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A call to my fellow Clark supporters – let us emulate our candidate!

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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:33 PM
Original message
A call to my fellow Clark supporters – let us emulate our candidate!
I must admit it – I’m tired. I’m tired of countering hit-and-run claims that Clark is a Republican when his stances on the issues place him so obviously on the liberal side of the ledger. I’m tired of countering one-liners about Clark voting for Reagan 20 years ago or that he's a PNAC plant. I’m tired of countering the same redundant bickering about irrelevant issues where our candidate is concerned. Not to mention claims that another leading candidate is the only one who ever gets attacked. Yeah, right.

Yet, up until now, I have ridiculously continued to respond to the bait.

So, here’s the deal. I’m not going to do it anymore. And, I call on you to do the same.

I say that it’s time to ignore the one-liners. Ignore the hit-and-run attacks on General Clark about PNAC and Reagan and Rove and Republican fundraisers. When you see someone pull out one of the “classics”, just ignore it and move on. Just let the negative threads die; leave the negative, hit-and-run attacks unanswered. These attacks help no one and responding to them only draws attention to the disruptions.

Talk about what Clark has to offer us in the future. Provide people with a glimpse into the future as Clark can mold it. We know that he has made it this far with a positive message and by focusing on the future and what he can do for our country. We need to do the same.

Clark is a liberal who just happens to have been a General, and I think he’s the best of both worlds. In the likely event that this election is focused (by Bush and the media) on national security, I know that Clark is an extraordinary counter to Bush’s Commander-in-Chief façade. I also know that he will lead this country in a new direction and that he cares about traditional Democratic values and ideals.

Clark can bring Independents and swing voters to the party while appealing to the liberal base. His military and foreign policy experience, combined with his liberal stances on issues like health care, education, family issues, poverty, the environment, and many, many more make him an unbeatable combination.

http://clark04.com/issues/
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm Flattered by the Attention
It means Clark is scaring the shit out of people and I love it.
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Yeah, I guess the alternative is that our candidate would be
getting ignored, right? :)

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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Ok, with this logic HellRaiser should be the nominee... He's scary...
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Yes, but this is....
"good" scary, not "bad scary."

}(
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Really good post
I have tried discussions, debates, I've tried positive posts to other people, but there are some who do not want an intelligent discussion.
So, I agree with you. The most effective way to deal with flame throwers is to just ignore them.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. A fisherman knows
If the fish take one type of bait, you keep using it. I wish Dean supporters would also stop taking the bait.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. I disagree
I know we'll never convince the people who repeatedly post the same lies, but there is a much larger audience of people who read the threads. We need to refute the lies as they're thrown out so everyone can see the truth.

If the lies go unanswered, people will believe them. We can respond civilly and politely, while addressing the smears.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. I try to be polite
I really do. But there comes a point... A couple of days ago I had my first post in the nearly 3 years I have been on DU deleted. I wasn't even trying to be nasty, but I guess it was perceived that way. That said, you have no idea how many threads I have avoided and people I have on ignore to maintain being polite.


I agree it it non productive to allow ourselves to be baited by the lies and the myths and the hyperbole. But it is hard to not correct misinformation. WHo knows who might just be checking in for the first time and will read some of the nonsense and think it is for real.

I have a Clark bumper sticker on my car. I think I am a better driver because I do not want to reflect poorly on my candidate! God knows I don't want someone yelling "G-dammn Clark supporter" as he flips me off for cutting him off on the freeway.

MzPip
:dem:
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Maybe part of my problem is that I absolutely refuse to use "Ignore".
I'm not really sure why. Maybe I should start.

Your Clark bumper sticker comment made me laugh, as it seems like something I'd do. See, General Clark is already making life better for everyone because he's improving driving habits!

