Clark the next Thomas Jefferson!

[Quixote1818]

I am a historian and I have read dozens of books about our founding fathers and how important reason and free thought was in creating our constitution. How the Enlightenment helped shape the philosophies of our founders and our country. When I found out what a huge fan of the Enlightenment Clark was it took me all of two seconds to move over to the Clark camp. I think Clark thinks like a revolutionary patriot. He is like Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Madison and Washington. A real free thinker and probably the most liberal of the bunch.

The Age of Enlightenment

The ‘Age of Enlightenment’ is a term used to describe the trends in thought and letters in Europe and the American colonies during the 18th century, prior to the French Revolution of 1789-1799.
Enlightenment meant an emergence from centuries of darkness and ignorance to a new age guided by reason, science and a new respect for humanity. New discoveries in science such as Newton’s law of gravity gave mankind a new way of looking at the world. If mankind could unlock the laws of the universe, God’s own laws the possibilities of reason were thought to be endless. People came to assume that through a judicious use of reason, an unending progress would be possible; progress in knowledge, technical achievement, and even in moral values.

From Bill Maher:

CLARK: That’s in our Constitution. Let me follow on this, okay? I think we should be very clear on this. You know, this country was founded on the principals of the Enlightenment.

MAHER: Right.

CLARK: It was the idea that people could talk, reason, have dialogue, discuss the issues. It wasn’t founded on the idea that someone would get stuck by a divine inspiration and know everything right from wrong. I mean, people who founded this country had religion, they had strong beliefs, but they believed in reason, in dialogue, in civil discourse. We can’t lose that in this country. We’ve got to get it back.

Wouldent it be awesome to have someone like Jefferson back in the White House?

Quotes:

"This I believe:
That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world.
And this I would fight for:
The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected.
And this I must fight against:
Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual."
John Steinbeck

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” Thomas Jefferson advised one of his nephews in the course of a disquisition on religious education.

Clark will bring back the principles we were founded upon! What more can you ask for?

[xultar]

I could buy that! n/t

[bowens43]

1. Oh please....

You have got to be kidding.

[KittyWampus]

11. Clark Is Not Only Brilliant Intellectually

He excels at accomplishing tasks on the Physical Realm as well.

So why would he be kidding?

Apparently some people know very little about Clark.

[KoKo]

18. Another "Oh Puleeze!" Clark another Thomas Jefferson? Are you saying

he has slaves or maybe the troops he commanded were his slaves and so he knows how to "manage people?" What has Clark invented and what has he read. Jefferson was a genius for all his flaws. I've visited Monticello, and read about him.....Clark as Jefferson....Pshaw!

[Quixote1818]

24. This is Sad

I am not claming Clark to have the impact Jefferson had but what is important is that Clark understands what Jefferson and the other founders believed. Clark will be instrumental in reviving the idea that Reason and not superstition should be our guide. How is that a bad thing? I think this is something badly needed in this country today. Badly needed. We need Clark to bring back ideas like the Enlightenment and dispel the Christian Nation crap that the Right has mobilized. I can't believe all the resistance to this. I thought I was on a Democratic board not a close-minded board. This is discouraging. It seems even Democrats have little idea how important the Enlightenment was to the formation of what we are about. What free thought is about. This is sad. I suggest you all start reading about our founders and the Enlightenment and learn something wonderful.

[KoKo]

52. Can you give an example of how Clark proposes to bring a new age of

"Enlightenment" and why you think Dean, Kucinich, Kerry and Edwards aren't trying to do the same thing? Do you think they are all living in the "Dark Ages?"

Comparing Clark or any of these candidates to Jefferson is way OTT. Different men, different time, different backgrounds. Nothing there that I can see. :shrug:

[Quixote1818]

83. Example

Read the quote above in the initial post. I am sure Dean, Kucinich, Kerry and Edwards are all free thinkers but Clark seems to have studied this all extensively and seems to have a wonderful understanding of it all and how it fits into government and free debate. It must be important to him or he wouldent have brought up the Enlightenment so many times. Kucinich is probably in line with Clark on this more than the other candidates. I have heard him say some very wonderful things about philosophy. However Clark studied Philosophy at Oxford so I think he must have about as good a handle on this as anyone. His view on Stem Cell Research shows he is an Enlightenment scientific thinker http://gazetteextra.com/clark_stemcells011704.asp
Clark has a real understanding of history, science, philosophy and the power of education. He puts reason and debate above all.

