Clinton Against Dean? Why Take Fineman's Bait?

[KittyWampus]

Howard Fineman of Newsweek is a mediawhore and has NO reason to do Democrats any favors.

It seems there's a concerted effort to divide Democrats.

It's kind of sad so many Dean supporters willingly swallow the GOP bait.

And WHY anyone would take Fineman's word for it is beyond me.

How the hell would Fineman know what Clinton said? Are than any direct quotes from Clinton anywheres?

And the thought of Clinton suggesting Terry Mc. stay on as DNC chair is flat out stupid. There's ALREADY declared candidates for the job. Terry already said he's leaving.

If you can't see past GOP tactics and talking points then you need to step away from politics for awhile and get some perspective.

There are Democrats who want other candidates OTHER THAN DEAN to get the DNC chair and those people have a right to advocate for their chosen candidate.

Those who want someone other than Dean aren't DINO's, Centrists or PNAC plants. They are Democrats who think someone else will do a better job.

I've said it before and will repeat... Dean supporters who constantly portray him as a victim are doing him no favors.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

1. screw Fineman

He's just doing Karl's work.

[Eloriel]

158. No, these are leaks from Dems -- if the Clintons weren't doing this

there would be HUGE denials and a bunch of other stuff. I'm not a big Fineman fan, but he does have an inside track to the Clintons -- and has had for quite some time. It seems to me they want this info leaked, just as they wanted the info about their previous "Stop Dean" campaign leaked.

[newsguyatl]

2. you sound worried

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

3. Worried About Democrats Remaining Splintered & Ineffective

I personally don't give a shit WHO gets DNC chair and have agreed Dean might very well do a good job.

Edit_ BUT if I was going to advocate actively for Dean, I wouldn't use GOP talking points or make him out to be the victim of a conspiracy.

:hi:

[xultar]

11. Please allow those who thrive on being splintered & ineffective

do their thing.

What I find funny is that the Right wants us to be splintered and innefective. By using tacticts to trick us to fight amongst ourselves.

It is BRILLIANT what they are doing. Meanwhile, they are pushing through Gonzalez, another 80billion for Iraq, attacking Iran, etc. We on the other-hand are fighting each other.

The evil in their plan is brilliant or the brillance is evil. You gotta give them credit. Instead of fighting them. We are fighting each other.

[KissMeKate]

112. when thye DLCers say "stop fighting amongst ourselves"

do they really mean "stop fighting US"?

because I NEVER hear a DLC supporter talk about compromise on the part of the moderates.

Its all the left's fault if we dont tow the line, and ask "how high" when our corporate sponsors tell us to jumnp.

This leftist isnt jumping anymore.

You want unity DLC supporters?

then compromise YOUR stances!

[xultar]

115. You're cute. n/t

[KissMeKate]

116. you think so?

Thanks!
you should see the picture of me and my cat!

[PassingFair]

135. "THEY are pushing through Gonzales, 80 billion for Iraq, etc...."

The problem is, "THEY" are doing it with "OUR" help!
For crying out loud, most dems are voting with "THEY"!
Time to cry foul, even if you don't like the shrieking.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. but when folks repeat memes by rush and fineman they should be worried...

I heard Fatboy himself say the Clintons want McAullife to stay on...

[napi21]

5. Well said! It's to the MSM advantage to keep the discontent fired up.

Makes for much better copy, and they try to keep the fires burning not only amoung Dems, but between the Dems & Pubs too. Who would ever listen to reports that say everybody agrees on any decision?

I always listen to this crap, and try to decide if it makes sense. If it doesn't, it's probably hype.

[Capn Sunshine]

15. It's also MSM that is threatened

It's not just about diminishing corporate lobbyist money.
The Media piled on Howard Dean the second he mentioned that we should bring back the Fairness Doctrine. It's No coincidence "the scream" was rebroadcast 650 times between Iowa and New Hampshire; or that fully edited tapes of it ended up in every morning show's inboxes the next morning. And we're talking tens of thousands of copies.

The pattern is a little more obvious to some than others.

[KittyWampus]

17. For God's Sake- Dean's Assinine Performance In Iowa Didn't Need

the "Scream" to make him a laughing stock. Manically doing a Rally Speech rather than a Concession Speech is what killed him.

[killbotfactory]

19. Yeah, the infinate loop of the scream had nothing to do with it..

Whatever.

[KittyWampus]

29. Just Think, If Dean Hadn't Acted Like He Was At A Rally- There Wouldn't

have even BEEN a scream.

If he'd done a dignified Concession Speech- people might have stopped to actually listen to him.

But then that's admitting there are other voters in America other than the small core of Dean supporters.

[killbotfactory]

54. The primary wasn't over

Why a concession speech?

Imagine if our media had integrity...

[KittyWampus]

66. Because He Lost Iowa And Candidates Always Conceed Their Loses

by making a speech in front of the cameras.

ALL the other losing primary candidates had Concession Speeches in Iowa... and only Howard Dean made his a Rally.

But then, all the other candidates who lost in all the other states following Iowa did Concession Speeches.... because that's the way it's done.

I personally blame his staff for not having a speech made out for him ahead of time.

[dsc]

99. Please provide a citation of:

A) Clinton's concession speech after losing the 1992 New Hampshire primary

B) Edward's concession speech after losing the 2004 Iowa Caucus.

[Kahuna]

161. It was the red-meat crowd. And Dean is a red-meat crowd pleaser.

For that reason, I fear him. I fear he has very little adult constraint.

[pfony1]

120. Why the "pile-on"?

The media showed the "Dean-scream" uncounted times. Why? To promote their ESTABLISHMENT candidate: John Kerry.

REAL Democrats deserved a better candidate....

[candy331]

134. With that assessment seems the Chimps "Mission Accomplished"

hoopla should have killed him but he lives on and large indeed not even to be beaten by the mighty Mr. electable ABB.
CryingShame

[demwing]

174. What killed Dean was the assinine spin on "the scream"

Take two seconds from a rally speech--I'll admit that it was a rally, but I disagree that it is somehow "bad" to rally your supporters after a disappointing finish--and replay those two seconds ad naseum and you give the impression that Dean screamed 1000 TIMES!

Then, ad snide background noise (such as calling Dean's speech "assinine" and "manic") and repeat THAT ad naseum, and you get one nauseated electorate.

Please don't think you're convincing anyone of anything other than the fact that your Dean bias is hanging out further than a teenage skate-rat's boxer shorts.

[cali]

6. Yet another thinly disguised

Dean bashing post from you. Quel surprise.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. without getting into the briar patch about dean

fatboy did say the Dems want McAullife to stay and this illustrated how pathetic the Dems were because he's a loser.....

[KittyWampus]

10. I Actually Think Dean Might Do A Very Good Job As DNC Chair

but am not involved in supporting ANYONE for the position.

It's just it'd be more productive for his active supporters to focus on what Dean can bring to the table rather than conjuring up conspiracy theories and demons.

[Cheswick2.0]

157. So you are calling Bob Kerrey, Clark and various other Democrats liars?

I'll admit I think Clark is a liar, but not about being the "anti Dean" candidate.

