about Nukes and Iran! The Sleazy is talking about it right now (re-run 2 on C-Span right now).

[Der Blaue Engel]

10. "Is Kerry-bashing their day job?"

I'm beginning to think that for some, it may be. Armstrong fund maybe?

:shrug:

[blondeatlast]

85. Or internships with the Heritage Foundation?

I'm just sayin'...

[emulatorloo]

11. Where do I sign up and how big are the checks?

EOM

[Generator]

20. Paging Armstrong Williams

Sure you made me laugh, but at what cost?!

[emulatorloo]

23. That will be $240,000, please. . .

Have Karl or Condi cut me a check.

[mike_c]

12. the hours are long, and the pay is low...

...but it's a labor of love. :evilgrin: :smoke:

[Guns Aximbo]

13. He let us down

We put a lot of faith in him. I feel he made a lot of mistakes and let us down. Thats all.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

14. how?

care to qualify that?

[Mabus]

19. I would but I'm still crying in my teacup

over that remark he made about us crying in our teacups after the 2000 election.

Then there's that politically expedient vote for the Iraqi resolution. Then there was that silence during the SBVT but it was hard to hold a news conference while your running for president and taking a vacation at the same time.

[Guns Aximbo]

22. I'm not good at debating

but I'll give it a shot. Remember, these are MY feelings. I voted for him and supported him an many ways including financially.

And BY THE WAY - I hate to rehash this stuff.

He was unresponsive when the Swift boat ads came out. He never took a strong enough stance on the war. He is JUST NOW calling for RUMMYS removal. There are a lot of things that bothered me throughout the campaign, things I thought were important that he took little action on.

I do think he's somewhat weak and to PC on.

Sorry but thats the way I feel.

[liberalpragmatist]

24. Actually, he called for Rumsfeld to resign in May

nt

[zann725]

108. Yeah well...how 'bout calling for Bush to resign?! THAT would impress me.

n/t

[ginnyinWI]

114. no actually...

It was September 2003 when he first called for Rummy to resign. ;)

[Eloriel]

73. Yeah, what IS that about Rumsfeld?

I feel like John Kerry must be living his life in slow motion while the rest of us are not -- that call for Rumsfeld's resignation should've happened a very long time ago.

And as for liberalpragmatist's comment that he called for it in MAY -- well, perhaps he did, but that makes me LOL. Wasn't a very loud or persistent call, was it? So not only is he living his life in slomo, he's also living it quietly, so no one will notice.

Bah.

[NoPasaran]

79. I remember him having an on-line petition back then

I even signed it. It will probably have as much effect as the one I signed last night.

[ginnyinWI]

115. see my post 114 n/t

[blondeatlast]

86. Self-deleted. Move along... nt

[liberalpragmatist]

17. What did you find wrong with the hearings today though?

I really don't know what some people are talking about when they say he sucked. Maybe there were minor issues here and there - nothing's perfect. But on the whole I thought he was excellent.

Anyway, I'm not going to crucify you - you're entitled to your opinion. BUt I still don't think it would justify you if you were to then launch a thread that was nothing but provocation and flame-baiting.

[Guns Aximbo]

67. WMD

durring the softball game between Kerry & Rice, Rice stated that we invaded Iraq to overthrow Saddam. KERRY REITERATED THAT EXACT MESSAGE! We went into Iraq to remove Saddam.... BULL SHIRT! Thats not why we went in there.

Why didb't he call her on the carpet for that one? He actually went a step further and VALIDATED THEIR PROPAGANDA. He sucks.

[Eloriel]

74. Our side does a lot of that, but it's particularly disheartening to hear

our Presidential Nominee doing it, isn't it?

He also promised to vote for her, something I find abhorrent on the face of it. I'm watching Biden do it right now. :puke:

[Acryliccalico]

98. Kerry is voting with Boxer............NO!!!

[zann725]

107. This is NOT being negative. But he looked and acted tired...

probably jet-lag from his trip. And argument-wise, he simply wasn't his best debating self, but was far too agreeable.

I voted for him, volunteered for him, and have defended him endlessly in the past, but one only had to compare the look (reaction) on Condi's face as he questioned her, to that of Condi's response to the Boxer "assault"...and you have the answer. She clearly felt "chummy" with Kerry...and even after the Hearing, the two stopped to politely chat. Made me squirm more than a little.

After seeing Babs in 'action' lately, I prefer THAT in a Dem representative/ candidate...thank you very much. And that is NOT being disloyal to Kerry, but "true" to furthering the Dem cause and party.

