Moderate Dems are not DINOS, cuz they only concede a few issues...

[Guaranteed]

Right?

So, can someone show me an issue that not ONE Democrat conceded on?

Apparently there's at least ONE of these issues out there- hell, for your argument to be legitimate, it oughta be above 50% of the time that none of them concede, right? At least half of our issues, as Democrats, oughta be worth every one of them standing up for.

So, which issue?

Foreign policy? Abortion? Tax cuts? Gay rights? Health care? Civil rights?

What is it?

[LynneSin]

1. Pretty much a DINO is anyone who disagrees with yours/mine own personal...

opinion on everything!

:eyes:

[Guaranteed]

3. There are those here that are saying that the "moderate" Dems aren't DINOs

because they don't vote against us ALL the time. This is basically the same thing as saying that even moderate Democrats don't betray our CORE values, as Democrats. While they may not agree with us ALL the time, they are at least with us for the REALLY IMPORTANT stuff, right?

So what is that? What's this important stuff that they haven't backed down on?

[LynneSin]

5. There are folks here already calling Obama a DINO cause he voted for Rice

which personally, I didn't give 2 hoots about that vote since we would have a dumbass as SoS no matter how we voted.

Seriously, we need to worry about the big fights. Condi Rice is small potatoes in this regime

[Guaranteed]

7. People are being very cautious about Obama because he's

coming into the national spotlight at a time when being cowardly seems to be the "prudent" thing for Dems to do. There was a lot of talk about Obama being a "rising star" before we even saw anything good come out of him.

People are right to keep an eye on him, especially since as a freshman Senator he's going to be taking his cues from the veterans.

It's just the "Where's the beef?" argument.

[itzamirakul]

10. I've been trying to find out the answer to that question for quite awhile

also. Just WHAT core values will moderate Democrats NOT concede? Where do they stop making concessions? Do they really just "go along to get along?" What differences do they see between their own political beliefs and those of the Republicans?

I haven't gotten an answer to these questions yet, either...The only thing I know for sure about the centrist Democrats is that

1. They are not Michael Moore Democrats
2. Their leadership of the Party has caused us to lose more seats in the House than ever before.
3. They do not want the Democrats to use the same dirty tactics that the Republicans are using and WINNING WITH.

I would love for them to tell us what issues they will stand with to the very end.

[Guaranteed]

11. Great post. nt

[Tigress DEM]

30. As the left moves farther left...

I get a little confused.

As far as all the labels out there, I guess I think I'm a centrist because although I am PRO-Choice I believe in dialogue with the PRO-Life people and finding some way to help kids not need abortions in the first place. I'd like to see them provide some support that isn't "just say 'abstinence' little girl."

What I hear from the far left is, "fuck em" and I don't want to be identified as a cretin with a limited vocabulary.

I also take the centrist label because I think people on welfare aren't helped by the system and there should be some way they can work their way off without getting cut off at the knees whenever they try to do something for themselves.

I guess I think the far left says, "Give everything they need" and maybe that's just my misperception.

I appreciate the progressive viewpoint, and yet I also see some points on the right - not that I want to live under their rules, I just don't think it's terrible if they want to live that way.

I would like to see them (the right) vote smarter though.

I don't think we should have gone to war under the lies we were told, but if there really had been WMD's, they were in the hands of someone who would have used them. Even so, I think the UN was doing it's job, could have added more heat and done the same thing w/o killing innocent people in Iraq.

Still since I am not completely against war, I thought that made me more of a moderate.

[Guaranteed]

33. You think Saddam would have used some

kind of biological or chemical weapons against us?

[dsc]

2. I think you would be hard pressed to find even one elected Democrat

who didn't vote for or support the 1991 Civil Rights Act. I also think that you would be hard pressed to find any Senator who bucked Clinton's appointees except Guineer and his first AG nominee.

[Guaranteed]

4. That's too long ago- that was back when we had power

and the urge to act cowardly wasn't nearly as strong.

Still, I'd like to see the numbers on the bill you brought up.

[eallen]

9. Clinton folded on Lani Guanier for no good reason...

Her big flaw was that she had written some papers urging proportional representation voting mechanics. The right twisted that into something it wasn't, and Clinton, instead of standing up for his appointee, left her to the wolves.

[Vincardog]

6. Leave Social Security ALONE get your thieving hands out of my retirement

The thought of repaying the Insurance Funds scars the hell out of W.

[Guaranteed]

8. That had BETTER be one.

It had REALLY better be.