[newsguyatl]

12. disguised?

pretty blatant to me ;-)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John_H]

34. LOL! Now mistrusting Howie the Duck is Dean bashing!

I'm going to my room, put on my Iowa color coded hat, pop in my bootleg of deans 6/21/04 speech to the Wisconsin Cheesemakers Assn. (A close number 3 on my top ten events list, right behind the 3/14/04 New Hampshire Hatmakers Appreciation Day remarks and the 1/2/04 South Carolina SEIU New Years Ball), flip through my DFA button collection, and then have my Howard for America action figure kick the shit out of my little sister's Ken doll, who I will dress up like Bill Clinton.

[xultar]

40. It is not a bashing DEAN thread this is a BASHING Fineman as a whore

thread. IF you can't see that this isn't a Dean Bash thread then I do feel sorry that you are taking it that way. Please try to read it again and read what it says. Not what you want it to say.

[Cheswick2.0]

94. not just Quel Suprise.............

Quel fromage! It stinks like limberger.

[wyldwolf]

122. Yet another thinly disguised

Fineman bashing post. Quel surprise!

To even suggest that Fineman would be any less than honest...

And to dare defend the Clintons!

</sarcasm>

[Larkspur]

8. Clinton called Iowans during the days leading into the Iowa Caucuses to

vote against Dean because of Dean's support for Civil Unions in VT. Clinton made the mistake of talking to a Gay Iowan delegate for Dean, who informed Dean about Clinton's tactic. Dean mentions this in his newly released book. So it's not farfetched for Dean supporters to believed that Bill Clinton doesn't want Dean, whom he can't control, at the help of the DNC.

So whether it's Clinton or Clintnoistas, there is inside Washington an anti-Dean clique with the view that this clique's members are more concerned about keeping their jobs when commonsense says that they should be fired for helping the Dems lose elections.

[KittyWampus]

16. Lumping Everyone Into A Grand Conspiracy Isn't Very Productive

or realistic.

One gay Iowan delegate means squat. Who knows what, if anything, Clinton actually said. Or are you saying this was a recording?

Do you have the full text of this supposed recording?

And if Clinton did advocate against Dean... maybe it's because in HIS OPINION Dean wasn't right for the job.

Just like GORE advocated FOR Dean cause he thought Dean WAS right for the job.

See how politics works? Not everyone is going to support fucking Howard Dean.

[cali]

38. "fucking Dean"?

I take back the comment about your post being thinly veiled. You could care less about Fineman or Newsweek. All you care about is attacking Dean. Ironic isn't it, after your remarks about dems shouldn't let themselves be divided? Do you have a clue about how divisive you are with your constant flamebaiting?

[xultar]

42. OK I support FUCKING CLARK, I voted for FUCKING GORE,

I voted for FUCKING KERRY. I DATED A FUCKING MORROCAN. I THINK I HAVE A FUCKING HEADACHE?

I'm typing on a FUCKING LAPTOP.

IT'S FUCKING COLD.

I LOST MY FUCKING PHONE!

WHERE ARE MY FUCKING KEYS.

Ya get it now?

[tishaLA]

59. I adore you Xultar

:loveya:

[xultar]

70. I'm back...screaming and kicking...for one brief moment I thought hey...

Let's let them have it. Let's let Dean and his supporters have the party.

All the rest of us, move to the middle. Then they'll all be fighting for our votes.

Then I realized how STOOPID that was.

SO I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack.

Thank you!!! :loveya: too!

[Kahuna]

162. So do I.

:loveya: :loveya: She's me with a better attitude. :evilgrin:

[Cheswick2.0]

95. oh well...more people support fucking Dean than fucking Clark or fucking `

Kerry at this point. That is really your main issue isn't it?

[xultar]

96. So, when people say that Dean supporters are rude should I use this as an

example? What I was actually pointing out was that poster who said fucking Dean didn'tmean it as a bash against dean. They were just using the term fucking like we all do when we say fucking like,
fucking laptop,
fucking light bulb,
fucking dish soap,
fucking remote,
fucking chair,
fucking car,
fucking keys,

Why must you always be so abrasive and rude when no one has been so to you?

[demwing]

175. So If I say

"take your fucking opinion somewhere else" you won't get angry?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that, but if I did, I bet it would get this post deleted, because it would be offensive.

Just like referring to Dean as "fucking Dean" is offensive.

now peace :)

[Clark2008]

102. Perception isn't reality

And, in reality, I still see Kerry and Clark stickers. I only saw ONE Dean sticker during the whole primary down here.

Again, this is your opinion based on where you live. Where I live, however, Clark is much more popular. And, it is my state and states like mine where we need to make inroads.

P.S. I don't care if Dean gets DNC chair. I don't care if he doesn't. I care that changes are made.

[progressiveright]

121. i will support fucking anybody

who will take a stand against corporations, rely on small donations instead of corporate donations, and fight for labor unions, capitalism, competition, and stricter anti-trust laws.

[dsc]

100. Yes we all know those gays lie

Incidently, it should be noted that there is not a report anywhere of Clinton denying what was printed in Dean's book despite it having been several months now.

[tishaLA]

123. Why would Pres. Clinton even be expected to deny it?

He has fended off attacks from the RW since 1991. He doesn't respond to most of that stuff any more. He is a former President and he has been working on important things like his Presidential Library and Tsunami Relief.

I'm sure when something significant appears--something that isn't hearsay--he'll speak out forcefully and skillfully.

[Tom Rinaldo]

139. If one assumes this incident in Iowa happened exactly as stated

It certainly wasn't about to do Clark any good. In absolutely no poll was Clark a player in Iowa after he decided not to compete there. A gain of two to five percentage points support there, because of Clinton calls, would have made absolutely no positive difference in his campaign. Perhaps in New Hampshire it could have, but not in Iowa. In fact if one assumes the incident happened as related those calls can be shown to not have helped Clark in any way whatsoever because Clark was a complete non player in Iowa regardless. And Clinton if nothing else knows politics well enough to have known that making those phone calls would never make a positive difference for Clark in Iowa.

So where does that leave us? Either some aspect of the account is off, OR those calls weren't really made to do Clark any favors. Again, at best calls like that could have bumped Clark up a few percentage points in Iowa where he was not competing(though there is no indication of that after the fact) which was meaningless to Clark since there was absolutely no chance of Clark finishing in the top four anyway. However siphoning off one two or three points from Dean by convincing a few people to back Clark instead might have hurt Dean. Remember, it's not like someone legally needed Clark's signed permission before they could ask Dean's supporters in Iowa to back Clark instead. Maybe it happened, but logic suggests that Clark would not have had anything to do with it. Most observers agree that Kerry doing well in Iowa was much more of a threat to Clark than Dean doing well there. Dean doing poorly in Iowa hurt Clark because it left the field open for Kerry and even Edwards to emerge.

Here is a proposal I made on another thread regarding Dean and Clark and the 2004 race and how Clark effected Dean and what happened why. Of course there is nothing "official" about it, but think about it anyway, OK?...

