Email from a Rebulican friend. Can anyone help me respond to this guy?

[bush_is_wacko]

Ok a little background information. This guy sent me an email of something Andy Rooney "supposedly" said. Thanks to our great debunkers here. It was bebunked in a matter of seconds and I sent that to him but he apparently did no get it. He says in his email "the silence is deafening" since I sent an email back to him saying I believe people have the right to feel and say whatever they want to but they do not have a right to impose those beleifs on me. He wants me to answer him back, but I don't want to keep this open for discussion. I will not fall into this trap without good advice and lots of links. I already have the Andy Rooney debunking link. Can anyone help me out here? I know I need a link to Conyers 102 page report. I'll attempt to look for that while waiting for some replies.

Here's the portion of the email that I want to be able to completly debunk.


<<snip>>
"The founders of this country came here vowing to keep the government OUT OF OUR RELIGIONS - NOT to keep religion out of the government.

The silence is deafening (since my last e-mail)... Republicans actually have minds of their own and do not have to be spoon-fed what their opinions should be. Republicans don't think that all liberals are atheists and conspiracy theorists - but I'd be willing to bet that MOST atheists and conspiracy theorists are definitely liberals. But that's just my opinion - not something I was spoon-fed into believing by local and national news media hype - as are a lot of liberal's opinions.
I can read the constitution - and most people (republicans and democrats) have read the constitution (whether in part or completely) - especially about things such as this country being founded on religious freedom. The founders of this country came here vowing to keep the government OUT OF OUR RELIGIONS - NOT to keep religion out of the government. The dems are always hell-bent on saying we can't mix religion and government - but show me ONE Democrat that doesn't go to church in front of the cameras every week when campaigning and who doesn't meet with religious leaders to try to get their votes. Believe it or not - different people actually interpret the constitution in different ways depending on their personal beliefs and opinions.

You appear to be stuck on this one-track mind set where you seem to take everything I send you as being democratic or republican - I SEND YOU JOKES - A PEOPLE'S COMMON SENSE OPINIONS - THINGS THAT FOR THE MOST PART HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH LIBERAL NUTS OR RIGHT WING CONSERVATISM. I don't create these e-mails - I just pass them along. And most of the time your replies don't even have anything to do with what was sent to you. I find it interesting that someone has to work so hard at pushing a slanted personal opinion down someone's throat. I'm glad you have your personal opinions and beliefs - let's hope those nasty republicans don't try to rewrite the constitution and try to take them away!

P.S. Like it or not - Kerry and his "unknown plan" will not be the one being inaugurated on Thursday - and for that - the MAJORITY of America is glad."

<<end snip>>

[Hobarticus]

1. Yeah...block his address and get new friends.

Just kidding.

[Mend]

2. republican friend = oxymoron

[eallen]

3. This is really easy. Everyone is in favor of religion in government....

When it is their own religion. Urge him to honestly consider the "turnabout test," whenever there is an issue about the mixing of church and state. Does he not object to Judge Moore installing the 10 Commandments in the forum of the Alabama Courthouse? How would he feel if an Islamic judge had installed a statue of Mohammed there? Would he really feel that his own religious freedom was not then a bit constrained? How would he feel if the wording of the pledge were changed to "under Allah?"

[bush_is_wacko]

24. Thanks, very helpful. I had to remind him that Americans are ALL

Foreigners along with this statement and that there are many Americans that speak English, follow the law,AND practice the Muslim religion, but this was a great start to that paragraph.

[NoPasaran]

4. Not all Republicans are idiots

But most idiots are Republicans

[Kerrytravelers]

6. Don't engange any longer

I'd simply say that your emails are clearly an attempt to start an argument. My time is too valuable to waste on such nonsense. Please no longer email me for I am, at this point, done going in circles. I only engage in intelligent correspondences that actually move in a forward direction.

In the future, all emails will be blocked. If you use a new email address, I will not read them.