"The ultimate court of appeal is observation and experiment... not authority." Thomas H. Huxley

Having Clark would be such a breath of fresh air compared to having Bush who thinks God wanted him to be president. Yuck!

[IowaBiker]

2. Jefferson?

Jefferson was a lousy military leader.

[Quixote1818]

4. Free Thinker

I am talking about Clark's political philosophies not his military experience. That’s what makes Clark so awesome, he has so much to offer on an intellectual level not just his military service.

[pocoloco]

3. Works for me!

[Hoppin_Mad]

5. LOL ( I actually DID laugh out loud ) -nt-

[Quixote1818]

6. Enlighten Us Please

Why don't you Enlighten us as to why this is so funny?

[jonnyblitz]

8. I spit my diet coke all over my monitor.

!!!!! :wow: I don't think I better visit this thread anymore tonight.

[arewethereyet]

17. so did I, this is a hoot !

n/t

[genius]

7. This is a joke, right? TJ wasn't a soldier. He was a statesmen.

TJ was a great President but when the British camp to Montecello, he took off. If he had been caught, he would have been hung for treason for writing the Declaration of Independence.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quixote1818]

12. Who ever said he was a soldier?

Who ever said Jefferson was a soldier? I am talking about his political philosophies. There is no arguing that Clark and Jefferson both believe in the principals of the Enlightenment. It's that simple.

[HereSince1628]

9. Nothing against Clark, but does this mean there is an extramarital

affair that's going to come out?

[Quixote1818]

13. Jefferson never had extramarital affair

Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemmings was well after Jefferson's Wife died. Jefferson didn't come out of his room for a week after she died.

[HereSince1628]

14. Well, that's no denial about potential fornication stories...

but then this has gone too far into bad taste already.

How many new species of plants do you suppose Clark will name?

[NashVegas]

15. Thanks for Making My Night

I feel a *swoon* coming on.

[Walt Starr]

16. Will Clark own slaves?

Seriously, I find the comparison ridiculous and insulting.

[Quixote1818]

19. Dean spouting the Bible

Is not like Jefferson.

I never told my own religion nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. For it is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be judged.
-Thomas Jefferson

[Walt Starr]

27. You still haven't answered the question

If Clark is Jefferson, will he own slaves like Jefferson?

[Quixote1818]

48. Jefferson's views on slavery

Jefferson and slavery
Jefferson has been criticized for the keeping of slaves. In his own mind he knew it was an abhorrent system but felt that the wholesale release of a people unprepared for freedom in that particular society was equally irresponsible. He made his position clear with this statement, "The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submission on the other . . . Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever . . . But if something is not done, and soon done, we shall be the murderers of our own children . . ." This was the author of the words, "all men are created equal." Is it any wonder that the issue of slavery was to be an agonizing conflict for Jefferson all of his life? He was born into a family of privilege and a society where the holding of slaves was commonplace. He knew that the public at large would not allow slaves to live as free men, but he sincerely believed that they should be free. He drew up a Bill in his native Virginia to prevent the further importation of slaves which was passed and this was, at least, a first step to the eventual emancipation which was to come in future generations.

[9119495]

43. Slaves? I just don't want to see Clark in one of those wigs.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. Better Jefferson than Madison

but I'm not convinced. Jefferson spent the last years of his life warning about the new corporate oligarchy and called it an "aristocracy of monied interests" that was usurping our democracy.

Has Clark been saying that?

[Quixote1818]

50. Enron whistle-blower endorses Clark

Enron whistle-blower endorses Clark
Associated Press
RESOURCES
• Enron vice President Sherron Watkins' 'smoking gun' memo
From the Chronicle's archives:
• Aug. 13:
Memo just tip of iceberg
• Full coverage of Enron


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The investigation:
• The Powers Report: Internal investigation (10 MB in PDF)
• Report on government's oversight of Enron
• Report on Enron board's role in collapse
(PDF files require Acrobat Reader)


LITTLE ROCK -- The woman who blew the whistle on Enron Corp.'s accounting problems endorsed Wesley Clark for president today, saying she believes he has the integrity to run the country.

In a telephone conference call, Sherron Watkins of Houston said she first saw Clark speak at a conference over the summer and was impressed with his vision and composure. She said she began supporting him during a national "Draft Clark" campaign before he announced as a candidate for the Democratic nomination.