I will not say to "Get over it", nor will I say something inflammatory like "that is outrageous". I will instead suggest "let's move beyond it", and propose how. I for one will not argue that Clark did not receive real support from Clinton and or others who were looking for someone to "Stop Dean" if you will not argue that Clark was running because HE wanted to "Stop Dean", rather than Stop Bush. And if you don't argue against the Draft Clark movement playing a significant role in convincing Clark he should run I won't argue against offers of support from Anti-Dean Party leaders or officials, Clinton or anyone else, playing a significant role in convincing Clark he would be able to mount a serious campaign.

I am not suggesting that we would actually ever come to any exact agreement on any of this, but I am suggesting that a "truce" about what happened fashioned along those terms might stick. And why do I propose this "truce" in how we understand the past to you or anyone else who is interested? Because it is no longer 2004. Political realities have evolved since then. Establishment support for Clark fell away from him, grass roots support for Clark increased. Once the campaign began in earnest Clark's grass roots supporters, much like Dean's I gather, felt very comfortable and fully empowered working inside of Clark's campaign. The General himself has always shown us, in innumerable ways, how much he appreciates what we are all trying to accomplish for America. I believe Dean supporters have the very same feelings about working with Howard Dean.

The positions Clark has taken on issues are not at all dissimilar from Dean's in most regards. The priorities of Clark's grass roots movement are not at all dissimilar from Dean's grass roots movement in most regards. There are real fights ahead of us that are more important than settling scores left behind us. Many Clark supporters are actively supporting Dean for DNC Chair right now, and Clark refused to seek that position if one is to believe he was indirectly asked to seek it by Clinton. I live in New York and I called my Senator, a Clinton as you know, to ask that she support Dean for DNC Chair. Hasn't the irony of so many grass roots Clark supporters joining with Dean supporters to resist the will of the Clinton wing of the Party, if that is how you view it, struck anyone yet? I do honestly think it is time for us to "move beyond" this emotionally charged but essentially dated bone of contention about the 2004 primaries.

[dsc]

141. I do not blame Clark for this at all

Clark had not one whit to do with it and shouldn't be blamed. It should be noted though that the call occured before Clark decided to forgo Iowa. But again, I don't hold Clark responsible for this. The only real problem I ever had with Clark was what I precieved to be a poorly run campaign. Clark supporters on the otherhand were a different kettle of fish. Some were terrific people others not exactly. But Clark doesn't deserve the blame for that either.

[Tom Rinaldo]

143. Thank you for the clarification and comments n/t

[dsc]

144. Thanks for the opportunity to do so

It is easy to forget this episode gets portrayed in the light of the Clark Dean faultline. It is Clinton who needs to be taken to the woodshed over this not Clark.

[Tom Rinaldo]

140. Accidental double posting. Self Deleted. n/t

[xultar]

18. Good thing the Right Wing has us busy fighting each other. Man they

can get away with murder now!

Good thing that Iowa voters aren't smart enough to vote based on the issues. It wasn't widely known that all the candiates were for civil unions or instead of Dems the Demcorats in the primaries in IA would have voted for REthugs instad. :crazy: WOW! WOW!! WOW!!!.

[papau]

20. The political liability of Dean's support for Civil Unions is/was real -

so who was "Clinton" pushing as an alternative?

The only Clinton request that I actually know to have been made as to DNC chair was that the person should be neutral as to primaries.

There is or was a possibility - if a Missouri DNC - that the the DNC person would have a Home State person running for National Office.

[xultar]

24. Most candiates were on the record for Civil Unions by IA primaries...

the so, argument of the the reply poster is sunk. IF they weren't for civil unions then marriage...DK, AS, CMB (for gay marriage).

The rest were all Civil unions WC, HD, JK, DG, Sen Graham, etc. (I'm not sure about JL)

[papau]

39. then the claim of a Clinton call seems a lie as the conversation is

unlikely if there was no alternative positioned candidate.

I recall it as you do - the fight was between civil unions with all the rights of marriage - and those that demanded that the word marriage be used.

Indeed today the GOP are pressing for laws that say civil unions WILL NOT HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS MARRIAGE.

The GOP is moving from gay as hot button to really trying to hurt the gay population.

Why some on DU fall for this I do not understand.

[Larkspur]

71. Clinton was pushing Clark during the IA Caucus as his choice

And since Howard Dean mentioned this incident in his newly released book, it must be true. Dean would not publish a lie or unsubstantiated rumor.

The only reason that civil unions and gay marriage became the top "moral" issues was that Kerry allowed the Iraq War to not be the top "moral" issue of the day. The Iraq War and the reasons behind it were Bush's Achilles heel, but because Kerry, Clinton, and the DLC subscribe to PPI, which is the Dem version of PNAC, they supported the war and the colonization of Iraq to support our addiction to oil and to force Iraq to be a friend of Israel, the new ruthless apartheid regime.

[papau]

88. OK - then where is the logic if Clark backed civil unions? - I grant

Dean spoke truth that a person said they were called by a "Clinton" (male/female, bigdog or staff or nobody) who dumped on gays.

I suggest the person that said they were called by "Clinton" and related the story may have a few details incorrect.

Does Dean give that person's name?

[FrenchieCat]

103. Clark didn't

Contest Iowa....Who's Clinton gonna be calling to ask that they support someone that's not even a choice in Iowa?:shrug:

[Clark2008]

104. Well, that would be a pretty neat trick, considering

CLARK DID NOT CONTEST IN IOWA!!!

Where Dean got this assertation, I don't know. But, I can guarantee you one thing, the sodbusters for Clark out in Iowa would have LOVED to have had Clinton stumping along with them.

Geesch.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. That Is A Serious Charge....

If it's true Clinton should be brought to task....


If it's not true it amounts to blood libel and the people peddling it should be excised from the party...

[xultar]

36. But it is ok if it proves that Clinton against Dean thus splintering the

party and doing what the right ultimately wants...to break up the Dems.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Destroying The Democratic Party Is Wrong

but so is accusing Bill Clinton of being against civil unions if that's not the case....


I think you missed my point...

[xultar]

47. Nope I was agreeing with you and taking your point further...the

ultimate goal in all of this fodder is to splinter the party.

Which is what it seems that alot of people want here @ DU.

I find myself rooting for Dean now not because I think he's good for the job (which was my first reason for supporting him). I find myself now supporting Dean because hopefully it will stop all of the circular firing around here. Once Dean is apart of the DNC they have to continue their support of him even when he does things that they see or saw as DNC or Rethug lite.

[KittyWampus]

52. Xultar, I Think The Sniping Will Then Just Focus On DNC'ers Who Get

in "Dean's Way".

Nothing, I repeat nothing is ever Dean's fault to some people.

That said, Dean might very well do a bang up job as Chair and begin moving the Democrats out of the hole they've allowed themselves to be pushed into.

I kinda think a lot of Dean supporters for DNC chair aren't really like those posting here on DU.

Maybe some on DU that are especially divisive aren't really Dean supporters (if you get my drift).

