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pinkpops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:05 PM
Original message
Wes Clark supposedly made a comment about sending
software jobs to India. I am interested in hearing what he supposedly said, what others have said about what he said, and what he has said since. If anyone has kept up with this could you please comment?
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deminflorida Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here you go...
Tax Incentives to Keep Manufacturing Jobs in the U.S. General Clark supports current legislative efforts to keep and expand production in the United States. To that end, as President, Wes Clark would institute a 90-day review of all tax and spending provisions affecting large manufacturing firms with a particular focus on whether any tax and spending provisions provide manufacturing firms an incentive to move jobs overseas. As President, General Clark would support initiatives that could provide manufacturing firms the incentive to keep (and expand) manufacturing jobs in the United States.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That looks cherry picked from the Clark site
Why don't you quote the REAL statement?
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Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Do you have the real statement?
eom
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Jackson Smith Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Nice to see that you're really behind the Party.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Here you REALLY go
Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 08:36 PM by HFishbine
CLARK: We want to be ahead of the software revolution. Let them do the software in India; we'll do other things in this country.

We can do that. All it takes is leadership.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A10799-2003Nov24?language=printer
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. "My Vote is Non Transferable"
That's the spirit.
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pinkpops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I like that
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Clark was saying that we need to give businesses incentives
to create new industries and to let the simple computer software jobs go.
He wants the companies not to rest on their collective asses and to go out and forge new frontiers into new industries so we can create and lead the creation jobs around new technologies.

I am a consultant. I was shocked to say the least @ what he says cuz that cuts into my bread and butter. But you know I am bored with what I'm doing. I want there to be new technologies for me to get into and to lead. I was on the bleeding edge of the whole ERP Peoplesoft Oracle SAP stuff. That is getting old. Everyone has it I'm looking for something new to get into.

Now I understand.
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Jackhammer Jesus Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Agreed.
Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 08:40 PM by Jackhammer Jesus
Funny how some people look at one sentence and throw their hands up in dismay, rather than looking at the context of the entire statement. I like what Clark said about working on staying ahead of the software revolution, keeping us in the forefront of new fields and creating new jobs - not trying to bring back old ones that we've already lost to other countries.

At the same time, he also wants to PREVENT that from happening in the future by creating incentives for businesses to stay here in the US. That doesn't sound like "wanting to ship software jobs overseas," as some people have been saying. He's just going to focus on moving ahead and creating new jobs as well as giving businesses a reason not to go overseas. Sounds damn good to me.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. November 24th debates
Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 08:12 PM by HawkeyeX
You'll find that quote.

That is why I DO NOT support Clark.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A10799-2003Nov24?language=printer

BROKAW: If you canceled NAFTA and WTO, I don't think it'll address a concern that Andy Grove, who is one of the founding geniuses that Silicon Valley, has, which is that he says by the year 2010, General Clark, in India, they'll have more people working in software and software services than we will have in this country. And he sees no evidence in either party of a public policy to address that critical component of our economic future.

CLARK: Well, I'm very concerned about exactly what Andy Grove has said, and canceling NAFTA and WTO will not solve the problem.

We have to have the right policies to create jobs in America, and to have companies that are hiring in this country stay in this country and not outsource.

So here is what I'll do: When I am president, the first thing I will have is $100 billion job creation program. Then we'll go and look at the tax code. We'll take away any incentives for companies that want to outsource or leave the country. And we'll have incentives for companies to create jobs in here.

But we need to go beyond all of that. We really need a national goals program. Software was great, the technology and the information revolution was great, but there are a lot of technologies out there. We've got great scientists in this country. We need to set some national goals. We have the mechanisms to do it, put the research money in to basic and applied research and let those inventions and discoveries come out in intellectual property that we can use in this country to create employment.

Energy and environmental engineering are two very fertile areas for the growth of American jobs.

CLARK: We want to be ahead of the software revolution. Let them do the software in India; we'll do other things in this country.

We can do that. All it takes is leadership.


Hawkeye-X
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jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. HawkeyeX
You hammer Clark constantly on a wide range of issues. This silly debate 'gaffe' is only one of a long list.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Clark's SOA issue
is a major one. People who has been a long time Clark supporters are peeling off the "blanket" and finding out who Clark really is -- a person that is totally empty suit.

Hawkeye-X
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's right, let's go on devouring each other!
White House welcomes upset

The topsy-turvy results produced smiles at the White House, where advisers hoped for a long, nasty race that would produce a damaged nominee and a divided Democratic Party. Bush stole the spotlight from Democrats with the annual State of the Union address, a dressed-up version of his campaign agenda.

