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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:14 PM
Original message
Ramsey Clark vs Wesley Clark vs Chomsky. Does this make sense?
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 10:15 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
Both men have camps convinced they are angels or devils. Interesting.
Ramsey has accused Wesley of war crimes similar to the Emperor and Tommy Franks. Some DU-ers see Wesley as the best 'savior' for 2008.

Without calling people kooks and holocaust-deniers, can you reconcile a model of NATO handling Yugoslavia for economics the way Bush** has the middle east?

Please offer real information to back up your stance. This is my opinion from another thread that I thought addressed the reality of power and economics in both NATO and neo-con military actions:
---------------------------------------------------------------
(referring to an IOC link of Ramsey criticising the war crimes trial of Milosevic and Saddam)

Check this out folks, because it isn't a defense of Milosevic or Saddam!

>>IT IS AN INDICTMENT OF NATO FOR DOING TO YUGOSLAVIA WHAT BUSH IS DOING TO SADDAM!!<<

Get it? We know the scam of supporting Saddam, weakening him,knocking him off by playing White Hat Rescue Jesus just to take economic control of the region, RIGHT?? RIGHT??!!

And we are NOT Saddam supporters, for gawds sake!

Read this and you will also get a different view of Wesley Clark for his role. Understand that the Geneva Conventions outlaw destroying civilians and civilian infrastructure, especially with depleted uranium weapons, something we all want to see Bush* in the Hague for, right?.

>snip<

""With this trial," said International Action Center (IAC) representative Bill Doares from Amsterdam, "Washington and its NATO allies hopes to pin the guilt for the 10 years of civil war in the Balkans on the Yugoslav leader. The goal of these big powers is to shift the blame for the war they fomented onto the victims, the Serbian people and all the other peoples of Yugoslavia."

>snip<


"Confused about why the U.S. bombed Yugoslavia? That's because you never heard about the hidden agenda behind the dismemberment of this multiethnic country.

Washington and NATO strategists invoked humanitarian principles to justify their war. But they practiced the divide-and-conquer tactics used by empires since the days of imperial Rome.

Behind the façade of concern for self-determination, they sliced away most of the republics of Yugoslavia, one by one, through economic pressure, political threats and, finally, outright warfare.

This book presents evidence gathered by dozens of nongovernmental hearings in 1999 and 2000 that the NATO countries engaged in a decade-long conspiracy to foment war in Yugoslavia in order to split it up.

Now NATO has military bases all over the Balkans, Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Central Asia. They are the Roman legions for Western transnational corporations and Big Oil.

In the 40+ essays presented here, leading anti-war activists and analysts from many countries take up The Hague Tribunal, the occupation of Kosovo, media lies, war crimes and the blatant illegality of NATO aggression. Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark writes on "Blaming the victim."

>snip<

Wars are almost ALWAYS, ALWAYS for economic reasons and Tinoire's citing of the unacceptable treaty NATO offered that demanded 'free-market' economic rape that the IMF, WTO, and White House use to conquer regions seems to be in play here and Ramsey Clark was way ahead of us after seeing it from the inside during the 1960s.

I think Ramsey shows us just what a Trojan Horse Wesley is in the 'Battle of the Clarks.' It took us until recently to realize how much Republican corporateer policy Clinton and other DLC candidates have gotten over on us while we think in terms of Dem or Repub.

This fascist neo-con-type shit has been going on for decades, people!
Read 'Confessions of an Economic Hit Man' by John Perkins. This goes back to the 1940s and 1950s with the current players and back to the 18th century in American history.

We're being played by a good cop/bad cop routine on each side.
Chomsky is right about how long the American power structure has been consistently pschopathically AMORAL.

It is about power, not ideology. Power protects itself like any other organism in nature. That's why the American government has been genocidal for 200 years, not just all of a sudden!

Read Chomsky's 'Understanding Power' and learn why Ramsey Clark and so many others see the poverty and blood behind the flag every time.

That's a truth even some liberals can't handle. Tough. Disabuse your illusions and join those who aren't invested in fantasy.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sorry.
Much as I agree that war is an abomination, Clinton's intervention in Yugoslavia was a regrettable necessity. Tito pasted Yugoslavia together out of different small ethnic and national groups after World War II. Over time, and with the loss of Tito's leadership, the paste simply dissolved.

I roomed with a Serb and a Croatian in college, traveled in Yugoslavia in the 1960s and lived in a neighboring country in the 1970s and 1980s and am familiar with the animosities of the groups in Yugoslavia. It just never really was one country. Had the United States allowed the hostilities in Yugoslavia to fester, they would have spilled over into bordering nations and resulted in even more bloodshed than they did.

As for what Clark did during that conflict. War is Hell. Good people do bad things in wars. That is an eternal truth. I believe that had we not intervened, the killing and destruction would have been even worse.
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I've traveled the United States
the country has never really been one country. There was even a brutal civil war, where half the states wanted to leave the union and the other half didn't let them. Even now half the country votes for imperialism, while the other half doesn't.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
85. Divide and Conquer.
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 03:29 AM by Carolab
Ancient devise of war. Foment internal strife.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. There were no Mass Graves. Just as there were no WMDs
I hate to post 2 Michael Parentis in a row when there are many others, to include Chomsky, who have spoken out against this. If the scenario seems so familiar to what happened in Iraq, never forget that the war against Yugoslavia was step 2 of the PNAC wars (GW1 was step 1)- see PNAC letter and signatories at end of post; also see the names of the same neo-cons on the Balkan's Action Comittee. The scenarios are similar for a reason- it's the same lies & liars.

People like Noam Chomsky, Harold Pinter, Dr Jan Oberg understood and warned that what we did during the Kosovo conflict was laying a dangerous precedent that made the invasion of Iraq possible.

Just as for Iraq, the war against Yugoslavia had NO Congressional support and NO UN authorization.

The Rational Destruction of Yugoslavia

November 1999

(snip)

More Atrocity Stories

Atrocities (murders and rapes) occur in every war, which is not to condone them. Indeed, murders and rapes occur in many peacetime communities. What the media propaganda campaign against Yugoslavia charged was that atrocities were conducted on a mass genocidal scale. Such charges were used to justify the murderous aerial assault by NATO forces.

(snip)

http://michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

====

(snip)

The Disappearing "Mass Graves"

After NATO forces occupied Kosovo, the stories about mass atrocities continued fortissimo. The Washington Post reported that 350 ethnic Albanians "might be buried in mass graves" around a mountain village in western Kosovo. They "might be" or they might not be. These estimates were based on sources that NATO officials refused to identify. Getting down to specifics, the article mentions "four decomposing bodies" discovered near a large ash heap. 15

It was repeatedly announced in the first days of the NATO occupation that 10,000 Albanians had been killed (down from the 100, 000 and even 500,000 Albanian men supposedly executed during the war). No evidence was ever offered to support the 10,000 figure, nor even to explain how it was arrived at so swiftly and surely while NATO troops were still moving into place and did not occupy but small portions of the province.

Likewise, repeatedly unsubstantiated references to "mass graves", each purportedly filled with hundreds or even thousands of Albanian victims also failed to materialize. Through the summer of 1999, the media hype about mass graves devolved into an occasional unspecified reference. The few sites actually unearthed offered up as many as a dozen bodies or sometimes twice that number, but with no certain evidence regarding causes of death or even the nationality of victims. In some cases there was reason to believe the victims were Serbs. 16

(snip / the number keeps diminishing)

Thus, in mid-June, the FBI sent a team to investigate two of the sites listed in the war-crimes indictment against Slobodan Milosevic, one purportedly containing six victims and the other twenty. The team lugged 107, 000 pounds of equipmentinto Kosovo to handle what was called the "largest crime scene in the FBI's forensic history", but it came up with no reports about mass graves. Not long after, on July 1, the FBI team returned home, oddly with not a word to say about their investigation.

(snip)

Forensic experts from other NATO countries had similar experiences. A Spanish forensic team, for instance, was told to prepare for at least 2,000 autopsies, but found only 187 bodies, usually buried in individual graves, and showing no signs of massacre or torture. Most seemed to have been killed by mortar shells and firearms. One Spanish forensic expert, Emilio Perez Puhola, acknowledged that his team did not find one mass grave. He dismissed the widely publicized references about mass graves as being part of the "machinery of war propaganda."

(snip)

Michael Parenti:
The Media and their Atrocities
http://www.michaelparenti.org/MediaAtrocities.html


===
Serbian television has been showing a video report from the Kosovo village of Izbica, where Nato recently reported sighting a newly-dug mass grave.

The TV correspondent spoke to two local Kosovo-Albanians who denied that there were any such graves, and one of whom angrily condemned the "lies" of the American TV company, CNN.

The reporter said that the village was so small and remote that Nato had deliberately picked it out for a false report, in the belief that no-one would travel there to verify its claims.

The reporter argued that Nato's report of up to 150 graves did not tally with the village's population of only 70 people.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/monitoring/324403.stm

==

(snip)

NO MASS GRAVES

Just as the weapons of mass destruction have never been found in Iraq, the charge of massacres, mass graves, ethnic cleansing and genocide proved to be an utter fabrication in Kosovo.

Immediately after the war, 20 forensic teams were sent to Kosovo by the International Criminal Court at The Hague from 15 NATO countries, including the U.S.. They dug all summer of 1999 at the very sites where supposed witnesses had reported mass graves.

By October 1999 they reported back to Chief Prosecutor for the Tribunal Carla Del Ponte that they had been unable to find any mass graves in Kosovo at all. They had found a total of 2,108 corpses in individual graves. How many of that number may have been killed by the NATO bombing they did not speculate.

All of this material, including the reports of NATO destruction of Yugoslav cities and the Tribunal's own forensic teams' inability to find mass graves, was to be part of Milosevic's rebuttal. The attempt to remove Milosevic as his own attorney is an admission that President Milosevic is not guilty of the war-crimes charges. It adds to the U.S. and NATO guilt in planning, executing and carrying out a 10-year war that broke up a strong and successful Yugoslav Federation into a half- dozen weak colonies and neo-colonies subservient to U.S. and Western European imperialism.

The breakup of the Yugoslav Federation meant that the many industries of Yugoslavia, including steel, auto, pharmaceuticals, chemical plants, railroads, mines, refining and processing, that had previously been owned by the whole population or by the workers in those plants have been forcibly privatized. U.S., British and German corporations now own them. Social programs, pension funds, free education and free health care have been decimated. It is this history of the crime of occupation that NATO's court is trying to silence by depriving Yugoslav President Milosevic of his right to present his own defense.

http://www.iacenter.org/milos_0904.htm

===

Title: Del Ponte fails to discover mass graves in Kosovo

Original location: http://www.tanjug.co.yu/Arhiva/1999/Nov%20-%2099/11-11e03.html


NEW YORK — Chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague Carla Del Ponte said Wednesday that she had received a large number of reports calling for establishing facts about the crimes that NATO committed while bombing Yugoslavia.

Asked by a Boston Globe reporter at a news conference held at the United Nations’ New York headquarters whether the tribunal planned to establish the truth about the crimes committed by NATO in Yugoslavia, Del Ponte said that she was carefully analysing the reports but that she could not say anything at this point.

She said she would decide whether there were grounds to launch an investigation against the alliance or not. She refused to further comment on the matter, despite a Yugoslav reporter’s remark that the killing of more than 1,000 civilians during NATO’s bombing of Yugoslavia should be a good enough reason for the tribunal to launch an investigation against the alliance.

Del Ponte, who reported to the Security Council on alleged mass graves in the Yugoslav republic of Serbia’s Kosovo and Metohija province on Wednesday, evidently did not want to condemn NATO.

What Del Ponte reiterated at the news conference clearly indicates that there are no mass graves with bodies of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. She said that a large number of bodies had not been found in any single location.

(snip)

http://agitprop.org.au/stopnato/1999111209.php

===

Case in point. On 6 August 1998, the Washington Times featured "stringer" Philip Smucker's exclusive front page headline read: "Kosovar bodies bulldozed to dump; Serbs deny massacre, but evidence (not "alleged," or "thought-to-be), but "evidence impossible to avoid of mass graves containing the bodies of 567." He also claimed that at least half of the bodies were those of women and children although, to that point, the alleged bodies had not been exhumed. To further embellish his story, Smucker went on to say, "Stark evidence in the form of freshly turned earth and the overwhelming stench of death has exposed the presence of scores of bodies that were bulldozed into a garbage dump after a Serbian attack against ethnic Albanian rebels who tried to seize this town." Even a photograph accompanied Smucker's article with the caption, "A news photographer shoots a picture of fresh graves – some identified with ethnic Albanian names – in the Kosovar town of Orahovac," (Kosova is the Albanian name given to Kosovo).

However, on the very same day, the Guardian (UK) of 6 August 1998, reported, "European Union (EU) observers found no evidence of mass graves reported in the town of Orahovac, the teams' Austrian leader, Walter Ebenberger, said." In contrast to the front page coverage given to Mr. Smucker's intended shock-attention report on Serb atrocities, the following day the Washington Times carried a small, barely noticeable item hidden on page A15 (World Scene, 7 August 1998), which stated, "NATO Chief (Secretary-General Javier Solana) dismissed mass graves in Kosovo."

In all honesty, does it not bother the editors at the Washington Times that "stringer" Smucker's report of 6 August was a vicious lie? There were no mass graves containing the bodies of 567 ethnic Albanian victims; but there it was, on the front page. I stand in awe of the fact that truth in journalism is what they want it to be, what sells, and that articles by Mr. Smucker required, in the Times' judgment, no documentation, no verification, no responsibility, and apparently were accepted without question. Smucker's was the kind of reporting that played right into Clinton's New World Order scheme and at the same time, helped to prepare the minds of Americans to accept whatever punishment we dished out against the Serbian people, including NATO's 78 days of bombing in an unmerciful, unjust and immoral air war led by the United States. It was this kind of vile reporting that caused so many people to say, "After all, they deserve it!"

(snip)

http://antiwar.com/orig/jatras.php?articleid=1496
=====

The Balkan Action Committee, which surfaced in 1999 to promote the invasion of Yugoslavia, was almost exclusively made up of PNAC members; likewise, the Committee on the Present Danger.

The Balkan Action Committee

Today's NY Times has an ad sponsored by a group calling itself the Balkans
Action Committee
calling for Nato ground forces in Yugoslavia. It is signed
by an odd mixture of neoconservatives and "leftists" including Bianca
Jagger and "Rabbi" Michael Lerner, the portly editor of Tikkun and
erstwhile 1960s radical. Lerner was "spiritual adviser" to the Clintons for
a brief time about 5 years ago, urging "communitarian" values upon the
thuggish Arkansas president and his wife.

They are window-dressing, however. The real forces behind Balkans Action
are the hardline anticommunists who emerged during the Reagan era.
This is
the executive committee, as announced on their website (www.balkanaction.org).

Morton Abramowitz
Saul Bellow
Zbigniew Brzezinski
Richard Burt
Frank Carlucci
Dennis DeConcini
Paula Dobriansky
Geraldine Ferraro
Robert Hunter
Philip Kaiser
Max M. Kampelman
Lane Kirkland
Jeane Kirkpatrick
Peter Kovler
Ron Lehman
John O'Sullivan
Richard Perle
Eugene Rostow
Donald Rumsfeld
Stephen Solarz
Helmut Sonnenfeldt
William Howard Taft
Elie Wiesel
Paul Wolfowitz
Elmo Zumwalt

Except for Geraldine Ferraro, this is basically the same group that made up
the Committee on the Present Danger, which was chaired by the atrocious
Jeane Kirkpatrick and flourished under Reagan. It promoted Star Wars,
intervention in Central America, Afghanistan and Angola and all sorts of
other militantly counterrevolutionary adventures. The point is that the war
in the Balkans is not a "progressive's" war. The most important sector of
reactionary opinion in the United States is represented by this executive
committee and should remind us that the war is a continuation of the
anticommunist crusade launched by Reagan 20 years ago.


Louis Proyect
http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank/nato_kosovo/msg00120.html




Letter to the President on Milosevic, September 20, 1998

September 11, 1998

The Honorable William J. Clinton
President of the United States
Washington, D.C. 20500

Dear Mr. President:

We are writing out of deep concern for the plight of the ethnic Albanian population of Kosovo, many thousands of whom, having been driven from their homes and farms by the latest Serbian offensive, now face the possibility of a winter of starvation. Over 15 percent of the Kosovo population is already homeless. It is inexplicable to us that the West simply watches as this disaster grows daily after watching similar disasters unfold in Bosnia between 1992-95.

Stopping the carnage in Kosovo is essential and requires decisive action by the West. But this will not by itself provide a solution to the continuing Balkan conflict.

Mr. President, the events of recent months, when added to the history of the conflict since 1991, lead to one inescapable conclusion: There can be no peace and stability in the Balkans so long as Slobodan Milosevic remains in power. He started the Balkan conflict, and he continues it in Kosovo. He has caused untold suffering to millions; he has severely damaged his own country. We must face the facts.

We understand that the United States has sought and on occasion achieved Milosevic’s cooperation in carrying out the Dayton settlement; and there is no guarantee that a successor to Milosevic will be significantly more committed to peace. Nevertheless, we believe the time has come for the United States to distance itself from Milosevic and actively support in every way possible his replacement by a democratic government committed to ending ethnic violence. Our “pact with the devil” has outlived whatever usefulness it once had.

At a minimum, the United States should lead an international effort along the following lines:

• First, the humanitarian crisis needs to be addressed urgently. Milosevic must order his police and military forces to stop all violence immediately. However, the crisis cannot be ended without an agreement on a new political status for Kosovo. And that will require massive Western pressure on Milosevic.

• Second, the administration should seek, and the Congress should approve, a substantial increase in funds for supporting the democratic opposition within Serbia.

• Third, the U.S. and its allies must do everything possible to tighten the economic sanctions on Serbia to help undermine Milosevic’s ability to maintain his power in Belgrade.

• Fourth, the administration should cease attempting to strike diplomatic bargains with Milosevic.

• Finally, the U.S. should vigorously support The Hague tribunal’s investigation of Milosevic as a war criminal.

Mr. President, we are under no illusion that the steps we recommend are easy or guarantee success. We are certain, however, that after seven years of aggression and genocide in the Balkans, the removal of Milosevic provides the only genuine possibility of a durable peace. We urge you to act forcefully in this crisis, and we offer you our full support should you do so.

Sincerely,


Morton I. Abramowitz Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage

Nina Bang-Jensen Jeffrey Bergner George Biddle John R. Bolton

Frank Carlucci Eliot Cohen Seth Cropsey Dennis DeConcini

Paula Dobriansky Morton H. Halperin John Heffernan

James R. Hooper Bruce P. Jackson Robert Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad

Lane Kirkland Jeane Kirkpatrick Peter Kovler William Kristol

Mark P. Lagon Richard Perle Peter Rodman Gary Schmitt

Stephen Solarz Helmut Sonnenfeldt William Howard Taft IV

Ed Turner Wayne Owens Paul Wolfowitz Dov S. Zakheim

http://www.newamericancentury.org/kosovomilosevicsep98.htm


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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. No Mass Graves?
Damn, too bad there were not a few hundred thousand dead bodies so that you could be proven wrong.

I know, I know....too bad we didn't do with Kosovo what we did in Rwanda.....WAIT UNTIL THEY ARE ALL DEAD....and then have a war!!

I believe that the Kosovo war was to STOP and PREVENT genocide.....So the fact that ONLY a few thousand bodies were found in the 20% thus far of the suspected gravesites should make all of y'all feel really superior.

First, I want to say that the Right Wing is happy that you have determined that no Genocide occurred in Kosovo....cause that is what they have been saying for quite some time.

Genocide By Mass Starvation;
NATO Strategy Makes Sense On One Level. But, In Humanitarian Terms, It's A Fatal Miscalculation.
Los Angeles Times
April 25, 1999, Sunday, Home Edition

http://www.refugees.org/news/op_eds/042599.htm
President Slobodan Milosevic's ability to stop and start massive refugee flows out of Kosovo is a chilling sign of his power and intent. From the Nazis to the Khmer Rouge, closed borders have been a serious sign that genocide is occurring. Genocide does not require gas chambers or even mass graves. A favored tactic is calculated mass starvation. That is what is happening in Kosovo.

Serb forces used food as a weapon during the war in Bosnia. They rarely engaged in battle, preferring to surround and besiege an area, subject it to shelling and cut it off from food.

Long before the bombing began, Milosevic began a systematic campaign to deplete Kosovo of its food resources. Beginning last summer, Serb forces:

restricted importation of basic items into Kosovo, including wheat, rice, cooking oil, sugar, salt, meat, milk, livestock, heating fuel and gasoline;

looted warehouses and burned fields, haystacks, winter food stocks and firewood.

killed livestock and often dropped their carcasses into wells to contaminate the water;

shot at ethnic Albanian farmers trying to harvest or plant;

Harassed, persecuted and sometimes killed local humanitarian aid workers;

created nearly 300,000 internally displaced people, most of whom stayed with private families, eating what private stores of food they had managed to save.

In the best of times, Kosovo is not a self-sufficient food producer. By early this year, with planting and harvesting brought to a halt and with food stocks consumed or destroyed, there were no food reserves outside Serbian government shops. Most of the population was dependent on humanitarian aid delivered through a network of U.N. agencies and local and international nongovernmental organizations. That network is gone. The International Committee of the Red Cross, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees and the World Food Program are out of Kosovo. International nongovernmental groups have been expelled and are now working with refugees outside Kosovo. Local nongovernment groups have been decimated, their staff members lucky to become refugees themselves.

Before NATO's military objectives can be achieved, Milosevic will already have accomplished his objective: Grinding down Kosovo's 1.8 million ethnic Albanians. One rule of war is this: Men with guns do not starve; civilians do. NATO is not going to beat the Yugoslav military by starving them out, and if it did, the civilians would perish long before them.

As hunger and disease loom, various interim steps have been suggested: internal safe havens, food air drops, humanitarian corridors. Each is flawed, largely because each requires cooperation from Milosevic that in all likelihood will never come to be. Milosevic could achieve his aims simply by dragging his feet.

Everyone is concerned about the lives of NATO servicemen, but the people on the executioner's block cannot wait for a risk-free, soldier-friendly environment for their rescue. They can't wait for the amassing of 200,000 troops, if that will take months of buildup and field support. They can't wait for a "permissive environment."

Mass Graves, Mass Denial (PDF)
http://www.bard.edu/bgia/journal/vol2/63-66.pdf

http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_koso.htm
Did the Serbs commit genocide?
Civilian populations are increasingly being targeted during recent civil wars. However, atrocities must match certain specific criteria before they are considered genocide. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as "certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such. The proscribed acts include killings, causing serious bodily or mental harm, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, forcibly transferring its children to another group, or deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or in part."
Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia during the mid 1990s started as mass expulsions of civilians. It escalated to include internment in concentration camps, mass executions, rapes, etc. There was a clear policy by the Serbs "to exterminate Muslim Bosnians as a group..." Their actions were generally considered to be genocide. There is a general consensus that widespread atrocities were also committed by the Muslims and the Croats (largely Roman Catholic). But the level of their war crimes did not reach genocidal proportions.

There have been allegations that the Serbs were engaged in genocide in Kosovo before and during the NATO bombing. Media correspondents and human rights investigators conducted large-scale interviews of Kosovar refugees. The data collected show that the Geneva Conventions concerning civilians had been ignored and that extremely serious war crimes were perpetrated by the Yugoslavian army, police and militias. There appeared to be a consensus of human rights investigators that the quantity and type of documented atrocities proved that genocide was committed by the Yugoslavian government against the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. This belief was confirmed as the NATO forces occupied Kosovo. Mass graves were located and are being systematically examined by forensic specialists. Ethnic Albainians came out of hiding with horrendous stories to tell. In excess of 11,000 murders were reported to authorities. According to a report by the U.N.'s chief prosecutor in Yugoslavia, Carla Del Ponte, on 1999-NOV-10, 2,108 complete corpses and an unknown but large number of incompete corpses were found. By 1999-NOV, a total of 195 grave sites in Kosovo had been analyzed; another four hundred remained to be investigated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2147781.stm
Mass grave found near Srebrenica
Tuesday, 23 July, 2002, 22:35 GMT 23:35 UK
Forensic experts in Bosnia have discovered a mass grave in the north-east of the country, close to the site of the Srebrenica massacre in 1995. It is thought the grave contains the bodies of Bosnian Muslims killed by Bosnian Serb forces after they captured Srebrenica.

Skeletons 'incomplete'
The grave site was discovered on Monday near the Serb-held village of Kamenica, some 70 kilometres (45 miles) north-east of Sarajevo.

The commission said it had "reliable proof" that the remains were transported to the grave from another location, in order to conceal the remains from war crime investigators.

He said some of the skeletons were incomplete, and that others were found with their hands bound by wire.

More than 7,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed after the fall of Srebrenica, in the worst massacre Europe has seen since World War II.

So far 6,000 bodies have been exhumed from numerous mass graves around the town, but only 300 have been identified.


Bosnian Serb wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and his army chief Ratko Mladic have been implicated in the Srebrenica massacres.


New mass grave found in Kosovo as Milosevic trial nears
Posted: 02/11/2002 11:10 amLast Updated: 2002-02-11 11:58:09-05
Kroni I Mbretit, Yugoslavia - Kosovo villagers have discovered a new mass grave, just two days before former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic goes on trial for engineering genocide in their province.