I mean, WHY TAKE A MEDIAWHORE'S WORD FOR SOMETHING CONCERNING DEMOCRATS?

[xultar]

56. I catch it, it is funny because when you get right down to it we all agree

on basically the same thing. The candidates weren't all that different. Dean, Clark, Gephardt, Graham, Kerry, were all basically the same.

DK, CMB, AS, basically had the same stances.

Lieberman...well...let's not go there.

It seems that there is a conserted effort to splinter us by a few. What is even more funny it is becomming quite obvious that there is something subversive is underfoot.

The fact that I fell for it and left DU is shameful on my part.

[Larkspur]

74. Read Dean's newly release book...

He mentions Clinton's call to a gay Dean supporter in Iowa and asking that delegate to vote for Clark because of Dean's support for Civil Unions in VT.

[xultar]

81. Clark supports Civil unions. So that would have been PRETTY DUMB!

Come on....

[dsc]

101. actually the account mentions

SIGNING the civil unions bill. Which is a big difference.

[janx]

167. xultar, I agree with you about this media crap--we never know

what to believe.

But according to Dean, Clinton addressed Dean's signing of the civil unions bill in Vermont.

At the time, it was a very big deal. Clinton was looking at this politically. It's one thing to say you are for civil unions; it's another to have the reputation of having signed them into state law so that all gays and lesbians have (almost) the same rights as hets. Clinton's making that phone call was terribly wrong, and I dare say cowardly. But he no doubt thought it was politically expedient.

But as they say--that's politics.

[wyldwolf]

125. Dean quotes a third party for that charge - complete hearsay

[Larkspur]

165. And that third party was the recipient of a Bill Clinton phone call

and he was gay, which ticked him off about Clinton's message.

[Tinoire]

89. Clinotn also called Carter right before Carter was going to endorse Dean

This is not the original source I had but it pretty much sums up what most of us saw and documented during the Primaries:

Looking back on the assault on Mr. Dean before the Iowa caucuses, one is reminded of the old joke that politics really is a blood sport, and by caucus day the blood was everywhere and so were the Clintons' fingerprints. I cannot recall such a concerted assault on a front-runner in any other primary season. Dick Morris was, perhaps, the first to claim that Mr. McAuliffe's agents spread negative research against Mr. Dean. Now we have more evidence. Sources in the Kerry camp and the Edwards camp told my colleague "The Prowler" at Spectator.org that much of the opposition research that smeared Mr. Dean in Iowa came from the Clark campaign. "It wasn't just Clark, though," a Kerry staffer reported, "We know of at least two different stories that came from people currently on staff with the DNC, who fed the material to reporters." Says an Edwards staffer, "These are folks who worked for Clinton back in '92 and '96 and in the administration."

Of course, the damaging Dean letter to President Clinton in the mid-1990s calling for unilateral action in Kosovo, which USA Today published just before the Iowa caucuses, could only have come from the Clintons. There is another report that Jimmy Carter's anticipated endorsement of Mr. Dean faded into a photo-op after Mr. Clinton called Mr. Carter. Obviously the Clintons have been very busy this campaign season. This explains to some degree Mr. Gore's endorsement of Mr. Dean and possibly Bill Bradley's too.

www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004632


PARTY DIVISIONS. Still, much more is behind the Stop-Dean Democrats than heat-of-battle hard feelings. The unofficial board of directors of Democrats Inc. -- the likes of Bill and Hillary Clinton, Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe, Democratic Leadership Council chief Al From, and katzenjammer consultant James Carville -- is probably almost as eager to see Dean defeated as the Bushies. For if, over the next 11 grueling months, Dean manages to win the nomination and convince America that he should be President, the Clinton mafia will lose control of the party and possibly the election of 2008.

The war within the party, a Democratic national operative mused recently, runs even deeper than that. The bad feelings toward Dean, he suggested, stem from a 23-year rift that has never healed. In the 1980 campaign, Senator Teddy Kennedy challenged a badly damaged President Jimmy Carter for the Democratic nomination. Dean was a Carter guy. Kerry and Bill Clinton, who as President made no bones about his contempt for Carter, were Kennedy men. Neither side has gotten over the bruising fight that ended in Carter's nomination, the landslide election of Ronald Reagan, and 12 long years of Republican Presidencies.

Now the Stop-Dean forces of the Clinton/Kennedy wing of the Democratic Party have two horses in the race -- Kerry and Wesley Clark. To bolster Kerry's faltering campaign and bring order to its internecine bickering, Kennedy has dispatched his chief of staff, Mary Beth Cahill, to take charge. Clark, the general from Arkansas, is surrounded by shop-worn Clintonistas.

http://www.businessweekasia.com/bwdaily/dnflash/dec2003/nf2003121_1127_db009.htm

[Ladyhawk]

124. Thanks for the information and links.

Speaking only for myself, I am ready to boot the DLC-types from power. Even though we might see some concessions to the right if Dean takes the chair, I don't think he could do much worse than Terry McAuliffe...do you? :)

Sure the Democratic Party is splintered...what do we expect after being handed our asses by the likes of the Bush administration? We're all re-evaluating our stances, our tactics, our candidates. Perhaps there was fraud. Even so, Kerry was an ABB candidate...way too moderate to swing us back to a position of sanity.

(Apology for bad writing...something's wrong with the above paragraph and I'm too tired to fix it...migraine headache coming on...off to bed I go)

[wyldwolf]

131. opinion pieces - one from a rightwing source

Dick Morris?

"Prowler" from the Spectator? Why not quote these other jewels from that site?

Abortion Is Un-American
Special Report

Subsidized Stupidity
Campus Scenes
The more aid Congress pours into colleges the less affordable they become.


Wild, Wild World of Animal Rights
Another Perspective
Abortion is okay, but we cannot tolerate prize fish and blue cows.

Complete BS stuff in your post.

Clinton and Kennedy are from the same "wing" of the party?

More rumor and hearsay.

[killbotfactory]

9. Follow the money

The powerbrokers in washington don't want to lose influence over politiicans via their political contributions, and that's what Dean style campaigning (primarily small donors) represents.

They want to discredit Dean because of this. They will never come out and say this, because Americans don't like corruption in their face, they prefer plausable deniability.

[xultar]

21. Dean himself said the DLC doesn't have much power. You don't agree with

him?

[killbotfactory]

23. Oh, for fucks sake...

Where did I mention DLC?

[killbotfactory]

32. This is what I'm talking about

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/donordems.asp

% from Donors of $2,000+
Kerry, John - 36%
Dean, Howard - 11%

% from Donors of $200 or less
Kerry, John - 31%
Dean, Howard - 61% <-- there lies the threat

The people who have their ears turned to special interest who have dominated the political fundraising landscape are the ones buying into the anti-Dean hype.

[xultar]

35. You are preaching to the choir here, I wasn't a JK fan that is why I don't

have a sticker on my car. I do have a paperclip sticker though

[xultar]

30. Sorry, my bad I was mistaken most people seem to put $$$ and DLC

together.

I thought that was the prevailing though and that most people felt that the DLC were the $$$ corpratist whore political powerbroker people...