"He really floored me with his long-term vision for America and how he handled the question-and-answer session with his answers on the war on Iraq and the war on terrorism," she said.

A former Enron vice president, Watkins warned company chairman Kenneth Lay in 2001 that the firm could collapse as a result of extensive false accounting. She resigned after the company filed for bankruptcy and was named one of Time magazine's Persons of the Year for 2002.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[Moderator]

53. please respect the rules with regard to copyright

and keep articles from outside sources at 4 paragraphs or less with a link to the article.

Thanks

[corporatewhore]

56. hmm supports free trade and the soa terrorists who enforce it

i think not

[democratreformed]

21. Well, I see things are just about back to normal...

In spite of all the hatefulness above, thanks for posting this. This has been what has always attracted me to Clark - his willingness to listen, discuss, think, and cause others to THINK.

[LoneStarDem]

22. Grrr....

Will someone please take this serious. Even if you disagree, disagree on the level of discourse, not some snipey remark about slaves and whatnot. If you disagree, point out the philosophical inconsistencies, engage in a conversation goddammit. Political philosophy is important.

[Quixote1818]

25. Thank You

Thank You I was getting really discouraged by my fellow Democrats. How could anyone be against bringing back something like the Enlightenment????

[democratreformed]

28. That would indeed be a first n/t

[Walt Starr]

30. Comparing Clark to Jefferson is as absurd

as comparing Dean to Ghandi,

or Kerry to Mr. Ed.

Well, maybe not as absurd as comparing Kerry to Mr. Ed. :evilgrin:

[Quixote1818]

32. What are your thoughts about the Enlightenment?

Wouldn’t you be excited to have a president who would bring back this great philosophy and make people aware of how powerful and important it is?

[HereSince1628]

35. Does that mean Clark is a Mason or an Illuminati?

I seem to remember Jefferson having trouble managing money, is Wes comparable on that dimension too?

[Quixote1818]

39. He is now a Millionaire

Millionaire

Considering the fact that it only took Clark about two years after retiring to become worth 1.5 million it seems to me he is better with money than Jefferson.

[HereSince1628]

41. Yeah there was that little lobbying thing with Axciom for half a mil

That helped him quite a bit. Very very much in the democratic mainstream, that.

And there was some work as a free lance military expert, and then that speech he gave in Arkansas supporting Bush, but I am not sure what that was really worth.

So is Clark a Mason or Illuminati?

[HereSince1628]

47. I won't belabor the point but that would be a DIFFERENCE

with Jefferson. We seem to be encountering a large number of them...

[Hoppin_Mad]

51. Shhhhh- Keep that talk about Acxiom graft on the Q-T, MR Q ! -nt-

[mikehiggins]

75. Just what Acxiom graft are you talking about, Hoppy?

do you have any proof of any illegal doings or are you just posting anti-Clark stuff on autopilot?

[Hoppin_Mad]

80. Graft: the act or procedure of obtaining financial gain

Iillegally or unethically as a result of one's position of power or influence, esp. in government.


Not illegal - but unethical ? IMHO, yes.

Don't worry though - I consider almost all lobbying for profit 'graft'

[Walt Starr]

38. Not gonna happen

It can't be done.

[Quixote1818]

40. Why Not?

That's a great attitude. Why don’t I just go commit suicide? The Enlightenment was alive and well two hundred years ago why not again?

[SaveElmer]

54. Did you even read his original post ?

You are not even addressing the point. He was only comnparing Jeffersons views on public discourse and the use of reason with Clarks own. He wasn't saying Clark and Jefferson were alike in every aspect of their lives.

If you ask me he makes a good point...

[Nederland]

23. Jefferson's Political Philosophy

Jefferson said that "The government that governs least, governs best." Do you fancy Clark to be a libertarian?

[Quixote1818]

29. Not a Libertarian

I don't agree with all of Jefferson's ideas and that was a different more simple time but his bill for Religious freedom has Enlightenment written all over it. However it was Jefferson's idea to start the public schools which does not seem to be very Libertarian and more in line with traditional Democratic ideas.

Thomas Jefferson often referred to knowledge as LIGHT. His life's work was as much a quest for light as for LIBERTY. To America and the world, he affirmed that light upholds liberty, that free government relies on enlightened citizens.

[Nederland]

31. I wasn't wondering about you

I was wondering about Clark. To what degree does Clark agree with Jefferson's anti-federalist political philosophy? What about his views on religion? Is Clark a deist like Jefferson? Do you think he'd approve of Jefferson's rewrite of the bible?