[liberalpragmatist]

111. Point taken - I disagree

But what you just said is exactly what I'm asking for - I don't mind disagreements. I dislike gratuitous bashing that is meant purely to provoke.

Unfortunately it seems (just as I suspected) there are SOME posters even on this thread who don't even bother to try to understand me.

[OrwellwasRight]

32. Haven't you heard, Guns, "he's working behind the scenes." Have faith!

At least we don't have to hear that fantasy-land nonsense anymore.

[LittleClarkie]

50. I never did believe that

But then I was never into translating he words as if he was Lassie and our vote was stuck down a well, either.

He did exactly what he said he was going to do. No more, no less. If there was a plan behind the scenes, it died for lack of hardcore evidence.

Faith, nah. But I still support the old bastard, just the same.

[OrwellwasRight]

54. I agree, he never said he was doing anything "behind the scenes."

And my comment wasn't directed at you in any way.

It just got real weird here for a while like I couldn't say anything about how I felt betrayed by Kerry's pre-11/2 promise to make sure every vote counted without somebody saying "just you wait, he's working for you, it's going to be ok, you'll see."

It felt like some weird cult, and I started to wonder if this was the same group I used to have stimulating political debates with and who made me think that Kerry had a realistic chance of winnng in November or if it had been just a bunch of purple-sky people all along with no grip on reality.

Stupid typos!

[LittleClarkie]

57. I've sometimes joked that I was a "Kerry Krishna"

and I felt bad when I saw people say that they felt betrayed, because I still don't think Kerry's like that. But I wasn't completely sure he was buying into the fraud thing. I'm not sure he's the conspiracy theorist kind of guy he used to be when he was working on Iran/Contra. I think he's fully on the suppression train now. I'm still not sure he's on the fraud squad.

I don't think his intention was to betray anyone. But that's just me. I guess I can't blame folk for the way they feel. I just wish, unrelated to any event, they didn't have to start threads to tell us what we full well know is their position. As soon as I see certain names here, and that sort of thread, I think, "No kiddin' _________, I never would have guessed, except that you posted the same thread two days ago." So sometimes the other side seems like its own sort of cult, esp. when the off the wall Skull and Bones theories start up.

I guess we have our share of wingnuts to match the wingnuts on the other side. But I do appreciate the more reasoned criticisms as opposed to the drive-by sarcastic little comments.

I don't know why I expect a high level of maturity on an internet message board. When you think about it, the internets just aren't like that normally, you know? Must be the anonymity.

Sorry for the ramble. Me caffeine must be wearing off.

[Eloriel]

75. It is a FACT that we were ALL betrayed

by Kerry and it matters not whether Kerry "intentionally" betrayed us or not. This is an important point for you and others to understand.

In fact, frankly, it angers me more knowing that you're probably right, that he didn't intend to betray his position of power and influence for doing what was right because it just drives home how fucking clueless he and too many other Dems really are, which points up how little they listen to us, which in turn points to how powerless we really are to get their fucking attention -- at ALL, about anything.

It's very depressing.

[Guns Aximbo]

81. absolutely

powerless. No representation at all any longer. Also, were afraid of the word revolt because this site is monitored and we're afraid of being arrested or fired from our jobs now.

What has happened to America?

[LittleClarkie]

95. Looking up betrayal in the dictionary, it really seems to imply intent

There is no unintentional betrayal, except in the case of revealing ones position, as in "to betray one's position."

So I would dispute that it is a F A C T that Kerry betrayed us, especially if it was unintentional.

I would further dispute that it is a F A C T that Kerry betrayed us because to beable to declare it an indisputeable fact, we'd first have to have all the facts. We do not. We down here in the lower strata do not have all the facts, so I don't know how we can declare anything for certain.

And as I type this, Kerry just voted NO to Condi. Just had to report that late breaking bit. I almost cried. I did cheer, him and Boxer both!! Symbolic, but still.

[MontecitoDem]

15. It's left over energy from the primaries

People got so into bashing each other's candidates here during the primaries; seems like they just can't stop themselves!

[blm]

16. It's the ones who bash with the RNC talking points in the intent to sway

others to join the bash. Or when they pretend to be lefty purists and mischaracterize Kerry's record to make themselves sound more believable.