If I offended or did anything to misrepresent your point.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that killbotfactory.

[killbotfactory]

43. I wasn't offended, just frustrated...

The DLC have a lot of connections to corporations and the like, but I think it's more than that. Dean represents an erosion of power to $2000 dollar donors, and special interests. I think some of those people are recognizing this and making their opinions known to those they can influence.

[xultar]

57. But you understand my confusion correct? There are so many here

who say that DLC = corporatist whore $$$ blah blah blah. It is hard to figure out what we're really supposed to be angry at.

So is it the $$$$ in general is it the DLC only? Is it people who aren't DLC but are $$$$ corporate whores or DCL corporate whores, or DNC corporate whores, or just corporate whores regardless of DLC/DNC? :crazy:


Someone even told me once that it was just the leadership of the DLC that they didn't like. I understand that completely. Because we all know painting everyone in general terms for one affiliation regardless of personal attributes and campaign finaning techniques is wrong. There could be a DLC person who isnt' a coroporate whore some of them aren't that bad.

Wouldn't you agree?

[TwentyFive]

13. Dean is not the victim. The victim is liberalism.

If you want evidence, just look at the last election.

The country is moving rightward because people hear compelling arguments supporting conservative programs....but seldom hear an equally compelling case supporting liberal thought. Moderates are incapable of debating conservatives, because they are so nuanced, that people miss the point - that is why Kerry lost the last election.

[Cocoa]

14. Newsmax LOVES Fineman's Hillary Clinton insights

especially when they involve her vendetta against Howard Dean!



http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/11/16/212359.shtml

As Fineman reports, Hillary's friend sees Mrs. Clinton making a dramatic "entrance as healer and unifier at the end of the primary season in May or June in the unlikely — but not impossible — event that none of the existing contenders has amassed a majority of the convention delegates.

"'You'd have to have Howard Dean not wrapping it up, and being an angry, wounded front-runner,'" the adviser told Fineman. "'You’d have to have two of the other challengers tearing each other apart in primary after primary. Then Hillary could come in, well in advance of the convention, and say, 'Look, somebody has to save the party.'"

And, he writes, it's "doable" because Democrat party rules bind delegates to primary winners in their states solely to the first ballot. After that they are free to vote for whomever they want to.

As Fineman explains it, "Under party rules, delegates are bound to vote at the convention for the candidate under whose banner they were elected in the primaries — but only on the first ballot. Party and elected officials — the so-called superdelegates — are free to shift allegiance, and could form an instant core of Clinton support."

more...

[blm]

22. Only SOME Dean supporters fall for it. Many saw they were being targeted

by operatives long ago.

Fineman exaggerates everything bad he hears about the Dems. The truth is probably that the Clintons don't favor Dean, but the story got blown into a fullscale war against Dean.

I don't believe it's that bad, because Clinton knows as well as anyone that Dean is every bit as centrist as he was while governor, and will NOT pull the party way to the left as the media is portraying.

I think Dean will use his experience as a centrist and his newfound passion for progressive activism to unite the various factions in the party. He just needs to be given the opportunity and the room from both sides to do so.

Media stereotyping be damned.

[KittyWampus]

27. Hmm, Yes Dean Is Similar To Clinton In Many Ways. Interesting.

Others have probably said this before but I never stopped to think about it.

[xultar]

33. That means that our party is lest splintered at the top than it is

@ the bottom.

[xultar]

28. Thank you, I have to remember that there are alot of Dean supporters that

I am agree with on most issues.

[Justitia]

26. sorry, it's more than Dean

I didn't like it one bit when Clinton advised Kerry to "dump the gays" - kudos to Kerry for saying "I will never do that".

We have been hearing from too many sources (not just Fineman and not just recently) about the Clintons running an end game against Dean. Trust me, I did NOT want to believe this, but there is so much talk to the contrary from too many varied sources to ignore it.

Combine that with Clinton's suggestion to Kerry re: gays, and I have to start entertaining the possibility that they (the Clintons) have it in them.

And I am profoundly disappointed to say the least.
I have always been a huge supporter of them both, but I really do care about the current dems in our party and I believe that the Clintons are in a position to do harm.

So, I will politely ask them to step aside - NOW.

[NYCGirl]

37. Is it just Fineman? I've seen lots of people here calling Newsweek

GOP shills.

It's just sort of strange that there are so many people willing to believe Newsweek when Isikoff writes something we'd like to believe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1521442

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=100183

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2998446

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1523199

[xultar]

44. You are right. Do you think that this is a BASH Dean thread?

[NYCGirl]

46. No, I think it's a thread that wants to tell people what to believe. NT

[xultar]

48. So, you think that Fineman is reporting the honest truth? n/t

[NYCGirl]

49. Maybe, maybe not. But that's for me to judge, isn't it?

I was pointing out the fact that Democrats can be hypocrites, too.

[xultar]

51. Agreed. Do you think that what Fineman is reporting is the truth? n/t

[NYCGirl]

53. I'm considering what was written and weighing it against other reports. NT

[xultar]

68. I'd love it if you'd PM me some of the other reports you come across

I'd like to get some additional background on that as well.

[NYCGirl]

87. If I find more, you'll be the first to know. NT

[fooj]

41. Finneman is as spineless as a jellyfish!

[LiviaOlivia]

50. "Howard Fineman: Still Searching for the Perfect Shade of Lipstick"

James Wolcott on Fineman 1-12-05

http://jameswolcott.com/archives/2005/01/howard_fineman_1.php

[Cha]

117. Excellent analysis by James Wolcott

on fineman..

"As for Watergate, Fineman makes it sound like the entire press suited up in armor and mounted their steeds into battle at the first trumpet. Hardly. The Watergate breakin was dismissed as a second-rate burglary of trifling interest with Woodward and Bernstein's digging being dismissed at the outset as a snipe hunt by the loftier placed in the media. Watergate didn't become a "crusade" until the story became so juicy, the evidence of corruption so pervasive, and the testimonies so riveting, that the entire nation was transfixed."

"When you see how gullibly the media swallowed the lies and claims from the Bush administration and their neocon mouthpieces about WMDs in Iraq, it's pretty damned hard to accept the notion that the Media Party suffers from an excess of prosecutorial zeal, and that we're all better off with the ghost of Edward R. Murrow finally being sucked into the ventilator so that reporters can resume a more modest role shining Karl Rove's shoes."

The last paragraph is pure gold!

[Walt Starr]

55. I believe Fineman on this because it fits the pattern of behavior

:shrug:

Sorry, but the Clinton's have attempted to coppt control of the party for years. There's only one way I'll believe Fineman is blowing steam out of his ass on this one, if Hillary herself comes out in support of Dean for DNC chair.

That, however, might be the kiss of death for him.

[xultar]

60. Can someone not support Dean and not be seen as a corporate whore

in your eyes.

What I'm getting at is it seems like you're taking a Bush like stance, If you arent' with us you're against us.