The remains were uncovered in western Kosovo on Sunday. The remains of up to 20 bodies were found in a shallow grave by children playing in the area.

Several villagers living near the grave will offer testimony in the upcoming trial of Milosevic, which starts tomorrow in the Hague, but their testimony will focus on other events, and not the grave uncovered Sunday.
http://www.wndu.com/news/022002/news_12301.php

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/09/serb.grave/
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia -- Serbian forensic experts have discovered another mass grave near a lake in southwestern Serbia.
The grave is believed to contain bodies of ethnic Albanians killed during the 1999 war in Kosovo

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/11/bosnia.pit/index.html
Bosnia mass grave found
June 11, 2001 Posted: 3:58 AM EDT (0758 GMT)
MOUNT MALUSA, Bosnia -- A mass grave containing bodies of victims of the notorious Foca prison camp has been discovered in Bosnia, Reuters has reported.
Bosnian Muslim officials found the grave hidden deep in a dense forest after receiving a letter signed by "a Serb from Foca," the agency said.




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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. Yep. No mass graves. Clark bombed all those people for nothing
but the "good" thing is that Albright's precious NATO, that hadn't been used in 50 years, was saved, Yugoslavia was forced to open up its economy to NATO's ruinous free-trade demands and all the resources of the Yugoslavian people belong to multinationals.

That's the REAL problem a lot of people have with Bush. It's not the war. It's not the theft. It's how badly he's managing it! THAT's why all the "nuancing to death" on the part of the pro-imperialist Democrats over IWR and pro-war/occupation candidates.

Bill Clinton's war against Yugoslavia was just as obscene and illegal as Bush's war against Iraq. Neither had Congressional approval or UN authorization. Both thumbed their nose at the UN and attacked with their own armies.

Saddaam nationalized the Iraq oil in '78 so what do we do? We fabricate WMDs and we attack!

Milosevic refuses to open up his country to neo-liberal "free market principles" and what do we do? We fabricate mass graves and we attack!

And lo and behold, it's the same nasty group of neo-cons behind the curtains in BOTH instances. Same nasty group. Same lies. Same obscene war to steal a country's resources.

NOT ONE MASS GRAVE. NOT ONE WMD. NOT ONE. Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, BLAIR are LIARS. They've been liars from the beginning and will be liars to the end. And Clinton just stays mum on Iraq. Because he knows the SAME thing happened under his watch of free-market expansion. MUM except to tell us, 2 elections in a row, to "get over it".

After seeing all the death and destruction in Iraq caused by the likes of Perle and Wolfowitz, have you truly no problem with the fact that they were the same men behind the curtain in the war against Yugoslavia? Does it really not bother you that this is when Clark worked with them and thought they were a group of swell guys, his friends and colleagues that he'd work with again? Yeah this is when Clark came up and convinced Clinton that if he just gave him 78 days to bomb the crap out of Yugoslavia he would bring Milosevic to his knees, get that treaty signed so the First World countries could get on with their business of "free market economy".

Dead. Wounded. Terrified human beings. Illegal cluster bombs. Depleted uranium polluting an entire country and its inhabitants.
All for the Free Market but hiding behind a neo-con lie about "mass graves". What an obscenity.

Mass Graves. Weapons of Mass Destruction. What will the next Mass be? These neocons didn't even bother changing their script. People fell for Mass Graves in Yugoslavia- Weapons of Mass Destruction would do just as well for Iraq.

===

"The idea that NATO attacked Yugoslavia to solve a humanitarian crisis is about as credible as Germany's claim in 1939 that it was invading Poland to prevent "Polish atrocities." The United Nations Commissioner for Refugees reported the first registered refugees out of Kosovo on March 27th - three days after the bombing began. Civilian casualties after twenty-one days of bombing exceeded all casualties on both sides in Kosovo in the three months before the war."

In an all out effort to convince public opinion that Yugoslavia deserved the onslaught, Western politicians and media are churning out endless accusations of Serb atrocities, while the proven and infinitely greater atrocities of NATO - launching an aggressive war, using internationally outlawed cluster bombs and firing depleted uranium ammunition into Yugoslavia - are buried.

(snip)

Most 19th century wars were over trade. When the U.S. invaded Canada in 1812, Andrew Jackson declared, "We are going to... vindicate our right to a free trade, and open markets... and to carry the Republican
standard to the Heights of Abraham." In 1839, Britain demanded China
accept its opium and attacked when China said no. When Thailand refused British trading demands in 1849, Britain "found its presumption unbounded" and decided "a better disposed King (be) placed on the throne... and through him, we might, beyond doubt, gain all we desire."

In 1999, NATO said it was attacking Yugoslavia to force it to sign the Rambouillet "peace agreement" (even though the Vienna Convention states that any treaty obtained by force or the threat of force is void).

Significantly, Rambouillet stipulated: "The economy of Kosovo shall
function in accordance with free market principles" and "There shall be no impediments to the free movement of persons, goods, services and
capital to and from Kosovo."


During the war, Bill Clinton elaborated: "If we're going to have a
strong economic relationship that includes our ability to sell around
the world Europe has got to be the key; that's what this Kosovo thing is all about... It's globalism versus tribalism."

http://www.peace.ca/globalismsarticle.htm

---



ON SECOND WORLD WAR I SAVED 15 AMERICAN AIRMEN. NOW GRANDSONS OF THESE AIRMEN ARE DROPPING BOMBS ON MY GRANDSONS. TOGETHER WITH GERMANS SHAME ON YOU AMERICA.

=========

"For globalization to work, America can't be afraid to act like the almighty superpower that it is ... The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist--McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps," Freidman wrote in the March 28 New York Times. http://www.russfound.org/Launch/trigazis.htm
....

"Milosevic is harking back to the political control promised by that old Communist star on his presidency building ...he is revoking some privatization and free-market measures," stated an article in the June 6, 1996, Christian Science Monitor.http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=5001203447

A month later, the July 18, 1996, New York Times complained about Milosevic's determination to "keep state controls and his refusal to allow privatization."
http://www.mediamonitors.net/raymondker7.html

The Aug. 4, 1996, Washington Post carried a piece against Milosevic that was even more explicit. "Milosevic failed to understand the political message of the fall of the Berlin Wall," the Post quotes Konstantin Obradovic, deputy director of the Belgrade Center for Human Rights. He is one of the "democratic opposition" seeking to oust the Yugoslav government.

"While other Communist politicians accepted the Western model, and moved in the direction of the rest of Europe, Milosevic went the other way. That is why we are where we are today."

...

One of the latest statements of the Group 17 says it all: "A new phase in the process of transition to a market economy throughout Central and Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union is beginning." However, "it is extremely well known that this transition in Yugoslavia is practically stopped," the statement complains.

http://www.softmakers.com/fry/docs/becker.htm


===

Captain Adolfo Luis Martin de la Hoz, who returned to Spain end of May
after having participated in the bombings since the beginning, an
"authentic expert for the dreadful F-18", the war plane most often used
in the war strategy of "scorched land" in the Balkans, is very
categoric: "First of all, I want to make it clear that the majority, I
say the majority, of my colleagues, even if not all, are against the war
in general and against this war of barbarity in particular."

(snip)

The suspicions that NATO's repeated bombings of civilian victims and
non-military targets are not the result of war "errors", are confirmed
by Captain Martin de la Hoz: "Several times our Colonel protested by
NATO chiefs why they select targets which are not military targets. They
threw him out with curses saying that we should know that the North
Americans will lodge a complaint by the Spanish Army, once through
Brussel and again by the Defence Minister. But there is more, and I want
to tell it to the whole world: once there was a coded order of the North
American military that we should drop anti-personnel bombs over the
localities of Prishtine and Nish. The colonel refused it altogether
and, a couple of days later, the transfer order came. But what I say now
is nothing compared to what I shall have to say when the time comes."


(snip)

Ever since we arrived in Italy - the Captain goes on - there is no end
to humiliations and insults. The order givers are only the North
American generals, and no one else.
We are zeroes, just as our
replacements are going to be. But there is still more to that. Here they
say that several operations were directed by Spanish commanders and
pilots. Lies over lies. All the missions that we flew, all and each one,
were planned by US high military authorities. Even more, they were all
planned in detail, including attacking planes, targets and type of
ammunition that we have to throw.
We never directed anything, and our
missions were limited to flying over the borders of Macedonia, Albani,
Bosnia and Slovakia."

(snip)

None of the pilots presently stationed at Aviano, who replaced those who
went to the Italian base a little before the start of war, last March
23, were there with clean conscience
, says the Spanish military. "It is
being written to saturation that the disciplined and patriotic Spanish
pilots according to Minister Eduardo Serra - are concentrating on the
complexity of their war missions". But we read so many discrepancies, so
many lies that we agreed to not read a single newspaper until we return.
Our anger is enormous. The President of the Government, the Minister of
Foreign Affaires and the Defence Minister are lying brazenly each time
they talk about the war. Some of us are of another opinion and believe
they do not inform themselves, because the North Americans - the White
House, the Pentagon, the CIA, the Embassy or military information
service, whoever, do not inform them about anything. How should they
inform themselves if our own Javier Solana has not informed himself
since the war broke out? Solana is a puppet who has been put there by
the Yankees to do what they tell him he has to do. And so he does,
standing straight before General Clark when he talks to him, or better
said, when he issues him the orders that he has to implement without
delay."


(snip)

They are destroying the country, bombing it with novel weapons, toxic
nervous gases, surface mines dropped with parachute, bombs containing
uranium, black napalm, sterilization chemicals, sprayings to poison the
crops and weapons of which even we still do not know anything. The North
Americans are committing there one of the biggest barbarities that can
be committed against the humanity.
Much and very bad things will be told
in the future about what was happening there, because, by the way, judging by
what we talked about with the British and German officers, it was designed in
order to divide the Europeans and keep us subjected for many decades.

We could say that we should be satisfied with what this war means
economically for each one of us, but it is not true, what they give us
is the chocolate for the parrots. This war is going to cost the
Spaniards more than all the money allocated for the culture in the last
five years. And how, even if now no one says anything because of the
elections, but it will come in a few months and will be felt in our
pockets. Because this brutal solely Yankees' war, no one's but Yankees',
is going to be paid by all of us. Be sure that what I say is not to
exculpate myself and to intone 'mea culpa' for having participated in
it, because I will never be able to forget that what was being committed
there was one the biggest savageries of history."

www.swans.com/library/art5/zig015.html
http://opinionleaders.htmlplanet.com/spanpilot.html


===

And another interesting quote about yet another factor in this war-saving NATO an obselete alliance that had never been used once in 50 years but that the Pentagon desperately needed to keep alive.
The phrase "the credibility of NATO was at stake" was also used by Blair http://www.tribweb.co.uk/extract11.htm


"When NATO started bombing Yugoslavia in March 1999 it was not for humanitarian reasons but to show who was boss because the credibility of NATO was at stake," Chomsky adds. "Ask any mafia don and he'll tell you. If someone doesn't pay his protection money, you beat them to a pulp so that others will understand. That's credibility, and it's a very significant element in international affairs. Action after action by great powers is taken to protect their credibility and it makes sense. Others have to be afraid of them."

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wldcourt/tribunal/2001/0409chom.htm
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Looks like you keep excellent Company!
Senators who voted against funding President Clinton's bombing of Yugoslavia were: Allard (R-Col.), Bunning (R-Ky.), Burns (R-Mont.), Craig (R-Idaho), Crapo (R-Idaho), Enzi (R-Wyo.), Fitzgerald (R-Ill.), Gramm (R-Tex.), Grassley (R-Iowa), Gregg (R- N.H.), Helms (R-N.C.), Hutchinson (R-Ark.), Inhofe (R-Okl.), Nickles (R-Okla.), Santorum (R-Penn.), Sessions (R-Ala.), Thurmond (R-S.C.), and Voinovich (R-Ohio).

My, my....look at all of those NICE Republicans against the Financing of the Kosovo War. these are apparently the worst of the lot. When I saw Sessions, Thurman, Nickles and Gramm voting for anything, I ran the other way.

But why would they? Since it was all a plan to colonialize the finances of Kosovo?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Sorry. So did Democrats. Kucinich was livid about it
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 07:07 AM by Tinoire
But... better that company than trying to whitewash a dirty war or convince people that the School of the Americas is a "good thing" simply because I was stuck on getting a handsome lobbyist general into the White House.

The total disconnect you exhibit about the horrors and immorality of war is glaring.

General Clark's war? Good! Never mind that it was the same neocons behind it who lied us into this one too.

Bush's war? Bad! Never mind that in the General's own recent words, its his respected, well-liked friends and colleagues who are waging it.

What a charade. General Clark went from fighting Clinton's aides to continue that war even when they were begging him to drop it in order not to jeopardize Gore's campaign, to recently drawing up the plans for the occupation of Iraq, and went into orgiastic ecstasy while cheering it on for CNN and his most ardent fan is going to defend those obscenities through thick and thin.

Am I surprised? Not at all.

Am I disgusted. Yes. Very much so which is why I rarely waste time on these apologetic posts anymore. But when Ramsey Clark and ANSWER, the loudest antiwar voice out there, are attacked by Clark supporters because Ramsey indicted Wes Clark as a war criminal and ANSWER protestors have consistently denounced the war against Yugoslavia, I refuse to ignore these attacks.

I don't want this war to go on and that's one of my main focuses here-which is why I won't sit by quietly as some try to interfere with ANSWER's antiwar voice or Ramsey Clark's fight for justice quite apparently because they could be an impediment to Wes Clark's 2008 Presidential aspirations.
===

KUCINICH: The message is now I will not vote for the $87 billion. I think we should support the troops and I think we best support them by bringing them home.

Our troops are at peril there, because of this administration's policy. And I think that the American people deserve to know where every candidate on this stage stands on this issue, because we were each provided with a document--a security document that more or less advised us to stay the course, don't cut and run, commit up to 150,000 troops for five years at a cost of up to $245 billion.

A matter of fact, General Clark was one of the authors of that document that was released in July.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A433-2003Sep25¬Found=true
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
76. Ever heard of something called genocide?
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 09:59 PM by Clarkie1
We have different moral values.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #76
101. The genocide was perpetrated by the Albanians of Kosovo
against the Serb, Jewish and Rom minorities.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #101
123. As a million of them fled their homes, you are a riot.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #123
130. That didn't happen until the NATO bombing
Check your chronology. The current situation is that the Albanians have succeeded in driving out most of the other minorities.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #130
133. I don't think that is right, see post 126 and article
In there, Clinton puts it at a quarter million prior to the bombing. And Serb troops streaming in at the same time. The standoff with NATO was over what, 10 months I think. I looked that up after my post above. But still, the Serbs were on a mission to clear em out before NATO could stop them.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. I should believe Clinton?
Why is his rationale worth any more than the Bush assertion that Iraq had WMD?

Serb troops were pulling an Ariel Sharon move like Israel continues to do on the West Bank. That those actions were brutal and counterproductive does not mean that Israel or Serbia did not and/or do not have legitimate security concerns. Ethnic warfare had claimed about 2,000 so far. The real killing commenced with the NATO invasion.

Clinton said the Yugoslav leader violated commitments he made last fall to "stop the brutal repression in Kosovo," where ethnic Albanians are fighting for independence, and continued to send military units into the southern province.

Ethnic Albanians are fighting for independence = ethnic cleansers working hard at getting rid of their Serb, Jewish and Rom minorities. Thanks to Clinton, they have mainly succeeded, just like the Croats cleansed the Krajina.

And why didn't Clinton have any objection to the successful ethnic cleansing of the Krajina by Croatia? How did that differ from the Kosovo situation?

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. Quick answers off the top of my head
Well, please tell me one lie (having to do with public policy statements) that Clinton ever told and then I would understand you not trusting him, otherwise I really can't.

My recollection on the whole thing was that it did take time for both our country and the other NATO members to get motivated for taking on Milosevic. I am sure the Croatia incident was one of the motivating factors. Again, I never said the Serbs were the only ones committing horrendous murders. But they were the ones with large military and heavy artillery etc that they were using to carry out their part of it.

Oh, you wnat me to look up what Clinton had to say about it? Maybe if I have time later, or you could find it yourself.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. The Croatia incident was carried out with aid from US mercenaries
Given that Clinton aided and abetted the Krajina ethnic cleansing, the crocodile tears over a possible recurrence of something similar in Kosovo seem fake. Particularly when one of his conditions for avoiding war was that the Serbs sell off all their state assets to foreign private ownership. The italics in the previous post are what Clinton said from the CNN article you posted.

My reasons for not trusting Clinton are his shafting of American living standards with NAFTA and WTO and welfare 'reform.' So it isn't a huge surprise that he would order the destruction of factories the Serbs refused to sell off. The 2/3 of Parliament who opposed the Milosevic policies on Kosovo damned well weren't going to put up with unhindered NATO presence anywhere in Serbia, or the demand to sell off their factories.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #137
139. See this is the problem
We both distrust the others sources of info. You haven't given any evidence Clinton lied of course. You just didn't like his policies. He was the President of my country (and yours I assume?) for eight years. I challenge you to present one lie backed by evidence, and I don't consider his personal life as part of the scope.

Can you tell me what led you to trust your sources? I am a middle aged life long democrat, not terribly active but always interested in getting democrats elected. In my life I have no points of reference to trust Chomsky when he claims my country and the President we are talking about has done some terrible deeds that we should all be ashamed of and it is not the mainstream view of even our party or the other major party I would add. Chomsky would have to be an unimpeachable source to carry that much weight.

I doubt that Clinton could have stopped the earlier incidents in the Balkans. Takes time to build consensus between states to intervene militarily. But you are free to believe otherwise.

As to this big problem with the selling off of Serbian assets, I am not Serbias banker. Why couldn't they broker a deal for themselves that was acceptable? I really don't understand why you have to make a conspiracy out of it. Countries with economic problems and civil wars (at the same time) are not safe investments. So in return for loans it is completely reasonable in my mind that the debtor country must accept certain reforms that would be geared to stabilizing the country and paying the loans back sometime in the future. The loaner is generally the one to make those determinations, not the loanie, not Chomsky, and also not a bunch of internet warriors like us. The Serbs have to shoulder much of the responsibility for the situation they were in. Stop trying to remove the blame from them and put it on us for their part in the civil war and economic problems. We were not in charge of their country after all.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #139
147. The fact that Chomsky has a whole buttload of checkable footnotes
Always. See http://understandingpower.com/ for instance. There are so many footnotes that they weren't even put in the book, but online instead, and the online hardcopy download actually weighs more than the paperback book.

I don't think Clinton was guilty of anything remotely like the WMD Bush lies, and I don't count the blowjob either. Nevertheless, the whole picture of the Balkans was skewed to present the Serbs as villains because they didn't want to surrender their economy to the WTO, unlike the Nazis who took power in Bosnia and Croatia, mainly by lies of omission, such prodding the MSM not to report anything about options for peaceful resolution of the Kosovo problem based on the Serbian parliament plan. Not that the Serbs didn't do quite a bit of killing on their side, but that was clearly not the reason for intervention.

I doubt that Clinton could have stopped the earlier incidents in the Balkans
If you are talking about the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina, he damned well could have, because it was planned by and it would not have been possible without the assistance of US mercenaries.

As to this big problem with the selling off of Serbian assets, I am not Serbias banker. Why couldn't they broker a deal for themselves that was acceptable?

Are you deliberately trying not to understand? The bombing campaign was advertised as being necessary to stop genocide. The Serbs were given a chance to ratify the Rambouillet agreement, which demanded that NATO occupy the entire country at will and that Serbia sell off all of its industry to foreigners. Neither of those conditions for avoiding war had jackshit to do with the ethnic fighting in Kosovo. You are trying to make it sound like Rambouillet was about Serbia trying to get into the EU or to get an IMF loan, instead of trying to not get bombed. WTF? Completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

And I still don't understand how bombing a car factory owned by its workers, and not nearby factories owned by foreigners, was supposed to have stopped ethnic cleansing. Care to explain that one?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #147
149. Don't have time to study rambouillet in detail
However a quick scan of the economic section looks like it sets up a Kosovo free-market. Whatever, I got to take care of some stuff.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #149
154. Yes. And just what the bloody hell does that have to do--
--with ethnic cleansing? And by what right does the US decide to bomb a country's infrastructure if they don't happen to WANT free markets?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #154
161. Ok, I'll answer that
PEACE BROTHER! THEY WANTED PEACE IN THE REGION.

It was determined that the best way to accomplish that was by having an autonomous state for Kosovo with its own economic system.

And this is my quick answer. Nighty night.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #154
165. So, how does bombing a factory in Serbia proper do anything
for Kosovo's economic system? What is so great about prostitution and drug running as an economic base, anyway?

Why should Kosovo have independence from Serbia, and not the Krajina from Croatia?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #147
157. "Footnotes! Lots and lots of footnotes!!"
My God, that's a direct quote from Ann Coulter.

Doesn't mean a damn thing. Rightwing revisionist history is replete with footnotes.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #157
159. Rightwingers are notable for no footnotes at all
And since I posted the URL, you could actually look at them if you wanted, and not just take my word for it.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. Not Ann Coulter, she prides herself on footnotes!
Just like those from Chomsky -- "On this, see that. On that, see this."

They're not footnotes any college freshman would get by with.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #160
163. Tell me where Chomsky is wrong about anything
All you say is , "I don't believe him." Why? Did he lie about WMD in Iraq like the MSM did?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #163
164. "Prove the negative."
So when did you stop beating your wife, again?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #164
166. No, I asked you to prove a positive
A single counterexample of one of Chomsky's footnotes being wrong will do.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #135
140. Should have said this in the other post
You seem to overlook the overall goal of peace in the region. That was the driving factor behind NATO involvement in the first place. There are still over 100,000 Serbs in Kosovo and peacekeepers in the region. NATO did not favor cleansing of any of these areas, but that should be obvious with a review of the negotiation process, and speeches and other news coverage from the period.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #140
155. NATO most assuredly favored the ethnic cleansing of Serbs--
--in the Krajina. In fact, the US provided strategic support and US mercenaries for the project.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #155
158. Sorry, I have to strongly disagree
The motives for NATO action are well known and on the record.

mercenaries? I would need to see something on that to make any kind of judgement. But I doubt you can connect it to NATO.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #158
162. Jeebus! If they wanted a NATO connection, they would have--
--done it themselves and not used mercenaries.

http://www.aec.at/infowar/NETSYMPOSIUM/ARCH-EN/msg00128.html

Stan Correy: The Croatians' Operation Storm was a stunning success. It took only four days to retake Krajina. And MPRI were given the credit. The Croatians had asked the Pentagon for help in early 1994, but there was an unwillingness to commit US troops. Instead, the Pentagon suggested the Croatians go to MPRI.

Paul Harris reported the war for the British media: The Croats launched an offensive simultaneously on seven or eight fronts, and this is not from the old Warsaw Pact textbook, this offensive was straight from the NATO textbook. And I don't believe that the Croats were quite up to reading military strategy and doing this on their own.

http://www.utwatch.org/corporations/utimcomercenary.html
Few people, especially U.S. citizens, are aware that one of the most instrumental tools the Croatian army utilized during its reign of terror was Military Professional Resources, Inc. MPRI turned a weak, untrained Croatian army into a cunning killing machine with the skills and knowledge passed through its contract. The official name attached to such entities that train foreign forces is "private military corporation," although most know such groups as mercenaries.

In recent years, such PMCs have become more predominant in shaping U.S. foreign policy goals globally. What is convenient for the U.S. government is the complete lack of accountability tied to such corporations. Congress has no oversight power to review the operations of PMCs, and all that is required by law is permission by the State Department for any military or logistics training abroad, something the Department has been more than willing to sign off on with very little discretion.

http://www.canadianliberty.bc.ca/relatedinfo/kosovo2.html
Prior to the onslaught, Croatian radio had previously broadcasted a message by president Franjo Tudjman, calling upon "Croatian citizens of Serbian ethnicity... to remain in their homes and not to fear the Croatian authorities, which will respect their minority rights". 38. Canadian peacekeepers of the Second Battalion of the Royal 22nd Regiment witnessed the atrocities committed by Croatian troops in the Krajina offensive in September 1995:

"Any Serb who had failed to evacuate their property were systematically "cleansed" by roving death squads. Every abandoned animal was slaughtered and any Serb household was ransacked and torched". 39.

Also confirmed by Canadian peacekeepers was the participation of German mercenaries in Operation Storm:

“Immediately behind the frontline Croatian combat troops and German mercenaries, a large number of hardline extremists had pushed into the Krajina.... Many of these atrocities were carried out within the Canadian Sector, but as the peacekeepers were soon informed by the Croat authorities, the UN no longer had any formal authority in the region”.40.

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/9/mercenaries.htm

Military Professional Resources, Inc., as well as other firms, must first get a license from the U.S. State Department before they can be contracted by a foreign government for military consultation. Sometimes they respond at the behest of the State Department as they did in April of 1995 when fighting in the Balkans was at one of its most intense periods. MPRI dispatched a team to Croatia headed by a number of retired generals. They claim to have helped the Croatians "avoid excesses or atrocities in military operations" and "offered advice about the role of the army in a democratic society." Just a few months into their lessons on "democratic values", the Croatian military launched a series of offensives against Serbian forces. The most important was dubbed "Operation Lightning Storm", launched against the Krajina region in which Serbian villages were sacked and burned, hundreds of civilians were killed and 170,000 were left homeless. The operation was a textbook illustration of western military doctrine. "The Croatians did a good job of coordinating armor, artillery and infantry", says Roger Charles, a retired marine lieutenant colonel and military researcher. "That's not something you learn while being instructed about democratic values."