Hehe. }(
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MariaS Donating Member (545 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. I Agree 100%
Maybe instead of answering back with personal reponses we could just post Clark's positions or items that show the stated claims to be false or distorted. Answering no one directly and only posting sourced materials. Does that make sense to anyone?
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Agreed. Just respond with a "matter-of-fact" statement w/link
You cannot allow a negative/false claim to go unanswered. You have to worry about newbies reading posts and not knowing any better. We can just keep the response "factual" and unemotional.
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funky_bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. We can go one step further
Sometimes, no matter how hard a poster tries, they can only be pushed so far. Now if I were to send an e-mail to a supporter from another camp, I would be disregarded. But if we give a kind and gentle nudge (via private message) to our own, reminding them that we need to be respectful, maybe we can clean up the junk on DU.

Dunno, but it's worth a try.

Aside from that, when you see anything unfounded, regarding another candidate, why not defend THAT thread instead.

A little fairness and diplomacy goes a long way.
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Good thoughts.
I've defended Dean on a lot of occasions (though I must admit that last night was not one of them), and I very much like Kerry and Edwards, so being positive about them has been very easy.

I guess that I've gotten most frustrated when Clark is labeled a one-note candidate. For example, Clark supporters often get accused of supporting him only because he looks good in a uniform, etc.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I think the uniform is an added bonus and a very convenient counterpoint to Bush's false military bravado, but it is Clark's views on the issues and his visions for America that make him my candidate.
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funky_bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I agree with you
It does get tough, and being the sarcastic horses ass that I am, I often bite at the bit to dig back. But those who form their opinions of Clark based on their one-liners and frequently used digs, will not be swayed by our responses, whether they be logical, or slam-dunk retaliations in kind.

The Dean folk here on DU got it right on the money. If you don't respond to the obvious flamebait, it will drop right off the board. IF you respond, you will give it the kick it needs to stay on page one.

I'll respond to people with genuine concerns... "I have a serious question about Clark's lobbying efforts..." or "Did Clark really support the SOA?" But if it looks obvious to me that it's an opposing camp's attempt to rehash a flame war, I stay way the hell away from it.

The only other option I find useful is to keep a file of "standard rebuttals" to issues. These are previous responses on SOA, "Clark the Republican" and "Lobbyist Whore" threads which I have typed myself. As new info becomes available, I revise my files. The point of that is to keep me from wasting my time, rebutting the standard slams. I open, copy, paste, and move on to those who have not already decided to hate Wes Clark, but are genuinly trying to seek knowledge.

My 2-cents, worth less due to inflation.
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funky_bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. I'm getting torn to shreds
Here I am, trying to be all diplomatic, offering words of praise for all the candidates, and I'm still getting torn to shreds. I've been called "bogus", "silly" and told my opinions are "bullsh*t."

So nice to know that some camps will hate you, no matter who you like. Take heart, guys! It ain't just Clark they hate.
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I think a lot of the past few days is just knee-jerk reaction....
Regardless of what Dean and his supporters say, Iowa had to be a tremendous shock and the polls in NH are tightening up, as well. Dean had a 30-point lead in NH not so long ago and looked unstoppable to many.

The dramatic changes in IA and NH have to be a little disconcerting to his supporters, even to those who are trying to put a happy face on everything. His post-causus speech didn't help.

I think it's human nature for denial and frustration to set in, and I think that's a lot of what you're encountering. I read a couple of the responses to other messages you've posted today, and I just shook my head. I wanted to say, "Uh, wait a minute, that's not what she's saying at all!!"

Hang in there. We have a great guy running for President, and the next couple of weeks are going to be very interesting for him and for us. Here's to a strong showing in NH, then look out for Clark in early February!
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'll give it a try
I don't believe I have ever opened a negative thread against any candidate, but I have gone negative in response to posts within attack threads against Clark.