What if she just likes someone better? What is wrong with that? Could it be that Fineman has part of it wrong and the real story is that she is supporting someone else? That isn't a glamorus story is it. We need to add some intrigue and hate to get people to get all excited and in an uproar. It's not like that's never happened in the media is it. IF IT BLEEDS IT LEADS BABY!!!!!!!!!

But nooooooooooooooo she has to yell @ the top of her lungs that she supports him just to be seen as worthy in your eyes.

Something seems wrong about this.

So ya'll believe the media when there are stories that report Dean as a victim and hate the media when it is attacking Dean. I can't say I would do any different against Clark. But at least I can recognize it when I'm being 2-faced.

I used to support Dean because I thought he was right for the job. Now I support him because it will put all of you who are so agressive about Dean on the record.

When Dean gets chair and he will, I wanna see how long you support him when he has to do some wheeling and dealing with corporate America to get funding for candidates.

[Walt Starr]

61. Yes, they can, so long as they don't have a history of being a corporate

whore.

Hillary has such a history.

[xultar]

62. Agreed, n/t

[KittyWampus]

64. Howard Dean Also Has A Similar History Of Corporate Whoredom,

Centrism and "Appeasment" of the Right.

He seeded his freaking primary campaign with money from the Koch Brothers.

Howard Dean is very similar to Bill Clinton, in fact.

[xultar]

67. ....

Now we can't go saying all that. WE have to ease the truth into the situation...infuse it.

What's wrong with having the dream last a little longer. I hope Dean gets the chair because when he does what he's always done they'll have to continue support him.

[lojasmo]

77. So many unfounded allegations, so much vitreol...amazing.

Did howard dean shit in your cheerios?

[KittyWampus]

90. Unfounded Allegations? LOL! Just Because I Am Familiar With Dean's

actual record and you apparently are only familiar with his myth?

[Guaranteed]

91. Hmmm...have you asked Terry McAuliffe if he might want to

stay in as Chairman? :P

[lojasmo]

108. No, unfounded because you provide smear without link or evidence. N/T

[KittyWampus]

146. Smear? LOL.... Yeah, Howard Dean Never Said Giving Money Gets You

access, I can't be bothered dredging up the quotes and info.

If you paid any attention to Dean's actual record as Governor you would know it too.

[lojasmo]

149. "corporate whore" Too bad you can't be bothered to prove your shit N/T

[lojasmo]

150. Since the topic of the OP is proving what you claim are bullshit smears...

I find it ironic that you refuse to back up your own.

[KittyWampus]

166. Google Gov. Dean-Vermont Yankee- FEC Donations-Energy Deregulation

also Campaign Finance Regulations

He supported a ruinous Energy Deregulation using a scheme (like Enron's) that had already proven disasterous across the border in neighboring Canada.


Howard Dean sold Vermont Yankee (an Energy Plant) to Entergy (a company owned by Koch Bros.) for less than its real value.

The same Energy Corp. (Entergy) seeded Dean's early Primary Candidacy (it's in the FEC records).

In a debate over Campaign Finance Regulation (he opposed the existing laws regulating Campaign Donations) Dean said-

“People who think they’re going to buy a contract or buy some influence are mistaken,” Dean famously said during the debate over a campaign finance reform bill in 1996. “But they do get access — there’s no question about that. ...They get me to return their phone calls.”

This has all been known by those who actually read up on Howard Dean's tenure as Vermont Governor. He was A DLC member who worked WITH the GOP and AGAINST Democrats. He was, in short, a lot like CLINTON.

[Larkspur]

76. Guess it never occurred to you that Dean plans on weening Dems off

corporate or "special interest" dononations by raising most of the Dem budget with small donors, like he did with his primary campaign. He won't completely get rid of corporate money, but he doesn't want Dems enslaved to corporate money like the Repukes are.

[xultar]

80. So, the whole Buy Blue movement is all for not. SCREW BUY BLUE

We shouldn't support blue corporations because all coroporations are corporate whores.

Well I work for a company who donated heavilly to Democrats. I'm proud of that.

[Guaranteed]

92. Well, at least don't give your money to Repuke corps. nt

[Sparkle]

58. I support Dean and all Democrats.

But I think the hard core Dean fans are pushy around here. I keep hearing "either back Dean for DNC chair or else",

I do want him for the DNC chair, mind you. I just don't care for pushy posters.

[NYCGirl]

65. Someone threatened you,

"either back Dean for DNC chair or else"? You have every right to tell them off if they threaten you.

[xultar]

73. The threats were sent in PMs last week. Can you believe that is what

this whole thing has come too? People TREATINING people in PMs?

Can you believe that?

[bklyncowgirl]

78. Whoever did that is not helping the cause.

Maybe everybody just needs to take a deep breath.

[NYCGirl]

82. I hope Sparkle reported them. NT

[Sparkle]

83. No, no one threatened me.

I should have worded my post differently. But the attitude with the Dean supporters is for everyone to back Dean or else. That's what I'm getting.

[NYCGirl]

85. Just ignore those types, no matter who they're backing.

It's better for your mental health.
:hi:

[xultar]

98. There were threats PMed about a week ago. So you may not have been

threatened but others were.

[Cha]

118. I've always liked Dean and I say

support who you want. If Dean gets the Chair or not..it won't be the end of his working for our Country.

[RealDems]

63. Fineman may be a spineless jellyfish....

but he's right about the Clinton - Dean divide. Even Dean acknowledges this in his book.

[jswordy]

69. Yeah, it's all Fineman's fault. He has it in for us!

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[cestpaspossible]

72. Bait is exactly what it is.

It amazes me that so many are so gullible as to fall for the same media tricks over and over and over and over and over...

[lojasmo]

75. Just because fineman reported it doesn't mean it's untrue.

Bill Clinton opposed Dean in the primaries. I have do problem doubting Hillarys cowardly opposition to Dean as DNC chair.

[jswordy]

79. Right on.

:hi:

Dude, it IS INDEED true, has been reported in the WP and other national newspapers for quite some time. Folks who always look at the tube (here or TV) for their news are the ones who are uninformed. And you can tell it by the way they attack on a personal level rather than a factual one, and the way they defend their misconceptions as a result of shallow reading.

Sorry, ya can't get all the news by reading the LBN here, or watching TV or cruising other blogs. Fact of life!

Of course, the media are all at fault! Hell yeah! I mean, they just told some people stuff they didn't want to hear! "Attack the messenger" is the oldest trick in the book when the bag of other arguments is empty and has holes in it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. I Read The NYT, Newsweek, TIMEThe New Republic, Vanity Fair,

Gentleman's Quarterly and Sports Illustrated....


Only the gossip columnist (sic) Howard Fineman is writing that the Clintons are actively trying to undermine Howard Dean...

[FrenchieCat]

107. I've got an Intern story to sell you then....

I have watched time and time again how falsehood spread around the corporate news of America. It's nothing but gossip and it is meant to hurt all of those involved.

Newsweek, Fineman, Alter, Hardball, etc., etc., etc.....perpetuate lie after lie, and we selectively determine what we will and will not believe.

Believe you me....they take a teeny bit of the truth and stretch it and mishape it and pass it around. It's been done before, and it will be done again.

