Some things said on DU: What bothers me most is a...

[jswordy]

...kind of general smugness that in my view is part of why our party is falling out of favor with the common voters. How often have you heard or seen these among the smug Democrats? Conservatives are losers, they are idiots, dummies. People who vote for them are just too stupid to know better. Bush is a monkey, etc.

Anyone who disagrees with the Democratic viewpoint is a lesser individual in the eyes of the superior libs. This is the fertile ground Republicans have plowed for years to lure voters to their side.

Hey, they say, we are like you. We are no better than you. We share your values, and we value you.

Now lots of folks know that is a marketing smokescreen to get elected. But it works, as opposed to the in your face nose in the air Democratic attitude that is all too prevalent.

I like to use this analogy:

Salesman: It is obvious that because you drive a Ford, sir, you are a complete idiot. Can't you see how foolish you have been, to be duped into driving a Ford? How stupid! Now then, I know what is best for you. You need to buy a new Chevy from me!

Uh...betcha he doesn't make the sale!

Myself, I have many Republican friends (for which I have been skewered by the radical left) and I see them as human beings as well as a set of political beliefs. It will not be accepted by many here, but I swear to you they are as intelligent, loving, fun, caring and patriotic as any Democrat.

My doctor is a Republican. I have been told by superior libs that that means he is too stupid to be trusted with my health care. Geez.

Until our party's members say "We value you" to voters, we won't have made the first step to winning again. We need to get off our superior streak and stop demeaning people becaue of how they voted last time if we want them to vote for us this time.

We can start right here at DU. Let's attack the policies and priorities, not the people.

I won't hold my breath.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. The GOP attacks people and they win!

You have no agruement sir.

:eyes:

[ClassWarrior]

2. They attack the leaders, not the people.

Important distinction.

NGU.

[xultar]

4. TRUE! We are attacking the people and each other. We'll lose

if this shit continues.

[Tempest]

6. Oh, really?

Since when is Moveon and its members "the leaders"?

Since when is Mike Moore "the leaders"?

[Name removed]

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[Tempest]

44. Opinion leaders?

Leaders are those who run the show.

That would be Democrat Senators, Representatives, the DNC and DLC.

It would NOT be Moore or Moveon.


Opinion leaders. *snicker*

[Name removed]

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[Tempest]

56. You put Clinton to shame

It depends on what the definition of "is" is, is it?

You claimed only LEADERS were attacked.

Show us how Moveon and Moore are leaders.


The fact that Moveon and Moore are more than average Americans has NOTHING to do them with being leaders.

They are not my leaders, nor do they act upon my desires.


Your attempts to defend a statement which is indefensible is laughable.

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

71. Yes, I call people stupid by asking them not to call people stupid.

You win. <ROTFLMAO>

NGU.

[FromTheLeft]

96. They absolutely are leaders

Anyone weather we like it or not that is that much in the public eye are perceived as our leaders just like we percieve that Rush Limbaugh is one of theirs.

Just because these leaders have no offical copasity does not me the average american doewn't view them as the leaders of our party and allow themselves to be swayed but their feelings toward these leaders messages.

[Scatamooch]

162. Leaders???

What I have noticed on other boards is that the pubs have this fascination with Hollywood, and they hang on their every word. I, myself do not have time to follow other peoples lives or hang on their every word. Hell, I grew up in Southern California, and could care less what the Hollywood elite have to say...They are not running our government...unless you count Arnold. We don't need to hold Moore accountable, we need to hold our government officials accountable. When the 2000 election was stolen from the people and decided by the courts, the democratic party became bitter enemies of the consevative right. It split these United States right down the middle...For a brief momment after September 11th, 2001, the parties came together to fight a common enemy...THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE GIVEN BUSH A BLANK CHECK!!!...And we can now all see why. After Bush played the religion card, it was all over but the crying. 80% of Americans believe in a supreme being, and George banked on the religious right to carry him through another fours years...The man is not dumb...but he is a lunatic! He used al-Qeada as an excuse to invade the Middle East, and now we are ALL along for the ride! I really hope the elections in Iraq go well, but our's haven't for the past two elections, so maybe I'm asking to much. God help any country that models their elections after ours!


Scatamooch:bounce:

[QC]

102. Hmmm..... "Democrat" senators, "the definition of is"....

Those little catchphrases have a strangely familiar sound to them.

[ClassWarrior]

125. They got "flip-flop" in there too.

<LOL>

NGU.