While receiving consultation from MPRI, the bumbling Croatian military was transformed into a modern fighting force that surprised their foes and observers alike with quick choreographed movements of artillery, armor and infantry to flank the Serbs. The entire operation bore the stamp of the minds that created and implemented "Operation Desert Storm." Since American opinion had also been sufficiently choreographed by the national media against the Serbs, the Croatian offensive and MPRI involvement has provoked little or no protest. In fact, the use of private contractors to turn the course of war without endangering the lives of American soldiers may be commended for its shrewdness by some.



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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #162
167. So the Serbs can have an army but shame if the croatians
get one to defend themselves?

I really have to go now. But I can't understand your desire to pin evil motives on NATO and US.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #167
168. So the Croatians can ethnically cleanse the Krajina,
but the Serbs can't ethnically cleanse Kosovo? Neither project can be considered legitimate 'defense.'

Empire and domination are evil by definition, whether done by the Brits, the Soviets or the US. Do you think it would be peachy keen if some foreign country established military bases all over the US? No? Then why is it OK for us to do it to more of the countries in the world than we don't have bases in?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #168
169. Ok, this WILL be my last post on this thread
Except to thank The Magistrate for his history compilation.

The NATO operation was to stabilize the region. We should have gone in sooner and more of these slaughtered people could have been saved. The issue with Serbia was simple. They were the obstacle to peace. No other faction was resisting peacekeepers militarily as far as I know. Or not in a significant way.

I really really think you need to expand your sources of info. Do you think I have never seen this material from Chomsky? I have right here at DU. Probably a year ago. I looked at it. There is no reasonable argument that I saw for dismissing the need for peacekeepers in the region. And the issue of how to set state lines was very complex of course. The Dayton peace accord was considered on balance a success. Was everyone thrilled to fucking death with it? No.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #169
170. And Nazi heads of state in Bosnia and Croatia were not obstacles?
Every single one of the factions got into it with peacekeepers at one time or another. When did I ever say there should be no peacekeepers? Are mercenaries peacekeepers? Does deliberately aiding and abetting ethnic cleansing and slaughter against Serbs count as peacekeeping? Does taking sides against only one of three factions count as peacekeeping?

How is it that Serbs elected a parliament 2/3 opposed to Milosevic and his hamhanded approach to Kosovo, in contrast to the Croats who were nearly 100% behind ethnically cleansing the Krajina, and Serbs are the bad guys? How come Serbian bombardment of Sarajevo is bad, but Croatian shelling of Mostar doesn't count? Is there a special Nazi discount in your ethical accounting books or something?

Why is it OK for a foreign army to demand that worker-owned factories be sold, and to bomb them when the demand isn't met?

I don't understand why people are such slobbering Pavlovian dogs snarling at the designated Balkan enemy, when they are perfectly able to see the official story as nonsense when directed at Iraqis.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #170
171. Your quite confused then
1. Peacekeeper force readied for duty.

2. Serbia "Stay the Fuck Out"

3. We dick around for 10 months with Milosevic, cause he wants to dominate Kosova with his military.

4. Alert Serb troops they better get the fuck out.

5. Bombs Away.


Now really I have no more time for this.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #171
172. Your step four is wrong
Step four was a demand to have Serbia as well as Kosovo occupied by NATO troops, plus a demand to privatize all public assets.

Also, Step 2 was Milosevic only. His parliament disagreed, and that could have been a basis for a different solution.

And step 3. Why should the Serbs in Serbia tolerate the ethnic cleansing of the Serb minority in Kosovo by drug running terrorists?

And why did the Krajina get mercenaries to facilitate ethnic cleansing instead of peacekeepers to stop it?

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #172
173. Dicking around
People were dying he wanted to dick around. His negotiation style probably resulted in harsher terms then he could have gotten otherwise. Your step 2 and step 3 are irrelevant to stopping the bloodshed.

Your last sentence is not anything to do with NATO, other than it was part of the cycle of violence that the plan was intended to end.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #173
174. Glad to hear that ethnic cleansing is OK if it happens to the right people
People are still dying in Kosovo, only it's the right kind of people dying now, the ones that the government noise machine has identified as evil, so that's OK.

The plan was responsible for the successful ethnic cleansing of the Krajina. The Nazis killed or drove off the Serbs, so therefore no more violence. Isn't that nice.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #22
100. Because they hate it when imperial Dems cut in on their turf
That's the sum total of it, really. Bombing civilian infrastructure to smithereens is good only when Rethugs do it, capeesh?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Of course the war was unauthorized.....but lookit how that happened
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 04:41 AM by FrenchieCat
House tie vote under a Republican majority which means the resolution lost. The Democratic majority Senate had approved it...
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/kosovo37.htm
Conclusion: Most Democrats voted to authorize air strikes; most Republicans voted against it

House Fails To Authorize
Yugoslav Air Strikes
By Christopher Wilson
Reuters
April 29, 1999
Washington - In a stinging blow to President Clinton's foreign policy and the U.S.-led NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, a House of Representatives resolution authorizing air strikes failed to pass as a deadlocked vote showed deep opposition to American involvement in the war.

The resolution, sponsored by Democrats, foundered when 213 representatives voted for it and 213 voted against, with 26 Democrats breaking ranks to oppose the motion. Thirty-one Republicans voted in favor of air strikes. The nonbinding resolution could have passed with a simple plurality. The Senate voted last month to support air strikes. The House has no mechanism for resolving tie votes.

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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Thank you for posting this...alot of people on the left forget ...
this hideous abuse of power. I'll go with Ramsey Clark's assessment on this subject and on the subject of Wesley Clark. It's always humorous to me listening to newcomers to the protest of unjust wars hold up A.N.S.W.E.R. signs, and then admitting they supported the war in Kosovo.
Back in 98 a friend sent me an link to an old NY Times article from the late 80's. Then the NY Times was criticizing the extremist Albanian factions who were sabotaging trains and government offices in Kosovo. Basically calling them terrorists and thugs, they could have republished the same article in 98' and just replaced the words Albanians with Serbs. Yes...that's how twisted our reasoning for war became, twisted enough to create stories about Albanian Freedom fighters not really being muslim religious extremists, and creating stories about mass graves that never existed. Of course if Milosovic had not been running a socialist state this would never have phased the corporatists.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Good to know that in your book
Milosovic = good
Wes Clark = bad

Jeepers creepers!
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
102. No, Milosevich = Ariel Sharon = bad
The 2/3 of the Serbian Parliament opposed to his brutal and counterproductive handling of the Kosovo KLA terrorist problem = good

Wes Clark = good servant of US and Western European imperial agendas

Hey Wes--exactly what was wrong with the proposal of the Serbian parliament to put Kosovo under a UN mandate? And how did you get to be so good at distinguishing between factories owned by foreign interest and those owned by Serbian workers or the Serbian state, and only bombing the latter?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Imperial agenda? With regards to the Balkans?
Who gave you this skewed perception? Give me some names of the imperialists currently running things over there since our "conquest". Who are these evil ones in power that are puppets of the imperialists.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #105
109. Whoever the CEOs are who are buying up the 'privatized'--
--industries that the war put up for grabs

http://www.newstatesman.com/200412130010

Although Security Council Resolution 1244 recognises Kosovo as an integral part of Yugoslavia, multinational companies are being offered ten- and 15-year leases of the province's local industries and resources, including the vast Trepca mines, some of the richest mineral deposits in the world. Overseeing this plundered, now almost ethnically pure "future democracy" (Blair), are 4,000 American troops at Camp Bondsteel, a 775-acre permanent-base imperial presence.

Name the buyers, and you've named the imperialists.

Also, I'd say that the KLA being a major player is not so good either.

Erected on the foundation of this huge lie, Kosovo today is a violent, criminalised, UN-administered "free market" in drugs and prostitution; unemployment is 65 per cent. More than 200,000 Serbs, Roma, Bosniaks, Turks, Croats and Jews have been ethnically cleansed by the KLA, with Nato forces standing by. KLA hit squads have burned, looted or demolished 85 Orthodox churches and monasteries, according to the UN

BTW, I think the 200,000 means driven out, not killed.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. So your real gripe is the end of the former regime.
Edited on Wed Jan-26-05 08:17 AM by Jim4Wes
You favor the previous form of government that brought on the horrendous atrocities. You think the western world should have supported that government.

Have you read "War is a force that gives us meaning" by Chris Hedges. Excellent study of wars in general plus on the ground reporting from the Balkans wars of the 90's and what lead up to them.

The ethnic problems in the former Yugoslavia resulted in killing of many innocents of different ethinicities. I am not responding to you in order to deny horrendous acts of some Albanians, or to say only the Serbs committed them. The fact is the Serbs were in power and that government lead the campaign to drive the region to war. They purged intellectuals from schools and positions of influence, changed the language to ostracize the other minorities, and banged the drums of hate until the situation exploded.

When the regime was ended the country needed aid and security, lots of it. I guess you or Ramsey could have brokered a better deal for all concerned. Is that right?

Who has the agenda here, the Democrats who took action to help the sufferring people, or others who are championing a socialist-communist form of government at any cost in human lives?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. My problem is with who decides about ending regimes
From the Chomsky article

Serb dissidents, to the extent that their voices are heard here, are saying pretty much the same thing. In a fairly typical comment on BBC, a Belgrade university student said: "We did it on our own. Please do not help us again with your bombs."

You must have missed that part about the Serbian parliament being 2/3 opposed to Milosevic and his counterproductive methods of going after terrorists. They could have brokered a better deal. What the fuck does Ramsey Clark have to do with that? Not a damned thing, AFAIK. (And if you think that I'm 'supporting' Milosevic when I compare him to Ariel Sharon, you really really don't want to hear what I call people I DON'T like.)

The previous form of government did not bring on any atrocities. That was when the country was getting all sorts of loans at good rates from the West (as a reward for Tito telling the Warsaw Pact to stuff it), and times were flush, making it much easier for different factions to get along with each other. The problems started when the western imperial powers no longer needed to make nice and support an anti-Soviet regime and instead decided to hit them hard with IMF imperial economic policies. The Nazis Itzbecovic and Tudjman lead the campaign for war, and Milosevic jumped on board later.

And the Dems fucking well did not help 'suffering people', unless you think that blowing up factories that they own, making them unemployed, and establishing foreign dictatorship over their economy helps to alleviate suffering. And what goddam business is it of yours what form of business ownership and government they have anyway?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. Yeah, Serbs didn't want our help or bombs just our money, LOL.
That damn world bank, deciding where to give their money and on what terms, imagine the audacity.

As far as the parliament votes, I would have to get another source to understand what was being voted on and why people voted the way they did. Chomsky is not a source I take seriously, sorry.

Times were never flush in that shithole. The Yugoslav economy has been crappy since the 60's and if they didn't get aid from the East or the West they were fucked.

When you argue on the side of Ramsey, then I guess I jumped to the conclusion you think he is the man with a plan.

1.5 million displaced suffering people returned to their homes is helping. Get a fucking clue.

War is hell, we didn't start it, but we ended it.

And I am proud to be a Democrat and an American.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #114
134. The Serbs from Krajina got to go back?
When did that happen?

And I'm arguing on the side of Ramsey? As I recall, I compared Milosevic to Ariel Sharon--does Ramsey share that opinion?

So, Nato's destruction of only 14 Yugoslav army tanks compared with its bombing of 372 centers of industry, including the Zastava car factory, leaving hundreds of thousands jobless, improved their 'shithole' economy? How? Explain that.

And this is now what is happening to the 'suffering people'
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2004-12/09pilger.cfm

Erected on the foundation of this massive lie, Kosovo today is a violent, criminalised UN-administered "free market" in drugs and prostitution. More than 200,000 Serbs, Roma, Bosniacs, Turks, Croats and Jews have been ethnically cleansed by the KLA with Nato forces standing by. KLA hit squads have burned, looted or demolished 85 Orthodox churches and monasteries, according to the UN. The courts are venal.

I'm sure not proud of the 'free' trade whores that have systematically fucked workers all over the world with their glorious race to the bottom--luckily not all Dems are like that. And have you ever stopped to think that the same media which puts out the fluffy pink bunny picture of the Balkans is also responsible for the abysmal ignorance of Americans about the situation in Iraq? Here's a clue--they didn't just start lying when Bush was selected.


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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #134
141. Most mainstream reporting I have come across
has been pretty straight on Kosovo. Problem is no one cares anymore and Bush is letting it go down the shitter.

I'm still proud. Outsourcing, trade agreements and all....on balance its still a great country.

But there is always someone who thinks they have a better idea. Like General Clark, who fought with the Pentagon over using low altitude helicopters and prepare a plan for ground troops to reduce the need for the bombing. The scared Dems wouldn't go along with it. Thats why we need a real leader in the WH like Gen. Clark.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. WesClark lobbied to DARPA for Acxiom, a Big Brother vendor. !!
http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/acxiom%2Bwesley%2Bclark%2Bdarpa

This fact alone tells you that he is not our 'savior' from the Big Brother neo-cons.

Acxiom is one of the big data-mining firms that DARPA uses to monitor all of our asses all the time along with the NSA.

Fuck No. I strongly recommend reading 'No Place to Hide' by Washington Post investigative reporter, Robert O'Harrow Jr.

It will scare the shit out of you to see how many years the DOD and NSA have had the drop on all of us if we ever really become a threat to their power by opening a domestic front as in Vietnam. They won't ever let that happen again.

You realize there are camps waiting for people like you and me and Wesley Clark has helped track us all at DARPA.

Very very very bad news is Wesley Clark because he SOUNDS so good.
Been there, done that. No.
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Heaven forbid we had stopped 9-11!
He had family members who showed him the computer program at Axciom was able to identify most of the hijackers. He thought that might have been usefull. He also addressed the privacy concerns that would need to be considered. The government already has the capability of tracking anyone. It would be good to have a man in charge who understands what this capability is and how to protect individuals.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #142
144. conspiracy theories just don't interest me much since I turned 40.
Edited on Thu Jan-27-05 08:53 PM by Jim4Wes
Clark promised to make cuts in defense spending. He was the only candidate that could have done it in these times. You see, he knows where the waste and bad programs are hiding.

Whether the program would have been ever been considered a success in the eyes of critics I don't know. But it is reported by others involved that he consistently stressed privacy concerns with regard to that lobby effort. Eventually something like these forerunners will exist, I'd like to have Clark help to craft the rules by which it can and cannot be used myself. Have you ever heard him talk about civil liberties? Definitely one of his priorities. But I know I know, you probably think that its better to stand outside with a sign than inside with the responsibility to do it right.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #144
148.  9/23/03 Wes outted on live TV for authoring 5 yr $245billion occupation.
(On 9/23/03 Wesley Clark was outted on live TV by Dennis Kucinich for being one of the authors of the intelligence document stipulating a 5 year-long occupation of Iraq costing a quarter trillion dollars that was used to brief Congress after the invasion. This qualifies, to me, as working for the neo-cons and leaving the American public completely out of the loop on a PNAC project which is destroying our nation's security and economy.-JOM)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A433-2003Sep25¬Found=true

SEIB: Turning on Iraq to Congressman Kucinich and Reverend Sharpton, you've both been outspoken critics of the war and have said, in fact, you'd bring the troops home. But the fact is that as of now the troops are there, the United States is committed.

Would you vote--will you vote yes or no on the $87 billion? And if the answer is no, what's the message you would send to the troops who are there today?

KUCINICH: The message is now I will not vote for the $87 billion. I think we should support the troops and I think we best support them by bringing them home.

Our troops are at peril there, because of this administration's policy. And I think that the American people deserve to know where every candidate on this stage stands on this issue, because we were each provided with a document--a security document that more or less advised us to stay the course, don't cut and run, commit up to 150,000 troops for five years at a cost of up to $245 billion.

A matter of fact, General Clark was one of the authors of that document that was released in July.

So I think the American people deserve to know that a candidate--and I'm the candidate who led the effort in the House of Representatives challenging the Bush administration's march toward war, I say bring the troops home unequivocally. Bring them home and stop this commitment for $87 billion, which is only going to get us in deeper.

After a while, we're going to be sacrificing our education, our health care, our housing and the future of this nation.

SEIB: Congressman?

KUCINICH: Bring them home.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #141
145. No more straightforward than it has been on Iraq
And why otherwise informed people want the fluffy bunny stories instead of the truth about the successful ethnic cleansing carried out by KLA, plus its drug running and Al Qaeda support, is beyond me.

That's what this argument is about for me, not Clark. We could do a lot worse, as I don't expect anyone who will seriously challenge imperialism to be allowed in serious competition.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #145
146. Just my perception on the coverage
If I sounded like a clarkaholic on this thread my apologies. I have been dismayed at a concerted effort to defame him of late. As to questions of war and imperialism I actually do take them seriously and think they are worthy of discussion. See ya...
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #146
150. My concern is less about Clark than all this fluffy bunny nonsense
about Kosovo. If the MSM were spreading lies and doing the warwhoop routine before Iraq, why in bleeding hell would anyone assume they told the truth about Kosovo? Both are part of the same imperial project of encircling the main collection of oil resources, and nothing else.

We are in very serious trouble with peak oil coming up soon, and we need to be throwing every single spare resource into inventing the post oil economy, not into kicking the shit out of the rest of the world in a vain attempt to control a declining resource. I am not at all sure of how well Clark gets this, though he is surely more convinceable than Cheney and his thugs.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #150
153. If Anyone Is Desirous Of Facts In This Matter
The Unhappy History of Kossovo


One: Origin of the Quarrel

The clash in Kossovo of Arnaut and Vascian, as the peoples known to we moderns as Albanian and Serb were oft known in Ottoman days, differs from the usual run of Balkan bloodletting; it describes a real ethnic difference. Serb, Croat, Slovene, Montenegrin; all are Slavs, divided due to institutions only. Albanians remain in some proportion survivals of the old Dalmatian and Illyric peoples of Roman days, taken to craggy peaks for refuge from a tide of Slavic invasion commencing with the sixth century.

Medieval Albanian Catholicism offered further differentiation from Orthodox Serbs. The northeastern extension of the Albanian remnant, and the southern marches of the Serb, coincided roughly in modern Kossovo. Here the Serb Czar and Orthodox Patriarchite were able to exert authority the more atomized Albanian polity could not. After the death of the Albanian chieftain Skanderberg, and the Ottoman routing of Venice from the latter’s Adriatic lodgments, late in the fifteenth century, Albanians generally converted to Islam.

In Kossovo, this established local Albanians’ dominance over the Orthodox Serb peasantry, as the Ottoman gave landlord’s tenure only to Moslems. More enterprising or desperate Serbs migrated north; Albanians of similar motivation replaced them from the west. The locale remained poorly ordered, and a frequent theater for rebellion and consequent Ottoman suppression.

The catastrophe suffered by the Ottoman besieging Vienna in 1683 led to the swift seizure of Bosnia, Albania, and Serbia by Austrian and Bavarian Catholic armies. An Austrian force ventured into Kossovo in 1689, setting Albanian and Serb alike both to rebellion against the Ottoman and to battle against one another. The Austrians soon were routed at Nish. In Kossovo, the Ottoman killed every inhabitant they could lay hands on for days. Serbs fled north in great number, Albanians fled west.

With Ottoman authority reasserted, it was mostly Albanians who returned. These soon outnumbered the Serb survivors and progeny. Erection of an autonomous Serbia early in the nineteenth century enticed Kossovo Serbs to migrate north and acquire a freehold farm there. The Russo-Turkish War of 1877, which saw near collapse for the tottering Ottoman, was preceded and followed by Serb attacks.

These fell on Ottoman garrisons and Moslem inhabitants in the south of modern Serbia, culminating in the 1878 sack and firing of the Albanian quarter in Nish. Islamic refugees fled into Kossovo; Christians fled into Serbia for shelter from ensuing pogrom, and advancing Ottoman soldiery. The peace imposed by the Treaty of Berlin left Kossovo under unrestricted Ottoman rule.


Two: To the Yugoslav Monarchy

Albanian agitation for autonomy on modern terms within the declining Ottoman imperium began at Prizren in Kossovo, and at Istanbul. The Serb remnant in Kossovo were subjected to a wretched existence, without recourse from predation by landlord or hostile brigand. Early in 1912, declaration of an Albanian state ignited a successful rebellion in Kossovo against the Ottoman. In the Balkan War, pitting Slav and Greek against the Ottoman that autumn, Serbian armies struck south through Kossovo with great massacre against the Albanian populace. The Treaty of Bucharest in 1913 confirmed Serbia in possession of Kossovo.

During World War One, Austria-Hungary put Serbia’s army to flight in 1915. Albanians in Kossovo rose against the retreating Serbs with utmost savagery. The Serb soldiers replied in kind to fight their way through to the Adriatic, there embarking on French ships to tremendous Allied acclaim. Serb armies re-entered Kossovo from the south by the 1918 Armistice, and were bitterly resisted by Albanian rebels. The new Yugoslav monarchy with its Serb king did not succeed in breaking organized resistance till 1924 in Kossovo. Brigandage, and brutal reprisal, remained endemic to the locale.

The Serb monarchy of Yugoslavia superintended a determined effort to secure its rule in Kossovo. Land was stolen from Albanians as “undocumented,” and made available for Serbs who would venture south to settle on it. Schools teaching in Albanian, originally encouraged in the hope they would keep Albanians backward, proved hotbeds of secessionist agitation, and were suppressed. In 1937, the monarchy entertained proposals by a leading Serb intellectual, the assassin turned historian Vaso Cubrilovic of Belgrade University, that all Albanians be forcibly expelled from Kossovo.

Near the start of World War Two, Fascist Italy seized Albania. Nazi Germany seized Yugoslavia in 1941. The mines in northern Kossovo, and most Kossovo Serbs therefore, were retained under Nazi occupation; the remainder of Kossovo was awarded to Italian Albania. Serbs in Italian Kossovo, mostly recent settlers, were pitilessly persecuted by Albanians, even against occasional Italian opposition. The S. S. security division “Skanderberg” was largely recruited among Kossovo Albanians.


Three: The Tito Era

After Italy capitulated in 1943, Tito, the Communist partisan leader, declared Kossovo would be allowed self-determination if Communists won. In 1944, his partisans succeeded in fighting their way into the place, with some local Albanian support at last. Royalist Chetnik partisans violently opposed any idea of Kossovo secession, winning Tito even more support in that locale.

Tito, however, reneged on that promised self-determination, annexing Kossovo anew to Serbia as an “Autonomous district” within his new Yugoslavia. The Albanian Communist leader, Enver Hoxha, was in no position to contest the matter, amid talk under Stalin of a Balkan Federation to include Albania itself. Tito’s break in 1948 with Stalin ended any real hope for Hoxha he could fold Kossovo into his hoped for Greater Albania.

Kossovo’s populace was then about three-fifths Albanian and one-quarter Serb, with the remainder including Moslem Slavs, Catholic Montenegrins, Turks, and Gypsies. Tito saw that Communist party and police supervisors in Kossovo were Serbs. These energetically hunted up the least hint of Albanian secessionists, harvesting batches of them for show trials in 1956 (coincident with the Hungarian revolt), and again in 1964.

Tito purged his Serb Interior Minister in 1966, for opposition to economic decentralization. Albanian Communists replaced Serbs in Party and police supervisory posts in Kossovo. In the “Prague Spring” of ’68, Kossovo Albanian students demonstrated for national status in Yugoslavia, and an Albanian language university. After many arrests, Tito granted the university in 1970. Albanian language textbooks could only be got in Enver Hoxha’s Albania, which opened a connection to the new Kossovo school in Pristina for his enterprising “special service” agents.

A new Yugoslav constitution in 1974 gave autonomous Serbian Kossovo effective national status, with a representative on the Yugoslav collective presidency. Albanian Kossovo police and party personnel suppressed radical cliques, inspired to “Enverism” (as secession became called) by Hoxha’s agents. Some of these cliques, formed about 1978, included young men who would later become leading lights of the present-day Kossovo Liberation Army.

Tito died in 1980. In spring of 1981, Kossovo Albanian students at Pristina University began demonstrations demanding independence, even fusion with Hoxha’s Albania, to applause from spectators. Yugoslav Interior Ministry troops arrived, and broke the demonstrations, shooting and beating scores to death. Kossovo Albanian party and police officials sustained the crack-down, loyally denouncing “Enverist” radicals, and arresting and beating hundreds suspected of such leanings.

Radical secessionist leaders fled to sanctuaries in Western Europe. Several, meeting near Stuttgart in 1982 to form a popular front, were ambushed and shot dead by unknown assailants. Surviving radicals concluded the bullets came from Serbs in the Yugoslav Interior Ministry, and swore blood vengeance. Under the name of Popular Movement for the Kossovo Republic, a handful of such trained in Albania, and attempted a campaign of gun-battles and bombs against Kossovo and Yugoslav police.