Will it, though?

[Warpy]

12. They're DINOs if they

think they can address the healthcare mess by leaving the insurance giants in the catbird seat and not reining in the profiteering by drug companies.

If they think they can sell social programs to Americans in place of sound economic policies that benefit working people.

If they think they can maintain the present tax structure which puts the major burden of government onto the backs of working people while giving the rich and the corporate a nearly free ride.

If they think the Pentagon should continue to be funded at levels that enable them to fill warehouses and mothball yards with all the equipment they'll need to stop the Soviets at the Fulda Gap while they maintain bases in a majority of the nations on earth.

If they think the US military should be spread worldwide to put down any foreign government hostile to the interests of multinational corporations while neglecting to demand those corporations pay for the privilege through taxes.

If they think corporations can continue to outsource American industry and maintain this country as their primary market, or if they can outsource American industry without significantly weakening this country's strategic position in the long run.

If they think peak oil can be addressed without investing in long term research and development of all alternative and renewable energy sources, especially for agriculture.

Don't kid yourself. Business as usual Democrats are not centrists, they're DINOs. Until and unless they drop all those positions outlined above, they'll continue to lose elections, and they will deserve it.

[Guaranteed]

13. Nice post.

I really just want an answer to my question, though.

I want to know what that one thing is that brings us all together as Democrats. That one thing that we ALL agree on, that one thing that we'll all fight to the end for, or else lose our identity entirely.

Still waiting, status-quo defenders.

[Warpy]

14. It's not one issue

However, taking economic justice for working people off the table in the 1970s was the stupidest thing they ever did. Clinton put the issue back out there in 1992, and it was enough to get him elected, even if he didn't govern that way.

There is no defining issue. I'm sorry, but life is complicated and so are political parties. What I outlined is what needs to be done. If that party is smart, they will listen. If not, they will continue to lose.

[Guaranteed]

15. The Republicans have their issues that they never vote against.

Don't you think we should too?

Should it perhaps be the opposition to those very same party-line votes?

[dsc]

16. list some

I bet for just about any issue you name I can come up with some Republican who voted the other way.

[Guaranteed]

18. Well, I was looking through the Senate votes, and I gotta say

that the Republicans are all pretty consistent, except for one guy- Chafee.

And, I have to ask- is Chafee REALLY a Republican? LOL

[dsc]

20. I can think of several times McCain has defied Repubicans

Campaign finance, taxes to name two.

[Guaranteed]

21. Yeah, of course. Not everyone is going to vote with the party

on EVERY issue.

[dsc]

22. It should be noted that everyone voting with the party

is the standard you used to start with. So again, list some issues that the Republicans are in lock step with and I'll see if I can find some Republicans who defied them.

[Guaranteed]

24. Like I said, Chafee

is always voting against them- because, in my mind, he's not a Republican.

If you really want an example, though, look at the IWR Senate vote. It's just Chafee voting against it for the Republicans.

It's like that with a bunch of different Senate votes. Apparently he doesn't conform to Republican party values. And then every once in awhile McCain's in there voting against them (less than a quarter of the time, though).

[Warpy]

17. If you want marching in lockstep to rigid ideologues

perhaps it's out of a real longing for what that other party offers.

The left isn't like that, never has been, never will be.

People who want the left to be simple, tidy and rigid are kidding themselves.

[Guaranteed]

19. LOL uh, no.

What I want are some principles that we actually fight for. But that's too much ask, nowadays.

[Tigress DEM]

31. When the middle class disappears we are all lost.

Cool. I'm not a DINO.

One note - in the present filibuster rich environment everyone in the biz has had to vote against something they are for at one time or another.

I think if we got rid of the whole ability to add filibusters we could really see how people vote when they aren't being cohersed.

Well, I do think that even sound economic policies that benefit working people will take time to resolve this huge ecomomic mess, so there probably will still be a need for social programs.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, altough if there is a way for people to get a living wage and support themselves eventually social programs will become what they were intended to be, stop gaps until people are back on their feet.

[Orangepeel]

23. well, you can't count Zell Miller as a Democrat

if you concede that he and Ben Nelson really are DINOs, then all of the rest of them voted to support the judicial fillibusters (except Estrada)

on edit: but, if a particular elected official votes with the Democratic majority on every issue but one, does that make him/her a DINO? Just one issue?

if not, then finding AN issue that ALL of them agree on doesn't mean anything. Theoretically, they could all have one single issue they don't support individually, just spread across the board.