[Silverhair]

181. Do you consider Limbaugh or Hannity to be Republican leaders? NT

[Name removed]

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[Gold Metal Flake]

21. Feminazis = Leaders?

Liberals = Leaders?

Anti-life = Leaders?

Bleeding Hearts = Leaders?

The right wing noise machine would have nothing to say if they removed social generalities from their litany of enemies.

[ClassWarrior]

23. So where in your little list does it say "American People??"

Yes, they take extreme social generalities and make boogie men out of them. They say "liberals are stupid" but they're not stupid enough themselves to say "the American People are stupid."

NGU.

[Gold Metal Flake]

27. Your statement...

"They attack the leaders, not the people.
Important distinction."


...is incorrect.

[ClassWarrior]

30. So give me an example of how they attack the American people.

NGU.

[Gold Metal Flake]

36. The onus is on you...

...to prove the targets of Limbaugh et al are NOT American people.

Prove your statement.

[ClassWarrior]

37. You know, that's a common RW tactic...

...to demand proof of a negative when they in fact have no proof or argument. The onus is on you.

NGU.

[Gold Metal Flake]

39. Your use of a RW tactic...

...to make a rash statement then attack those who question it.

Your statement:

"They attack the leaders, not the people.
Important distinction."


...is in error.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

52. You never asked me to prove my statement. You simply said it was wrong.

I, on the other hand, have asked you to prove your statement twice, and you keep changing the subject.

NGU.

[Gold Metal Flake]

54. My mesage has been consistant.

Your statement:

"They attack the leaders, not the people.
Important distinction."


...is in error.

[ClassWarrior]

58. No it hasn't. Elsewhere you've added words to my statement...

...to fit your argument.

NGU.

[Gold Metal Flake]

66. Your statement...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1532926#1532939


...is in error.

[Tempest]

70. Might as well give it up

He made a stupid statement and he can't defend it.

We've all done this before, but unlike many of us, he can't seem to admit it.

[Name removed]

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[Gold Metal Flake]

86. No drama, no attack.

Your statement...

"They attack the leaders, not the people.
Important distinction."


...is incorrect.

[Name removed]

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[Tempest]

51. Your logic is flawed

You made the original statement that only the leaders are attacked.

You were asked to provide evidence of your statement.

The ONUS is on YOU to provide proof of your statement.

[ClassWarrior]

55. Boy, you must be pyschic - because you read a lot into that statement...

...and then hands-down proclaimed it wrong. I never said ONLY the leaders are attacked. But if it suits your arguement to add words like "only," I guess you'll do it.

NGU.

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

65. Wow. Specious.

NGU.

[Tempest]

47. Here's an example

When they attack Liberals.

Or are Liberals only made up of "leaders"?


Funny, I'm a Liberal and I don't lead jack shit.

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

67. In case you didn't notice, I didn't defend it to you.

I asked you to read my answer elsewhere.

NGU.

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

127. I answered this elsewhere. Please see my other posts.

NGU.

[saracat]

205. All those mentioned ARE the American people!

Why then is it wrong to attack the repugs? Are they more American People than liberals are?

[KissMeKate]

163. I am not a nazi.

dehumanising feminists ir dehumanising people. american people.

[itzamirakul]

183. I haven't seen any posts where liberals have said

"American people are stupid." I HAVE seen posts where liberals have said that Republican "sheep" are stupid and I agree, because when you vote AGAINST YOUR OWN BEST INTERESTS, just because a Rush or an O'Reilly TOLD you to do so, there can be no description other than STUPID.

No matter HOW we try to asskiss Bush's supporters, they are not going to come over to our side because they enjoy the name-calling themselves.

Why is it that the liberals are always the ones who have to "compromise" or "go along to get along?" I don't see a single Republican saying, "Maybe we should compromise our stance on this issue." Heck no, they hold fast to their beliefs while some of our own want to give up some of the values that are the foundation of the liberal viewpoint. WHY?

[FromTheLeft]

187. Torture too...

Hey, if our soldiers are caught in battle now will it be unjust for them to be tortured.

It is not possible to walk the high road if you use those things you despise about those on the low.

[itzamirakul]

188. Yeah..."walk the high road..."

and keep right on losing to those who use the low road to great advantage." Sounds like great DLC-Centrist "How to keep the Republicans in power" philosophy to me.

Torture? Hell, the U.S. is ALREADY doing it to the Iraqis. How is "walking the high road" as Dems going to stop the tortures at Abu Gahraib or Guantanamo that are going on right now?