Four: Rise of Milosevic

These largely would-be assassins had no material effect, but a profound moral one. Any crime against serbs in Kossovo was in serbia reported as secessionist terror, and crimes against Serbs in Kossovo, particularly against property of isolated farms and Orthodox sites, occurred with increasing frequency. The Serb Orthodox Patriarchite was ranged alongside the Serb Academy of Sciebces in protest of this, with the latter, in 1985, calling the current situation genocide against against Serbs in Kossovo.

At the start of 1986, the banker Slobodan Milosevic ascended to leadership of the Serb Communist Party. Belligerence in favor of Serbs dwelling outside Serbia’s boundaries, or in the autonomous districts of Vojvodina and Kossovo, offered a ready lever for political power. Kossovo Serbs were organizing militias with assistance from Serb Interior Ministry police; Hoxha’s death had not altered Albania’s support of “Enverism” in Kossovo.

Early in 1987, Milosevic arrived in Pristina’s suburbs for a meeting with Kossovo Serb leaders. A large crowd of Kossovo Serbs rioted before him against the largely Albanian Kossovo police. It was not chance; four days before, Milosevic had met with the riot’s instigators, and a schedule had been fixed for the outbreak.

Widely broadcast film of the incident established Milosevic as champion of distressed Serbs. Later that year, Milosevic used this popularity to force Serbia’s president from office. In the summer of 1988, Milosevic’s Serb Communist Party organized a campaign of Kossovo Remembrance rallies throughout Serbia proper, claiming an average attendance of half a million at each. In November, Milosevic as Party chief dismissed the Albanians in Communist Party leadership in Kossovo, and promulgated constitutional changes effectively stripping Kossovo of its autonomous status.

Albanian Communist leadership in Kossovo mobilized sizable demonstrations and hunger strikes in protest early in 1989. These were broken with loss of life by Yugoslav Interior Ministry troops, who seized the arms of both Kossovo’s national guard and police. Closely surrounded by tanks, the Kossovo Assembly voted itself out of effective existence on March 23.

Milosevic now accepted the Presidency of Serbia. Continuing Albanian demonstrations in Kossovo were broken by Serb and Yugoslav soldiers and police; hundreds of arrests were accompanied by torture. At the end of the year, Albanian intellectuals and some Communist leaders collected to form the Democratic League for Kossovo. The police terror stilled the demonstrations early in 1990.

Milosevic ratified Serb Parliament decrees forbidding Albanians to buy land from Serbs in Kossovo, and removing Albanians from civil service, including hospitals, schools, and the police. The latter quickly became overwhelmingly Serb. The Albanian membership of the Communist Party in Kossovo took up membership in the League for Democratic Kossovo.


Five: The Kossovo Resistance

This L. D. K. was led by the writer Ibrahim Rugova. He inspired Kossovo Albanians to a program of passive resistance to Serb authority. A “shadow state” emerged, quartered in private dwellings, and with a government in exile operating in Germany. Rugova’s “shadow state” held elections, administered Albanian language schooling, even collected taxes. These applied equally to Kossovo Albanians dwelling abroad; most were guest-worker laborers in Europe, but some were prosperous businessmen, or smugglers of stolen cars and narcotics and prostitutes.

The handful of violent radicals constituting the Popular Movement for the Kossovo Republic (P. M. K. R.) were denounced by Rugova as stooges of the Serb police, and he was widely believed by Kossovo Albanians when he did. The radicals’ sporadic gunshots and arsons each served to signal a fresh campaign of interrogations and beatings by Serb police, directed against the nonviolent “shadow state” organizers.

With Yugoslav and Serb armed forces devoted to war in Croatia and Bosnia, Milosevic was content to leave Kossovo at this status quo. On Serb victory in Croatia, one of the leading Serb killers, an Interior Ministry employee known as Arkan, moved to Pristina with scores of armed followers. “Enverist” radicals of the P. M. K. R. secretly convened in Drenica (where resistance to the old Yugoslav monarchy had persisted into 1924), and there voted themselves the armed force of the Kossovo Republic. Albania’s newly elected government maintained cordial relations both with these radicals, and Rugova’s pacific Kossovo government in exile, now established near Bonn.

Kossovo Albanian boycott of official Serb elections in December 1993 gave Milosevic a resounding victory over his rival for the presidency, the Serb-American businessman Panic, and allowed the killer Arkan to win election to a parliament seat. The “Enverist” radicals were split into a Marxist faction, the National Movement for the Liberation of Kossovo, and a Nationalist faction, the Kossovo Liberation Army. The latter had a better footing abroad, where the pacific Rugova’s government in exile at Bonn was beginning to explore establishing its own armed force. Albania continued to assist by giving military training to dozens of radicals, and allowing transit through its borders.

The bloody summer of 1995 saw Serb massacre of Bosnian Moslems, Croat expulsion of Serbs, and NATO bombing of Serb forces in Bosnia. The Dayton Accords confirmed Serb gains in Bosnia, and recognized the rump Yugoslav Federation Milosevic dominated, from his seat for Serbia in its collective presidency. The pacific Rugova used his control of Albanian language media in Kossovo to maintain popular commitment to passive resistance, while the fledgling KLA demanded Serb departure from Kossovo, and launched a new campaign of sporadic shootings and bombings.

Serbia was greatly unsettled by the influx of refugees from Krajina and Slavonia. In Yugoslav elections on May 31, 1996, the Montenegrin presidency went to an opponent of Milosevic, and in Serbia, opposition parties won local posts in many cities. Milosevic refused to allow victorious opponents to take office in Serbia. He allowed three months of demonstrations, then bought off his principal Serb opponent by offering him a cabinet post. The demonstrations were mopped up by brutal police attack, and opposition figures allowed to take local office found their function superseded by various national agencies. The Vatican brokered an agreement Milosevic signed to allow Albanian language schools official existence in Kossovo, but he took no steps to implement it.


Six: Taking Up the Gun

In Bonn, the leading functionary of Rugova’s government in exile, Bujar Bukoshi, rejected passive resistance, and turned the radio transmitter he controlled to broadcasts supporting the KLA. Early in 1997, Albania’s banks were revealed as Ponzi swindles. Mobs looted government facilities, including military arsenals, and swiftly reduced the land to anarchic chaos, in which a Kalshnikov rifle could be had for a five dollar bill.

Bukoshi’s embryonic forces, consisting of a few hundred exiled policemen and soldiers, established themselves in Albania as the Armed Forces of the Kossovo Republic (F. A. R. K.), in competition with the KLA. Albanian students organized demonstrations against Milosevic’s refusal to implement the Vatican agreement on schooling, ignoring orders to desist from Rugova. Serb police crushed the demonstrations with extraordinary brutality.

KLA attacks, which by the Serb government’s claims had been occurring roughly once a week, and claimed ten Serb lives since 1995, began to take place almost daily at the start of 1998. In the old rebel district of Drenica, near the village of Likosane just before noon on February 28, a gunfight broke out between KLA men and a Serb police patrol. Once it was over, Serb police massacred the men of a wealthy Albanian clan considered leaders of the hamlet. Five days later, Serb police surrounded the family compound of a KLA leader and shelled it for hours, then went into the ruins and murdered women, children, and wounded, to a total of 58, including the KLA man, Adem Jashari.

These murders turned Albanian village elders throughout Kossovo against Rugova’s passive resistance. They put hundreds of their young men at the disposal of the KLA. In Drenica, and near the Albanian border, armed partisan bands appeared in such strength the Serb police retired to establish encircling roadblocks. Western diplomats threatened Milosevic with dire consequences if the murders by his police were repeated. Milosevic agreed to begin implementing the Vatican schools agreement, and to meet with Ibrahim Rugova. Simultaneously, Milosevic admitted the ultra-nationalist Chetnik party into a coalition government with his Serbian Socialist Party, and loosed his Serb police once again into Drenica.

This campaign was conducted with the same degree of atrocity that characterized previous operations by Serb police. In one typical incident near Gorjne Obrinje, after fourteen Serb police were shot in a fire-fight, a group of fourteen Albanian women, children, and old men found hiding nearby were shot point-blank by Serb police. Some 200,000 Albanians fled their homes to avoid the fighting, some to southern Kossovo and some to Albania. President Clinton ordered a show of force by U. S. warplanes over Yugoslavia, and in October, his pressure secured an agreement by which Serb Interior Ministry troops were to vacate Kossovo, negotiations with Kossovo Albanian leaders were to begin in earnest, and a body of diplomatic observers would enter Kossovo to monitor events. During the course of negotiating this agreement, Milosevic told a U. S. general that the way to bring peace to Drenica was to “kill them all.”

The monitored cease-fire brought many Kossovo Albanian refugees back to their homes. In Albania, the Kossovo government in exile’s small armed force was violently absorbed by the KLA; in Kossovo, KLA men began arresting and executing functionaries of Rugova’s “shadow state” as collaborators with Serbia. They also murdered about a dozen Serb civilians, and a Serb village mayor. By the start of 1999, fire-fights of company and even battalion scale between KLA guerrillas and Serb police were once more occurring.

Near dawn on January 15, battle broke out between KLA guerrillas and Serb police near the town of Racak. After nine KLA men were killed the rest fled. During the afternoon Serb police entered the town, raped and murdered two women, and murdered forty-three unarmed men and boys. Serb Information Ministry spokesmen in Pristina next morning invited Western journalists to visit the scene of a “successful” fight against the KLA; when they reported what they saw, Milosevic declared the KLA had fabricated the incident, and demanded the diplomatic observers quit Kossovo. The chief judge of the United Nations War Crimes Tribunal for Yugoslavia was denied entry to the country.

Seven: The NATO Intervention

NATO demanded the talks agreed to the previous October begin in February, and threatened military action to force compliance. The meeting at Rambouillet Chateau featured a severely fractured Albanian delegation; its principal factions (all of which hated one another) were Rugova’s adherents in the old LDK, old line Communist functionaries from that same umbrella group, and the KLA led by Hashim Thaci. After days of negotiation, Milosevic struck out about half the already settled agreement, substituting his initial demands, which the Albanians and NATO had already rejected, and forced collapse of the talks on March 18. Two days later, 40,000 Serb police and soldiers with 300 armored vehicles launched a fresh offensive into Drenica.

NATO air strikes commenced against Serbia on March 24. While these aimed at destroying Serb anti-aircraft defenses, Serb police and soldiers in Kossovo commenced a wholesale assault on the Albanians of Kossovo, aimed at driving them from the country by exemplary massacre. During the course of this campaign, roughly 10,000 persons, mostly young men, were murdered by Serb police and soldiers. Almost a million Albanians took to flight, either west to Albania, south into Macedonia, or into the mountains of Kossovo itself. Lightly armed KLA guerrillas could accomplish nothing against the Serb forces.

When Serb air defenses were disabled, NATO warplanes began attacks demolishing bridges, power stations, and the like in Serbia proper. With Serb police and soldiers forced to retire their heavy equipment to shelter in bunkers by NATO air bombardment in Kossovo, their murder squads became vulnerable to attack by Albanian partisans, many of whom were not, properly speaking, KLA, but village militia deployed by their clan elders. When Serb police and soldiers attempted to group together to overpower these guerrilla bands, the Serbs were savaged by NATO warplanes.

On June 3, Milosevic capitulated. Serb police and soldiers retired northward; NATO troops moved in. Kossovo Albanian refugees streamed back to their homes. Many set upon Serbs still remaining in Kossovo. NATO troops intervened to protect lives, but not property; even so, several dozen Serbs, many elderly, were killed. The overwhelming majority of Serbs resident in Kossovo fled north into Serbia, or into that small portion of northern Kossovo around the mines where they had long constituted the principal element of the populace.

A government for Kossovo, formed under NATO auspices, blended elements of the LDK and KLA, with the KLA’s Hashim Thaci emerging as Prime Minister, while Ibrahim Rugova, the nonviolent leader, found himself without power, or much prestige. The KLA has kept its word to disarm only poorly, and remains a police problem for NATO occupation troops. It has attempted to provoke guerrilla war in the adjoining areas of Macedonia which are largely populated by Albanians, but has had scant success there, either in baiting the Macedonian government into atrocious reaction to their activities, or in gaining wide support among Albanian people in those districts.
The Unhappy History of Kossovo


One: Origin of the Quarrel

The clash in Kossovo of Arnaut and Vascian, as the peoples known to we moderns as Albanian and Serb were oft known in Ottoman days, differs from the usual run of Balkan bloodletting; it describes a real ethnic difference. Serb, Croat, Slovene, Montenegrin; all are Slavs, divided due to institutions only. Albanians remain in some proportion survivals of the old Dalmatian and Illyric peoples of Roman days, taken to craggy peaks for refuge from a tide of Slavic invasion commencing with the sixth century.

Medieval Albanian Catholicism offered further differentiation from Orthodox Serbs. The northeastern extension of the Albanian remnant, and the southern marches of the Serb, coincided roughly in modern Kossovo. Here the Serb Czar and Orthodox Patriarchite were able to exert authority the more atomized Albanian polity could not. After the death of the Albanian chieftain Skanderberg, and the Ottoman routing of Venice from the latter’s Adriatic lodgments, late in the fifteenth century, Albanians generally converted to Islam.

In Kossovo, this established local Albanians’ dominance over the Orthodox Serb peasantry, as the Ottoman gave landlord’s tenure only to Moslems. More enterprising or desperate Serbs migrated north; Albanians of similar motivation replaced them from the west. The locale remained poorly ordered, and a frequent theater for rebellion and consequent Ottoman suppression.

The catastrophe suffered by the Ottoman besieging Vienna in 1683 led to the swift seizure of Bosnia, Albania, and Serbia by Austrian and Bavarian Catholic armies. An Austrian force ventured into Kossovo in 1689, setting Albanian and Serb alike both to rebellion against the Ottoman and to battle against one another. The Austrians soon were routed at Nish. In Kossovo, the Ottoman killed every inhabitant they could lay hands on for days. Serbs fled north in great number, Albanians fled west.

With Ottoman authority reasserted, it was mostly Albanians who returned. These soon outnumbered the Serb survivors and progeny. Erection of an autonomous Serbia early in the nineteenth century enticed Kossovo Serbs to migrate north and acquire a freehold farm there. The Russo-Turkish War of 1877, which saw near collapse for the tottering Ottoman, was preceded and followed by Serb attacks.

These fell on Ottoman garrisons and Moslem inhabitants in the south of modern Serbia, culminating in the 1878 sack and firing of the Albanian quarter in Nish. Islamic refugees fled into Kossovo; Christians fled into Serbia for shelter from ensuing pogrom, and advancing Ottoman soldiery. The peace imposed by the Treaty of Berlin left Kossovo under unrestricted Ottoman rule.


Two: To the Yugoslav Monarchy

Albanian agitation for autonomy on modern terms within the declining Ottoman imperium began at Prizren in Kossovo, and at Istanbul. The Serb remnant in Kossovo were subjected to a wretched existence, without recourse from predation by landlord or hostile brigand. Early in 1912, declaration of an Albanian state ignited a successful rebellion in Kossovo against the Ottoman. In the Balkan War, pitting Slav and Greek against the Ottoman that autumn, Serbian armies struck south through Kossovo with great massacre against the Albanian populace. The Treaty of Bucharest in 1913 confirmed Serbia in possession of Kossovo.

During World War One, Austria-Hungary put Serbia’s army to flight in 1915. Albanians in Kossovo rose against the retreating Serbs with utmost savagery. The Serb soldiers replied in kind to fight their way through to the Adriatic, there embarking on French ships to tremendous Allied acclaim. Serb armies re-entered Kossovo from the south by the 1918 Armistice, and were bitterly resisted by Albanian rebels. The new Yugoslav monarchy with its Serb king did not succeed in breaking organized resistance till 1924 in Kossovo. Brigandage, and brutal reprisal, remained endemic to the locale.

The Serb monarchy of Yugoslavia superintended a determined effort to secure its rule in Kossovo. Land was stolen from Albanians as “undocumented,” and made available for Serbs who would venture south to settle on it. Schools teaching in Albanian, originally encouraged in the hope they would keep Albanians backward, proved hotbeds of secessionist agitation, and were suppressed. In 1937, the monarchy entertained proposals by a leading Serb intellectual, the assassin turned historian Vaso Cubrilovic of Belgrade University, that all Albanians be forcibly expelled from Kossovo.

Near the start of World War Two, Fascist Italy seized Albania. Nazi Germany seized Yugoslavia in 1941. The mines in northern Kossovo, and most Kossovo Serbs therefore, were retained under Nazi occupation; the remainder of Kossovo was awarded to Italian Albania. Serbs in Italian Kossovo, mostly recent settlers, were pitilessly persecuted by Albanians, even against occasional Italian opposition. The S. S. security division “Skanderberg” was largely recruited among Kossovo Albanians.


Three: The Tito Era

After Italy capitulated in 1943, Tito, the Communist partisan leader, declared Kossovo would be allowed self-determination if Communists won. In 1944, his partisans succeeded in fighting their way into the place, with some local Albanian support at last. Royalist Chetnik partisans violently opposed any idea of Kossovo secession, winning Tito even more support in that locale.

Tito, however, reneged on that promised self-determination, annexing Kossovo anew to Serbia as an “Autonomous district” within his new Yugoslavia. The Albanian Communist leader, Enver Hoxha, was in no position to contest the matter, amid talk under Stalin of a Balkan Federation to include Albania itself. Tito’s break in 1948 with Stalin ended any real hope for Hoxha he could fold Kossovo into his hoped for Greater Albania.

Kossovo’s populace was then about three-fifths Albanian and one-quarter Serb, with the remainder including Moslem Slavs, Catholic Montenegrins, Turks, and Gypsies. Tito saw that Communist party and police supervisors in Kossovo were Serbs. These energetically hunted up the least hint of Albanian secessionists, harvesting batches of them for show trials in 1956 (coincident with the Hungarian revolt), and again in 1964.

Tito purged his Serb Interior Minister in 1966, for opposition to economic decentralization. Albanian Communists replaced Serbs in Party and police supervisory posts in Kossovo. In the “Prague Spring” of ’68, Kossovo Albanian students demonstrated for national status in Yugoslavia, and an Albanian language university. After many arrests, Tito granted the university in 1970. Albanian language textbooks could only be got in Enver Hoxha’s Albania, which opened a connection to the new Kossovo school in Pristina for his enterprising “special service” agents.

A new Yugoslav constitution in 1974 gave autonomous Serbian Kossovo effective national status, with a representative on the Yugoslav collective presidency. Albanian Kossovo police and party personnel suppressed radical cliques, inspired to “Enverism” (as secession became called) by Hoxha’s agents. Some of these cliques, formed about 1978, included young men who would later become leading lights of the present-day Kossovo Liberation Army.

Tito died in 1980. In spring of 1981, Kossovo Albanian students at Pristina University began demonstrations demanding independence, even fusion with Hoxha’s Albania, to applause from spectators. Yugoslav Interior Ministry troops arrived, and broke the demonstrations, shooting and beating scores to death. Kossovo Albanian party and police officials sustained the crack-down, loyally denouncing “Enverist” radicals, and arresting and beating hundreds suspected of such leanings.

Radical secessionist leaders fled to sanctuaries in Western Europe. Several, meeting near Stuttgart in 1982 to form a popular front, were ambushed and shot dead by unknown assailants. Surviving radicals concluded the bullets came from Serbs in the Yugoslav Interior Ministry, and swore blood vengeance. Under the name of Popular Movement for the Kossovo Republic, a handful of such trained in Albania, and attempted a campaign of gun-battles and bombs against Kossovo and Yugoslav police.


Four: Rise of Milosevic

These largely would-be assassins had no material effect, but a profound moral one. Any crime against serbs in Kossovo was in serbia reported as secessionist terror, and crimes against Serbs in Kossovo, particularly against property of isolated farms and Orthodox sites, occurred with increasing frequency. The Serb Orthodox Patriarchite was ranged alongside the Serb Academy of Sciebces in protest of this, with the latter, in 1985, calling the current situation genocide against against Serbs in Kossovo.

At the start of 1986, the banker Slobodan Milosevic ascended to leadership of the Serb Communist Party. Belligerence in favor of Serbs dwelling outside Serbia’s boundaries, or in the autonomous districts of Vojvodina and Kossovo, offered a ready lever for political power. Kossovo Serbs were organizing militias with assistance from Serb Interior Ministry police; Hoxha’s death had not altered Albania’s support of “Enverism” in Kossovo.

Early in 1987, Milosevic arrived in Pristina’s suburbs for a meeting with Kossovo Serb leaders. A large crowd of Kossovo Serbs rioted before him against the largely Albanian Kossovo police. It was not chance; four days before, Milosevic had met with the riot’s instigators, and a schedule had been fixed for the outbreak.

Widely broadcast film of the incident established Milosevic as champion of distressed Serbs. Later that year, Milosevic used this popularity to force Serbia’s president from office. In the summer of 1988, Milosevic’s Serb Communist Party organized a campaign of Kossovo Remembrance rallies throughout Serbia proper, claiming an average attendance of half a million at each. In November, Milosevic as Party chief dismissed the Albanians in Communist Party leadership in Kossovo, and promulgated constitutional changes effectively stripping Kossovo of its autonomous status.

Albanian Communist leadership in Kossovo mobilized sizable demonstrations and hunger strikes in protest early in 1989. These were broken with loss of life by Yugoslav Interior Ministry troops, who seized the arms of both Kossovo’s national guard and police. Closely surrounded by tanks, the Kossovo Assembly voted itself out of effective existence on March 23.

Milosevic now accepted the Presidency of Serbia. Continuing Albanian demonstrations in Kossovo were broken by Serb and Yugoslav soldiers and police; hundreds of arrests were accompanied by torture. At the end of the year, Albanian intellectuals and some Communist leaders collected to form the Democratic League for Kossovo. The police terror stilled the demonstrations early in 1990.

Milosevic ratified Serb Parliament decrees forbidding Albanians to buy land from Serbs in Kossovo, and removing Albanians from civil service, including hospitals, schools, and the police. The latter quickly became overwhelmingly Serb. The Albanian membership of the Communist Party in Kossovo took up membership in the League for Democratic Kossovo.


Five: The Kossovo Resistance

This L. D. K. was led by the writer Ibrahim Rugova. He inspired Kossovo Albanians to a program of passive resistance to Serb authority. A “shadow state” emerged, quartered in private dwellings, and with a government in exile operating in Germany. Rugova’s “shadow state” held elections, administered Albanian language schooling, even collected taxes. These applied equally to Kossovo Albanians dwelling abroad; most were guest-worker laborers in Europe, but some were prosperous businessmen, or smugglers of stolen cars and narcotics and prostitutes.

The handful of violent radicals constituting the Popular Movement for the Kossovo Republic (P. M. K. R.) were denounced by Rugova as stooges of the Serb police, and he was widely believed by Kossovo Albanians when he did. The radicals’ sporadic gunshots and arsons each served to signal a fresh campaign of interrogations and beatings by Serb police, directed against the nonviolent “shadow state” organizers.

With Yugoslav and Serb armed forces devoted to war in Croatia and Bosnia, Milosevic was content to leave Kossovo at this status quo. On Serb victory in Croatia, one of the leading Serb killers, an Interior Ministry employee known as Arkan, moved to Pristina with scores of armed followers. “Enverist” radicals of the P. M. K. R. secretly convened in Drenica (where resistance to the old Yugoslav monarchy had persisted into 1924), and there voted themselves the armed force of the Kossovo Republic. Albania’s newly elected government maintained cordial relations both with these radicals, and Rugova’s pacific Kossovo government in exile, now established near Bonn.

Kossovo Albanian boycott of official Serb elections in December 1993 gave Milosevic a resounding victory over his rival for the presidency, the Serb-American businessman Panic, and allowed the killer Arkan to win election to a parliament seat. The “Enverist” radicals were split into a Marxist faction, the National Movement for the Liberation of Kossovo, and a Nationalist faction, the Kossovo Liberation Army. The latter had a better footing abroad, where the pacific Rugova’s government in exile at Bonn was beginning to explore establishing its own armed force. Albania continued to assist by giving military training to dozens of radicals, and allowing transit through its borders.

The bloody summer of 1995 saw Serb massacre of Bosnian Moslems, Croat expulsion of Serbs, and NATO bombing of Serb forces in Bosnia. The Dayton Accords confirmed Serb gains in Bosnia, and recognized the rump Yugoslav Federation Milosevic dominated, from his seat for Serbia in its collective presidency. The pacific Rugova used his control of Albanian language media in Kossovo to maintain popular commitment to passive resistance, while the fledgling KLA demanded Serb departure from Kossovo, and launched a new campaign of sporadic shootings and bombings.

Serbia was greatly unsettled by the influx of refugees from Krajina and Slavonia. In Yugoslav elections on May 31, 1996, the Montenegrin presidency went to an opponent of Milosevic, and in Serbia, opposition parties won local posts in many cities. Milosevic refused to allow victorious opponents to take office in Serbia. He allowed three months of demonstrations, then bought off his principal Serb opponent by offering him a cabinet post. The demonstrations were mopped up by brutal police attack, and opposition figures allowed to take local office found their function superseded by various national agencies. The Vatican brokered an agreement Milosevic signed to allow Albanian language schools official existence in Kossovo, but he took no steps to implement it.


Six: Taking Up the Gun

In Bonn, the leading functionary of Rugova’s government in exile, Bujar Bukoshi, rejected passive resistance, and turned the radio transmitter he controlled to broadcasts supporting the KLA. Early in 1997, Albania’s banks were revealed as Ponzi swindles. Mobs looted government facilities, including military arsenals, and swiftly reduced the land to anarchic chaos, in which a Kalshnikov rifle could be had for a five dollar bill.