[Guaranteed]

25. If that's the case,

the party doesn't stand for anything.

[Orangepeel]

26. I disagree

I don't see why that makes sense.

Hypothetically, say 95% of Democratic elected officials support reproductive rights, 95% support anti-discrimination laws, 95% support saving social security, 95% support stronger environmental protections, 95% support sensible judicial nominees, 95% oppose tax breaks for the wealthy at the expense of working families, etc.

If it is always the same 5%, then those 5% would be DINOS. However, there is another explanation. What if it switches and that 5% is made up of different elected officials, so that any particular official takes the non-democratic side on one and only one issue?

Don't they have that flexibility, depending on their personal convictions and the preference of the people they represent, or are they required to vote lockstep on every issue in order to be part of the party?

[Guaranteed]

27. That isn't the case, though.

Even if we take out the 5% DINOs, the only solidarity you can come up with is a political judicial appointee vote.

Where are the issues that are of greatest importance? And my argument keeps getting altered, here- it's not "voting in lockstep on every issue," but there should be SOME issues, at least, in which they do all vote the same way. The issues that are at the core of our party.

[Orangepeel]

28. I disagree that there has to be an issue that all of them support

if the vast majority support an issue -- like those mentioned in my last post -- that's the Democratic position on an issue.

Why in the world would EVERY single Democrat have to support something for it to be core? 99.9% wouldn't be good enough?

[Colorado Blue]

29. Key word: REPRESENT!

The folks in Congress are elected officials who have to answer to their constituants.

Much as we would like to draw an ideological line in the sand, Congresspeople have to answer to folks in many different parts of the country, who have very different concerns and backgrounds.

Thus, a Kennedy/Kerry combo from the Northeast might vote differently than somebody from the Pacific Northwest on certain issues and a congressperson with a largely African American constituancy would be duty-bound to vote according to his people's needs and desires.

For example, in the city where I live most of us are Democrats. However, people from different areas and backgrounds and even races disagree on animal rights and the environment. My man and I are strict vegetarians and support animal rights and environmental causes and his associate at work simply doesn't understand why anybody would bother - as far as he is concerned, animals are for eating, preferably with barbecue sauce.

So that's a problem, and one of growing urgency, I think, as we proceed to murder the planet - reaching Democrats in poor areas where it's hard to make a minimal living, and convincing them that animals and the planet are important.

A much broader point of concensus, I have to believe, would be human rights and socio-economic justice. But I can't help but feel we're being sold out to the mega-corporations. Even Kerry didn't stand up for the folks whose jobs are being "out-sourced" to India and points beyond, beyond saying they needed to get educated for different tasks and that the corporations need to be taxed - with which I wholeheartedly agree. But, it isn't enough -

Indeed, I question whether it's still possible for individuals and small businesses to survive today in America. To me, that's a really key issue - America was NOT built on corporate power, but upon the creativity of its dreamers and the sweat of its workers - and those commodities - creativity and sweat - are completely undervalued in the "ownership society" - in fact, with labor being exported and creativity being stifled at all levels by the Walmart model, what ARE we supposed to do?

I was glad to see the essay by Marx posted on the board. It's time to revisit his theories. Our economy CAN work for us but we need to start thinking creatively - all of us.

Thanks.

[Tigress DEM]

34. Maybe it's a question of degree.

Obviously being a vegan and total conservation is an ideal.

Unfortunately, I am not at that end of the spectrum although I admire someone who makes that committment.

However, I think regulation that keeps dangerous bacteria out of the food supply and raw sewage out of our water is something every DEM can get behind.

I used to drink whole milk and I bounced down 2% mixed with whole to 2% to 1% and now skim.

I still want human rights to come before animal rights. I want to see anti-Hate crime legislation and civil unions to protect gay rights even if we can't go all the way and get repubs to accept gay marriage. I'd rather drop the marriage issue IF we could get consensus that it's a CRIME to kill, terrorize or stalk someone because of their sexual orientation and that people should be able to choose who they make their home with and insure through their work.

I believe in energy conservation instead of drilling in Alaska but I haven't bought that hybrid yet and I don't carpool enough.

[IndianaGreen]

32. They may not be DINOs, but they are appeasers and enablers of the regime

and as such they are to be condemned in the strongest terms, and should be held accountable for the crimes they allowed Bush to commit.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Not DINOs. Just the "New" face of the Democratic Party.

Which, unfortunately, looks a lot like the old face of the Republican Party.