Please respect my wishes.





I'd love to tell this guy there was nothing unknown about Kerry's plan if he'd bothered pulling his head out of his arse and engage in reality for a moment. But a guy lke this isn't bright enough to understand this. That is why I suggest not engaging with this idiot any longer.

[maxsolomon]

5. his mind is closed. disengage your debate.

everything he sends, just say "you're so right, don't ever change", & leave it at that.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. Or use Mencken's reply: "Dear Sir: You may be right."

He probably won't get it. :evilgrin:

[DemBones DemBones]

7. Send him the debunking on Rooney again and see how he responds.

I'd just send him that since he's pretending not to have gotten it. Add a note -- "can't believe you didn't get this before."

Eventually, you're going to have to start ignoring his e-mails or tell him to shut up, IMO.

[LoZoccolo]

15. Ha ha that's a good one!

:yourock:

[artfan]

9. There are some things not worth fighting

Your friend is not goint to believe anything you say. He says he has a mind of his own but the arqument used is one I have heard so often from the right it is clear the "I can think for myself" phrase is just delusional thinking.

As far as the religious beliefs of the founders they varied. But were aware the havoc religious wars played in Europe and wanted to avoid that. Jefferson was NOT a religious person but he did believe in a higher power. You should read the Jerrfeson Bible.

Ask which founders Jeferson,Franklin etc were born here they did not come here. If he is talking about the people who settled VA they came for the $$$ and land. The Puritains came for religious reasons and were very much into a theocracy (as long as they called the shots). Anne Hutchenson and Roger Williams founded RI on the principles of religious freedm.

Another interesting note or two many people who settled here early were 'criminals' they were sent here as a punishment. The mating rituals of the time were also interesting 8 month babies were common because "proof of fertility" was needed for a marriage to be approved.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

10. Here are a few quotes for you...

"The founders of this country came here vowing to keep the government OUT OF OUR RELIGIONS - NOT to keep religion out of the government.

On the contrary, keeping religion (and the immoral fools who believe they speak for God) out of power, is precisely what our founders intended. The Middle East and Northern Ireland are hardly the first mixing of religion and government. Our Founding Fathers wanted to ensure that it didn't happen here.

Don't believe me, my exceedingly ignorant friend? Then read the following quotes:


George Washington: "The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian Doctrine"

Thomas Jefferson: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Thomas Paine: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church.

Roger Williams: God requireth not a uniformity of religion.

Thomas Jefferson: The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and the freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated Reformer of human errors.

James Madison: During almost fifteen centuries the legal establishment known as Christianity has been on trial, and what have been the fruits, more or less, in all places? These are the fruits: pride, indolence, ignorance, and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance, arrogance, and servility in the laity, and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

Thomas Jefferson: I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.

John Adams: The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.

Thomas Paine: Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in
religion is the worst.

Abraham Lincoln: The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my
religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.

Benjamin Franklin: As to Jesus of Nazareth, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with the most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts to his divinity.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[cry baby]

16. This is really powerful stuff, thanks for compiling it for us. n/t

[rumpel]

23. Thank you. I learned a lot, This needs to be framed.

[lavenderdiva]

11. I went through something similar with a good friend of mine,

who is, unfortunately, Republican. It got to the point that if we continued to wrangle about our political beliefs, where there would never be any agreement, we would lose our friendship. We have been extremely close friend for over 30 years. So we agreed to never discuss politics. That has been since 1999. So far it has worked for us. We did send some very inocuous political cartoons once or twice during the past election, but they weren't pointed and clearly meant to be funny. Neither one of us took it the wrong way. I find that you will not change their minds, only frustrate yourself. You are expending a LOT of energy on this, and aggravating both of you. Determine how much this friendship means to you, and go from there. If this person is not a close friend, and the friendship is not meaningful in anyway to you, I'd consider taking the previously given advice of letting the friendship go. Just my humble opinion...