Bukoshi’s embryonic forces, consisting of a few hundred exiled policemen and soldiers, established themselves in Albania as the Armed Forces of the Kossovo Republic (F. A. R. K.), in competition with the KLA. Albanian students organized demonstrations against Milosevic’s refusal to implement the Vatican agreement on schooling, ignoring orders to desist from Rugova. Serb police crushed the demonstrations with extraordinary brutality.

KLA attacks, which by the Serb government’s claims had been occurring roughly once a week, and claimed ten Serb lives since 1995, began to take place almost daily at the start of 1998. In the old rebel district of Drenica, near the village of Likosane just before noon on February 28, a gunfight broke out between KLA men and a Serb police patrol. Once it was over, Serb police massacred the men of a wealthy Albanian clan considered leaders of the hamlet. Five days later, Serb police surrounded the family compound of a KLA leader and shelled it for hours, then went into the ruins and murdered women, children, and wounded, to a total of 58, including the KLA man, Adem Jashari.

These murders turned Albanian village elders throughout Kossovo against Rugova’s passive resistance. They put hundreds of their young men at the disposal of the KLA. In Drenica, and near the Albanian border, armed partisan bands appeared in such strength the Serb police retired to establish encircling roadblocks. Western diplomats threatened Milosevic with dire consequences if the murders by his police were repeated. Milosevic agreed to begin implementing the Vatican schools agreement, and to meet with Ibrahim Rugova. Simultaneously, Milosevic admitted the ultra-nationalist Chetnik party into a coalition government with his Serbian Socialist Party, and loosed his Serb police once again into Drenica.

This campaign was conducted with the same degree of atrocity that characterized previous operations by Serb police. In one typical incident near Gorjne Obrinje, after fourteen Serb police were shot in a fire-fight, a group of fourteen Albanian women, children, and old men found hiding nearby were shot point-blank by Serb police. Some 200,000 Albanians fled their homes to avoid the fighting, some to southern Kossovo and some to Albania. President Clinton ordered a show of force by U. S. warplanes over Yugoslavia, and in October, his pressure secured an agreement by which Serb Interior Ministry troops were to vacate Kossovo, negotiations with Kossovo Albanian leaders were to begin in earnest, and a body of diplomatic observers would enter Kossovo to monitor events. During the course of negotiating this agreement, Milosevic told a U. S. general that the way to bring peace to Drenica was to “kill them all.”

The monitored cease-fire brought many Kossovo Albanian refugees back to their homes. In Albania, the Kossovo government in exile’s small armed force was violently absorbed by the KLA; in Kossovo, KLA men began arresting and executing functionaries of Rugova’s “shadow state” as collaborators with Serbia. They also murdered about a dozen Serb civilians, and a Serb village mayor. By the start of 1999, fire-fights of company and even battalion scale between KLA guerrillas and Serb police were once more occurring.

Near dawn on January 15, battle broke out between KLA guerrillas and Serb police near the town of Racak. After nine KLA men were killed the rest fled. During the afternoon Serb police entered the town, raped and murdered two women, and murdered forty-three unarmed men and boys. Serb Information Ministry spokesmen in Pristina next morning invited Western journalists to visit the scene of a “successful” fight against the KLA; when they reported what they saw, Milosevic declared the KLA had fabricated the incident, and demanded the diplomatic observers quit Kossovo. The chief judge of the United Nations War Crimes Tribunal for Yugoslavia was denied entry to the country.

Seven: The NATO Intervention

NATO demanded the talks agreed to the previous October begin in February, and threatened military action to force compliance. The meeting at Rambouillet Chateau featured a severely fractured Albanian delegation; its principal factions (all of which hated one another) were Rugova’s adherents in the old LDK, old line Communist functionaries from that same umbrella group, and the KLA led by Hashim Thaci. After days of negotiation, Milosevic struck out about half the already settled agreement, substituting his initial demands, which the Albanians and NATO had already rejected, and forced collapse of the talks on March 18. Two days later, 40,000 Serb police and soldiers with 300 armored vehicles launched a fresh offensive into Drenica.

NATO air strikes commenced against Serbia on March 24. While these aimed at destroying Serb anti-aircraft defenses, Serb police and soldiers in Kossovo commenced a wholesale assault on the Albanians of Kossovo, aimed at driving them from the country by exemplary massacre. During the course of this campaign, roughly 10,000 persons, mostly young men, were murdered by Serb police and soldiers. Almost a million Albanians took to flight, either west to Albania, south into Macedonia, or into the mountains of Kossovo itself. Lightly armed KLA guerrillas could accomplish nothing against the Serb forces.

When Serb air defenses were disabled, NATO warplanes began attacks demolishing bridges, power stations, and the like in Serbia proper. With Serb police and soldiers forced to retire their heavy equipment to shelter in bunkers by NATO air bombardment in Kossovo, their murder squads became vulnerable to attack by Albanian partisans, many of whom were not, properly speaking, KLA, but village militia deployed by their clan elders. When Serb police and soldiers attempted to group together to overpower these guerrilla bands, the Serbs were savaged by NATO warplanes.

On June 3, Milosevic capitulated. Serb police and soldiers retired northward; NATO troops moved in. Kossovo Albanian refugees streamed back to their homes. Many set upon Serbs still remaining in Kossovo. NATO troops intervened to protect lives, but not property; even so, several dozen Serbs, many elderly, were killed. The overwhelming majority of Serbs resident in Kossovo fled north into Serbia, or into that small portion of northern Kossovo around the mines where they had long constituted the principal element of the populace.

A government for Kossovo, formed under NATO auspices, blended elements of the LDK and KLA, with the KLA’s Hashim Thaci emerging as Prime Minister, while Ibrahim Rugova, the nonviolent leader, found himself without power, or much prestige. The KLA has kept its word to disarm only poorly, and remains a police problem for NATO occupation troops. It has attempted to provoke guerrilla war in the adjoining areas of Macedonia which are largely populated by Albanians, but has had scant success there, either in baiting the Macedonian government into atrocious reaction to their activities, or in gaining wide support among Albanian people in those districts.

Postcript

This piece was written several years ago, which does not, of course, alter the body of facts it presents. In the interim, there does not seem to have been too much change. The remnant Serbian population of the district has been squeezed north and out, and the doing, while unwholesome, is about all that could be expected under the circumstances. There has been some friction between the K.L.A. and the NATO forces, but nothing approaching the scale of even the first stages of revolt against Milosevic. The situation is, by and large, about as good as could be epected, given the history and recent trauma of the place.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I take it you don't read the news very often because the content of
your post has completely been proved wrong. You are spouting crap that is outdated and no longer considered reliable. Get up with the times.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Why do you trust Ramsey Clark and not Michael Moore?
Here are a few websites to help you out. Oh, and buy the way, they are not from obscure bogus websites. They are from mainstream media mostly. You do realize that those of you who believe Ramsey Clark on this are a tiny, tiny minority don't you? I guess we should have let the Holocaust continue? You people are absolutely unbelievable?????? I wonder how you would have felt if it was your children over their?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3931141764/102-1336022-1675304?v=glance

http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/Sreb1.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/08/bosnia.grave/

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/11/bosnia.pit/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Europe/Bosnia/dozens.html
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Michael Moore does not make my decisions
neither on this nor the Iraq war.

He has his opinion, I have mine.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
54. Well then show us something that is convincing other than
websites from Ramsey Clark's own organization for Christ sake. How about something from CNN or ABC or NBC or BBC that is not out dated.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Nothing will ever convince you or most other Clark supporters
Already your suggestion that that information was all from Ramsey Clark's site is "off" because most of it wasn't. And for the few that were, it's not that difficult to extract the facts and research them. I'm sorry Quixote1818 but you're going to have to excuse me if I don't devote much time to trying to convince you. The record is stated for those who are interested in looking past the lies of the empire because they neither excuse, condone, apologize for, or accept them.

"something from CNN or ABC or NBC or BBC"... Ah yes, the same MSM that is unapologetically complicit in banging whatever war drums need to be banged. The record has very clearly been stated by the Left-leaning Progressives, formerly known as Liberals but now labeled "Fringe Leftists" by Moderates determined to shift our party to the right as they bend over backwards to whitewash the sins of corporations and empire yet you won't accept their word. The only one you can drag out is the poor hapless Michael Moore who was so thankful that Clark join the CNN feeding frenzy of him that's he's been so forever grateful that he promptly forgot every word he ever wrote about the horrors of the war against Yugoslavia.

Spend a little time on the legal sites. It is true that their arguments can't be boiled down to CNN's simplistic catchy soundbites about mass graves and WMDs but the information is there.



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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Sorry, your stuff is out dated. They found mass graves later. Where have
you been???

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. No Mass Graves! And worse. Our lies were exposed by a Swedish General
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 06:15 AM by Tinoire
Same neocons. Same liars. Same lies. Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Carlucci didn't give any more of a rat's ass about dead Muslims in Bosnia than they do in Iraq. The main thing they cared about was another precious pipleline (end note).

They even stuck to the mass graves lie for Iraq- after all if it was good the first time, why wouldn't it work a second time?

NATO's 1999 propaganda simply more effective than was the Bush administration's marketing of the Iraq war. And that's why all the gnashing of teeth & nuancing about how we would have waged a smarter and better war.

Had they uncovered any, you can bet your retirement that the certain candidates, especially Clark who led that war, would have been producing this photgraphic evidence of how much more moral our war was and how it had, in contrast to Bush's expedition, been waged to prevent REAL atrocities. But NOT ONE PEEP because there were none and they dared not risk the ridicule of the Left and a much more informed international community. Had they found even one, we would have had an army of journalists covering the mass graves to show the world how righteous our wars are.

After two years and 295 witnesses and 50,000 pages of transcript, the prosecution has proved zero....ZERO. All the forensic experts have reported back that NO mass graves exist. The Swedish general in charge of NATO's peacekeeping force has now said openly that there was no genocide and that it is the Serbs who are being ethnically cleansed. He even apologized to them later saying something to the effect that "they had gotten it all wrong".

Weep. Read these things and weep.

One important reason the other First World Powers refused to accompany us in Iraq, and would have refused despite all that mumbo jumbo from our Party that we would have built a better coalition is that we were exposed in Feb 2003 by the head of UN Military Observers (UNMOs) in Croatia, retired Swedish General Bo Pellnas who was not about to sit quietly while the US embarked on ANOTHER immoral expedition.

--
Part of the answer was provided in 2003 by retired Swedish Brigadier General Bo Pellnas, who was head of U.N. Military Observers (UNMO's) in Croatia, and—later—in charge of a monitoring mission to Yugoslavia sponsored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). He claims that the U.S. “fabricated evidence” against the Serbs both in Bosnia and Kosovo. Writing in the leading Swedish daily Aftonbladet, he warned that his experiences in the Balkans make him weary of American claims: “if the US were to present evidence of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, the countries of the Western world would have no way to substantiate these reports due to the technical superiority of the US.”

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic04/NewsST032304.html


=====


OSCE Official: Clinton Fabricated 'Evidence' For War Against Yugoslavia
SRNA
February 16, 2004
OSCE official says US falsified grounds for 1999 bombing

SOFIA -- Tuesday - The United States justified the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia with false claims of genocide being committed in Kosovo, an OSCE official and participant in peace talks during the war in the province said in comments published today. Bo Pellnas, a member of the OSCE mission in Belgrade, said there were some 1,200 OSCE observers in Kosovo who could confirm genocide did not take place, reports Sofia daily Monitor.......

================

US fabricated evidence in Yugoslavia, says former official
Any US evidence against Iraq should be viewed with skepticism



The US "fabricated evidence" against former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic during clashes between Serbia and Bosnia in the mid-1990s, according to a prominent and experienced international peacekeeping official who served there.

Retired Swedish Brigadier General Bo Pellnas, who was head of UN Military Observers (UNMOs) in Croatia, now says that the US should not be trusted. Pellnas says that he learned to distrust US-provided evidence during peacekeeping service in the former Yugoslavia.

Pellnas's misgivings are described in an article from the Swedish daily newspaper Aftonbladet.
Here is an English-language translation of this article:

In an interview with Sweden's leading news-wire TT, retired Brigadier Bo Pellnas claims that the US "faked evidence to suit their own interests."

"If the US were to present evidence of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, the countries of the Western world would have no way to substantiate these reports due to the technical superiority of the US."

These are the words of retired Brigadier Bo Pellnas, who says he witnessed the US "fabricating fact to suit their own needs." Pellnas says he witnessed this first-hand when he led an international force which safeguarded the borders between Serbia and Bosnia in the mid-1990s, where he gained a very good insight and understanding of US operations. "The technical superiority of the US gives their politicians the option of bringing forth fake evidence, in this case in front of the United Nations Security Council." ((Oh Powell, oh Powell!!))

Pellnas served in Yugoslavia during a time when US efforts, led by then Secretary of State Madeline Albright, presented evidence to the UN Security Council that Milosevic's Belgrade government ran unmonitored arms shipments. Pellnas claims that Albright's staff presented manipulated satellite photos to document false allegations, leading the Security Council to act in accordance with the US hard line against Milosevic.

"There might be a possibility that Albright thought the pictures to be true," says Pellnas, "but several incidents pointed towards the fact that the US lied." The US stood firm by their claims, refusing to show supporting evidence to Pellnas and other members of the peacekeeping crew.

"If the US were to come forth with evidence against Iraq which were "difficult to confirm," the permanent members of the Council will be put in a difficult situation, since they lack the sufficient tools to research and verify such claims."

Pellnas said he hopes that nations of the European Union make it their responsibility to build their own intelligence agency which has the capability to act as a counterbalance to the US. "It would be great indeed if the EU could act as a balance to the world's only true superpower, which acts alone these days."

In addition to his UN duties, Pellnas was also in charge of an international monitoring mission to Yugoslavia in 1994 sponsored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), and worked with the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia (ICFY), a group established in 1991 to find a peaceful solution to the region's conflicts.


http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,243586,00.html/
====

General sees no end to war in the Balkans

Louise Branson

Friday, Jan. 13, 1995

United Nations' chief international observer in former Yugoslavia, Gen. Bo
Pellnas went home to Sweden this week a sad and worried man. He sees no end to
war.

That assessment is summed up by the title of a soon-to-be-published memoir
about his Yugoslav experiences: "Without End?" He noted, "My cautious publisher
added the question mark."

The force he headed -- the largest observation force in U.N. history -- was
attached to the U.N. Protection Force and was charged with monitoring
operations in Croatia and Bosnia.

Arriving in November 1992, Pellnas said in an interview, he felt as if he were
caught up in "the middle of an elephant dance."

Before coming to the Balkans, he had commanded the Swedish U.N. peacekeeping
battalion in Cyprus and was chief of an international team supervising the
withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan. The former Yugoslavia has turned
out to be far more complex and much more dangerous.

"Never before have I been so often shot at deliberately," he said. He was
overwhelmed by Balkan duplicity -- "all these presidents and prime ministers
are lying to your face." He was frustrated by U.N. bureaucracy and by Western
politicians -- Americans in particular
-- for using cartoon imagery to define a
complex problem.

"You know what the Yugoslav civil war is all about -- it is greedy relatives
arguing about (Tito's) testament. Underlying this is a web of private and
political interests, personal ambitions, plus religious, ideological and ethnic
interests. This is what makes the place so difficult.
(snip)

In his view, the international community -- "which means major powers" -- has
tried "to get away with the least possible sacrifices." He believes this
underlies outsiders' calls for the use of air power in Bosnia, which he
dismisses as foolish.

"What are you going to bomb? Like Afghanistan, you have to understand the
strategic situation. If you wanted to bomb the Bosnian Serbs into submission,
you'd have to hit civilian targets. That would turn us into war criminals."


(snip)
Friday, Jan. 13, 1995 San Francisco Examiner
http://www.b-info.com/places/Macedonia/republic/news/95-01/jan13.mk

===

... « L’armée US ment comme elle respire » Le général de brigade suédois Bo Pellnas
déclare qu’il ne faut pas faire confiance aux Etats-Unis. ...

Translation: The US Army lies like it breathes. BG BO Bellnas declared that the United States must not be trusted
www.gulfinvestigations.net/IMG/pdf/france-irak-11.pdf

====
PACIFICATION FOR A PIPELINE:
EXPLAINING THE U.S. MILTARY PRESENCE IN THE BALKANS


Marjorie Cohn
Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Despite President George W. Bush’s rhetoric about withdrawing our forces from the Balkans, we can expect a strong continuing U.S. presence there. Why? It’s all about the transportation of massive oil resources from the Caspian Sea through the Balkans, and maintaining U.S. hegemony in the region.

Although NATO ostensibly bombed Yugoslavia to stop ethnic cleansing, the bombing was actually part of a strategy of containment, to keep the region safe for the Trans-Balkan oil pipeline that will transport Caspian oil through Macedonia and Albania. The pipeline is slated to carry 750,000 barrels a day, worth about $600 million a month at current prices.

Cooperation of the Albanians with the pipeline project was likely contingent on the U.S. helping them wrest control of Kosovo from the Serbs. The U.S. seeks to contain Macedonia as well, supporting both sides in the conflagration there. Military Professional Resources International, a mercenary company on contract to the Pentagon, has trained both the Kosovo Liberation Army and the Macedonian army. MPRI also supplied and trained the Croatian army in 1994 and 1995 before the Croatians cleansed more than 100,000 Serbs from the Krajina region.

The bombing was not aimed at ethnic cleansing. It was part of U.S.-run NATO’s eastward expansion as a counterweight to Russia, which wants the Caspian oil pipeline to run through its territory. NATO, created during the Cold War to protect Western Europe from the Soviets, should have disbanded after the breakup of the USSR.


(snip)

The U.S. has invested too much in the region to pull out. After the NATO bombing campaign, the U.S. spent $36.6 million to build Camp Bondsteel in southern Kosovo. The largest American foreign military base constructed since Vietnam, Bondsteel was built by the Brown & Root Division of Halliburton, the world’s biggest oil services corporation, which was run by Richard Cheney before he was tapped for Vice-President.

(snip)

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew22.HTM

==
Stan Goff, a personal friend and fellow Veteran for Peace, recently e-mailed me that the Milosevic debacle will go down in history as one of the most successful pieces of propaganda ever!

In 1999 we had been told that there were over 100,000 buried in mass graves. We were "supposedly" so certain of this we went to war (that's the story we were fed) which would imply that we knew where they were. Not one. 6 years later we're still supposedly looking for mass graves.

Progressives should run and scream from this Kosovo madness. It was a PNAC war and a used to set up some very nasty precedents for what we're doing in Iraq. Just reading the UN headlines about this case send shivers down my spine.

Milosevic Trial Sets precedent: US Granted Right To Censor Evidence - 12/2003
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. Reducing the civil war in Yugoslavia to the international dimension
is naive.

Bo Pellnäs:

"You know what the Yugoslav civil war is all about -- it is greedy relatives
arguing about (Tito's) testament. Underlying this is a web of private and
political interests, personal ambitions, plus religious, ideological and ethnic
interests. This is what makes the place so difficult.

"Logic is not applicable most of the time. How could it be when all the
leaders, and I mean all, are willing to have their people suffer to achieve
their respective objectives?"

http://www.b-info.com/places/Macedonia/republic/news/95-01/jan13.mk

BTW, "all the leaders" also refers to Milosevic.

And it seems that Pellnäs was calling for some form of intervention with ground troops in 1995:

"In his view, the international community -- "which means major powers" -- has
tried "to get away with the least possible sacrifices." "
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. So what about the rest of the NATO country's? Did they lie as well?
You are talking about a conspiracy theory that rivals those who do not believe the Holocaust happened. This would be impossible to cover up! Absolutely impossible!!!!! Use your common sense for Christ sake. And YES their were mass graves! What planet do you live on?


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/393114176...

http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/Sreb1.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/08/bosnia.g... /

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/11/bosnia.p...

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Europe...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Lol. WHERE ARE THE PICTURES???! 2005 Internet age. Photos please!
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 02:15 PM by Tinoire
Where are the pictures?

Just a bunch of words churned out by a complicit war-loving mainstream media.

This thing reeks so much that they won't even open Milosevic's trial for the world to watch!

Even the Nazi butchers, the engineers of the holocaust, were given an open trial. Even Israel, as determined as she was to convict Eichmann after his illegal kidnapping, gave him an open trial. But the US and the other First World powers involved in that illegal war can't. They don't dare. Their propaganda doesn't stand up to scrutiny and they know it.
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
74. On the internet.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. Mass graves. I asked you for photos of mass graves.
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 10:01 PM by Tinoire
Surely with all the talk of mass graves that led to this war you can find one! The 100,000s that were the pretext for this war.

For every picture of dead Albanians(?) you show me, I can show you dead Serbs from a conflict of atrocities that only escalated after NATO swooped in to liberate Kosovo. Those photos are of the dead from the barbarities that occured as a result of the NATO-escalated conflict after NATO stepped in on the pretext of mass graves and did the same thing they're doing in Iraq- causing ethnic tension to keep people at each others throats while they pillage and loot.

Mass graves please unless you prefer to spend all day swapping photos of combat and civilian dead because I have quite a collection of these ranging from the children deformed by depleted uranium to those killed by illegal cluster bombs.

They're enough to make anyone ashamed of the cowardly barbarism we showed by combing a defenseless civilian populace from the safety of the skies.
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Yes, you would have to wait for these dead to be buried.
Then you, like Pravda could deny they were victims, since they were left to be buried by their own people with there heads toward Mecca. People die during war? Who would have thought that. Clark did want to go in with ground troops but the politics of NATO and Washington determined otherwise. I've been to Clark rallies and witnessed people celebrate him for saving them and their families from the genocide of Milosevic. The war was predicated on the more than a million people being displaced by the Serbs. Maybe some would prefer to bemoan the large number of dead after the fact. Why look for mass graves when your expert has debunked them? Do you ever question the possibility that because you choose to believe something does not mean it's an indisputable fact. Propaganda is propaganda. Let's be rational and realize that Anti-US propaganda isn't true just because it is anti-US. As in most things, the truth is usually somewhere in between.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. So IOW there were no pre-existing mass graves if we have to wait
for the post-war dead to be buried and turn them into the mass graves we supposedly went to war about.

I'm not foolish enough to swallow everything the Serbs say, I know yhey're not angels but to see people on this forum blindly repeating the "evidence" that people like Wolfowitz fabricated to steal yet another country's resources is beyond disgusting.

Yes people die during wars. That is not the present discussion. And your story about Clark rallies is proof of nothing. Bush has Iraqis on his side too- what does that prove? He's got the entire gamut- from weeping women thanking him for having saved their honor from rape rooms (story exposed last week) and men talking about how their entire village was mowed down.

The present discussion is that the hullaballoo of mass graves was a lie used to launch a war as illegal under international law as the Iraq war is.

But you're correct that the truth may be somewhere in between- that's precisely why we have international laws about this sort of thing and trials afterwards to uncover the truth. In this case, NATO, led by the US, violated those international laws and is conducting their trial in the most secrecy it can muster. Those are just 2 things that should make thinking people go hmmmmmm.

A neoliberal war is as disgusting as a neoconservative war. The goals are the same and the lies are the same both offering the same choice between a "carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs". I won't condemn one and excuse the other simply because it happened under our watch when, once again, we cooperated with fabrications of the war-mongering PNAC.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. How many dead bodies and how to you want them stacked?
Since only Dead people will do, here are "some"...and I realize that this will not be even enough for you...as I can understand your need to see a whole mountain full! Has to be several thousand...and killed all at once would be better (a la Rwanda)! When one has to count here and there, the impact is just not, you know....not "that" bad....

Here's about three week's worth....but, I know.....that's just not enough for some taste....!
I know the following that I took the liberty of posting won't be at all "enough"...
So you can just go here and start counting.....
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/hrethnic.htm

November 1-7, 1999
Killings
November 1 – Unidentified persons in the vicinity of the new ambulance building in Obiliq killed a Serb named Zharko and wounded another Serb.
November 2 - An Albanian aged 69 was killed by unidentified persons in Gjakova. Two others were heavily wounded.
- Unidentified persons in the village of Dobërçan near Gjilan killed a Serb aged 65.
- The corpse of a Serb woman aged 69 was found by KFOR military police in the village of Strellc i Poshtëm near Deçan.
November 4 – At about 6.30 p.m., between the villages of Koshtova e Bobit and Zupç, unidentified persons opened fire on the car of Sami Haxhi Behrami (28) from the village of Kotorr near Skënderaj, living in Shipol near Mitrovica. Sami and his father had been to Koshtova (where they work as masons) and were on their way home. Sami was shot on his back and died after half an hour.
- The corpse of an unidentified person was found behind a restaurant in the village of Hajvalia near Prishtina.
- The corpse of an unidentified Albanian was found in the village of Pogragja near Gjilan.
November 6 - At about 8 a.m., a corpse was found in the vicinity of Deçan. KFOR specialists stated that the victim was a Roma aged between 40-50. He was shot with firearms.
November 7 – Unidentified persons killed Haki Imeri, a teacher with the “Kosova” Primary School, in the village of Vojnika near Skënderaj.
- During the evening hours, a Serb was killed in a mortar attack in the village of Pasjan near Gjilan. Later on, KFOR soldiers arrested 4 Albanian citizens.