I'll give it another try, I should say.
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hope42mro Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. We need to practice refuting lies now, Rove's will be more tricky
I think it would be better to hear all the negatives about Clark now so we can clear them as soon as possible. As Democrats we need to become adept debaters and we need to learn how to refute distortions of the truth quickly. Gore lost because the Right and the Gullible Media spread so many rumors about him, and they'll apply the same approach to our nominee this year too. So let us practice eloquent rebuttals to "drive-by-lying", let us demand sources to baseless claims, and let us remember heresy is easier to repeat than to prove, so don't buy into it.
I do agree with "boxster" that we should attempt to emulate Clark. Follow his example of focusing on Bush, and speak more about the positive than the negative. After all, Americans are generally happy optimistic people who respond more to hope and promise than pessimism and anger.
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I don't have a problem with people bringing up issues.
My problem is with the one-line, drive-by, hit-and-run comments like, "Clark is a Republican". There really isn't any point in responding to those, as I doubt that those comments will really influence anyone anyway. In the past, I have found myself getting into pointless arguments on these issues, and it's an incredible waste of time.

I do certainly agree, however, that we need to prepare for Rove and the "real" attacks. The ability of the Rove machine to churn up the garbage first struck me after they demolished McCain in South Carolina and then slandered Max Cleland in 2002. They are capable of anything, and we certainly need to build up a response system to deal with that.
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Loren645 Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm putting most inflammatory threads on ignore.
Clark is a great role model.
I'm proud to have a candidate that's above the fray, not
down and dirty.
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funky_bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. I use the iggy button
when I recognize that the poster is not a genuine seeker of information, and has obviously formed one of two opinions:

1.) Spread "hate Clark" propeganda at every given moment

2.) AB_ (insert candidate here), NB_ (insert candidate here)

Anyone who isn't concerned with getting Bush the Lesser out of office has no opinion which I will find enlightening, or useful.

Anyone who isn't willing to look at ALL the candidates with an open mind also has no opinion which I will find enlightening, or useful.

You can catch more flies with honey, but fly-bys are aren't going to work with this voter.
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Crewleader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
18. Hi friends
Just wanted to express how lucky we are to have a man like General Wesley Clark accept the Draft to run for President and a fine one he will be. He will bring honor to the oval office and respect around the world and fight for peace and prosperity for all!

Nice to know such Great Clark Supporters! :hi:

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aquanut Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. Counter with facts, not attacks
Wes Clark: Fighting for the Democratic Party

· Military personnel – General Clark spent 34 years as active duty military personnel, and was therefore unable to be overtly political. He was not a registered Republican and during the Cold War generally voted for the candidate he believed would be the strongest on national defense. And being a "Reagan Democrat" was not a rare phenomenon - that's how Reagan won the White House. Also, 97% of Arkansas voters are not affiliated with a political party.

· Changing times – With the end of the Cold War, he rightly believed that we were moving into a new era that would require a different approach to international relations and domestic issues, and he voted for Clinton in 1992 and 1996 and for Gore in 2000.

· Happy Democrat – Wes Clark has said that when he was deciding whether to run for President, he took stock of his stand on various issues. He agreed with the Democrats' position across the spectrum of issues - he is pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, pro-multilateral international approach, etc. He has said, "I was either going to be a happy Democrat or the loneliest Republican in the world."

· A “Democrat’s Democrat” – Wes Clark was just endorsed by both Michael Moore and George McGovern, who called him a “Democrat’s Democrat.” McGovern said, "I've been around the political block--and I can tell you, I know a true progressive when I see one. That's why he has my vote.”

· Big tent – It all boils down to this - General Clark is not a yes-man. He thinks for himself and does what he believes is right. He also believes that we need to bring this country together after Bush's polarizing tenure, and he is the only candidate who can get Republican and Independent votes to defeat Bush.


Wes Clark’s Democratic activities:

· Campaigned for Democrats in 2002 – Katrina Swett, Erskine Bowles and Max Cleland. He also donated money to Erskine Bowles’ Senate campaign

· Voted in the 2002 Arkansas Democratic primary

· Did a Democratic fundraiser in Arkansas in 2001.

· Numerous Democrats have endorsed the Clark candidacy and volunteered their time and money.

· Bill Clinton called Wes Clark “one of two rising stars in the Democratic party.”