[smurfygirl]

12. I remember in the eighties when Reagan was President

There was a huge uproar in the Christian community about having religion in schools. But the funny thing is that they didn't want religion in the schools. It all started with some wiccan or pagan teacher and then moved in to Satanist's controlling the schools and atheists making the school lunches. So, the Christians pretty much said enough and decided it was best to get religion out of schools and goverment. I clearly remember this, It went on for quite sometime. I say, let them have their religion in school and goverment but let everyone else have their's too. It will be just like the eighty's and I guarantee you that they will regret their decision in 5 years and decide once again to have a seperation of goverment and religion. Anyway here are some quotes that certainly should help you out. I read your "friends" email and came to the conclusion that your writing is probably too complicated for his small meager mind, maybe tone it down to words he can understand. You know four letter words.:loveya:

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." - Thomas Jeffferson

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -James Madison

"As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men." - Thomas Paine

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."-Benjamin Franklin

"The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion." -Abraham Lincoln

"I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be introduced into the public schools of the United States." - Thomas Edison

"There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing and predatory as it is - in our country particularly, and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat modified degree - it is still a hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodigious crime- the invention of Hell. Measured by our Christianity of to-day, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the Deity nor His Son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilt." -Samuel Clemons


"Loyalty and responsibility toward the people and the Fatherland are most deeply anchored in the Christian faith."
--Adolph Hitler

[adigal]

13. I am a fighter

Yes, the founders came here for religious freedom - to practice their religion as they see fit. And I agree - we should have symbols of religion in our government.

Now, as I just converted to (choose your unusual religion here) I feel we should have a symbol of my religion right next to the manger at Christmas time. My freedom of religion is complete, no? So you had better support my desire for my symbols to be out there too, or you are promoting an official religion, which our forefathers definitely did not want.

And your bias is showing calling "liberal NUTS or right wing conservatism." In my view, those that don't care that we have been lied to about WMDs and support torture are the ones who are NUTS.

[LoZoccolo]

14. How about these five words.

Ha ha you got caught!

You could say more though.

I don't create these e-mails - I just pass them along.

'chyeah I see that!

And most of the time your replies don't even have anything to do with what was sent to you.

Hey what's this at the bottom of the message?

P.S. Like it or not - Kerry and his "unknown plan" will not be the one being inaugurated on Thursday - and for that - the MAJORITY of America is glad."

Woooooooo hoooooooo!

(Don't get into an angry fight with him, just keep making him feel stupid. You know you've done that already by his tone! He'll be sorry he ever even passed his first right-wing email around!)

[Jackie97]

17. First....

It's arrogant to say that the government should stay out of religion, but not the vice versa. The constitution says that the government should not establish a religion. That means they can't promote one or anything of that nature. That means the government is not to be religious, atheist, etc.

Also, you might want to look up where Jefferson said the constitution called for a "separation of chuch and state".

Most to all atheists are liberals, but all conspiracy theorists are not. Look up the Evil Atheist Conspiracy.

Also look up dumb conspiracies about bin Laden and Hussein being connected; propoganda by conservatives.

I don't know what these jokes he speaks of are, but I would tell him if I thought they weren't funny and to stop sending them to me.

As far as Kerry's "unknown plan" works, he would have known what they were if the had gotten up off his lazy ass and went to johnkerry.com. He didn't want that did he? He just wanted to follow someobody who would spoonfeed him.

I'm sorry. I'm normally not into personal friends or family on here. I'm always telling people not to insult, but this's guy's arrogant e-mail makes me want to give him a piece of my mind myself.

[brown6004]

18. On this point your friend is correct.

"The founders of this country came here vowing to keep the government OUT OF OUR RELIGIONS - NOT to keep religion out of the government."