“They have 17 contests over the next five weeks,” White House communications director Dan Bartlett said, without a hint of regret. “So it looks like the roller coaster is just beginning,”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/4006605/
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here's more from Clark on H1-B and Globalism
As a software consultant in the US, I am very encouraged by Clark's stated positions on a range of issues that affect my industry, from H1-B visas, to the outsourcing of jobs. I took the liberty of transcribing some of Clark's comments on these topics from a NH Town Hall meeting he did a few weeks back. Please treat this as an unofficial / rush transcript.

From the VFW pancake breakfast in Nashua, NH, broadcast on CSPAN (12/20/03)

Question: I'd like to know your philosophy surrounding globalism and what you'll do with H1-B visas and also the dramatic amount of offshore outsourcing.

General Clark: Yeah, I'm very concerned about it. You know- the issue is globalism - H1-B visas are the visas that are given to these very smart, computer literate experts from the Indian Institute of Technology who come into the country. They often work at reduced wages to the native... to American citizens, and then they leave and they take back their skills, and they take back what they've learned here and start businesses at home. And, what's happened is, is that we- we took advantage of an explosion in trade opening, technology, improved communications, the fall of the Iron Curtain and so forth in the 1990's. And it brought an immediate surge of prosperity to the United States. But we didn't understand the full dimensions of what we were dealing with. In the 19th century, when we began to develop railroads, first they were developed in Britain. And then the British invested in America. And of course to build railroads you have to have steel and to have steel you have to dig up iron ore and you have to... and so it...it was a 30 year process to industrialize America. Started before the Civil War, really picked up speed after the Civil War... by the turn of the Century we were the greatest power in the world, but it took 30 years.

A hundred years ago the Brits were asking themselves, "What happened? We, We - Britain - We were the leaders in the industrial age and now America and even Germany has overtaken us in Steel production. And we're no longer the greatest industrial power." And they paid for it.

What we didn't understand is with the knowledge industry it doesn't take 30 years. You don't have to build blast furnaces and Bessimer converters and open pit iron mines. All you have to have is a telephone wire, and a laptop computer, and you simply bring it in and work. And so it's meant an export of software jobs and service industry jobs things like telephone calling and other things that have migrated overseas at an astonishingly rapid rate. And that's what's happening to America. Not only cheap Chinese manufacturing, but also the software stuff.

So here's what I will do. In the first place, I believe in 'Buy American'- not only hardware, but software. Everything that's associated with national security we will procure in the United States. (APPLAUSE) Our financial industry, our utility industries, virtually every aspect of American life is controlled in some way by information technology. And we simply can't afford to have that developed abroad in other countries, because you can't tell what's in it. It works but you don't know whether it's got these so called trap doors and other things that could sabotage it at some point. So the essential stuff is, buy American hardware and software. We need to relook the H1-B visa. I'm all in favor of bringing people into this country, but only at fully competitive wage rates. (APPLAUSE) Not bringing people in to take jobs from Americans. (APPLAUSE continuing) And when they come here, I'd like them to stay and become American citizens... I met a man in Manchester the other day from India, he's a graduate of the Indian Institute of Technology, he came here, started a software company, married an American woman, they're running a serires of Nursing Homes - I congratulate him. It's the American dream. It's a success story. And we're glad to have him. So we want 'em to come but we want them to stay and be with us and put that creativity to work here and keep it in our economy.

And I will also remove all the business incentives that will let companies profit, taxwise or otherwise, from outsourcing jobs or moving their headquarters abroad. (APPLAUSE). We're not gonna keep America safe and we're not gonna make ourselves prosperous by walling off America from the outside world. But trade and markets exist to help people. They're not gods... you don't worship them... you dont let them go and do whatever they want. They have to be regulated, they have to be made fair, they have to be made transparent, people have to have information to participate in them. We're going to ask every company that outsources jobs to report it so that as Americans we know which companies are preparing to outsource jobs, and we're going to provide incentives for companies who want to keep jobs and expand jobs in America. We're going to protect American employment (APPLAUSE). (Person asking question nods head).