Mass graves – reburials, exhumations – the identification of the killed
October 29 – The corpse of Gani Veli Haxha (46) from the village of Prekaz i Epërm near Skënderaj, living in the “Qendra” quarter in Mitrovica, was found in a mass grave between the villages of Vidimriq and Suhadoll. Gani was reported missing since April 14.
November 1 - 3 graves were discovered in the village of Tërdec near Gllogoc (2 in the fields of Sadri Miftar Tërdevci and 1 in that of Xheladin Hajdin Tërdevci). One grave was discovered in the fields of Halil Azem Morina in the village of Gllobar near Gllogoc.
November 3 - Tens of carbonized corpses were found in the house of Plak Hoti in the village of Krusha e Madhe near Rahovec.
November 5 - The corpse of Rabe Islam Morina (49) from the village of Sverka near Klina, killed by the Serbian police on May 2, was found at the cemetery of the “Guri” quarter in Malisheva. Two eyewitnesses have stated to the CDHRF in Malisheva that policeman Bozha Damjanoviq from the village of Kijeva near Malisheva was among the perpetrators of the crime.
- The corpse of Mujë Jashar Tafilaj, soldier of the “Mujë Krasniqi” 133 Brigade of the KLA was found in the vicinity of the Dubrava prison near Istog.
- A decomposed corpse was found in the village of Drelaj near Rugova, municipality of Peja, some 300 meters from the “Përparimi” Primary School. It is believed that the corpse is of a girl aged between 17-20.
November 6 - Adem Jashar Samadraxha (1958) and his son Florim (1980), who were killed by the Serbian police in the village of Javor near Suhareka, on June 8, were reburied in the village of Banja near Malisheva.
- During a visit to the photo exhibition in Rahovec, family members identified the corpse of Hysni Samedin Spahiu from the village of Opterusha near Rahovec. He was arrested by the Serbian forces in the village of Krusha e Madhe, in March 1999.
November 7 - The corpses of the following Albanians (38 civilians and 8 KLA soldiers), who were killed by the Serbian forces in the village of Shtutica and the other villages of Drenica, were reburied in Shtutica near Gllogoc: Halit I. Jusufi, Destan I. Jusufi, Bahtir H. Jusufi, Besnik H. Jusufi, Sami B. Jusufi e Shefqet F. Jusufi; Halim M. Zeqiri, Besim M. Zeqiri, Vahide M. Zeqiri, Kada M. Zeqiri, Sofije Xh. Zeqiri and Nazmi A. Zeqiri; Sejdi T. Beqiri, Ramadan T. Beqiri, Rizah T. Beqiri, Bajram Z. Beqiri and Zeqir V. Beqiri; Fetali Z. Ademi, Selim Z. Ademi, Bedri Q. Ademi and Esat S. Ademi; Nezir S. Bilalli, Avni N. Bilalli, Sefedin R. Bilalli and Bekim B. Bilalli; Sokol R. Berisha, Halit R. Berisha and Afrim B. Berisha; Elhami O. Shabani e Hysni O. Shabani; Qamil J. Bajrami, Fidaim K. Zena, Gani Xh. Hajra, Bali O. Baliu, Beqir B. Rrahamni, Xhevat Sh. Halili, Tahir Xh. Dani and Arsim H. Syla; Afrim B. Jusufi and Ismail I. Jusufi, Nysret R. Halili, Maliq F. Ademi, Fejzë F. Ramadani, Naim K. Salihu, Naim R. Musliu and Bajram J. Berisha.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Cdhrfnov1.htm

November 7-14,1999
Killings
9 November. –An unidentified corpse was found in Kllodernica (Skënderaj) in the afternoon.
- At about 17.00, a Roma (40) was found stabbed in his house 3 km east to Istog.
10 November. – In Çagllavica (Prishtina), an unidentified corpse was found.
11 November. – At about 20.00, ten Serbian paramilitaries (among whom Zoran Rademenkoviq, NN Zhiviq, Rasha Steviq etc.) intervened in the house of Shefki Hasani (1935) in Leshtar, whom they killed. They beat and threatened his wife and his daughter-in-law. The killer Rasha Steviq from Bolec (a village inhabited by Serbs) had threatened Shefki before.
- In Lupç i Poshtëm (Podujeva), the UNMIK police found two unidentified corpses.

Mass graves – reburials, identifications
11 November. — In Vrella (Istog), Sylë Dreshaj (1912) and his wife Xufa were reburied.
12 November. – In Jezerc (Ferizaj), Bajram Bega (37) from Ferizaj, killed by Serbian forces in March, was reburied.
13 November. - In Arllat (Gllogoc) the following were reburied: Rasim, Latif, Sefer, Mihane, Getoar and Emine Bujupi (a newly-born baby); Hamit and Shkëlzen Gashi and Bajram and Dali Bytyçi. In Gllobar (Gllogoc) the following were reburied: Beqir, Jakup, Bajram, Agron and Çerkin Krasniqi; Shaban, Flamur and Mehmet Morina; Abdullah and Osman Elshani; Hajzer Hajdari and Xheladin Tërdevci. All of them were killed by Serbian forces in different parts of Drenica.

ISTOG: In the mass grave in Rakosh, the following corpses were identified: Hasan Beqir Shala (1979) and Shani Avdyl Shala (1979) from Vuçak (Gllogoc) and Petrit Halim Kiçina (20) from Bainca (Gllogoc), arrested in August last year and killed by the Serbian militaries and paramilitaries in the massacre of the Dubrava prison (Istog).

Missing
SKËNDERAJ: There are no information on the whereabouts of Valdete Tafil Vojvoda (16) since 19 October, when she asked for medical help at the Mitrovica Hospital. Serbian doctors refused to offer her help and ever since she is missing.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Cdhrfnov2.htm

Nov 15-21, 1999
Killings
15 November. – In Prishtina, some children informed KFOR soldiers that they had found a corpse, who had been shot on his head.
- In the town park in Peja, the corpse of an unidentified woman, aged about 20, was found.

16 November. – At about 15.00, in the vicinity of the Technical Secondary School, in the northern part of Mitrovica, Serbs ran over Sevdije Xhemajl Ujkani (34), an employee with the Hygienic Institute in Mitrovica, and her daughter Edona (11), a pupil with the “Muharrem Bekteshi” Primary School, who were beaten to death. Several days before, Sevdije was threatened by Serbian paramilitaries to be killed if she did not leave this part of the town. In the northern part of Mitrovica, where Oliver Ivanoviq is a “prefect”, Serbs distributed a warning which says, “the Serb that does not attack his Albanian neighbours until we expel them from this part, is a traitor”, whereas another pamphlet says, “until 23.XI.1999 Albanians must leave safe and sound the northern part of the town”.

18 November. – The corpse of Jahir Sadik Agushi (1958) from Drenoc (Klina), who was in prison of Mitrovica e Sremit (Vojvodina), was sent home. Due to torture suffered, he died in the Belgrade Hospital.

20 November. – The corpse of a female was found by the Sitnica River, in the vicinity of Vushtrri, at the place called Shaban Aga.

21 November. - Zeqë Adem Hasaj (1953) from Kodrali (Deçan) died as an aftermath of torture exerted on him in the prisons of Serbia. He was released from the prison of Zajeçar on 14 November.

Mass graves – reburials, identifications,

15 November. – In Drenoc (Malisheva), Haxhi Asllan Krasniqi (12), killed by Serbian forces on 31 May, was reburied.

18 November. – According to a former political prisoner, the corpse of Napoleon Qemajl Guta (27) from Gjakova was identified. He was taken hostage by the Serbian forces and killed on 23 May in the prison of Dubrava (Istog).

19 November. – In the mass grave identified in the vicinity of Vidimriq (Mitrovica), the corpse of Fahri Jetullah Aliu (52), from “Qendra” quarter in Mitrovica, was found. He was arrested on 14 April by the Serbian paramilitaries. Ever since, there were no information on his whereabouts.

20 November. – In Vitia e Marecit (Prishtina), 29 Albanians killed by Serbian forces in the period 18-22 April, among whom 16 were soldiers of the 153 Brigade of the OZ Llap of KLA, were reburied. They are as follows: brothers Sefedin (1975) and Burim Ilaz Vitia (1980), Ali Vesel Vitia (1960), Besim Isë Vitia (1969), Lutë Shaban Vitia (1976), Demir Brahim Vitia (1979), Afrim Avdi Vitia (1981), Shaip Rizah Pacolli (1950), Baki Salih Pacolli (1955), Nezir Mustafë Pacolli (1955), Nazmi Qerim Pacolli, Rrahim Azem Gërbeshi (1966), Shabi Avdush Gërbeshi (1971), Rrahman Hazir Murati (1947), Ziaver Ali Vllasaliu (1972) and Feti Jahir Haxholli (1975); whereas 13 were civilians: Latif Vitia, Qamile Vitia, Arife Vitia, Tahir Vitia, Faik Vitia, Nazmi Canolli, Halil Canolli, Shaban Canolli, Enver Pacolli, Halime Pacolli, Bejtullah Metolli, Hafize Spanca and Fejzë Isufi.
- In Vërmica (Malisheva), Sadbere Gashi, killed during the Serbian shelling in the end of March while fleeing with her family in a tractor, was reburied.

21 November. – In Kamenica, 10 KLA soldiers, killed by Serbian forces during the month of April, 9 of whom from the Kamenica municipality, were reburied – brothers Sabri (1975) and Driton Krivaça (1977), Agush Isufi (1971), Besnik Maroca (1975) and Musli Imeri (1976) from Kamenica; Ramadan Kastrati (1958) from Karaçeva, Rafet Isufi (1964) Avdi Xhiçku (1971) from Hogosht and Xhelal Sopi (1979) from Petrit (Petrovc) as well as Shemsi Isufi (1965) from Rahovica (Presheva).
- In Stanoc i Epërm (Vushtrri), the following were reburied: Ibrahim Arif Prronaj and his son Afrim, Qazim Azem Prronaj, Myrvete Behxhet Haradinaj and Merita Emini – Haradinaj – all from the same village, killed by Serbian forces on 28 April in Dumnicë e Epërme (Vushtrri).
- In Dubovik (Deçan), Mujë Hasan Gërvalla, a KLA soldier, killed during the clashes reburied.
- The corpse of Dibran Rrahimi (50) from Dobratin was found in the house yard of Basri Hoti in Bradash (Podujeva); whereas the bones of Hamdi Maçastena (60) from Katunishta were found in the Perani field. He was identified according to his personal document found in the vicinity of the spot. Dibran and Hamdi were killed by Serbian forces in March this year.

RAHOVEC: Several days ago, the corpse of Xhemajli Gashi from Hoça e Vogël , a KLA soldier, killed by Serbian forces on 26 March, was found in the Izbishta mountain.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Cdhrfnov3.htm

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. I see. You can't find any pre-war evidence. You only prove my point
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 02:57 AM by Tinoire
The war against Yugoslavia "officially began" in 1998 on the false premise that there were mass graves containing 100s of 1000s of massacred people... and you bring 1999 :exasperating: All of it post-bombing.

Do you now understand why I rarely respond to your posts?

Retired Swedish Brigadier General Bo Pellnas, who was head of UN Military Observers said there were some 1,200 OSCE observers in Kosovo who could confirm genocide did not take place

No mass graves. No WMDs.

General Bo Pellnas, who was head of UN Military Observers says he witnessed the US "fabricating fact to suit their own needs."

No mass graves. No WMDs.

Retired Swedish Brigadier General Bo Pellnas, who was head of UN Military Observers and participant in peace talks during the war in the province said said US falsified grounds for 1999 bombing

No mass graves. No WMDs.

Retired Swedish Brigadier General Bo Pellnas, who was head of UN Military Observers said there were some 1,200 OSCE observers in Kosovo who could confirm genocide did not take place

AND THEN HE WARNED about the 'US coming forth with evidence against Iraq which would be "difficult to confirm"'.

====

And before I go to bed to rejuvenate myself for the much more interesting task of helping non PNAC loving-Progressive politicians take my country back, here's a sweet example, just one out of many, of the media lie eventually tripped up by the truth but barely a mention of these stories in the states, so thorough was the media deception.

First part is the media lie. Second part is the truth coming out.

The evil that men do: the massacre of Srebrenica
July 9, 2000
Reporter - Richard Carleton. Producer - Howard Sacre.

It is five years almost to the day since a small town in Bosnia called Srebrenica became synonymous with evil, an evil now being re-lived at the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague.

In 1995 at least 7000 Srebrenican men and boys were herded into trucks by Serbian troops and driven away to their deaths. They were lined up and systematically shot.

At the time the town was under United Nations protection, a so-called safe area which proved to be unsafe in the most disastrous way.

On this tragic anniversary Richard Carleton returns to Bosnia and joins an expert international team now seeking forensic evidence of the massacre.

He's there when a mass grave yields some of its secrets
(snip)

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2000_07_09/story_193.asp?MSID=1a8798c2989041098132974dd0a18d1d

It turned out Carleton had misrepresented this passionate moment at the graveside.

    Richard Carleton: In an act of unimaginable savagery, five years ago this week, the muslim men and boys of Srebrenica were tied up, blindfolded and shot. We know this because that’s how many of their skeletons are now being found in scores of mass graves.
    - 60 Minutes, 9 July 2000
    Watch video »


Trouble was they weren’t Srebrenica victims and Carleton knew it.

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s852834.htm

February 28, 2002
Journalist Admits Lying in Srebrenica Documentary

VETERAN 60 Minutes reporter Richard Carleton has admitted he had misled and lied to viewers by showing footage from another massacre site to illustrate a story about the massacre of Srebrenica.

(snip)

But under cross-examination by counsel for the ABC, Media Watch presenter Paul Barry and former executive producer Peter McEvoy, Mr Carleton conceded he had knowingly used footage of a morgue and a mass grave site far away from Srebrenica to illustrate the Channel Nine report

Asked by barrister Terence Tobin if he had misled viewers, Mr Carleton said: "In the technical meaning of the word misleading, yes"

Asked had he lied, he said: "In so far as the meaning of the word lie is taken to mean misleading, yes"

But Mr Carleton denied he had behaved unethically as a journalist and said the footage had enhanced viewers' understanding of the 1995 massacre of Muslim residents by Bosnian Serbs.

(snip)

http://www.politikforum.de/forum/archive/8/2002/03/3/15421

Now just in case you're missing the geography here... Massacred Serbs were shown as Bosnian Muslim victims.

But hey, it was Clinton neo-liberal war to expand the free-market so what are a few lies when it's our own party? .. This too must surely depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

For others and lurkers interested in learning more about the media manipulation for the war against Yugoslavia (and yes these seem people have remained consistent and accused the Bush Admin of the same thing for the war against Iraq which was, by the way, planned at around the same time and by the same people as the war against Yugoslavia)

* Partiality In Conflict Reporting: The Media's Secret Shame?
http://wwics.si.edu/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/media/12.htm

* FOREIGN POLICY Number 93, Winter 1993-94 p.152-172.
DATELINE YUGOSLAVIA: THE PARTISAN PRESS
by Peter Brock
Available to subscribers here: www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=1385

But reposted here: http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosta/autori/brock.peter/partizan.press.html

* Seeing Yugoslavia Through a Dark Glass:
Politics, Media and the Ideology of Globalization

by Diana Johnstone
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/grattan_healy/johnston.htm

* CONTEXTUALIZING HATE
The Hague Tribunal, the Clinton Administration and the Serbs
Raymond K. Kent Emeritus Professor of History, University of California at Berkeley

http://agitprop.org.au/stopnato/19990830kent.php
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Kent-summary.html

and of course the superb Noam Chomsky!!

=====

Humanitarian Intervention?

By Jim Burkholder, Past-President, Veterans for Peace

The public relations gurus of our government (Departments of State, Defense, Congress, and the White House) are making wide use of the term "humanitarian intervention" when they speak of our military activity in Kosovo and the rest of Yugoslavia. When we wish to disguise a distasteful medicine we sugar coat it. When we wish to disguise the factual aspects of war we now call it humanitarian intervention, an oxymoron of the highest order.

How do we intervene in a conflict in which we were the principle instigator? How can one call it humanitarian when we fire high explosive weaponry such as cruise missiles, cluster bombs, and depleted uranium shells on a populated target. Those whose lives were affected adversely even those whom we professed to be helping, could not call our assistance humanitarian. We never will know how high the civilian casualties in the target areas were, But, we profess great pride in that, for us, it was a bloodless war..

Our intervention in the Balkans began in the late 1980’s at the instigation of our financial and industrial interests. Quietly our government set about destabilizing the relatively good economy of Yugoslavia. On November 5, 1990, Congress passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Act which became law when President Bush signed it. One section of that law stopped all financial assistance from the US to Yugoslavia within six months. Its provisions were so stringent that it has been referred to by the CIA as a signed death warrant and was also cited in their analysis stating that a bloody civil war would ensue in Yugoslavia..

Other provisions of that law required a cessation of financial activity favorable to Yugoslavia on the part of the Word Bank and International Monetary Fund. We also promoted secession of the various Yugoslav Republics by requiring separate elections within each of those republics and demanding US State Department approval of election procedures and returns before any further aid could be resumed to individual republics..

(snip)

Despite the sanctions which barred the furnishing of military assistance and weaponry to Yugoslavia, in 1993 arms and military intelligence were furnished to Croatia by the US. That same year, Croatia was given military advisors from the corporation titled Military Professional Resources, Inc. (MRPI), a group of US retired high ranking military personnel with close ties to the Pentagon. With their assistance, the Croatian Army, in July, 1995, was judged combat ready. That month the US Secretary of State and the German Foreign Minister at a meeting in London approved a plan for Croatian military action against Serbs living in Bosnia and Croatia. On August 4, 1995, with air cover provided by NATO aircraft, the Croatian forces attacked the Serbs who were long time residents in the Krajina area of Croatia, displacing somewhat in excess of 350,000 Serbs and murdering about 14, 000. The US ambassador to Croatia hastened to state that this action was not ethnic cleansing since that was done only by Serbs. In the meantime, our government was actively courting the Albanians to grant us bases within their territory for which we would, and did, provide arms and assistance to their offspring, the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA)..

(snip)

ABOLISH WAR submitted by Jim Burkholder.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/interstatement.htm

And that's my final post to you on this subject. ABOLISH WAR. STOP WHITEWASHING NEOLIBERAL WARS PLANNED BY, INSTIGATED AND CARRIED OUT BY THE PNAC CROWD.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. Your premise that The war against Yugoslavia "officially began" in 1998
is inaccurate....

And you are confusing the civil war which was going on for some time and the NATO war did not "officially start" in 1998....nor was it based on hundreds of thousands of dead bodies...

The NATO war started in March of 1999. Prior to that there was a log of negotiations and humanitarian funding provided by the US and 40 other countries.

The war started in March of 1999, and it was based on stopping an active plan of Genocide by Milosovic that was being carried via displacement, starvation, destruction, and yes, murder as well.

http://www.refugees.org/news/crisis/kosovo_u0998.htm
September 1998
In mid September, the situation in Kosovo is getting worse and the lives of thousands of innocent people are at risk. Serb forces continue to pound villages in northern and western Kosovo, effecting over half of the province's population in the last seven months. International aid agencies estimate that between 270,000 and 350,000 people have fled the fighting, as many as 250,000 remaining "internally displaced" inside Although their plight has generated worldwide recognition, international attempts to foster a diplomatic resolution to the conflict have failed to yield tangible results.

According to the Associated press, there is talk of possible, eventual Nato-supported military action ranging from the deployment of troops along the Albania- Kosovo border, to air strikes, to the deployment of ground troops, but humanitarian organizations remain skeptical that decisive U.S., European, or Nato-supported action will come soon. In the mean time, daily reports of horrendous human rights violations, massive destruction, and increasing bloodshed document the dire prognosis for Kosavars "contained" in the crisis by recently erected border controls.

On September 16, the New York Times reported that Serbian forces were "rounding up men and boys from ethnic Albanian villages and refugee camps in Kosovo, an act that US officials fear could be the prelude to their execution, as happened during the war in Bosnia." One week earlier, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, Julia Taft said at a press briefing, "Without a cease- fire, without a pull-back from this intrusive fighting, there will be 100,000 to 200,000 casualties looming in the months ahead."

Still, there are no decisive plans by the U.S., NATO, or European allies to avert the current and impending disasters with military action. The U.S. is "considering a variety of options" for getting emergency aid into Kosovo and continues to support diplomatic interventions and the preservation of Yugoslavian borders.

On September 16, Serbian and Albanian leaders reported heavy fighting in the area between the towns of Kosovska Mitrovica, Podujevo, and Vucitrn, north of the capital, Pristina. German Defense Minister, Volker Ruhe, stated that the West could resort to military action "within three to five weeks," if Milosevic fails to comply with an impending U.N. Security Council Resolution designed to put an end to the conflict. According to U.N. officials, the Resolution will not explicitly authorize military action.

On September 17, the government of Montenegro began implementing a plan to send refugees from Kosovo to Albania. Over 4,000 refugees being held in the village of Meteh, Montenegro, were transported in busses to the Albanian border point of Vermosh.

On September 18, Ethnic Albanian Leader, Ibrahim Rugova, gave his preliminary endorsement to a 3-year U.S.-backed "temporary" plan to restore local autonomy to Kosovo (stripped by Milosevic in 1989). According to the associated press, Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic "supported" the plan aimed at "normalizing the difficult and risky situation and halting the attacks and the use of force."

On September 21, amidst renewed Serbian attacks in the Drenica region, Ethnic Albanian leaders released their version of the U.S. supported "interim" peace proposal. Under the arrangement, Kosovo would become an "independent entity equal" to Serbia and Montenegro, with its own courts, police, and central bank. Its status as a province in Yugoslavia would be retained temporarily and negotiated in the future. Serbian officials rejected parts of the proposal but, reportedly, agreed to release their own version in the upcoming week.

On September 22, the New York Times reported that the "worsening plight" of refugees and internally displaced people from Kosovo was "increasing the possibility of NATO intervention." Britain and France urged the U.N. Security Council to finish drafting the Resolution designed to make (Serbian) "compliance mandatory," and raise the "specter of military force." According to U.S. officials, the pending resolution reflects an emerging consensus in favor of military action, however, "NATO allies have not yet reached an agreement on the use of force."

---------------
http://www.refugees.org/news/crisis/kosovo_u052799.htm
Another week of crisis and torment for Kosovar Albanian refugees:
May 1999 - still no war

The surreal pattern of refugee flight repeated itself this week. The surging thousands of refugees entering Macedonia and Albania over the weekend became--on Wednesday--a trickle. And thousands of refugees reportedly massed in the "no-man's land" on the Serbian side of the Macedonia border were gone without a trace on Thursday morning.

The more than 30,000 refugees who entered Macedonia in a five-day period said they were fleeing intensified "ethnic cleansing" by Serbian forces in Kosovo.

During the week, several human rights reports documented massive rapes, torture, and massacres inside Kosovo. A UN Population Fund report cited "alarming accounts of rape and abduction of Kosavar women refugees." The report decribed the emotional trauma the women felt because rape "carries tremendous stigma in their society." The report said "the weight of evidence collected from interviews with the most recent refugees leaves room for the most somber perspectives concerning the risks facing the Kosovar women still in Kosovo."

As USCR has long urged, the international community has begun to grapple with the prospect of nearly 800,000 refugees facing the harsh Balkan winter, which begins in October Refugees in tent cities--and unknown hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons hiding in the mountain forests of Kosovo, their villages destroyed--have no means to protect themselves from the elements

------------
June 1999
http://www.refugees.org/news/crisis/kosovo_u060499.htm
There are currently an estimated 782,100 refugees and displaced persons in the region. This includes 443,300 in Albania, 247,800 in Macedonia, 69,300 in Montenegro, and 21,700 in Bosnia. As of June 3, 76,475 refugees have left the region through the humanitarian evacuation program. Some 40 countries have offered 137,000 places for Kosovar evacuees.
------------------
http://www.hrw.org/reports98/kosovo/
he NATO bombing campaign
NATO's bombing campaign lasted from March 24 to June 10, 1999, involving up to 1,000 aircraft operating mainly from bases in Italy and aircraft carriers stationed in the Adriatic. Tomahawk cruise missiles were also extensively used, fired from aircraft, ships and submarines. The United States was, inevitably, the dominant member of the coalition against Serbia, although all of the NATO members were involved to some degree - even Greece, which played a crucial role despite publicly opposing the war. Over the ten weeks of the conflict, NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions.

The proclaimed goal of the NATO operation was summed up by its spokesman as "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back". That is, Serbian troops would have to leave Kosovo and be replaced by international peacekeepers in order to ensure that the Albanian refugees could return to their homes.

German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer claimed that the refugee crisis had been produced by a Serbian plan codenamed "Operation Horseshoe". While the existence of a plan of that name remains controversial, the United Nations and international human rights organisations were convinced that the refugee crisis was the result of a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing. A postwar statistical analysis of the patterns of displacement, conducted by Patrick Ball of the American Association for the Advancement of Science <3> (http://shr.aaas.org/kosovo/pk/toc.html), found that there was a direct correlation between Serbian security force operations and refugee outflows, with NATO operations having very little effect on the displacements.