I know virtually nothing about Clark, so I'm just asking.

[tishaLA]

34. Good questions

I'd also wonder about the view that African Americans are less human because they cannot blush and that American wooly mammoths were larger and superior to those that had in habited Europe. I wonder about Jefferson;s assertions that Africans are more "ardent" thank whites or that "the savage is feeble and has small organs of generation."

[Quixote1818]

42. Jefferson and slavery

Jefferson and slavery
Jefferson has been criticized for the keeping of slaves. In his own mind he knew it was an abhorrent system but felt that the wholesale release of a people unprepared for freedom in that particular society was equally irresponsible. He made his position clear with this statement, "The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submission on the other . . . Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever . . . But if something is not done, and soon done, we shall be the murderers of our own children . . ." This was the author of the words, "all men are created equal." Is it any wonder that the issue of slavery was to be an agonizing conflict for Jefferson all of his life? He was born into a family of privilege and a society where the holding of slaves was commonplace. He knew that the public at large would not allow slaves to live as free men, but he sincerely believed that they should be free. He drew up a Bill in his native Virginia to prevent the further importation of slaves which was passed and this was, at least, a first step to the eventual emancipation which was to come in future generations.

[tishaLA]

46. Actually, my post never mentions slavery

which I think is a cheap shot against Jefferson. Mine is talking about "Enlightenment" pseudo-sciences like racial essentialism, phrenological interests , and an overriding interest in the size of sexual organs and its frequency among non-whites. If you want to think I'm talking about slavery, though, please enjoy your version of Enlightenment. BTW, it is not accidental that philosophy has moved on since Hume, Locke, etc.

[Quixote1818]

55. He was raised that way

>>>I'd also wonder about the view that African Americans are less human because they cannot blush and that American wooly mammoths were larger and superior to those that had in habited Europe. I wonder about Jefferson’s assertions that Africans are more "ardent" thank whites or that "the savage is feeble and has small organs of generation."

Look, that was 200 years ago. Jefferson was raised by people who believed that way. He was confused and trying to figure out what to think. Don't tell me you don't understand that because I know you do. If Jefferson were raised in this day in age I have no doubt he would think just like you and I about Blacks and Native Americans. He would see them as just like whites. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[tishaLA]

58. No, I'm critiquing Enlightenment ideas about science and racial essentiali

[Quixote1818]

84. Enlightenment Ideas? No peoples ideas!

Look, the Enlightenment didn't have ideas it was an idea. People have ideas and sometimes they are not perfect. The Enlightenment only put forth a philosophy about how best to run a society and make decisions with reason and free debate and it paved the way for some even more complex philosophies like those of Emerson and Thoreau and the beyond rational intuitive movement called Transcendentalism. They fought for women’s rights and against slavery and became open to all kinds of religions. The Enlightenment paved the way for this to happen. People will make mistakes even with reason and debate but in time those problems through trial and error, reason and free debate will be ironed out. Jefferson was not perfect but he did recognize a philosophy that was brilliant and because of the Enlightenment and Jefferson many truths about race and gender were discovered with reason and free debate. You can't judge the Enlightenment on one instance in time but by it's fruits as time went on. As Jefferson said:

"The University will be based on the illimitable freedom of the human mind for here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." Thomas Jefferson on the founding of the University of Virginia.

[Quixote1818]

37. Clark a Deist?

Clark claims to be a Catholic but based on his political views about religion I can safely say he is a free thinker. He strongly believes in the Separation of Church and State and his belief in allowing Stem Cell Research seems to suggest he is very pro science and values reason over letting religion decide policy. As Jefferson said "Priests dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight." To me this is awesome! I can safely say that Clark would approve of Jefferson's rewrite of the Bible and taking out all the miracles. I would be willing to bet that much like Jefferson he sees Jesus as a great moral reformer but probably human. It would be political suicide for him to say this however his position on so many issues suggests he values Reason over Faith in political discourse. As to Jefferson's anti federalist political philosophy I do know he believes that the states should decide things like gay marriage. I will have to check into that more. My main interest is Clark's belief in putting reason and free debate over religious superstition. Someone who would stick up for our founding values over this Christian Nation crap the far right spouts.