BUT

Ask him why and the hell he thinks it's ok to support a President who wants to give public monies for "faith" based institutions. If George Bush or any other effing scumbag congressman or Senator wants to give money to a church, mosque, temple, or whatever...they can give their own damn money. Leave my tax money the hell alone.

If he really believes his former statement then he shouldn't support Bush.

[Lexingtonian]

19. don't be too adamant

The Constitution is the social contract of the country. The preamble sets the spirit of the social endeavor:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Tell the person that to see religion, e.g. Christianity, endorsed in that statement is a kind of Creationism- wishful thinking and I Miss My Daddy immaturity. I think the Federalist Papers have quite a bit about no one of that era thinking that government wasn't a vile and ugly and morally besmirched business- certainly most unChristian. Look, for the next century the primary business of American government was the theft of land and suppression of its rightful stewards/owners as well as protecting the institution of slavery until the revulsion at it became the fundamental schism in American life.

As for there being different ways of interpreting the Constitution, that reflects simply that Southerners still believe the Confederate Constitution to have been the correct one, not the federal one that actually exists. (There's a similar problem in the way they read the Bible, but that's offtopic here.) And yes, Republicans are actually spoon-fed their opinions. Every day and learned as children while spoonfed in the most literal way- how else to explain the way they reflect the bigotry of their parents.... Why they reject the wise and accept the foolish opinions, that is the true conundrum and sorrow.

About your friend...for one thing, anarchists and conspiracy theorists do tend to be radical Leftists- but they are rarely liberals. Right and Left extremists tend to remarkably converge in their opinions and illiberalism. Liberals can not be anarchists, by definition and implication (they live by a social contract), and they regard true conspiracies as a means of power concentration by the weak rather than the strong.

Secondly, the reason Democrats go to church in front of cameras is because Republicans do, and both do it because vehement selfprofessed Christians in this country have the curious mental disability of being too insecure in their faith to elect any other kind of person. Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are unsure
that we are doubly sure. -Reinhold Niebuhr (US Protestant theologian).

In fact, the need to ally Christianity and the powers of the federal government reflects that Christianity is in decline in this country. The more it has to be preached by the secular government, the more hollow the churches and weaker and full of bad faith the Believers. The suppression of their critics means that the Believers don't actually consider their own foundation strong enough to endure. So, real Christians should be ashamed of the government coming in to their aid, and of course government can't reflect actual Christianity in any substantial way. It reflects Bibliodolatry and Christdolatry and theist-dolatry and the vanity-based Messianism of the ignorant and colonialist classes of Americans.

Thirdly, and this is unfortunately personal...you do seem to have forced rather too much in the way of supposition on this person. Righteousness, how ever well argued, doesn't get people to change their outlook. It sounds to me that this person is one of the 80% of Republicans that is too invested in that mode of misinterpreting the world, and you're similarly too invested in the converse. Genuine dialogue is about letting things speak for themselves, is not about keeping people on the defensive and annoyed with things that do not really get at their true concerns and reasons for making the choices they do. This sounds like a Republican by birth and raising and present personal environment, so the emotional attachments are too much to overcome on this person's own. The external condition has to change for this person's "opinion" and sense of investment to change.

[Branjor]

20. How can the government be kept out of religion

if religion is not kept out of the government?

[brown6004]

25. Huh?

Restricting religion in government is not freedom. It's a slippery slope.

If you restrict religion...what's next...speech? Oh wait...I forgot about campaign finance reform.

Restricting things that are in our Bill of Rights is not FREEDOM.

[Seemann For Congress]

21. Simple

Since the guy obviously wants to insult you, your response is easily crafted.

Use his own words.....

Republicans actually have minds of their own and do not have to be spoon-fed what their opinions should be.

and

I don't create these e-mails - I just pass them along.

Just say "if Republicans have minds of their own, then why are you unable to write these e-mails yourself. You openly admit you don't write them, you just pass them along. How about forming an opinion of your own instead of parroting what somebody else writes?"

Then watch his head implode.