[FromTheLeft]

190. You missed my point...

We, being democrats, are always say that the things that the RWers do is dirty and low, they are out for themselves and not for anyone else. And We, being democrats, argue that we are out for the good of everyone. That sounds to me like a high road low road discussion, does it not? And if you want to walk the high road and fight for the right pricipals and ideologies, then don't you also have to hold yourself to a set of standards of conduct.

We say that it isn't right for them to paint us as hippies and liberal elite. We say it is wrong for them to run smear campaigns. But even as we say that what they do to us is wrong we call them stupid and ignorant. We run smear campaigns all over the country.

My point about torture was an analogy. By committing torture as a country we open our soldiers up to that fate themselves. And we did that by not following the rules we helped establish at the Geneva convention. So now when our soldiers are tortured, and if captured they will be, we have no right to complain.(and by us in this paragraph I mean all Americans, Republicans and Democrats, because even if we disagreed with them doing it. We are all responsible for the actions of our country).

[itzamirakul]

192. No, I did not miss your point and

I still hold my own.

[hector459]

33. Not true. The RW talk shows attack ALL liberals, and it works for them!!

Just listen to Rush and Hannity if you can bear it.

[ClassWarrior]

38. They attack a label. "Liberal."

Give me an example of them attacking "the American people."

NGU.

[TankLV]

171. So now you state that liberals are less than or not "american people"?!?!

Do you even LISTEN to the bull you are spewing?!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. Oh, yeah?

How many times have I heard conservatives refer to Democrats as "elitist yuppies" or "Godless socialists" or "latte-sipping intellectuals"?

[ClassWarrior]

113. Those are cartoons and straw dogs.

How many times have you heard conservatives refer to THE AMERICAN PEOPLE as any of those things? It's always an undefined "other."

NGU.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. They're dissing HALF the American people

when they make curled-lip remarks about "liberals."

My disdain is reserved only for the wilfully ignorant.

[ClassWarrior]

138. Except, far, far fewer than half the American people...

...IDENTIFY themselves as "liberals." That's the key difference. "They're not talking about me, Joe Bluecollar, they're talking about those damn liburls like John Kerry."

And this makes another fine argument for calling ourselves Progressives.

NGU.

[TankLV]

173. "Half the country are not Americans?

So people who identify themselves as liberals are not Americans?

That is what you are saying!

[itzamirakul]

186. Ever read JFK's definition of a "liberal?"

1. JFK: "What is a Liberal"


Sen. John F. Kennedy, acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination, September 14, 1960.

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

But first, I would like to say what I understand the word "Liberal" to mean and explain in the process why I consider myself to be a "Liberal," and what it means in the presidential election of 1960.

In short, having set forth my view -- I hope for all time -- two nights ago in Houston, on the proper relationship between church and state, I want to take the opportunity to set forth my views on the proper relationship between the state and the citizen. This is my political credo:

I believe in human dignity as the source of national purpose, in human liberty as the source of national action, in the human heart as the source of national compassion, and in the human mind as the source of our invention and our ideas. It is, I believe, the faith in our fellow citizens as individuals and as people that lies at the heart of the liberal faith. For liberalism is not so much a party creed or set of fixed platform promises as it is an attitude of mind and heart, a faith in man's ability through the experiences of his reason and judgment to increase for himself and his fellow men the amount of justice and freedom and brotherhood which all human life deserves.

More: http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/whatis.html

*************************
I got this info from a post by BlueEyedSon on 1/24/05

[FromTheLeft]

189. That is beautiful

And as a liberal myself I would love it if that was how the world viewed us, but even JFK knew how the opposition painted liberals...

"If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar..."

I understand that his speech dispelled that image, but in todays RW Media what do you think would be the soundbite?

[itzamirakul]

193. It's not so much about the soundbyte as it is about...

getting Democrats to see what the word "liberal" actually means so that some of us can stop being ashamed to use it. And also to educate enough Repubs to see that they cannot insult us by calling us "liberals."

And I agree...it is beautiful....