[Lizzie Borden]

18. I'm sick of the bashing too.

Like someone else said, if he told you he had a cure for cancer, he'd get bashed for that too. It's pretty easy to just sit back and throw insults. It's much more difficult to do something constructive.

[raysr]

21. Well, the fact

that he walked out on us may have something to do with the bashing.

[Telly Savalas]

63. Too little, too late.

If he has the cure for cancer, he should have given it to us a lot earlier. Furthermore, his little cure for cancer won't help the millions of children around the world who are starving. Everything is John Kerry's fault.

[marcologico]

25. They're probably on payola patrol like the rest of the internet . n/t

[MoonRiver]

26. Don't worry. We'll probably go completely away soon.

I post far less than previously. There is an intolerance here for anything that violates the DLC code of loyalty. So, you folks just continue with your go along to get along philosophy about how to handle Pukes. Me, I'll choose fighters like Cobb, that is unless and until Dems start nominating candidats with spines.

[MontecitoDem]

28. WHAT?

DU is the DLC? Wow! That's a new one.

[blondeatlast]

88. And an eeeeeeeeeeeenoooooooooooooooormous stretch.

Ah, well, I survived the primaries, I can take this.

If it's worth it.

[liberalpragmatist]

38. Did you read what I said?

It's one thing to criticize. Nowhere did I say that you must bow down and accept what a great guy Kerry is. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. But there's an adult way to go about it and a childish way to go about it. And if somebody decides to use every opportunity to bash the guy in a way that's obviously meant to provoke and arouse ire, I'll call them for it, because it's stupid and immature.

I'm not criticizing somebody who posts something like this (which I happen to disagree with but is an example of a reasoned, adult discussion):

"I'm not a huge fan of Kerry. I voted for him and gave his campaign money, and I have respect for his anti-Vietnam activities and for his debate performances, but in general I was let down by the way he ran his campaign. He didn't settle on a coherent critique of Bush until it was too late, avoided Iraq until it was too late, let his campaign managers run wild and didn't counter the SBVT, and then conceded without speaking out about irregularities in the vote count. Even if the outcome wouldn't have changed, he could have made the concession dependent on an investigation into irregularities. And for too long he did was politically "safe" instead of being bold. His campaign epitomised the problems the Democratic Party has." (Me playing devil's advocate)

What I'm criticizing is something like this:

"F*CK KERRY!!!! He's just another DLC-whore, Bush-lite sellout who abandoned me to Nazism! He is complicit in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and is one of the most vile men to ever be in politics and I hope he slinkers off and never says another word in public! He is a disgrace!!!!!"

I see much of the latter and distressingly few of the former.

[OrwellwasRight]

52. Is that second post real

or is that you playing devil's advocate too?

Edited for typo & clarity.

[liberalpragmatist]

55. Devil's advocate - both times

nt

[Blue_In_AK]

27. Please make it stop...

I'm so sick of this Kerry bashing. Nothing he does is good enough for some people. He's only one man, he can only do so much. He had the election stolen from him, as I'm sure he knows, but instead of wallowing around in his misery crying about how he got robbed, he goes to Iraq, meets with the troops, meets with Middle Eastern and European leaders, comes back to the senate on the offensive with election reform, kicking out Rumsfeld, taking on Condi, all with good grace and intellect. Give the guy a break, for Christ's sake. I'm just sick of it. The way some people on this board go on, you'd think he was the Great Satan or something. Jeez............

[AntiCoup2K4]

30. Title of the original post is pretty funny when you consider the fact that

....several DLC interns are on this board for the single and solitary purpose of bashing another well known northeastern Democrat. One whom their puppet masters fear like mice (and John Asscrotch) fear cats.

[liberalpragmatist]

39. Well, you won't get a disagreement from me

Find a post where I bash Dean. Try. It's hard to find one, b/c I like Dean.

But again, like with Kerry, having a difference of opinion over Dean is one thing. Bashing him relentlessly at every turn is another.

Oh, but AntiCoup - "puppet master"? That's a little harsh. I'm not accusing even Kerry-bashers of being puppets of Dean.

[AntiCoup2K4]

43. You seem to be taking something personally which wasn't meant for you

Unless you happen to be one of Mr From's gofers, which I never implied. I can't recall ever having a problem with your posts, I just thought the thread title was ironic, given the prevalence of a certain group since Dean announced his DNC chair candidacy. Sorry for any confusion.

[liberalpragmatist]

47. No, it's alright

I'm not accusing you of accusing me. I understood you were simply making a general point. Still, I thought I'd just affirm that I'm not a Dean-basher either.