[tishaLA]

26. Much as I respect Clark,

he is not "Jefferson" or that amalgamation appearing in the first paragraph, "Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Madison and Washington". I don't even know how one can collapse people of such disparate philosophical-political backgrounds so easily.

Now that I think about it, I don't want to get into this. I'm going to go reread Notes on the State of Virginia and then Dissertation of Canon and Feudal Law instead.

[Shanty Oilish]

33. It wouldn't surprise me...

The back cover of my copy of Levy's Jefferson and Civil Liberties mentions that Pres. Jefferson "supported loyalty oaths; countenanced internment camps for political suspects; drafted a bill of attainder; urged prosecutions for seditious libel; trampled on the Fourth Amendment; used the army to enforce laws in time of peace; censored reading; chose professors for their political opinions..."

You should get a copy. It's...enlightening.

[Zomby Woof]

78. I will HAVE to read that!

So many books on Jefferson, so little time...

I can recommend two books quickly - "Burr, Hamilton, and Jefferson: A Study In Character", by James Kennedy, and Garry Wills's "A Necessary Evil: A History of American Distrust of Government". The latter offers a thumbnail sketch of what you outlined above. His reaction to Adams's Alien and Sedition Acts was more rife with oppression and fear than the original acts themselves, which were overturned when he reached office.

Ah irony. My jury will be out on Jefferson indefinitely, as well it should be I guess.

[TacticalPeek]

36. You could be right, of course. Clark does grok these values, and

some of his strategy and tactics show it, IMHO. That is one reason that he calls out Delay and Rove by name, because they exemplify the enemy of reason and dialogue.

Clark reveals a great faith in the capacity of humans to get it right, eventually. I think he was moved to run because he recognizes that in the current case, "eventually" is too long, so all good men and women should aid our country now.

In a way, his pragmatic optimism inspires some of the attacks against him. Reminds me of Carter's run in '76, when talk shows chewed over whether he was "too religious" to be President, without noticing what his faith was in. Sometimes it takes a Peace Prize, I guess.

[9119495]

44. "I know Thomas Jefferson...

I am a friend of Thomas Jefferson's, and General Clark...you're no Thomas Jefferson."

from Ben Franklin re-animated.

[HereSince1628]

45. Ben is out of favor, he thought up that terror tool almanac thing...

[9119495]

49. Wittiest comment of the night. Thanks. I'm

going to bed now.

[SaveElmer]

57. I hope you have learned your lesson

Never try and start a serious discussion on this board. If you were hoping for thoughtful reponses in return you are probably very disappointed. This has been the most childish response to an attempt to start a serious discussion I have ever seen here.

Very discouraging

[HereSince1628]

59. Its a fine line we must obey

the rules require we comment on the postings, not ridicule the poster, yet keep the postings relavent to the forum. I think to this point we've managed those issues admirably on a topic that is hard to take seriously.

[SaveElmer]

64. Possibly the subject line could use some scrutiny ... but

His point, which I think is obvious if you read his entire comment, is that Clark believes in the Jeffersonian notion of civil and reasoned public discourse, and that political inspiration comes from honest debate, not divine inspiration. This, I think, puts him at odds with the current President.

He also points out that Clark is well enough educated in American History and political philosophy to know the source of this. This too puts him at odds with the current President.

He was obviously not comparing every facet of Jeffersons persona to Clark. I think possibly that many of these responses, which strike me as being rather rude and un-Jefferson like, are a response to the subject line, and not the content of the post.

[HereSince1628]

66. I still want to know if Clark is a Freemason...reconciling that

with Catholicism would give me insight into Clark's ability to reconcile conflicting philosophies.

BTW "some scrutiny" is way true

[Quixote1818]

72. Clark and being Catholic

I have heard that his becoming Catholic had less to do with his actually religious philosophies and more to do with how the Catholic Church is ran. Much like the military. He felt comfortable in a structured church.

[HereSince1628]

73. So he belongs to things he doesn't really believe in?

That leaves me sort of worse off than I was...

Now you've made me wonder is he is a democrat just because we have a timely and convenient way for him to be a presidential candidate.

Its back to that reconciling philosophies... ideologies vs pragmatism, independent vs democrat.

I am sure you can see my point.