Wes Clark: Consistent Opposition to the War in Iraq

These are just a few quotes from General Clark’s commentary on going to war in Iraq:

· February 15, 2002: “I think what comes out of it is if we're going to go into this operation in the future, we've got to be sure before we undertake it that we can go all the way, not only to Baghdad, not only Saddam Hussein, but to know what happens next, to make sure we have our allies and supporters lined up so that there's not chaos and slaughter in Baghdad or in the south or in the Kurdistan areas after we complete the military phase of the operation.”

· August 29, 2002: “hat you're going to have is you're going to have more boiling in the street. You're going to have deeper anger and you're going to feed the recruitment efforts of Al Qaeda. And this is the key point, I think, that we're at here. The question is what's the greater threat? Three thousand dead in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon underscore the fact that the threat we're facing primarily is Al Qaeda. We have to work the Iraq problem around dealing with Al Qaeda. And the key thing about dealing with Al Qaeda is, we can't win that war alone.”

· August 29, 2002: “My perspective would be I'd like to see us slow down the rush to go after Saddam Hussein unless there's some clear convincing evidence that we haven't had shared with the public that he's right on the verge of getting nuclear weapons.”

· August 30, 2002: “Going after Iraq right now is at best a diversion, and at worst it risks the possibility of strengthening Al Qaeda and undercutting our coalition at a critical time. So at the strategic level, I think we have to keep our eye on the ball and focus on the number one strategic priority. There are a lot of other concerns as well, but that's the main one.”

· August 30, 2002: “I think it's a serious problem with Saddam Hussein. I think he should be held to his pledge to give up his weapons of mass destruction, but we need to do so in the right context, and that context is adherence to full weight of international law, bringing our coalition partner all along with us, perhaps taking it to NATO, and putting a united front together to press Saddam Hussein.”

· August 30, 2002: “It seems that this would supercharge the opinion, not necessarily of the elites in the Arab world, who may bow to the inevitability of the United States and its power, but the radical groups in the Middle East, who are looking for reasons and gaining more recruits every time the United States makes a unilateral move by force. They will gain strength from something like this. We can well end up in Iraq with thousands of military forces tied down, and a worse problem in coping with a war on terror here in the United States or Europe, or elsewhere around the world.”

September 16, 2002: Regarding possible Congressional authorization to use force in Iraq, Clark said, “Don't give a blank check. Don't just say, you are authorized to use force. Say what the objectives are. Say what the limitations are, say what the constraints and restraints are. What is it that we, the United States of America, hope to accomplish in this operation?”

September 23, 2002: “When you're talking about American men and women going and facing the risk we've been talking about this afternoon... you want to be sure that you're using force and expending American blood and lives in treasure as the ultimate last resort. Not because of a sense of impatience with the arcane ways of international institutions.”

September 25, 2002: “If we go in there, this government will be displaced, and there will be a new government put in place. But what about the humanitarian issues? What about the economic development? What about the energy? What about the opening of commerce? What about tariffs? What about taxes? What about police? What about public order? All those issues, we should be working on now, because they will help us do a better job of reducing the adverse, potentially adverse, impact of the war on terror if we have to do what we might have to do?”

October 5, 2002: “The way the debate has emerged, it's appeared as though to the American people, at least to many that talk to me, as though the administration jumped to the conclusion that it wanted war first and then the diplomacy has followed.”

January 23, 2003: Regarding the case the United States had made for war against Iraq to the United Nations, Clark said, “There are problems with the case that the U.S. is making, because the U.S. hasn't presented publicly the clear, overwhelming sense of urgency to galvanize the world community to immediate military action now.....You need the cover of legitimacy, and afterwards, you're going to need allies and other people to help share the burdens of peacekeeping.”

Stopping a Genocide: Wes Clark’s Character and Integrity

This is an excerpt from “Waiting for the General” by Elizabeth Drew, which appeared in The New York Review of Books on Nov. 20, 2002. It accurately describes the policy differences that General Clark had with Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Hugh Shelton and Secretary of Defense William Cohen. (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16795):

“Clark has been open about the fact that he was hurt when his command was cut short. He offered clues about why he was treated so badly in his first book, Waging Modern War: Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Future of Combat, published in 2001, and recollections of highly placed civilians in the Clinton administration confirm what he wrote. Clark displeased the defense secretary, Bill Cohen, and General Hugh Shelton, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, by arguing strenuously that—contrary to Clinton's decision— the option of using ground troops in Kosovo should remain open. But the problem seems to have gone further back. Some top military leaders objected to the idea of the US military fighting a war for humanitarian reasons. (Clark had also favored military action against the genocide in Rwanda.)