[justy329]

41. Do you have proof of that or are you just passing on some

conspiracy theories?

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. Stick around DU for a while, you'll begin to recognize patterns

...and these guys are using the same script they used a year ago.

[blondeatlast]

92. Yeah, for those of us who remember the parting of the GeeDee forums,

it's pretty easy to see.

I'd like to see them be like Kos and own right up to it.

What's worse is that it decimates any possibility of intelligent criticism of any of the ex-candidates.

It's a real pity. I'm not a Dean fan, and hardly a tin-foil hatter, but I think this is a a possibility.

[justy329]

122. What do you mean by parting of GeeDee forums? n/t

[ginnyinWI]

117. interesting...

do you know this for sure?

[WarNoMore]

31. No flame from me.

It is really tiresome, kinda like during the primaries. I don't see how anyone could have anticipated the magnitude of the election theft, so how could Kerry's team have outmanouvered the Bushitas?

I've been probably voting for Kerry for as long as he's been running for office; I've never been ashamed to call him my Senator, so why should I be down on him because he didn't do everything perfectly or the way we might wish.

On top of that, as human being to human being, what was done to Kerry (and Gore) was just so shameful. And all this happened to Kerry in a *personal* way, he *personally * suffered defeat. And while he was recovering from cancer treatmment. I thought we were the compassionate party.

[Dr Fate]

46. The DNC used possible election fraud as a fund-raising talking point.

So someone was anticipating it- or at least playing on the fears of the base (who were anticipating it) instead of actully LISTENING to us.

So, I disagree- that is an excuse, and we need to stop making excuses.

[WarNoMore]

53. I'm sorry I didn't get back to your post.

Yes, I wonder what all his lawyers were doing, etc. But I still don't think he deserves the vitriol. (And I was Kucinich supporter up through the primaries.)

[Dr Fate]

58. The vitriol is natural.

A LOT of us in the base have been telling the leadership what to do for years- we are tired of always being right yet always ignored & shunned in favor of "swing voters" and "what the media will say about us."

[moggie12]

33. Time to move on

I had some issues about Kerry's campaign (mainly blamed Shrum), I stated them here on DU, felt better, then started thinking about how Dems can take back Congress in '06 and Presidency in '08. Today I posted messages asking everyone to e-mail CNN and MSNBC expressing support for Boxer. I got about 30 replies. About eighteen or so people said "great, done" and thanked me for the links. Several wrote back and said the MSM is owned by the war-mongers and they won't waste their time. Meanwhile, the "bashing-posts" were drawing 50+ replies each. I laughed at my stupidity, closed my DU screen, and spent an hour e-mailing CNN, MSNBC, all the Democrats on the FA Committee, and several non-Neanderathal Republicans.

Wallowing in pity and defeatism is not good for the soul.

[MontecitoDem]

35. Great job Moggie12!

You rock
:party:

[Eloriel]

76. Wallowing in pity and defeatism

is different from speaking the truth when the occasion to do so arises.

[itzamirakul]

96. Can you give me a link for

email addys for the Democrat Congress people, please? I had a good one and now I cannot find it. I need to email Sen. Clinton and Sen. Schumer asap.

Thanks...

[moggie12]

103. This is the one I used - not sure if it's the easiest

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

I'm in NY, too -- just sent both HC and Chuck some e-mail!

[Clarkie1]

36. No bashing here, but I'll never vote for him; we need a winner for 08'

And Kerry didn't win.

[flpoljunkie]

66. With our voting systems, it is quite possible that Kerry did win in '04!

Am waiting, with very little hope, for a news consortium to decide to count all the votes in Ohio--or even to tell us why the exit polls were wrong!

[ailsagirl]

113. As long as those *&^%$ voting machines are in place

we'll never have another Dem in the White House.

[MADem]

37. I thought he was a fine candidate

...and absent cheap campaign tricks, outright lies, brutal voter suppression and questionable balloting, he might have been the guy taking the oath on the 20th.

I find the bashing counterproductive. It's way easier to gripe about what someone did wrong than put your energy towards articulating policies for the party, slapping down rightwing misconceptions, and working, locally, regionally, or nationally, for change.

I won't play that whinging, whining, complaining, hateful, second guessing game--it's got too many GOP overtones for me. I'll continue to support the party, and pipe up to my senators and rep when I see something I don't like...I'll also praise any national leader who takes a brave or principled stand. In '08, I'll look at the field, make my pick, work for that candidate, and if Bozo the fucking Clown gets the nom, I will work my ass off for Bozo.