In Berlin New Hampshire a man in the Paper Mill said to me, he said, "You know I'm really worried" he said, "You know we got a hundred and twenty people laid off here. We're working through Christmas we're working 12 hour days but we don't know if we're going to have our jobs after Christmas. We're under foreign competition, we just don't know what's happening," he said, "And this country can't live if it doesn't produce things - it can't just buy Chinese manufactured goods." And he's exactly right, and I promise you (APPLAUSE) I promise you as president of the United States, we'll put America back to work and we will produce - we won't just service, we will produce- and we'll make the finest products in the world in everything from energy technology, to environmental technology, to new automobiles, to battery chips, generators, software, hardware, jet planes and whatever else there is, and we'll be proud to see on our products, Made in the USA.(APPLAUSE)

http://abby.forclark.com/story/2003/12/31/17032/961

The original video of the breakfast is at http://www.span.org. Search for "Clark". Can't miss it.
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. don't you know?
Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 08:30 PM by newsguyatl
issues don't matter anymore.


it's image.




dean's yelp last night is MUCH more important than what clark thinks about jobs going overseas, or his record voting republican, or his yey or nay opinion of the iraq war... which was it again?





wake up. you're livin' in george bush's america -- where HE and his bought and owned media tells you what's important and what's not.





dean's not presidential material... but george bush is... don't you know?
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Hoppin_Mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. It was this MONUMENTAL gaffe that Clark made in a debate
"At the Democratic Debate on November 24th, the debate moderator, Tom Brokaw, asked Gen. Clark about the outsourcing of jobs to India .  Referring to comments by Intel Chairman Andy Grove, Brokaw asked Clark: 

"By the year 2010, in India , they'll have more people working in software and software services than we will have in this country and he (Andy Grove) sees no evidence in either party of a public policy to address that critical component of our economic future." 

Clark's answer ?    "Let them do the software in India .  We'll do other things in this country."    "

The campaign went into 'full duck and cover' mode after this stunning remark was picked up by the other candidates, and then put out a press release saying he didn't really mean what he said. I can't wait till this Thursday's debate.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. And Clark's supporters are making wild excuses
about Clark not showing up for Iowa debates when Lieberman did -- so he doesn't have another gaffe again. I'm betting 5-1 that Clark will screw up AGAIN on Thursday's debate and see his numbers drop dramatically in NH.

Hawkeye-X
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Jackhammer Jesus Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm not sure how seriously to take that.
If I recall, you were betting on a landslide in Iowa for Dean, right?
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I suspect you're going to get a lot older before you get an answer
to that question.

Apparently a couple of guys didn't get the memo that knocking the other candidate isn't working quite as well as it did back in the good old days. Now, when voters see people in their own party sniping at people in their own party, well, you end up with Iowa.

Al Franken made a comment on how happy he was to raise money for several candidates and then see it be used against other candidates that he also raised money for.

There are people here who would have preferred Clark to say that if he was president all outsourcing would stop, at least in their industry. Clark acknowledged that we might as well accept the fact that something like that can't be done. We can encourage companies to stay here with tax credits, penalties, etc., but if it is better for the bottom line to do the work in India, you'd better develop a taste for curry.

Its ironic that we only want politicians to tell us the truth if its a truth we already agree with.

So much easier to hear a soothing lie than to have to face brutal facts. Software and IT and all sorts of other stuff is going away. We have to find new and innovative products and services to provide or waste our time pining after tech jobs the same way the garment workers are forced to do.

I sometimes think these guys are looking to elect a God rather than a President.
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robsul82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. In a debate, he said "Let the software jobs go to India."
An off-the-cuff remark made in the middle of an argument (if I remember correctly) and he did it early in his campaign. I'm sure he's learned from it. It doesn't much matter.

Later.

RJS
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. "We want to be ahead of the software revolution..."
"We want to be ahead of the software revolution. Let them do the software in India; we'll do other things in this country. "

Not really the same thing, is it.

He said that we needed to stay ahead of the curve. "Software was great", but the new growth fields, and America's future niche, were likely going to be elsewhere.

I'm tired of this type of politics, where a catchy phrase comes out of context in a way that the explanation just is too much bother for the media. I've got real hope that the last two months of this campaign will be about more than this.
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robsul82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Hey, did you even READ the rest of my post?
I was trying to SUPPORT your candidate...ahhhh, screw it.

Later.

RJS
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LoneStarDem Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. All in the context
I agree with what the above posters have said (the ones with the actual analysis, not the peanut gallery). I only have to add:

What Clark was saying (and YES, this is what he was saying, anti-Clark spinners notwithstanding) was that we cannot run technology jobs as a commodity market. Someone previously made a great comparison to the railroad industry in the 1800's. In brief, it was created in Britain but almost entirely co-opted by America; British rail industry died on the vine. In the information age this kind of thing happens at light speed and the only way to stay ahead of it is innovation, industry creation, and education. Protectionism only makes the bleeding more painful in the end. If we can't offer anything more than warm bodies in competition with Indian programmers, we will lose. We have to do everything we can to remove incentives to outsource, and we have to guarantee we are on the bleeding edge of innovation.
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