Milosevic may have hoped to achieve "Serbianization" by expelling Kosovo's Albanian inhabitants. One possibility is that he wished to replace the Albanian population with refugee Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia.

-----------------
http://www.osce.org/kosovo/documents/reports/hr/part1/
Recognizing that the Kosovo crisis was in large part a human rights crisis, the mission had a mandate to monitor, investigate and document allegations of human rights violations committed by all parties to the conflict. By the time the OSCE-KVM stood down on 9 June 1999, its Human Rights Division had amassed hundreds of in-country reports, and had taken statements from nearly 2,800 refugees.

The analysis reveals a pattern of human rights and humanitarian law violations on a staggering scale, often committed with extreme and appalling violence. The organized and systematic nature of the violations is compellingly described. Surveying the entire period of the OSCE-KVM's deployment, it is evident that human rights violations unfolded in Kosovo according to a well-rehearsed strategy.








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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #82
91. This seems to be a balanced view, try this.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20010619.html
Clinton was asked by outside groups to intervene. Whether they were true or using him ,I don't know. Perhaps he, along with the NATO leaders, felt the humanitarian need was to great.
http://www.yurope.com/zines/nasa-borba/posta/20/0053.html
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. You literally sound bloodthirty! Wow.....
Like I said before....a few points that you choose to ignore, cause all that will satisfy you are to see dead bodies...which means the genocide had to have happened to the tune of 100,000 for you to be satisfied. That is horrible! That nothing else will do for you.

Kinda like calling the police because your husband has threatened to kill you, and has beaten you up severely several times in the past....but the police responds that they can't come to your house....until the crime is actually committed...
---------------
http://www.refugees.org/news/op_eds/042599.htm
Genocide does not require gas chambers or even mass graves. A favored tactic is calculated mass starvation. That is what is happening in Kosovo.
---------------
http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_koso.htm
Did the Serbs commit genocide?
Civilian populations are increasingly being targeted during recent civil wars. However, atrocities must match certain specific criteria before they are considered genocide. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as "certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such. The proscribed acts include killings, causing serious bodily or mental harm, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, forcibly transferring its children to another group, or deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or in part."

Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia during the mid 1990s started as mass expulsions of civilians. It escalated to include internment in concentration camps, mass executions, rapes, etc. There was a clear policy by the Serbs "to exterminate Muslim Bosnians as a group..." Their actions were generally considered to be genocide. There is a general consensus that widespread atrocities were also committed by the Muslims and the Croats (largely Roman Catholic). But the level of their war crimes did not reach genocidal proportions.

There appeared to be a consensus of human rights investigators that the quantity and type of documented atrocities proved that genocide was committed by the Yugoslavian government against the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.

---------------
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Current_News214....
By early May, 90 percent of all ethnic Albanians in Kosovo had been expelled from their homes, the State Department says, 900,000 driven across the province’s borders and 500,000 more displaced inside Kosovo. Most of those remaining have been chased into hiding in forests and mountains, huddled together in villages penned in by snipers waiting to be allowed to flee, or captured, their fate unknown.

Although killing and torching were plentiful the Serbs’ most potent weapon was fear. The seemingly random, flamboyantly public killings of the first few days meant that as the campaign progressed, all it took was a handful of armed, masked Serbs to drive thousands of people from their homes, rob them and send them off in caravans, their houses in flames.

-----------------------

Civilians killed by bombing campaign of Kosovo--(this will really seem like a small amount to you, since you seem to need a lot of dead bodies. Casualties of civilians due to NATO bombing (which if one looks at the overall plan by Malosovic to get rid of the Albanians....was relatively a small number--therefore it appears that 500 civilian deaths caused by the bombing itself may have saved thousands if not hundreds of thousands of others (I am sad to even be talking like this....something that I am being forced to do!):
http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/nato061300.htm
V Casualty Figures

53. In its report, Civilian Deaths in the NATO Air Campaign, Human Rights Watch documented some 500 civilian deaths in 90 separate incidents. It concluded: "on the basis available on these ninety incidents that as few as 488 and as many as 527 Yugoslav civilians were killed as a result of NATO bombing. Between 62 and 66 percent of the total registered civilian deaths occurred in just twelve incidents. These twelve incidents accounted for 303 to 352 civilian deaths. These were the only incidents among the ninety documented in which ten or more civilian deaths were confirmed." Ten of these twelve incidents were included among the incidents which were reviewed with considerable care by the committee (see para. 9 above) and our estimate was that between 273 and 317 civilians were killed in these ten incidents. Human Rights Watch also found the FRY Ministry of Foreign Affairs publication NATO Crimes in Yugoslavia to be largely credible on the basis of its own filed research and correlation with other sources. A review of this publication indicates it provides an estimated total of approximately 495 civilians killed and 820 civilians wounded in specific documented instances. For the purposes of this report, the committee operates on the basis of the number of persons allegedly killed as found in both publications. It appears that a figure similar to both publications would be in the range of 500 civilians killed.







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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Here's some more reporting
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/10/kosovo.crimes/

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- War crimes investigators have exhumed the bodies of 2,108 ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, a fraction of the thousands estimated killed during a brutal crackdown on the province by Yugoslav and Serb security forces, a U.N. prosecutor said Wednesday.

Carla Del Ponte, the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia, briefed the Security Council in New York with the tribunal's preliminary findings.

"This figure does not necessarily reflect the total number of actual victims, because we have discovered evidence of tampering with graves," Del Ponte said. "There were also a significant number of sites where the precise number of bodies cannot be counted. In these places steps were taken to hide the evidence. Many bodies have been burned."

_______________________________________________

from the Srebrenica massacre:
http://www.gendercide.org/photo1.html
http://www.gendercide.org/photo2.html

http://www.gendercide.org/case_srebrenica.html

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #80
106. I see you forgot to mention that the expulsion of Albanians-
was exactly concurrent with the bombing campaign.

Does anything seem at all strange about this info from one of your posted sources? Like frinstance any information of WHERE THESE PEOPLE WERE FOUND, not just where they were reburied?

11 November. — In Vrella (Istog), Sylë Dreshaj (1912) and his wife Xufa were reburied.
12 November. – In Jezerc (Ferizaj), Bajram Bega (37) from Ferizaj, killed by Serbian forces in March, was reburied.
13 November. - In Arllat (Gllogoc) the following were reburied: Rasim, Latif, Sefer, Mihane, Getoar and Emine Bujupi (a newly-born baby); Hamit and Shkëlzen Gashi and Bajram and Dali Bytyçi. In Gllobar (Gllogoc) the following were reburied: Beqir, Jakup, Bajram, Agron and Çerkin Krasniqi; Shaban, Flamur and Mehmet Morina; Abdullah and Osman Elshani; Hajzer Hajdari and Xheladin Tërdevci. All of them were killed by Serbian forces in different parts of Drenica.

ISTOG: In the mass grave in Rakosh, the following corpses were identified: Hasan Beqir Shala (1979) and Shani Avdyl Shala (1979) from Vuçak (Gllogoc) and Petrit Halim Kiçina (20) from Bainca (Gllogoc), arrested in August last year and killed by the Serbian militaries and paramilitaries in the massacre of the Dubrava prison (Istog).

What are you trying to pull here, anyway? THREE PEOPLE is a 'mass grave'? The 800 buried in the soccer field outside Falluja is a mass grave, for heaven's sake.

There are no mass graves in Kosovo, period. What there was was a terrorist campaign waged by the Albanian KLA against the Serb, Jewish and Rom minorities of Kosovo. The response to it was brutal and stupid reprisals by Milosevic which only served to make the situation worse. (See any account of US occupation forces making house raids in Baghdad to get the general flavor). Hundreds, perhaps thousands, on both sides were killed in the process.

Can I get an answer to the following question from the imperial apologists (which I have asked many times on this board, BTW) WHAT IN BLEEDING HELL WAS WRONG WITH THE PLAN OF THE SERBIAN PARLIAMENT TO TURN KOSOVO OVER TO U.N. ADMINISTRATION?


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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #106
116. Gee, thanks for the label.
I don't know what was wrong with it. I guess something was huh? What do you think? Maybe tonight I can look into it and respond better, right after my imperialism club meeting.

I have a question for you. Who or what in your opinion, are the most reputable sources for info on the issues we have been discussing?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #116
132. Best overall reference
The New Military Humanism, By Noam Chomsky

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/oct00hardesty.htm

New Military Humanism (NMH) is full of factual gems like this that either never made it into the mainstream media or they did but no one seized on their significance. Unlike the mainstream media, Chomsky uniformly condemns atrocities, whether perpetrated by our official enemies or theirs. This is in refreshing contrast not only to the standard media/government line, but also much of what passes for the Left. Two distinct trends emerged on the left, there were the soft left social democrats such as Ian Williams and Christopher Hitchens who would accept at face value the most enormous tales of Serbian “genocide” and there were the old-line CP-COC types who labored to present Milosevic as a genuine socialist. Some of the pro-Serbian sentiment had a factual basis in the partisan warfare conducted by Marshall Tito and the Communist partisans against the Nazi occupiers of Yugoslavia (who were aided by large sectors of the Croatian population plus many Bosnian Muslims and Kosovar Albanians). Even though most historians estimate that anywhere from 500,000 to 1,000,000 Serbs, 30,000 to 60,000 Jews, and others were killed by the Nazi occupiers during WWII, some lefties have engaged in their own particular form of Holocaust denial on this matter. Once an entire people is demonized all the little nuances, truths, and complications of history go out the window. It wouldn’t do to see the Serbs as having been victims, even in the past, for that might give rise to historical perspective (such as who was the dominant group in Kosovo in 1940) and cramp the morale of our daily hate the enemy sessions. Thomas Friedman of the New York Times declared that we were at war with the entire Serbian nation and that we could pulverize them back to 1389. As Chomsky points out this sort of ethnic cleansing is an old American tradition.

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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #106
120. Back it up
Can I get an answer to the following question from the imperial apologists (which I have asked many times on this board, BTW) WHAT IN BLEEDING HELL WAS WRONG WITH THE PLAN OF THE SERBIAN PARLIAMENT TO TURN KOSOVO OVER TO U.N. ADMINISTRATION?

Show me a link.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #120
131. OK
http://kosovo99.tripod.com/kosovo1.htm

The two peace plans of March 23 thus remain unknown to the general public, even the fact that there were two, not one. The standard line is that "Milosevic's refusal to accept...or even discuss an international peacekeeping plan was what started NATO bombing on March 24" (Craig Whitney, New York Times), one of the many articles deploring Serbian propaganda -- accurately no doubt, but with a few oversights.

As to what the Serb National Assembly Resolutions meant, the answers are known with confidence by fanatics -- different answers, depending on which variety of fanatics they are. For others, there would have been a way to find out the answers: to explore the possibilities. But the enlightened states preferred not to pursue this option; rather, to bomb, with the anticipated consequences.

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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
119. Milosevic WAS given an open trial
In The Hague. In December of 2003. Unless of course standing before the ICC counts as being part of the whole corporate neo-con conspiracy theory.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. And THERE was an INVESTIGATION
Into any criminality on the behalf of Clinton, General Clark, Albright, et al.

They were cleared of any wrongdoing. We're talking about certain sites bombed, DU, civilian deaths by the bombing, etc...

The full report is right here: http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/nato061300.htm

I Background and Mandate

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) conducted a bombing campaign against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) from 24 March 1999 to 9 June 1999. During and since that period, the Prosecutor has received numerous requests that she investigate allegations that senior political and military figures from NATO countries committed serious violations of international humanitarian law during the campaign, and that she prepares indictments pursuant to Article 18(1) & (4) of the Statute.
Criticism of the NATO bombing campaign has included allegations of varying weight: a) that, as the resort to force was illegal, all NATO actions were illegal, and b) that the NATO forces deliberately attacked civilian infrastructure targets (and that such attacks were unlawful), deliberately or recklessly attacked the civilian population, and deliberately or recklessly caused excessive civilian casualties in disregard of the rule of proportionality by trying to fight a "zero casualty" war for their own side. Allegations concerning the "zero casualty" war involve suggestions that, for example, NATO aircraft operated at heights which enabled them to avoid attack by Yugoslav defences and, consequently, made it impossible for them to properly distinguish between military or civilian objects on the ground. Certain allegations went so far as to accuse NATO of crimes against humanity and genocide.
Article 18 of the Tribunal’s Statute provides:
"The Prosecutor shall initiate investigations ex officio or on the basis of information obtained from any source, particularly from Governments, United Nations organs, intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations. The Prosecutor shall assess the information received or obtained and decide whether there is sufficient basis to proceed".

On 14 May 99 the then Prosecutor established a committee to assess the allegations and material accompanying them, and advise the Prosecutor and Deputy Prosecutor whether or not there is a sufficient basis to proceed with an investigation into some or all the allegations or into other incidents related to the NATO bombing.


The report goes into depth in various areas...

Here's the table of content....each item expanded on when one clicks the heading on the content page....

Table of Contents

I Background and Mandate
II Review Criteria
III Work Program
IV Assessment

General Issues
Damage to the Environment
Use of Depleted Uranium Projectiles
Use of Cluster Bombs
Legal Issues Related to Target Selection
Overview of Applicable Law
Linkage Between Law Concerning Recourse to Force and Law Concerning How Force May Be Used
The Military Objective
The Principle of Proportionality
Casualty Figures
General Assessment of the Bombing Campaign
Specific Incidents
The Attack on a Civilian Passenger Train at the Grdelica Gorge on 12/4/99
The Attack on the Djakovica Convoy on 14/4/99
The Attack on the RTS (Serbian Radio and TV Station) in Belgrade on 23/4/99
The Attack on the Chinese Embassyon 7/5/99
The Attack on Korisa Village on 13/5/99
Recommendations


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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. "One Death Is A Tragedy. A Million Deaths Are A Statistic"
-Josef Stalin
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Question: What is coming thru the wires in your tin foil hat as to
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 11:08 PM by AchtungToddler
exactly what Wes Clark was trying to accomplish for the numerous Mysterious-and-Always-Perfectly-Aligned-With-Each-Other-Power-Brokers (MAPAWEOPB's) when he was advocating desperately for intervention in Rwanda?
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Good for Wes. Now,do some reading here, ok? The tinfoil beckons you....
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 12:03 AM by JohnOneillsMemory
If you are going to whip me with my "tinfoil hat" you are obliged to share a little reading.

This is the tip of the iceberg, a drop in the bucket of info:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm
(CIA Angola Station Chief Under Bush I Tells All-1987)
This is before the slaughter in Gulf I, the sanctions against Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands, and the 100,000+ of Gulf II)

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
(US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII)

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html
(The Secret Team: the CIA and its Allies In Control)

A few US bankers and corporations paid for the rise of Hitler and financed over half the steel in his war machine. 50,000,000 died in Europe.

One of the bankers was **'s grandfather Prescott Bush. Consider the numbers involved in THAT complicity.
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/listservs/spoons/woodco-greens.archive/woodco-greens.0006
(History of Financing Nazi Germany by US and English Bankers)

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html
(The Nazi Hydra In America 1919-)

Consider the suffering of the Republican/neo-con eugenics economy in this country.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/uop-ur2071703.php
(UPENN Study: US Ranks 27th in Social Progress Due to Mass Poverty)
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
124. What does that have to do with Clark?
Show me what that has to do with Gen. Clark.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. I have my problems with Chomsky
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 10:58 PM by fujiyama
but Ramsey Clark is on a different level.

It's one thing to defend scummy people in a court because even scummy people need to be legally defended, but there's a disturbing pattern in the way Clark has defended so many terrorists, dictators, and war criminals. I'm sorry, but war criminals from Rwanda, Milosevic, the blind Shaek accused of the first WTC bombing, Saddam, a Nazi war criminal (a bodyguard of a concentration camp), the list goes on. And Clark has made it clear that he's defended them not just because they have to be defended by someone - but because he feels they are "persecuted" by the US government. Yeah, that's right, the US govt is "persecuting" a Nazi war criminal.

Fuck him. He did good things back in the day but he degenerated into a nutcase. As a liberal, I oppose all brutality and needless violence - whether by the US, or any other nation.

I myself had some differences with Clinton on the war in Serbia, but trust him and Wes Clark more on these matters than Ramsey Clark.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. "I oppose all brutality and needless violence"- Sure, I do too.
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 12:06 AM by JohnOneillsMemory
What is your problem with Chomsky? He studied US history for decades.
Read my links below and see if you have less trouble with him.

Does this mean the US government has not destabilized dozens of governments, toppled democratically elected leaders, armed terrorists, formed death squads, and trained torturers for the last 60 years?

If this is in fact the case, as many CIA insiders and people suffering these things in the target countries report, doesn't that make Ramsey Clark's criticism exactly reflect your stated values?

This is the tip of the iceberg, a drop in the bucket of info:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm
(CIA Angola Station Chief Under Bush I Tells All-1987)
This is before the slaughter in Gulf I, the sanctions against Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands, and the 100,000+ of Gulf II)

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
(US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII)

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html
(The Secret Team: the CIA and its Allies In Control)

A few US bankers and corporations paid for the rise of Hitler and financed over half the steel in his war machine. 50,000,000 died in Europe.

One of the bankers was **'s grandfather Prescott Bush. Consider the numbers involved in THAT complicity.
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/listservs/spoons/woodco-greens.archive/woodco-greens.0006
(History of Financing Nazi Germany by US and English Bankers)

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html
(The Nazi Hydra In America 1919-)

Consider the suffering of the Republican/neo-con eugenics economy in this country.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/uop-ur2071703.php
(UPENN Study: US Ranks 27th in Social Progress Due to Mass Poverty)
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. But the real question is
did the Holocaust really happen?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Amen FrenchieCat! "Don't tread on me...I take no shit!"
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 02:19 AM by autorank
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. Pointless jibe but thanks for the other info you did post.
The other stuff you posted above was good stuff and what I was looking for.

The 'holocaust denial' jab was really pointless self-satisfying insults that offered nothing. How about saving that for trolling over at freeperland and respecting requests for info? Thanks.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
28. please enlighten me; why is the real question wether or not the holocaust
really happened?

i'd say more interesting questions are what exactly happened that led up to the holocaust, what happened during the holocaust, who were the victims, who supported it, who looked the other way, who did benefit from it...
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. that's easy
what happened during the holocaust?

innocent folks were killed


who were the victims?


Jews, Gypsies, Communists, and gays


who supported it?

most of the German people through action or inaction...


who looked the other way?

most of the German people and the Allies because the Allies were focused on winning the war

who did benefit from it?

imho, nobody...

I hope that wasn't a rhetorical question....
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. Don't you know IBM supplied computers to the Nazis,
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 11:53 AM by rman
to help them manage the logistical nightmare that was the selection and transportation of the victims of the holocaust - mechanical computers, and punch cards designed specifically for the purpose and printed in the US. IBM doesn't deny this, they just downplay it.

The Nazi war effort was supported financially by large corporations, including US corporations (don't tell me you don't know about Presscot Bush).

(see the documentary "The Corporation" www.thecorporation.com)



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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. Uh
What does your reply have anything to do with what fujiyama brought up? When did he deny CIA death squads and goverment overhaul specialists? Exactly how do your links "prove" that Rwandan genocide aids and Nazi war criminals are being "persecuted"?
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
87. I'm really not disputing
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 04:02 AM by fujiyama
that the US has an ugly past (and present for that matter).

I'm just saying that I think Ramsey Clark has destroyed all credibility by rushing to the defense of various terrorists and war criminals.

As for Chomsky, I think he has interesting things to say, and overall s quite brilliant. Perhaps "problems" isn't quite the word I was looking for. I'd say I have some differences with Chomsky though on certain issues, but I certainly haven't seen him rise to the defense of war criminals (except perhaps in the case of Milosevic, though I'm not as familiar with what Chomsky had to say about him) as in the case of Clark.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
125. So?
What does that have to do with the matter at hand? No one is denying that the US has used the CIA to topple democratic governments and actively aided terrorists of all stripes.

I fail to see how questioning Ramsey Clarke's judgement and Noam Chomsky amounts to denying such things happened.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. Nonsense, but Barbara Boxer compared wars, dictators in the Rice
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 01:30 AM by robbedvoter
hearings:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/politics/19cnd-rtex.h...
"My last point has to do with Milosevic. You said you can't compare the two dictators. You know, you're right; no two tyrants are alike. But the fact is Milosevic started wars that killed 200,000 in Bosnia, 10,000 in Kosovo and thousands in Croatia, and he was nabbed and he's out without an American dying for it. That's the facts. Now I suppose we could have gone in there and people could have killed to get him. The fact is not one person wants either of those two to see the light of day, again. And in one case we did it without Americans dying. In the other case, we did it with Americans dying. And I think if you ask the average American, you know, was Saddam worth one life, one American life, they'd say, "No, he's the bottom of the barrel." And the fact is we've lost so many lives over it. So if we do get a little testy on the point, and I admit to be so, it's because it continues day in and day out, and 25 percent of the dead are from California.
We cannot forget. We cannot forget that.
Thank you. "

Ok, who's more credible? Barbara Boxer of Ramsey Clark?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Not to mention Michael Moore was for Wes Clark. If Moore thought
Clark had done anything wrong I have no doubt he would not have supported him. I am sure Moore investigated all this outdated BS we are seeing recycled again here today that should have been buried a long time ago. That's the problem with the Internet. Old websites never get taken down even when they are known to be full of crap.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. got any sources for the debunking of this "outdated BS"?
or are we supposed to just take your word for it?
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. Got any legitimate sources
backing up your belief that Slobodan was a great, wonderful man and the invasion of Bosnia was unjustified?

Seriously, let's see something other than second-rate blogs and questionable pages of links.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. black-and-white world view

Who ever claimed that "Slobodan was a great, wonderful man"?

You seem to think that is the only alternative to him being a dictator.
Reality is not like Holywood; more often then not it's not good vs evil, but just two crooks fighting over wealth and power. Surprisingly, in spite of both being crooks there's plenty of opportunity for false accusations.


Reuters article
http://www.globalpolicy.org/wldcourt/tribunal/2001/0409chom.htm

Noam Chomsky comments
http://www.zmag.org/chomskyonelec.htm
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
104. From the Chomsky article
Serb dissidents, to the extent that their voices are heard here, are saying pretty much the same thing. In a fairly typical comment on BBC, a Belgrade university student said: "We did it on our own. Please do not help us again with your bombs."
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. Lets see something from the Mainstream Media Please!
I posted several websites above from CNN and BBC talking about the mass graves that were found. Had we not got involved their would have been many more. Thank God you didn't have your way.

I would love to see you guys post something from the mainstream media that is not out dated. They may not be perfect but at lest they watch each other like hawks as you saw with what happened with CBS. They are competing for news and careers are made when someone breaks a story that will bring down a president and expose all of NATO!!!! If your stuff was legit it would have been all over ABC, BBC, NBC, CBS etc. I can't believe we are even having this debate based on the kind of websites you all are using. I have never heard of these sites before and for all I know they are Serbian.

And I suppose the Holocaust never happened as well. Give me a break!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. why only MSM? what reason do you have to trust them?
-
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Try reading my WHOLE post not just the title
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. oh btw it's not about whether the holocaust happened or not
-
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. Yes, you are right because this time we prevented a holocaust. thanks
to Clinton and Clark and Albright and Cohen and every other level headed person involved.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Not sure if Cohen deserves much
of the credit, but the others on your list certainly do.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
88. I just want to interject this here...
Rice's reply was priceless, that no one could just "go in and nab Hussein". But we DID "nab him". And then we stayed. I'm surprised Boxer let her off on this point.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
103. The US and Western Europe started the wars
by backing the Nazis* Itzbecovic and Tudjman after deliberately enacting economic policies designed to destroy Yugoslavia. Boxer happens to be wrong here, just as Kucinich was wrong to support the flagburning amendment.

*and I mean Nazis as in honest to god left over from WW II Nazis, not generic lefty swearword Nazis.

And why don't any of the oh so righteous defenders of imperial bullying in the Balkans have anything to say about the Krajina area of Croatia, from which 350,000 Serbs were expelled with the murder of 14,000? This was with the assistance of US mercenary companies.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. Serbia was a fascist state committing genocide. Talk to people
who were there, in Bosnia for example, and look at consensus research. NATO countries did not need to manufacture a split up of Yugoslavia. It was inevitable when Tito died. The response by the Serbs was just appalling. Sorry, I won't take the bait and I don't think anyone doing an objective review of the situation will either.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Absolutly Right!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Interesting how conventional views require no evidence
You can score some points simply by repeating what is already accepted as common knowledge.

It's also interesing how these "dictators" are convicted in the public mind before they are convicted in a court of law. Makes you wonder what the public knows that judges don't know.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. maybe all hitler needed was a better publicist
eom
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #31
86. There is little doubt in my mind
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 03:37 AM by fujiyama
Were Hitler captured alive today, Ramsey Clark would be the first in line to defend him.

You know what he said in his defense of the Auschwitz guard (and Nazi war criminals in general)?

Another Clark client was Karl Linnas, an ex-Nazi concentration camp guard in Estonia (where he had overseen the murder of some 12,000 resistence fighters and Jews), who was being deported from the US to the USSR to face war crimes charges. Clark again lost the case, but again went to bat for his client in the public arena, questioning the need to prosecute Nazis "forty years after some god-awful crime they're alleged to have committed."

He was in good company though, with who also defended Linnas. Guess who that was?