But that's just me. Whatever others want to do, that's their business. Hate can eat you alive....it's consuming the GOP right now (wish it would chew faster!!!).

[moggie12]

42. Should non-bashers go to new Dem Party forum?

I really like this "General Discussion-Politics" category and not many people seem to go to that new Democratic Party forum they just set up, but maybe this is the answer? I like the great political debates people sometimes get into in this category, but the whining is getting to me.

[OrwellwasRight]

51. Na, bashers, non-bashers, we can all stay here.

Skinner will give us a lecture if he thinks there's too much animosity flying around (which there probably isn't right now). I don't know if you were a lurker right around the election, but it got pretty ugly. There was yelling you could hear even without the use of all caps, if you know what I mean (the main board was even called something like Bitterness and Acrimony for a while).

Skinner put a lot of effort into a couple of posts to try to bring everyone together to concentrate on productive ideas instead of the anger and people eventually cooled.

Anyway, there are just going to be some long lasting resentments. Lots are left over from the primaries (as the Dean folks felt pretty attacked, then). And I, for one, spent about every single ounce of energy I had working for a Dem victory in Novemebr and then Kerry conceded before all the votes were even counted. I just felt let down. People say we turned on him, but how will we ever get our democracy back from Diebold if we don't do the basics like say "every vote counts and I won't be bullied or shamed or embarrassed into conceding until every vote is counted." It is the little things, ya know?

Anyway, keep up the positive work.

I'm writng the DNC right now, too. :-)

[blondeatlast]

93. I spend more and more time there, but it appears both sides of the bashing

coin have infiltrated it.

[Dr Fate]

45. No, only part time for me. I praise him when he does good...

...and I "bash" him when he fails to respond to his hardworking base.

So sorry, but Dr. Fate is no longer a member of the "excuse wing" of the DEM party. I've offically turned in my pom-poms on Jan. 6. I'm in the ACTION wing.

When Kerry ACTS, he gets praise. When he makes excuses, he gets "bashed."

Call it tough love.

[RUMPLEMINTZ]

48. I didn't like

Kerrys whole speech today, he could have asked so many hard hitting questions like Boxer did. Instead of giving speeches they should have made her answer question after question!

[Dr Fate]

49. He said nothing that networks will show later.

So ,in other words, no one except DUers & old folks will even know what he said.

Now, if he had dropped the "L Bomb", every network would be discussing "Is Condi a Liar?" and every Repub would be shitting in their pants, making excuses (and unwittingly repeating the notion of whether she is a liar) for at least a week.

So much for those precious "swing voters" we are supposed to be so concerned about.

[Sleepless In NY]

56. Dr Fate..... your posts express it best

all of them! You are saying what needs to be said. All I hear is how we need a new direction in our party, but when anyone expresses any type of constructive criticism, it's called "bashing". If we aren't happy with what our leadership is doing, how is it going to ever change, if we don't express our disatisfaction? Maybe if we let them know that after working our hearts out for them, it's time they start listening to what we have to say , too. And that they shouldn't take it for granted, that if they don't put a up fight, we will back them anyway. Might get them moving.

You're right, the one who stood out today was Boxer, not Kerry. That's not "bashing", it's fact.

Anyway you have expressed it far more eloquently then I ever could & I thank you for that.

[OrwellwasRight]

118. I think you expressed it quite elonquently as well. nt.

[CWebster]

59. Un-American

That is what this campaign to silence outrage or discuss the past election - without fawning all over Kerry, reminds me of.

The old you are un-American if you disagree with me or if you are not with us, you are against us.

Why is Lieberman for example, fair game, and Kerry not? Like Lieberman, I don't like Kerry's positions, his approach, or his militarism for starters, so why should I have to gag myself so others can goose-step behind anything with a D attached to it? I didn't like Kerry but I voted ABB- not quite an endorsement of Kerry. Kerry's inability - and apparent unwillingness, to define himself in contrast to Bush did not rally the Country and I still question his perspective on the execution of the Invasion as the issue, instead of the fundamental morality and criminal aspect of it. What good is he?

[Q]

60. On the other hand...for some people Kerry can do no wrong...

...and that's just as bad when it comes to making OUR representatives accountable to the people.

Kerry is what they used to call a Public Servant. His job is to serve the people and not himself or the Bush White House. Some seem to have forgotten this.