[Quixote1818]

86. It's more complex than that

Look people go to church for all kinds of reasons. My sister goes to a Catholic church even though she doesn’t believe everything they say. She goes because she is comfortable with it and it feeds her soul in a way she can accept. Like Clark she likes the way the Catholic Church is run and it's traditions. In her soul she is a Unitarian but the Unitarian church doesn’t feed her soul the war the Catholic Church does. I have no idea what Clark believes and I don't care. That's his business. What I said was pure assumption but I could be 100% wrong. What is important to me is his respect for or laws and for Religious freedom. That’s all that should matter. His respect for all of our beliefs and us. He can go to what ever church he wants and believe what ever the hell he wants as long as he abides by the law of the land with respect to others. Something Bush has not learned.

[mikehiggins]

74. Why would there be a problem with a Catholic being a Mason?

I'm a Catholic and a Mason, and so are many of my friends and brothers in my Lodge and elsewhere.

Are you either? If not, what is the question?

[HereSince1628]

77. My understanding is there is a problem with conflicting lines of

authority. The question, based on my understanding is that that the church had an issue with the Freemasonry--protestant rebellion connection, is how does one reconcile conflicting beliefs? In terms of understanding a person that could be helpful.

[Quixote1818]

87. There is a problem

It's my understanding that the Masons went underground durring the Spanish Enquisition and thats whear all the secret handshakes and everything came from. I don't know much about it but hear is a site:
http://www2.datasync.com/hearts/catholic.htm

[Quixote1818]

70. Bingo!!!

Finally someone who actually read the initial post. Thank You

[Shanty Oilish]

60. And I'd rather hear how he compares to Democrats

...rather than how he compares to various historical paragons. The former is slightly more difficult, I realize.

[HereSince1628]

62. as a democrat he is incomparable to other candidates

in the interest of fairness let's keep this philosophical :)

[hedgetrimmer]

61. and in my enlightened state... any experience is real...

if this is your experience, then for you it is real... enjoy your reality... i'll enjoy, Kucinich as the next Jefferson...

[Quixote1818]

67. Thank You Kucinich supporter

For me it is real and I appreciate your Existentialist comment. It shows your wisdom and depth. You may notice my handle Quixote1818. Don Quixote was Jefferson's favorite novel. Don Quixote made his own reality and chose to see good and beauty in a world of war and hate. As Don Quixote said "I take a world of Iron and make it into a world of gold". I believe in free though and Externalism when it comes to belief. As Emerson said: "Why should not we have a poetry and philosophy of insight and not of tradition, and a religion by revelation to us, and not the history of theirs?" Thomas Jefferson fought like hell to give me the freedom to use my reason and intuition and find what is real and powerful to me and the freedom to express my discoveries to others. Just to know that Clark believes in my individuality and right to see the world and universe in my own way is very profound and wonderful to me. Unfortunately many on this board don't know what the Enlightenment and later on the Transcendentalist philosophies brought fourth to make society so much better and individuality so important. They don't understand the depth of all this. It's about the ultimate freedom. A free mind! Jefferson and Clark exemplify how profound and beautiful individuality and free thought are. That's what this post is about but most just don't get it. Thank you for getting it!

[HereSince1628]

69. Hedgetrimmer's post seemed rather more post-modern to me...

"if this is your experience, then for you it is real... enjoy your reality"

Which I took to mean there is no reality but the one inside your head.

[hedgetrimmer]

81. how you see creates the world, true alchemy...

... how do you rectify those ideals with a general in the world of man and war...

..." Don Quixote made his own reality and chose to see good and beauty in a world of war and hate. As Don Quixote said "I take a world of Iron and make it into a world of gold."

is it...

[Quixote1818]

88. It's about the good fight

Don Quixote was the first modern novel in the world, created out of a life of disillusion, privation, and poverty by a maimed ex-soldier...whose noble nature and gentle sense of humorous tolerance taught him that life is and unending dialogue between a knight of the spirit who is ever striving to soar aloft, and a squire who clings to his master and strives with might and maine to keep his feet planted firmly planted on the ground. Cervantes understood war and the good fight. He understood what it meant to fight and even die for something you believed in. As the song goes "To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause."

Clark once said that he and a soldier friend were discussing many of the friends who they knew who died in combat. They were discussing if fighting and dying for your country was worth it. Finally they came to the conclusion that "'If there's nothing worthy fighting and dying for, then there's nothing worth living for."

Clark started at the bottom and was nearly killed in combat when he was struck three times with a bullet. He believed in protecting those who could not protect themselves and with that would come a greater good. However he doesn’t take playing with lives lightly at all and that's why he did not believe the Iraq war was worth it at that particular time. For example Richard Perle said:

In the meeting of the House Armed Services Committee
on September 26, 2002, here is what Perle said of Clark:

"So I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."