They are laughing at us while we speculate about nothing!

[xultar]

84. I don't get it. IT seems that you want to REQUIRE EVERYONE TO

SUPPORT DEAN. MUST EVERYONE SUPPORT DEAN???

[lojasmo]

109. No. N/T

[lojasmo]

110. If hillary opposes Dean, she should just fucking SAY SO.

As it is, she's working behind the scenes in order to have it both ways. She opposes Dean, and wants him to lose, but she suspects he'll win, and doesn't want to alienate him because she plans to run for president in 2008. It's dishonest, and I hate that.

[KissMeKate]

113. do you want to require everyone to support the DLC?

Because, when calling for UNITY, and not offering to compromise yourself, it seems that is exactly what you are calling for.

[xultar]

114. I don't support the DLC. I didn't even know who the fuck they were...

nor did I even give a fuck.

I just wanted us to focus on a few issues and let the DLC issue be dealt with @ the top.

It seems to me ya'll would rather attack one another rather than fight the right. Truly that is some SAD SHIT. Seems to me that the people who have that attitude are trying to assist the right with trying to splinter the Democratic party.

Howard Dean has been saying the same thing I've been saying...

THE DLC HAS NO POWER. WE SHOULD CONCENTRATE ON THE ISSUES AND THEY WILL FALL ON THEIR OWN.

You support Dean, why not take his advice?

I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE DLC. THEY AREN'T MY CONCERN CUZ THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT.

I CAN PROTEST FOR ELECTION REFORM,
I CAN LOBBY CONGRESS TO VOTE AGAINST GONZALES...

That is what we should be doing not attacking one another.

[Cha]

119. That's not what lojasmo was

was saying at all.

[Pepperbelly]

127. if Fineman says it, the burden on his lying, dirty-trick ass.

Seems as though you are willing to pet a rattlesnake if you think it might bite Bill Clinton.

No thanx.

[lojasmo]

151. It's been reported elsewhere that the clintons have screwed Dean. EOM

[Pepperbelly]

160. but where did it come from initially?

That is the question.

[lojasmo]

163. It's a good question, but until proven otherwise.....

Since it's been reported by so many sources, it should be accepted as fact, instead of treated as some sort of conspiracy theory.

[Cheswick2.0]

93. You mean as opposed to the great victimhood you all claim for Wesley?

"The media didn't cover him because they were affraid of him." LOL

Forget that he barely registered with voters and he wasn't covered because he was boring. "It was all a big media plot to keep him from the nomination".

Even the media admits they went after Dean. Your crew on the other hand, have no proof that Clark was shut out except wishing it so.

No matter how often or how viciously you attack Dean, Clark will never be the nominee for President (at least not for the democratic party) and your "movement" will disapear when Clark fails to show any interest beyond his own financial ambition.

You need to give it up, because you are not doing the democratic party any favors.

[xultar]

106. Here's the level of Civility that we should all aspire to. Thanks!!!

Her post wasn't even an attack on Dean. Basically it was saying that Fineman was full o shit.

Please read it again. Perhaps another read will help you to see the posters original intent.

[Pepperbelly]

128. you are awful damned quick to impugn integrity based on nothing more ...

than your own fucking opinion.

Very quick.

And that is a very two-edged sword.

[robbedvoter]

129. Subject of thread was fineman credibility in article on dean, Clintons

I know you live to attack Clark, his supporters, but you will have to open your own threads for your pet issues as hijacking of threads is against the rules.

[dogman]

136. Someone in the Gardening Group is having a problem with a pitchfork.

Shouldn't you go post and tell them it's Clark's fault, Clinton made him do it.

[Clark2008]

142. Dude, Clark came in first, second and third in more states

than Dean.

I have no clue to which reality you belong, but he not only beat Dean, he beat Edwards in the states in which he actively competed.

That said, read my post further down.

I'm just tired of the poor facts some of you spout on about.

[lojasmo]

152. Nope. Clark only one ONE state....Dean too. EOM

[Cheswick2.0]

156. Dude, Dean ended up with more delegates

ROFl. You guys are funny.

[dsc]

97. I believe Feinman in this case because

A) the article had quotes from Dean that would have taken research to discover (the "I could be America's first gay President" and "Democrats should leave Wyoming due to what happened to Sheppard". I can't see where the quotes could have come from but for an opponent of Dean's.

B) Clinton used the very same tactics in the primaries (down to demonizing gays).

[xultar]

105. We all know that you need some facts in Bullshit to make people buy

it @ the first glance.

[dsc]

137. Where did he get them?

It isn't just that the quotes are accurate (and Dean actually disputes one of the two) it is that Fineman somehow found them. I sincerely doubt that he spent hours researching these quotes simply to write a made up story and that is the only other option here. Either someone against Dean put the quotes in play or Fineman spent hours finding them to help a made up story.

[Pepperbelly]

130. thin gruel upon which to base a nasty conclusion. nt

[KissMeKate]

111. Fineman's "bait"? hey if it looks, acts, and waddles like a duck...

The gop will probably play up the left/moderate divide in the democratic party-

that doesnt mean it doesnt exist, or that progressives should just capitulate to the DLC.

People, INCLUDING DEAN SUPPORTERS, have a right to advocate for who they want as DNC chair.

if Hillary wants a mealy mouthed DLC yes man to "lead" us, then I say HECK YES, draw attention to it, even if its Howard Fineman doing it.

[patricia92243]

126. Clinton kisses up to Bush so much these days that I don't think he has the

good of the party in mind anymore. I know he was sick during the election, but he did a pitiful job of supporting the Democratic Party.

Dean is our man!

[wyldwolf]

132. because hardcore Dean supporters need an enemy to focus on?

[dsc]

145. Give me a reasonable explanation of where the Dean quotes came from

and I will shut up. But I have asked repeatedly and not gotten an decent answer.

[wyldwolf]

147. what Dean quotes?

[dsc]

148. The

"If Clinton was the first black President, than I can be the first gay one." And the one from the off the record seminar in regards to Wyoming and Democrats after the Sheppard case. Neither are famous or even quoted elsewhere.

[wyldwolf]

153. first I've seem them

But what do they have to do with the thread topic?

[dsc]

159. They are in the Fineman article

the one that we are supposedly delusional cranks to believe. But evidenly you chose to name call us for believing an article that you didn't even bother to read.

[wyldwolf]

164. Yeah, I read the article

Read it a couple of days ago. Forgive me if I couldn't remember it verbatim. But back to the point:

I fail to see what the quotes have to do with Clinton.

Regardless, I googled the first one ("gay one") and got no returns.

I've never seen them quoted on DU either.

However, this was written about John Kerry:

http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200410/1097212679.html

So in answer to you question, a reasonable explanation of where the Dean quotes came from could be Howard Fineman's butt.

They weren't contributed to Clinton.

And if you're insulted by being called a Hardcore Dean supporter" so be it.

But Fineman has been denigrated on DU often but we're now supposed to believe his unsourced allegations?

[LSK]

172. and that would be THE RIGHT

NEXT!!