My complaint against Kerry is that he and too many other Democrats seem to be playing Politics as Usual as our nation is raped, pillaged and plundered by an executive branch and pisses on the Constitution and the people any chance they get.

It's Kerry's duty to be part of the loyal opposition...not to simply 'sound tough' and then turn around and vote for legislation and approve of policies that hurt America.

Get used to the criticism. Especially if Kerry thinks all will be forgotten and tries to run again.

The Democratic party needs to WAKE THE HELL UP and listen to those complaining about Kerry and his lack of leadership in the face of a takeover of our government by fascists.

[blacksnday]

61. Sticking To His Guns

I was watching as Kerry was questioning Rice, and I was very pleased. His questions and statements mirror what he was saying during his presidential campaign, that the Bush Administration then was crying 'Not True' but which have now been brought to light.

Bush's second term is starting similar to his first term.

His approval ratings are the lowest for second term presidents, just as his first term ratings were low.
He is stepping into Office amid Iraq Controversy, just as his first term was began with Election Controversy.

His Inaugural ball is amid the most security then any other president, maybe because he remembers his first term had his driving brigade bulleted by objects from unhappy people.

The U.S. dollar has continued to struggle, and the world is very concerned over the U.S. debt, just as his first term, the dollar starting falling in value from his 1st day.

Just as John Kerry said... If Bush is re-elected be prepared for 4 more years of the same.... with the same being downhill.

Inner-Scape... From my point of view

[sendero]

62. I will "like" Kerry again...

... if he actually casts a no vote for the confirmation. If he doesn't, all his "tough words" are absolutely meaningless, a sideshow to appease his base.

And appeasement is not cutting it any more.

[bunkerbuster1]

64. Probably a full-time DU gig, for some.

I don't doubt that there are some reThug moles who post smack about Kerry in here.

Problem is, many are 100% sincere. I've no idea what the ratio of the sincere progressives to Freeper shitstains might be.

This much I know--if I waste more than a minute or so worrying about it, the Freeper shitstains have won.

[Dawgs]

65. For some reason, many think we need to find the...

perfect canidate. One that thinks exactly like they do. I don't think that's very realistic, and everyone here should know this.

We would be hearing the same things if Dean were the canidate. Oh wait! He couldn't even beat Kerry in the primaries. I'm not bashing Dean. I actually love the guy. He kicks ass for us and is on our side. Just like Kerry.

My point is that no one canidate is perfect. We still hear many complain that Clinton wasn't good enough.

It's really getting ridiculous.

[CWebster]

68. Is that so?

While our soldiers kill and die for a lie without end in sight, Kerry advocates our soldiers need to be better equipted to kill and die for the lie.


Good enough for you?

[Dawgs]

69. What? Did Kerry say that?

"Kerry advocates our soldiers need to be better equipted to kill and die for the lie"

Do you hate Kerry that much that you took his comments as promoting death. That's the way Republicans think and I really have no use for it.

Go ahead and find some third party canidate to vote for and you will be the one promoting the death and destruction.

Do you think our soldiers shouldn't be better equiped?

[CWebster]

70. He doesn't have to say it

What other conclusions can be drawn?

"Do you think our soldiers shouldn't be better equiped?"


Now, think. Equipted for what?

[cestpaspossible]

106. Are you advocating against equiping the troops? WTF?

[Eloriel]

77. On the contrary

re Dean:

...if Dean were the canidate. Oh wait! He couldn't even beat Kerry in the primaries.

The truth of the matter is, Kerry couldn't even win the primaries without dirty tricks and backroom deals. YOU don't KNOW who would've won a fair primary fight and neither do I. So quit bashing Dean on the basis of his "loss" -- which was mostly being the victim of dirty tricks at the hands of some of his own party's members.

[buddhamama]

71. for some,

trashing Kerry is as essential to their existence as breathing. I too, thought he did an excellent job today.

[robbedvoter]

78. I know it's a full time job to keep Kerry relevant, but threads like

this won't help. Contrary to what your little fan club thinks, there are more important issues/people in the world - plus some of us have a life of our own.

[NGU]

80. I think that some people just want to

direct their anger/frustration at someone. They are looking for an outlet and end up turning on their own.

[cindyw]

82. It's all about the DNC chair race. Some think trashing Kerry makes

Dean look like a better choice for leader. Honestly all this bashing is only doing now what it did for me in the primary. It turns me off to Dean. When will they ever learn?