[rumpel]

22. What strikes me, is that your friend still believes that "liberals" are

being spoonfed by the MSM "hype".
The hype since 9/11 has been to spoonfeed Bush agenda, without serious questioning, initiating war in Iraq, complete with the spoonfed embed journalists.

Seperation of Church and State I would interpret to go both ways. Yet Bush's faith based initiative is meddling into church affairs, by dangling the money carrot, to expand on his agendas.

The term Majority is the question in about half of the country. It was certainly not a slamdunk, and when all irregularities would have been checked into and hand recounted, we may still find out that Kerry won, like Gore did 4 years ago.
History will tell.

[bush_is_wacko]

28. see post #27 in response...n/t

[hollowdweller]

26. See the guy doesn't even realize he's passing on right wing spam disguised

as jokes. Last week a very liberal friend sent me a right wing spam e mail about "remember when you drank from a garden hose and not from a bottle?" and a bunch of stuff about how life was simpler as kids. It wound up with the clincher "before lawyers and government regulators took over"

There are SO many of these type e mails that are disguised as jokes, or just good old common sense stuff that have a right wing agenda. I really feel there is some organ of the RNC disseminating them. How many Democrat e mails do you get? I never get hardly any!

[bush_is_wacko]

27. I actually did point this out. Here's my response.

HIM: “But that's just my opinion - not something I was spoon-fed into believing by local and national news media hype – as are a lot of liberal's opinions. “

MY RESPONSE: If you knew all you claimed to know you’d understand that liberals all over this country have been DISCONNECTING from MEDIA, television and radio, for YEARS. We no longer believe a WORD of what main stream media tells us. Actually, it’s not just liberals, it is several generations of American’s from all walks of life and political spectrums.

HIM: "You appear to be stuck on this one-track mind set where you seem to take everything I send you as being democratic or republican - I SEND YOU JOKES - A PEOPLE'S COMMON SENSE OPINIONS - THINGS THAT FOR THE MOST PART HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH LIBERAL NUTS OR RIGHT WING CONSERVATISM."

MY RESPONSE: On the contrary, they have EVERYTHING to do with politics. The sentiments contained in them are, quite frankly, disrespectful of the rights of others. This country we fought three wars for rights. One for the right to be a free Nation, one for the right to free men and women of a certain race that a portion of the country was willing to call 2/3rds man and treat WORSE than dogs, and one unarmed one for the continuing Civil rights of those same people along with MY rights as a woman.



HIM: "The dems are always hell-bent on saying we can't mix religion and government - but show me ONE Democrat that doesn't go to church in front of the cameras every week when campaigning and who doesn't meet with religious leaders to try to get their votes. Believe it or not -different people actually interpret the constitution in different ways depending on their personal beliefs and opinions."

MY RESPONSE: To reply to this: Well, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Liberals, Dems, Independents, and Republicans are all ENTITLED to have faith. And a LARGE NUMBER of us do. There are an awful lot of Republican’s that simply believe those not of their political and religious persuasion are, well, EVIL You may not be one of them, but never-the-less they DO exist. The picture you are missing is how much rhetoric YOU have heard from these particular Republican’s and to what extent they are now affecting all of our rights in this Nation. You have obviously fallen victim to this rhetoric because you have essentially repeated to me THEIR party line statements.

[bush_is_wacko]

29. THANKS EVERYONE! You have been very helpful. I wish I could

ignore him, but he is a very good family friend and despite his email, he really has a heart of gold when it comes to helping out a friend in a jam. I have said this before and I'll say it again. He is one of the kool-aid zombies, but I really think he is a liberal at heart and doesn't realize it because he doesn't actually research what the party is doing. I was actually very upset by this email and I will not respond to any more of these from him. Someone said I had already obviously made him feel a little dense. I never accused him of that, I just gave him the facts. I guess I'll give him one more set of facts and if he doesn't get it, oh well, I tried.