[Clark2008]

133. May, I say, to try to bring unity...

Fineman is a shill.
He's a corporate whore. His words are his own (and his media master).

Clark and Dean are both fine people. They both had large grassroots organizations that were undone by A.) a media so intent on pleasing their corporate bosses that they doused Dean in a fiery demise because of their soul concentration on him and ignored Clark to the point of torture for those wanting to hear a voice in the wilderness; and B.) a Democratic leadership so bent on rewarding their longtime presense that they don't even realize it's overspent its usefulness.

I really hope it's Dean and DNC chair and Clark in '08. That way, we can tell the media, the Republicans and all those people who only THINK they're in the majority to SHOVE IT (one of the best lines of the general campaign and it didn't even come from a candidate)!

[candy331]

138. Fineman is a Findman collecting that whore money and laughing

all the way to the bank with it, but occasionally even a whore turns a good trick that turns a whore seeker on.

[FrenchieCat]

155. But the real questions is..... are we the johns?

In this case, unfortunately, it is those who are buying this lock, stock and barrel.

The media is very adept in rumormongering....

here's a taste of it in one of their most imfamous rumor passing of the Dem primaries...problem is...they kept getting caught!

Campaign Desk, a Project of the Columbia Journalism Review at Columbia Graduate School of Journalism
The original Story about the "rumor"......"Drudge, Dickens and the Death Rattle (?) of a rumor"
http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000158.asp

In reference to Newsweek's Jonathan Alter's CW - Newsweek Didn't http://www.cjr.org/blog/archives/cat_fact_check.asp#000...

and again to Nedra Pickler "In the Dark on Wesley Clark" http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000543.asp

and to Peter Canellos as an answer to his Boston Globe piece, "the Drudge Report: the Gift that keeps on giving" http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000556.asp

Ryan Lizza, one of the reporters present of the New Republic initially: http://www.tnr.com/blog/campaignjournal?pid=1337
and Again Ryan Lizza, more recently: http://www.tnr.com/blog/campaignjournal?pid=1655

Nick Confessore of prospect offers his view: http://www.prospect.org/weblog /

as does AmySullivan of Political Aims http://gadflyer.com/politicalaims/index.php?Week=200407

[lojasmo]

154. Direct quote from a DNC elector regarding Hillary/Howard (from myDD)

"I asked a DNC member I know personally, what he thought about Dean's chances. He said there is really one main impediment and gave a very simple, direct suggestion for activists. He said, 'you need to apply tremendous pressure to Hillary.' I asked, 'Are you saying she's in the way?' He replied: "Yes!" --- EmilyD, from DailyKos account of conversation at DNC Western Regional Caucus, 1/22/05

[DemDogs]

168. Always heard that Clinton and Dean did not get along

IF Clinton pushed Clark into the race, that could explain a lot.

[FrenchieCat]

170. And "what if "Clinton didn't "push" Wes Clark into the race?

"What if" 70 thousand letters started pouring in asking Clark to run for President.....folks who had watched CNN during the Iraq War, witnessed him defending Michael Moore "live" when no one else with gravitas would..those who had followed the Kosovo war in 1999....those who read his "best selling" book...Waging Modern Wars...those who heard both or one of his testimonies in front of congress during the build up to the Iraq War in Sept of 2002...those who heard him talk about his "liberalism and what it meant" on Bill Mahr?

"What if" Clinton and Wes Clark talked occasionally...because they are friends, one served under the other, both are were Rhodes Scholars, and both are from Arkansas? "What if" Wes Clark mentioned the letters and that people were asking him to run? "What if" Bill Clinton felt that Howard Dean couldn't win the Presidency in a General Election because of his lack of Foreign policy and National Security credentials? "What if Clinton....like Charlie Rangel and others felt that Wes Clark could win against a Wartime president during a war?

"What if" Clark is really his own man and doesn't take kindly to "pushing"? "What if" Wes Clark understood what was going on in the Bush White House with this Iraq War and wanted to kick Bush's ass for it? "What if" Clark was never a "Yes" man and, in fact, lost his job due to it? "What if" Clark was hollering about Rwanda and got ignored? "What if" Clark attained his rank as a 4 star General by doing his job and by not kissing Ass?

Now on the other hand...."What if" Gore, our elected non president wanted to teach those "powers that be" a lesson that had decided to "push" him not to run again because they feared that he would be too polarizing (a la Hillary?) and chose John Kerry instead? "What if" that was the reason that Gore endorsed Howard Dean at a crucial moment in the primaries and told Dems to "fall in line".

"What if" Howard Dean knew that Wes Clark had never been a Republican and said it anyway? "What if" Howard Dean knew very well Wes' position against the Iraq War cause he had heard his testimonies (and had used him as his Foreign policy advisor), yet decided to continue to say that he was the only one running against the War? "What if" Howard Dean really did talk to Wes Clark about Clark being his VP, and later denied it?

What if, What if, What if?

That all of that in perceptive could explain a lot.....now couldn't it?

[radio4progressives]

169. Missed this interview but the campaign against Dean is NOT a GOP

campaign, though i'm sure they're loving this.

Simon Rosenberg was interviewed on the Ed Schultz show a couple of weeks ago, and he talked about the New Democratic Network, and Clinton is dirctly associated with this doctrine, and Roseberg is directly tied to Clinton as an advisor.

The Rosenberg's campaign appears to be as heavily financed as it has been brutal. Pointing these facts out, is not about "playing victim".

pointing out the breadth and scope of the campaign battle is simply outlining the battlefield, and identifying who the "enemy" is in for the benefit of supporters and observers and to put opponents on notice that you're on to their game.

:nopity: it's politics, just like this thread... :nopity:

[LSK]

171. IMO EVERYONE IN THE MEDIA IS A RETHUG WHORE

So I take what any of them have to say only with a grain of salt. I assume they all have a motive to screw the left until proven otherwise.

[bklyncowgirl]

173. Sorry, there is a power struggle going on--is anybody really surprised?

What I don't understand is why anyone would be surprised at any of these allegations.

Would Hillary Clinton, who is planning on running for President, want a guy who believes that her husband had a hand in torpedoing his own presidential campeign as DNC chair? Of course not.

Would the DLC, who have pretty much had their own way in the party for years say, "Gee, Howard, we've never thought of it that way. Surely you're right." Of course not.

Would Washington insiders want a guy who proclaims himself the leader of the outsiders taking a position of power in the party? (even if he is really an insider as some suggest) Of course not.

Would politicians who sincerely believe that in order to win the party must move further to the right on many issues like the idea that the leading candidate for the DNC chair is a former New England governor who, aside from his infamous Iowa scream, is best known for his strong opposition to the Iraq war and signing the first law in the country legalizing gay civil unions? Of course not.

I like the idea of Dean chairing the DNC because I think the party needs a jolt of energy and new ideas. Of the guys who are running, Dean is the one who is most likely to do just that. He taught the old donkey some new tricks during his presidential bid, something that hasn't happened in quite a while. I certainly wouldn't deny, however, that there aren't people who feel threatened by Dean and that they wouldn't do whatever they could to stop him.