[WI_DEM]

84. where do you get that?

Also, where do you get that the only people who bash Kerry are Dean supporters? I haven't found that to be the case. It sounds like your trying to make this like the primaries.

[cindyw]

89. Oh please, Ive been here long enough to recognize the names.

Obviously not all trashers are Dean supporters, but for the most part all of this is just like the primaries. I remember it very clearly. And as for me being the one who is making this about the primaries, I would remind you that I have made no comment on my opinion of either man. While it is true that the behavior of some Dean supporters turns me off to Dean, I have made no comment about my final opinion on Dean. Those stupid commercials for the Ipod turn me off to the product, but it changed not the fact that I own one and adore the thing.

[marcologico]

123. 100% correctemundo. All part of the strategy that worked so well in Iowa.

n/t

[robbedvoter]

87. Riiight. Rice hearings, DNC chair, tsunami, SpongeBob - ALL ABOUT KERRY.

Obsess much?

[cindyw]

90. For those who go on and on about Kerry, as was the point of the original

post, yes, it is all about Kerry these days. Try reading the point of the original post before you call me the obsessor. Those who spend all their time trashing Kerry these days are the ones obsessed.

[Lerkfish]

91. I regretted starting one thread out of frustration..

after the boxer objection to ohio...and getting a Kerry letter telling me to call a bunch of people but that he was out of the picture...at least that's how it appeared to me when I read it.
I had no other agenda than being very frustrated. I wasn't trying to divide DU or flamebait or whatever. However, the thread devolved into that, and I apologized to skinner.

I think some people might be flamebaiting, but I also think a great many of us are disappointed and frustrated with events after the election and Kerry's apparent noninvolvement in the solutions. (I think he's stepped up more recently, however).

I think what would be worse is to make it impossible to discuss being frustrated or disappointed with any dem candidate....as opposed to suffering some people flamebaiting on the issue.

IMHO.

[itzamirakul]

94. I will never again waste my precious vote for...

John Kerry. He had his chance and he failed miserably in my eyes. He does not have what it takes for the challenge or for the job, as far as I am concerned.

Hillary is another wasted vote. She should not even consider running IMO. She is a seat-warmer..that's all. She is my senator and she and Schumer are both shameful and disgusting in my eyes.

[Guns Aximbo]

97. and she'd

go down in FLAMES along with Kerry.

[blondeatlast]

99. Even after today's vote, I suspect we'll still see some of it.

In fact, I ALREADY have, 7 minutes after his vote was reported on DU.

[Acryliccalico]

100. Every person is entitled to their

own opinion. I voted for Kerry and still have his bumper sticker on my truck.

I ignore those who want to bash someone because I truly believe that everyone IS entitled to their own opinion. I don't have to defend myself since I think we still have the freedom to have differing opinions in this country.

I will not engage in chewing off my own foot by arguing my point since, if I have to argue with someone then they have already made up their mind and arguing is just a waist of time. WHY BOTHER!

I back Kerry and am proud he voted against Condi. Also it is harder for the freepers to get any points by trying to argue or change my mind.:kick:

[rniel]

101. Noone gets a free pass from criticism

That's is how I see it. We're not like the republicans who have to keep tight lipped.

[Larkspur]

102. Bashing Kerry is not my full-time job

My full-time job pays me well and I use some of it to support Howard Dean and DFA.

I also write LTTE's against Bush, for Dean, and for or against issues that come up in my local paper.

[Uzybone]

104. Well some of the strongest Kerry bashers

turned out to be RW trolls. Im sure many of them are still on this site.

[loudsue]

110. BINGO!

The other day, I tried to stand up for Kerry on a Kerry-bashing hate-fest thread, and some idgit all but called me a freeper for using the term "bashing". :wtf: This poster had the audacity to say that "bashing" is a term the bad guys use.

I lean so far to the left I can barely stand upright, but I'm accused of being on the side of the bad guys because I see that Kerry is doing the best he knows how, at the moment. The guy is in a nearly IMPOSSIBLE position, having been declared the "LOSER" in the recent election....which in my left-leaning way, I say he WON by a substantial majority, except that the mafia running our government has stolen our Democracy, among other things.

I admit there are HUGE problems in the Democratic party, but I just don't think Kerry is one of those problems. Feinstein, yes. LIEberman, yes. The DLC and NDN DINOs, yes. Kerry, no.