Clark is a dying bread of people who stand for honor, country and risking your life to help those who can't help themselves. He has all the qualities I wish I had. Sometimes, I think Democrats have a tendency to be too skeptical of military people and what is in their hearts. I use to be that way but always I felt an uneasy feeling in my gut. I came to realize it was that I was not as brave and principled as someone like Clark. Those doubts were a product of my own insecurities and things I didn’t like about myself. All of us in the Clark camp love this guy. We see something rare and sincere and beautiful in him. We see someone who has all the qualities we wish we had. I believe so strongly in Wesley Clark and his ideas his heart and his inner strength I will do absolutely everything I can to see him elected. He is of a dying bread of great men. I urge you to take a closer look. Go meet the people working for him and let them tell you in person what Wesley Clark means to them. It's rare and inspirational and when you look close you will see this is no ordinary man. I promise you that. He stands for something great. That’s how I rectify those words.

[jacksonian]

85. it's really not good for Quixote to curse windmills

i mean, if this discussion is your iron, then make gold.

I think you may be right about Clark, the man gives soul to reason better than than any public figure of my lifetime. But you know now it's a Enlightenment-created post modern world, truth at 24 frames a second.

History is a goood teacher but a poor beacon. What a post modern world craves is clarity - and what is clarity but depth without mystery? The ones here with their Jefferson complaints are just being ourselves with our categories of factoids at our fingertips, claiming inside knowlege to solve the mysteries "let's see, he was the one with the slave girl, right?" --- after all, someone's whole entire life makes a pretty bad home movie, doesn't it?

I just hope Clark knows that he's going to have to be Jefferson at 24 frames a second. Not even Thomas could pull that off - but then we have so much more history behind us, maybe someone has learned something.

[Castilleja]

63. Oh boy.....LOLOLOLOL.

PLEeeeeeeeeeeeease! I am going to be giggling over the thought all night now.

[Zomby Woof]

65. not as a presidential model I hope

His second term was so disastrous, that it made his entire presidency a near failure. Had it not been for the Louisiana Purchase and Lewis & Clark during his first term, he would have been a failure in office.

Read about the Embargo Act of 1807 and the ruinous effect it had on the economy and how it aggravated our international stature, pushing us nearly into war with Britain.

As a politician, Jefferson was something of a craven opportunist and a hypocrite (the Burr persecution comes to mind), which I don't see in Clark. Clark could be likened to Eisenhower, both genial former generals who were supreme allied commanders in Europe, successful in their respective wars, and moderates with appeal across party lines. Clark is far smarter than Eisenhower, which could be why the GOP fears him.

[Quixote1818]

68. You are right

My comparison of Clark and Jefferson is really only about free thought and religious freedom. I am so grateful of Jefferson for fighting for me and giving me the freedom to be who ever I want to be spiritually. To discover what is meaningful and beautiful to my heart and what seems reasonable through reason and free debate. It seems most people on here don’t seem to understand that.

[Zomby Woof]

76. I understand

I have long been fascinated with Jefferson, and I consider his Statute on Religious Freedom in Virginia one of the greatest seminal writings of the American republic. I have read his complete writings, dozens of biographies and character studies, and visited the Monticello at least 6 times. I sounded harsh, but he would have agreed with the assessment of his presidency, since he purposely omitted that accomplishment from his tombstone.

Thanks for letting me indulge my whimsy for presidential history in your thread. :-)

[Shanty Oilish]

71. Jefferson and Civil Liberties

---the Darker Side. Per my post #33 above. You read it too? :)

[Zomby Woof]

79. see post #78

And I will add that to my impossibly long list. :-)

[Mattforclark]

82. I think you are so right

I have no idea why some people seem to have taken from your post that Clark believes all the same things as TJ, but anyway.

I think you were trying to say more generally that Clark is a child of the enlightenment, and I agree with you on that issue. That is also a major reason why I support him; he thinks rationally in an age of darkness. I want a rational president who ways evidence and THINKS sooooooooooooooooooooooo very much. I want a President who is not a clueless idiot with a clouded mind. Is that too much to ask? I hope not.

Some of the other candidates are similar to Clark in this aspect (all are better than Bush), but none come close to him so far as I can tell.