Clark's view on Kosovo, shared by Tony Blair and other European leaders, was that Clinton, by stating that ground troops would not be used there —a position Clinton took for domestic political reasons—gave the Serbs a military advantage. Similarly, Clark wasn't allowed to use helicopter gunships for fear that they might be shot down, despite the fact that the helicopters didn't need to fly over Kosovo itself and the helicopters' missiles could have been more precise in hitting targets than bombers flying at 15,000 feet. The argument over whether there should be even contingency planning for the use of NATO ground troops in Kosovo (at the time, it appeared that they would have to fight their way in) caused a serious clash between Clinton and Blair, particularly when they met in April 1999 at the White House residence on the eve of a NATO summit. Clinton's national security adviser, Samuel Berger, argued strongly against contingency planning for ground troops. It would, he said, be controversial domestically and might imply that the air war wasn't working. It was clear that Clinton, who remained largely silent, fully agreed with Berger. A close Clinton associate has told me that "to this day" Clinton regrets that he removed the option of ground troops.

According to three former Clinton aides, when Clinton approved the list of appointments submitted to him by Cohen, including the selection of General Joseph W. Ralston as the new commander of the NATO forces, it wasn't made clear to the President that this would cut Clark's term as the supreme commander by nearly three months. (Of this, Clinton later said at a press conference in Europe, "I had nothing to do with it.") Despite having been treated badly, Clark continued to serve for the following nine months. Clinton was reportedly furious when he realized the mistake that had been made, but he didn't want to go back on it lest he look indecisive, or further alienate military officials, with whom he had been on bad terms since the beginning of his presidency.”

Wes Clark’s Private Sector Business Activities

· 34 years of financial sacrifice – General Clark spent 34 years in the military earning considerably less than he could have earned in the private sector. A man of his intellect and talent could have left the military after being wounded in Vietnam and gone on to a lucrative career, like so many of his peers did. Instead, he stuck with it and served his country brilliantly. To attack him earning some money in the private sector after he retired is just absurd.

· No conflicts of interest – General Clark resigned from the boards of directors on which he had been serving as soon as he announced his candidacy.

· Full disclosure – Wes Clark has fully disclosed his financial records and business dealings since he was in the military, and in fact has made the records publicly available in a “Reading Room” that has been set up at the Sheraton Four Points in Manchester. Wes Clark is committed to open government, and is the only candidate to have an openness in government policy. As President, Wes Clark would reverse the Bush secrecy policy, and restore a government where the public's right to know comes before the President's right to keep politically inconvenient secrets.

· Axciom – General Clark was on the board of Axciom, which developed a database system to identify high risk passengers and prevent them from boarding plans. Wes Clark felt compelled to get involved in this area after Sept. 11 (he only accepted the job after Sept. 11) to help make the country safer, and he made sure that Acxiom incorporated privacy protections into its work.

· Mainly media and business work – Lobbying was a small slice of the work Wes Clark did after the military. He started his own non-profit organization, Leadership for America. He worked in an investment banking firm in Little Rock (Stephens, Inc.) and as a military analyst on CNN. He also served on the board of directors for WaveCrest. As Esquire magazine reported in August, WaveCrest “is developing highly efficient electric motors for applications in the military and possibly in hydrogen-fueled automobiles. The general like working for WaveCrest because WaveCrest is about the future, and so, as it happens, is the general.” (http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2003/030801_mfe_clark_5.html)
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Great post! This should be a reference for all of us.
:)
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RandomUser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Very nice
Thank you for posting this. I'm bookmarking it.
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tameszu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. Good call!
You should post this to the CCN.
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