There seem to be a lot of long-time left-leaning posters on DU who have not been around much of late. After I got flamed the other day for standing up for Kerry, I was tempted to be one of those who quit visiting DU.

However, because I do realize, from experience, that many of the flame throwers are here from the dark side, craftily and passionately pushing their divisiveness and propaganda, I decided to stick around and keep fighting the good fight.

The Democratic Party has, without a doubt, been infiltrated and brainwashed, as a group. But there is still a good skeleton crew that is worth keeping and building on....and in my opinion, Kerry is one of them.

His "no" vote on Condi's approval was one of those reasons that Kerry is worth his salt. I think if we have a little patience with him, while he walks this political tight rope, we'll ultimately see that he still has our values at heart, for the most part.

:kick::kick::kick:

[marcologico]

116. good post

:toast:

[sftwrngnr]

109. I think Kerry did an excellent job!

While I didn't have the opportunity to watch the full hearing, I was quite pleased with what I saw in the limited viewing time that I was able to watch. I don't believe there was anything wrong with John Kerry the candidate per se. I believe the root cause of the loss in this election, is that the republicans opted to execute their ongoing playbook of obfuscation and attack, pandering to the so-called religious right, and talking to those in the press who were friendly to their message . I don't believe that John Kerry acted quickly enough to understand and address the significant damage that was being done by the proxy groups and individuals for the republican party and its message.
Going forward, I am fundamentally positive about what is going to happen in '08, for a number of reasons:
1.) Given the results of THIS election, the democratic base will be energized, and more importantly, will have 4 years to organize and prepare for the actual "in the trench" fighting that will need to be done.
2.) With the likes of Newt Gingrich (sp) as potential candidates for the opposition... I like those odds, irrespective of who wins the Democratic party nomination.
3.) I firmly believe that there was NOT an issue with the democratic party, or its message. I believe the issue was with the ongoing negative light that the message was put in on a daily basis. This is something that will need to be addressed, perhaps via a media management organization that has volunteers listening to the various and sundry talk shows, so that potential issues can be identified and addressed.

[liberalpragmatist]

112. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[hyphenate]

119. I'm with you

I've said it several times. I can't say that those who bash Kerry relentlessly are doing themselves or anyone else any good by doing it. Our enemy is the right, not John Kerry. Even more than anything else, there is the obvious truth, regardless of how much we want to say it isn't so: there is no steady backbone behind the Democratic party in our country. John Kerry has, even since 2000 (and long before in many cases) questioned the policies of this evil administration, and spoken up on many instances.

ALL our politicians, regardless of party, have in some way been bought or sold out. It's not a matter of who hasn't--it's a matter of degrees only. Who is the worst sellout? Probably Zell Miller. Who is the least sellout? Probably someone like Paul Wellstone. But if we dwell on this aspect of the political world, nothing would ever get done.

If we can't stand behind those we want to help lead our country, we need to go beyond those points and look at the overall personalities and records of those in "high places." We don't have saints or statesmen in our government anymore--I think we never had them--ever. But there needs to be someone "in charge" and we have a limited gene pool to choose from.

I've started to write down the names of those who have pissed me off on their diatribes on Kerry, and I've put them on my ignore list fairly often. However, on some, I've checked back a short while later, and have not been unduly surprised to see many of them are now on the disruptors' list.

I don't care about people's individual choices or preferences. I feel the same way about my own point of view. The point is, if we all want to continue fighting, continue having a belligerent attitude about the people in our own party that we don't care about, we're going to keep getting the same assholes like GWB elected. The pukes don't give a shit that the Democratic party is filled with far more splinter groups than their party--they continue to use that fact against us, showing a far more unified side than we will ever have. It's because we ARE all different, that we are all filled with different and varying interests and topical issues that we are all to the left in politics, but it's that very diversity which threatens to destroy us. If we can't finally and completely agree on ONE THING, we're never going to get anything changed, least of all who we're going to support.


Edited to correct typos.

[chi_girl_88]

120. I agree

I find it amazing that the only place online where I can find more Democrat bashing than here, is on the FReep site. Whenever I lurk there, I can laugh at how they do it (lame), but at least I can understand why they do it.

I haven't figured out why people do it over here. How can we ever expect to win anything if we can't stop fighting among ourselves?

[LittleClarkie]

121. Every once in a while, one will surprise me with a

Go Kerry when he deserves it.

I don't mind that some need to express their opinions and feelings.

It's the ones who are ridiculing, almost gleefully ridiculing, that make me feel terribly sad.