Pat Buchanan.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. Interesting how conspiracy theories
need only some crackpot on a blog expressing his opinion to be accepted as a fact.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
44. Hi there. Solipsism is a great strategy to support any view point.
rman, My comment on Serb behavior was not made lightly. Sorry if it challenges some outdated information by sacred icons of the left.

The basis for my statement was speaking to people who were actually on the ground in Bosnia for humanitarian purposes for several years, who traveled back and forth from the US for that purpose. These folks had no agenda other than humanitarian service. Their evidence was based both on their extensive observation and also research. In addition, I actively followed things in the world press at that time.

It occurred to me that you might need a research point that was neutral. Here is a link from Heverford College, a Society of Friends college in Pennsylvania. Their link will take you to some interesting places. They are certainly not biased and the Quakers have a very long history of supporting human rights.

http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports.html

Sorry, there are monsters in the world and simply resisting the United States hardly qualifies someone for sainthood. Open your eyes and your mind and take a look at this link.

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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Thanks for the info. My inquiry goes beyond 'how much atrocity.'
Obviously, many are focused on a yes/no of whether the situation warranted a NATO intervention.

Just as the situation in Iraq has many other facets besides a dictator's body count, I want to know what the facets are in the Balkans.

I don't know of any US intervention that was altruistic. Even the rise of Hitler and subsequent defeat have US complicity all over it.

I distrust simple answers that equal 'the power elite did the right thing.' They don't operate that way unless something is in it for them like the tsunami aid and expanded US military presence plus propaganda efforts to justify the New American Empire.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
64. I agree with that, although there is some compassion even among them.
"compassion" in the normal sense of the word, not the *ian perversion.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #50
75. Here's some more data from Human Rights Watch...and others...
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Ethnic_Cleansing18.htm#P208_31476
"ETHNIC CLEANSING" IN THE GLOGOVAC MUNICIPALITY
On the way to the bus station...a police officer said to me:
"The war started in Drenica, and we are going to end it here."
- Glogovac resident

Table of content...
THE TOWN OF GLOGOVAC
Forcible Displacement into Glogovac
Killing of Civilians
Robbery, Extortion, and Looting
Arson and Destruction of Civilian Property
Destruction of Food Stocks
Detention and Abuse
Forced Expulsion
-------------------------------------

COUNCIL FOR THE DEFENCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
KËSHILLI PËR MBROJTJEN E TË DREJTAVE E TË LIRIVE TË NJERIUT
QUARTERLY REPORT ON THE VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS IN KOSOVA IN THE COURSE OF JANUARY - MARCH 2000

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/CdhrfMar2000.htm
----------------------
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Current_News214.htm
Hounding more than a million Albanians from their homes accomplished two purposes for the Serbs.

First, it removed the guerrillas’ base of support and cover, in effect, drying up the sea in which the guerrilla fish swam.

With the Serbs controlling the borders and scorched earth along the highways, they could isolate and mop up the Kosovo Liberation Army in the forests and mountains. Young men viewed as potential rebel recruits were singled out and either killed or removed to an unknown fate.

In the longer run, depopulating Kosovo defused a demographic time bomb for the Serbs: Albanians already made up 90 percent of the population and were reproducing at a far higher rate than the Serbs.

Although killing and torching were plentiful, the Serbs’ most potent weapon was fear.The seemingly random, flamboyantly public killings of the first few days meant that as the campaign progressed, all it took was a handful of armed, masked Serbs to drive thousands of people from their homes, rob them and send them off in caravans, their houses in flames.

Independent accounts indicate that there have been mass killings of from a dozen to roughly 100 people in more than 40 places. The State Department now puts the death toll at 4,600, a number only likely to increase as time goes on and more is known. But even that horrifying statistic indicates a goal of depopulation rather than extermination; it is low by comparison with the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia, where in one massacre alone, at Srebrenica, the Serbs were accused of killing 7,000 people.

To amplify the effect of the killings in Kosovo, Serbs gunned down Albanians in the streets and in their homes, sometimes at random, sometimes from target lists. Bodies have been mutilated, with ears cut off, eyes gouged out or a cross, a Serbian symbol, carved into foreheads or chests.

In many places the Serbs compounded the fear with humiliation. Older men were beaten for wearing the white conical hats of the Albanian mountains or forced to make the Serbian Orthodox three-fingered sign. One refugee convoy passed row on row of white conical hats set atop fence posts.

Two months into the campaign now, the terror has been devastatingly effective and virtually unhampered by NATO’s bombing campaign, judging by accounts from refugees, relief workers and officials from international agencies, NATO and the United States Government.

By early May, 90 percent of all ethnic Albanians in Kosovo had been expelled from their homes, the State Department says, 900,000 driven across the province’s borders and 500,000 more displaced inside Kosovo. Most of those remaining have been chased into hiding in forests and mountains, huddled together in villages penned in by snipers waiting to be allowed to flee, or captured, their fate unknown.

More than 500 villages have been emptied and burned, the State Department said.

And there was another element to the pattern: The Serbs made every effort to insure that those who fled abroad would not come back. Almost universally, refugees reported that they had been not only robbed but also systematically stripped of all identity papers, rendering them, in effect, stateless nonpersons, at least in the eyes of the Serbian government, and making it difficult for them ever to return home. Even the license plates of their cars—the Serbs kept the good ones—were methodically unscrewed at the borders. "This is not your land—you will never see it again," the refugees were told. "Go to your NATO—go to your Clinton."
------------------
More data....on human rights abuses, killings, etc...
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/hrethnic.htm
and more...
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-index.htm


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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #75
94. Thanks for more info...this thread was meant to examine the context
of the NATO involvement for any evidence of similarities with the 'toppling' of Saddam which we know wasn't a mercy mission but was certainly sold as one.

I don't deny the ugliness in the Balkans, just trying to place it in the seemingly continuous 200 year curve of American Empire because this is what makes Wesley Clark, a potential Dem candidate, the next potential Ike-style president and keeps Clinton's image as the new FDR.

Since I can't see Wesley Clark writing General Smedley Butler's essay 'War is a Racket', I am suspicious of the implied morality play in the Balkans just as we have learned how Bush**s adventures are opportunistic. Wesley has some other...interesting employers and associates that are worth examining, too. I'm looking for the links I saved during the heated primaries and will add them. Sorry to leave that hanging for the moment. I hope we'll take the time to keep this discussion going.

Of course this complicated period between the Bush's under Clinton will continue to be examined before 2008 with the motive of better knowing the players.

I hope you continue to share your info, FrenchieCat. We need all we can get.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. I never said Milosovic is a saint
It's just that when two tugs fight, it's usually the bigger one that wins.

Thanks for the link.

(btw i really don't see what solipsism has to do with this)
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. I see your point; but there are thugs and then "thugs."
If you gave me a choice in 1934: be a citizen of Great Britain or Germany, I would have chosen Great Britain. GB was certainly a "thug" nation with its colonial system but Germany was positively ugly, beyond mere thuggery. Hence, the battle between thugs can have some great gaps. As the British lost their empire, they walked away (after far too long). As Hitler lost the war, he engaged in a scorched earth policy on his own soil.

As far as US versus Serbia...I mean you make it sound like we're a nation that would invade a country for no reason related to self defense, sacrifice our own people in a brutal way, and kill, lets say 100,000 civilians through "collateral damage." Wait, that's a bad example. I guess the assignment of thug is contingent on the situation. I do think that Serbia was run by a monster and behaved in a monstrous fashion and that we were the non thugs during that intervention but I agree with your general point.

With regard to solipsism, I over interpreted your sentence: "You can score some points simply by repeating what is already accepted as common knowledge"...and assumed you were denying the extent of the Serbian carnage. I assume you don't and I apologize, although what's a little pseudo-intellectual name calling among friends.

Cheers
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
93. ok, so
given that according to the official view Milosovic was/is a thug, and NATO/UN allies were/are righteous, it doesn't harm to expose some of the thuggery of the "civilized world". We already knew Milosovic is a thug of sorts.

I think the main reason why we see our criminal leadership as relatively harmless is that we to do benefit from their exploitation of the world - it's not the cheapest way but probably an easy way to keep us in line. It is to be expected that we prefer our golden cage to the iron cage that some small-time crook has installed.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
33. Let's be clear about one thing
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 07:57 AM by Tom Rinaldo
Clinton ordered U.S. military action in the Balkans and the Democrats in Congress overwhelmingly supported it. That war also had the support of all of the N.A.T.O. nations in Europe, in stark contrast to Bush's invasion of Iraq. That by no means proves that they all were right. That should not establish in anyone else's mind that those actions were morally defensible. I firmly believe everyone should do their own soul searching when it comes to questions of war. But it does speak to who this argument should be directed to by those who feel U.S. intervention in the Balkans was wrong.

If Ramsey Clark were to run for President in 2008 as the Democratic nominee I think he would do a fair bit worse than John Kerry did, and I think we would face the certainty of another 4 more years of Republican rule as a result. That does not prove that Ramsey Clark is wrong or in any way argue against his right or even necessity to speak out, or for others to back his arguments if they are consistent with their own beliefs. By all means have the debate, but remember who it is being held with. The debate is not simply between Ramsey and Wesley Clark,

I am sorry but I will not have time to participate much online for two or three days due to pressing issues that need attending to off line. That is one reason why I did not comment on the actual content of this discussion, I simply do not personally have time to pursue it right now.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Ramsey Clark is a nutcase.
I don't need to intelligently debate the merits of his arguments since usually the premises are bunk. In the rules of argument, if a premise is incorrect, and argument does not need to be countered with a cohesive, well-developed argument.

I'd take Wesley over Ramsey any day.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
35. A Slobodon apologist, I see
I guess we should have let the poor man continue his genocide. After all, it wasn't hurting us. And it's not like we had widespread support amongst other European nations to stop him as well.

Let me ask you something, if this is some grand NATO conspiracy to, as you put it, station the NATO Legions around the world, and to justify invading Iraq, then why is it all of those allies we had in Bosnia and Kosovo passionately opposed going into Iraq? Just curious.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. It's France's fault, naturally!
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Not an 'either/or' situation. How about genocide AND opportunism?
Logic suggests that the reality of the extent of the atrocities on the ground in the Balkans is NOT the whole story, just as in Iraq.

I tried to make that clear in my original post and still the thread degenerated into scornful accusations of holocaust-denying and arguing over body count numbers.

Saddam was all these thing AT ONCE:
monster,
US employee,
justification for regional dominance,
propaganda meme in domestic US political wars.

(Some of us) have learned much about the complex economic, political, psychological dynamics of war during the Bush** years that I believe are applicable to the past, as well.

Question: How is this lesson applicable to NATO (even more complicated) and the transition from overt Cold War to the PNAC's New American Empire under Clinton plus Wesley Clark? I'd like to know and many others would, too.

Where are there continuities and where are there differences and who wanted what and when?

Much can be learned OR people can practice dismissive insults.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
39. Thanks for posting this & everyone involved in the discussion
This is a fascinating thread.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. It's good to learn both sides
You'll be seeing it repeated a zillion times as Wes Clark's enemies can't seem to get enough of him. :hi:
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
43. so, is Bill Clinton a war criminal too?
why stop there, anyone who voted for the resolution of either war is also a war criminal right? Crazy posts like these are precisely why we lost this election. sickening....how many dem's do you have to beat up in order to feel good about yourself?

btw, who's your 'savior'? I'm sure you have one...come on, fess up?

this crap is flamebait, plain & simple.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Pssst! We won the election.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. yeah, yeah, problem is Kerry's not in the whitehouse...
;)
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. We won the election. BBV, Jim Crow conditions, and MSM propaganda
are why the wrong guy is in the White House again. Not requests for information and clarification on a collective intelligence website.

Wake up and learn that the game is more complicated than the bogus Blue Dem vs. Red Repub sports team bullshit. We've been played by a good cop/bad cop routine. Zell Miller, Lieberman, Feinstein. Right?

Many of us have learned that we have been infiltrated and diverted by the 'other side' and examining our so-called friends and heros is long overdue if we're going to save our Constitutional republic from the fascist Military Industrial Congressional Media Complex.

War criminals are war criminals no matter whose 'team' you think they are on. The pragmatics of 'solidarity' and the attending groupthink GOT us into the mess we are in.

I DO understand that the neo-con Repubs want nothing more than to see the Dem party splinter as the infiltrators are rejected.

I'd like to see the Dem party re-stocked with REAL Dems who reflect the American values in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Geneva Conventions, UN Charter, negotiated treaties, AND 'green' ecologically sustainable development.

A tall order, I know. But worth the effort. The alternative is a police-state that kills the planet. We are already there.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. and just who are the "real dems"?
still waiting....
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I'm trying to analyze the candidates actions for evidence of my values
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 12:50 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
AND avoid anymore potential Trojan Horses who might put the cover story of false 'American Virtue' back over the oceans of blood.

I realize we aren't going to get Dennis Kucinich in the White House and pray we don't get a Tommy Franks either.

Is this a problem for you and if so why?
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. ok, Dennis Kucinich is one...any others?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #53
68. Dennis Kucinich doesn't even buy this conspiracy stuff about Kosovo
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 09:11 PM by Quixote1818
However I do agree that it could have been taken on differently and possibly without war. This site has a good naritive on Kucinich who understood what was going on in Kosovo including the ethnic cleansing but felt we could have gone about things differently and perhaps prevented war. In hind site it's hard to say if Kucinich was right or not but I think he has the right tone when it comes to starting war. It should be left as an absolute very last resort. I am not sure if we did that in Kosovo but it did seem like we did at least try harder than Bush did in Iraq. Bush really wanted war in Iraq and would do anything to get it. Clinton I believe tried several options before he and the rest of NATO decided to attack. This is a great site and does a nice "neutral" job explaining things.

http://www.muhajabah.com/muslims4kucinich/archives/006280.php
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
69. Kucinich voted for the Iraq Liberation Act
1998
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
73. can't be Barbara Boxer, see # 12. If she ain't real, who then?
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 08:58 PM by robbedvoter
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E_Smith Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #51
63. good cop/bad cop?
so Kerry was simply playing good cop? does this have to do with skull and bones? I think this is too elaborate of a conspiracy theory that all these Dems are in league w/ the Repubs to promote corporate rule... some of them might be in league, but not as a conspiracy per se, but because that is there political stance. In other words there has been a rightward shift of the Dem party, but it isn't a grand conspiracy.
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
72. Gee, that's the kind of Dem I want too.
That's why I support Wes Clark. I find most of the analyses of Wes Clark to be just like John O'Neill's memory, revisionist and self-serving. Anyone who can't see the difference between Milosevich and Saddam Hussein is as foolish as Ramsey Clark. Some people get better with age, some go downhill fast. There was a time when I respected Ramsey Clark.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #72
95. (self-delete-double posting glitch)
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 11:34 AM by JohnOneillsMemory
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #72
96. Just FYI: I refer to FBI John O'Neill, not the SBVFT Kerry smearer.
As to the accusation of revisionism, using what we know now to re-examine the past and try to connect the dots is an important tool of understanding.

The word 'revisionism' can be used like the phrase 'conspiracy theorist,' to keep people from looking and understanding.

The facts of American complicity in the rise of Hitler is a good example. Since WWII is used to portray the US as a 'white hat,' I would like to examine the 'white hat' aspect of US-led NATO's multilateral actions in Kosovo more closely since this refreshed portrayal of the US is a large part of much of Bush**s domestic support for a unilateral war.

That's all. I hope you see the both my integrity of intent and the merit of my effort.
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. I'd respect your integrity if you would respect Clark's.
Clark did not make policy. Any policy that leads to war should be reviewed. I am against revision that would make a martyr of Milosevic. He could have avoided the war but chose not too. He was brutal and one of the most inspirational stories is how his countrymen rose up and threw him out after his control of the military was weakened. I would like to see the people of this country come to the realization that B$$$ has abused our military and throw him out. Clark tried and we had our chance, but enough people put nationalism ahead of common sense and we face four more years of abuse of our system.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #96
115. "American complicity" and the rise of Hitler
I seem to recall the after effects of WWI, the Great Depression, the German people's nationalism movement etc led to the Rise of Hitler. But you want to make the US the bad guys?

What country should get the white hat? Just curious.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #96
117. Just FYI: I refer to FBI John O'Neill
A great loss -- RIP
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
70. Kosovo was not Wesley Clark's decision it was Clinton's
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 09:07 PM by Quixote1818
Even if their is any truth to any conspiracy theory about why we went to war in Kosovo (Which I doubt seriously) why blame Wes Clark? It was Clinton and the other NATO leaders who had the power. Also, the difference between Iraq and Kosovo is the fact that Kosovo was sold to us as a humanitarian war and we now know their absolutely WERE mass graves. Iraq was sold to us as an eminent threat that harbored WMD's and threatened our National Security. Low and behold their were no WMD's. Not to mention at least we went in with a real coalition in Kosovo. The comparison of what happened in both Wars based on how and why we went not to mention what we found is apples and oranges???? Is it possible some BS was pulled? Perhaps but at least their WAS SOME truth to what they sold us and I have NO DOUBT at least some innocent lives were saved plus Clark did such a good job we didn't loose one American life!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #70
89. But, see, that's the "difference" between neocons and neolibs.
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 04:22 AM by Carolab
Whether or not we go in "with allies".

The justifications are all selective but the end-result is always the same: globalism.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. Were We Supposed To Allow Slobo To Slaughter The Indigenous Population?
eom
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. Think about it.
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 08:29 PM by Carolab
We're not always "Johnny on the spot" when it comes to stopping human rights abuses...

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/hrcn1061.doc.htm
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #99
107. So your answer was yes then? n/t
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #107
118. No, that's not what I meant. That does not logically follow, does it?
Edited on Wed Jan-26-05 09:08 PM by Carolab
My point is that if we always jumped in to stop human rights abuses we'd have been a lot busier--and what about the humans rights abuses we, ourselves, are responsible for?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #118
122. This is going no where... :)
How would you have voted as an elected representative on a resolution to use military force in Kosovo as part of a NATO coalition to end the slaughtering that was going on there?

I think I know how you will answer, but its like pulling teeth ;)

I tire of this discussion to be frank. I have never seen any compelling evidence that the west should have supported Milosevics Government instead of taking steps to end its brutal reign. Above I mentioned a book with first hand accounts by a very experienced war correspondent Chris Hedges. Worth a read I assure you. You could also review reports from the people who attempted to negotiate with Milosevic. He was a liar and a snake and a racist and people were being starved, driven from their homes, and massacered by the Serb military under his command.

Certainly some action was required, our elected representatives and President at the time made a very difficult decision based on the best information they had. They all have to live with that decision, that vote. Both Clinton and Clark are very highly regarded by the people they rescued (over 1 million), seems they can sleep at night.

But its so easy for anonymous internet warriors to cast stones. Sigh.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. Read what I said. I didn't say we SHOULDN'T have gone to Kosovo.
I SAID we were entirely too selective on WHERE WE DO GO to help. JEEZ.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. Sure, we can agree on that.
There is no exact formula for war or for politics in general. Thats why we hope our elected officials are men of integrity. But it amazes me how this particular campaign is a favorite topic for attack here.

Here is a case where we intervened in the midst of a human crisis, not too late, and actually got the job done with no American casualties.

The civilians that died due to errant bombs was of course a tragedy too. Imagine this guy Milosevic, thought he would fight NATO all by himself there, he certainly didn't give a rats ass about who was going to die, whether we intervened or not.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #118
126. Maybe I should just let Bill Clinton explain it
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #118
127. Serbs won't allow NATO peace keepers into Kosovo prior to bombing
The NATO airstrikes came one day after senior U.S. envoy Richard Holbrooke failed in a last-minute attempt to persuade Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to agree to a U.S.-drafted peace plan for Kosovo, which would grant local autonomy to ethnic Albanians but not independence.

Serb leaders have continued to reject a key element of that plan: allowing 28,000 NATO-led peacekeepers into the province to police the peace.

NATO Secretary-General Javier Solana blamed Milosevic for prompting the airstrikes, saying the international community had pursued a diplomatic solution for months, to no avail.

"The time has come for action," Solana said in a statement.



http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9903/24/kosovo.strikes.03/index.html
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #99
111. If I Arrive At An Fire And I Can't Save Everybody
But There Are Few I Think I Can Save Should I Let Them All Die Because I Can't Save All Of Them?


Call it the fireman's dilemma....
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #99
112. I wish we had been "Johnny on the spot"
in Rawanda and so does Wes Clark. Humanitarian intervention is what I want our armies used for outside legitimate defense and disaster relief.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #89
108. Just as a frame of reference
What is the opposite of Globalism?

Would it be Caveism? :evilgrin:

I am just trying to get a handle on your view of the world.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
78. Ramsey Clark is a bloodthirsty war criminal,
a carpetbagger, an opportunist and a political jackal. Oh wait...I was thinking of someone else. Never mind.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
97. Howard Zinn is also a good read
to re-educate about US history.
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PatrioticOhioLiberal Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
138. See my comment here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1525658

The question I raise is applicable to this thread as well as the one I posted on earlier...and I really would like to hear reasoned responses.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
151. Read this and weep, JohnoNeillsMemory
http://tinyurl.com/sjp6

The Washington Post
The Unappreciated General
International Herald Tribune The General Who Did Too Good a Job

By Patrick B. Pexton
Tuesday, May 2, 2000; Page A23

Nine years ago, Washington put on a lavish victory parade for the conquering troops of Desert Storm. The nation cheered the men and women who, in a
six-week air campaign and 100-hour ground war, with only 148 combat deaths, defeated a ruthless dictator who had seized and pillaged a neighboring land. The generals who led an unwieldy multinational coalition to triumph were feted, toasted and mentioned as presidential material.

Not so for the general who won Kosovo, although he too ousted a
murderous tyrant who burned and occupied a neighboring land. This general also led a cumbersome multinational coalition to victory in a short war--this time with zero combat deaths. But Gen. Wesley Clark, supreme allied commander Europe, will come home to no special welcome, no TV or book deals and no talk of the presidency. Clark's reward for victory is early retirement. Tomorrow, several months before his tour of duty would normally end, Clark will turn over the European command to an officer more to the liking of the ever-cautious White House and defense secretary.

Clark's problem was that he was a great general but not always a perfect
soldier--at least when it came to saluting and saying, "Yes, sir." In fact, when he got orders he didn't like, he said so and pushed to change them.

Clark disapproved the gradualism of the initial bombing campaign against
Belgrade. He wanted to hit hard and massively. But NATO governments and
diplomats in Washington felt Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic would
yield after only a few bombs and cruise missiles, as he had in Bosnia. They were wrong. Clark, who was part of the delegation that negotiated the Dayton accords with Milosevic, knew Kosovo was integral to Serb identity and to Milosevic's rise to power. He would not give it up easily.

When it became clear the initial NATO bombing wasn't working, Clark
pushed for every airplane he could get, much to the dismay of the U.S. Air Force. Indeed, one of the unsung accomplishments of Kosovo is how quickly Clark built up air power--far faster than was done in Desert Storm. Clark prodded and cajoled the Europeans and the White House into accepting expanded, and riskier, target lists. He ordered 50 Apache attack helicopters to take the battle to the Serb ground troops, only to see the force reduced in size and then left to sit in Albania while the White House and Pentagon fretted about casualties. Clark also was right about readying troops for an invasion. The preparations for a ground war helped persuade Milosevic to surrender.

More presciently, Clark was right about the Russians. When fewer than
200 lightly armed Russian peacekeepers barnstormed from Bosnia to the
Pristina airport in Kosovo to upstage the arrival of NATO peacekeepers,
Clark was rightly outraged. Russians did not win the war, and he did not
want them to win the peace.

Clark asked NATO helicopters and ground troops to seize the airport before the Russians could arrive. But a British general, absurdly saying he feared World War III (in truth the Russians had no cards to play), appealed to London and Washington to delay the order.

The result was a humiliation for NATO, a tonic for the Russian military and an important lesson for the then-obscure head of the Russian national security council, Vladimir Putin. As later Russian press reports showed, Putin knew far more about the Pristina operation than did the Russian defense or foreign ministers. It was no coincidence that a few weeks afterward, Russian bombers buzzed NATO member Iceland for the first time in a decade. A few weeks after that, with Putin as prime minister, Russian troops invaded Chechnya. Putin learned the value of boldness in the face of Western hesitation. Clark learned that he had no backup in Washington.

Recent events in Kosovo show that Clark's bosses in the Pentagon and
White House still don't get it. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. Henry Shelton, rebuked Clark in February for using 350 American soldiers to reinforce French troops who were unable to quell violence between Albanians and Serbs. After the American reinforcements were pelted with
rocks and bottles, Shelton and the White House, panicky about potential
casualties, told Clark not to volunteer U.S. troops again.

But Clark was right to act. He understood the value of using force quickly and early to show who was in control, and to demonstrate to the European allies that the United States is willing to put lives at risk too.

Both Desert Storm and Kosovo were imperfect victories because the despots who caused them were left in power. But the military fought them well. The thousands of Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps pilots and support troops who quietly rejoined their squadrons when the Kosovo war ended deserve more than a historical footnote. And Clark deserves more than a pink slip.

The writer is a managing editor at National Journal.




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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #151
152. excellent, but snip it down
you can only post 4 paragraphs along with a link. :)
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #152
156. It Is Very Late Tonight....
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 03:38 AM by The Magistrate
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