[sympa]

219. i can't help but think of how the word liberal has been demonized

and look at the polling on the issues...
the majority of the american people believe in the principles of the democratic party but won't vote for democrats because of the RW successful effort to turn the word 'liberal' into the leprosy of Jesus' day. i was listening to the malloy show the other night and a RWer caller called mike a 'democrat liberal' as if it were the worst insult in the world. and the democratic party (as a general rule) has not stood up for and owned the word 'liberal'.
so i believe the problem lies both with the RW attack machine with its desire to obliterate the democratic party and with the democratic party not stepping up and saying "Hell yes i'm i liberal! i'm proud of it! and i'll tell you why."

we've been too afraid to really confront them, our leaders have especially been too afraid to confront them.

for me though (back to talking about the original post), i believe in civilized dialogue and honest debate. i don't believe that conservative principles are necessarily evil. however the conservatives that promote an agenda of torture, genocide, empirialism, the erosion of civil rights...for me (who LOVES nuance and gray area) i'm in shock that anyone would suggest have a real dialogue with them (and i feel entitled to call supporters of such agendas stupid and ignorant and/or evil because that is EXACTLY what they are because committing the above offenses is EVIL). you can't have a real dialogue with someone who blinds themselves with faith out of fear. it isn't possible and you can't win.
they will have to decide for themselves to be informed and strong and ethical. you can't make someone be a decent person. don't judge us for calling a spade a spade.

btw, i'm a liberal jane blue-collar :)

[Redleg]

152. How many times have you heard a Dem say the American people are stupid?

EOM

[ClassWarrior]

154. On this thread or ever?

NGU.

[Fla Dem]

133. I beg to differ.............

We are called :
Left wing radicals
Tree huggers
Socialists
Communists
Eastern Elite
Smug
Femme Nazi's
Abortionists
Baby killers
Un-Christian
Anti-religious
Tax and spend liberals
Out of touch
Cowards
Amoral
Unpatriotic
Appeasers
Should I go on ??????

We have had every label imaginable put on us. It's about time we started being a little tougher in calling a liar a liar. We have been appeasers in the Senate and house. Hoping that if we go along, we'll get along. It doesn't work, because the Republicans do not give back in kind. Since Gingrich it's been that way. Delay has raised it to an art form. We'll get absolutely NOTHING being nice except a kick in the ass. So we might as well take off the gloves and make a fight out of it.

[ClassWarrior]

153. I'm talking about mom & pop, not you and me.

We identify ourselves as Progressives. They identify themselves as average Americans. I'm not saying be nice to the Radical RW!! I'm saying BE SMART AND STRATEGIC ABOUT IT. Don't just throw third-grade names around at everyone - craft names and images that have A STRATEGIC IMPACT on the debate.

For a better explanation than I can give here, read George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant." You talk about calling out liars - Lakoff says that won't work. Everybody lies to one degree or another, and everybody expects politicians to lie. It comes with the territory. But if we think about it a little harder, using Lakoff's reasoning, we come up with "betrayal of trust." Now we expect a President to lie, at least a little, but it would be almost unthinkable to have a President who "betrays our trust."

That's a smarter way of saying the same thing. I'm not saying to back off or play nice (in fact, anyone who knows me would find that implication hysterical). I'm saying AIM before you SHOOT, or you're going to take out innocent people who could be our allies.

NGU.

[Capn Sunshine]

150. How is calling liberals "Traitors" and "Terrorist sympathizers"

Not attacking peo0ple? They use moral superority as a bludgeon; they pressure church and synagogue members to vote their way or face the wrath of God, who is on their side.

Now what was that again?

[ClassWarrior]

155. I said they don't attack THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Mom & pop. The salt of the earth. Joe Lunchbucket.

The Radical RW makes up phantoms like latte-drinking liberals - who are dirty hippies and rich elitists at the same time - and attacks THEM as traitors and terrorist sympathizers. Sick and insidious to be sure, but that's the way they work. Meanwhile the freaks kiss up to the average folks who don't identify with any political labels - the majority of voters in this country - and they think, "Hmmmm... I'm glad I'm not like those wackos."

NGU.

[TankLV]

168. I must have missed it between all the venom for

GAY persons,
Liberals,
Democrats,
Environmentalists,
Peace activists,
Women,
French, Germans, anybody foreign and not bought by them,
Scientists,
Teachers,
Union workers,
Workers in general,
Etc.
Etc.

Yeah, sounds like thy sure don't attack people at all!

[humhoney]

221. The GOP attacks people and they win!

Whoa there!!! To be fair, there has been some pretty nasty stuff coming from our side too.

[Walt Starr]

3. If I discovered my doctor was a Republican

I'd find another doctor. I do not, cannot, and will not trust a Republican, period.

[scbluevoter]

17. Uh, most doctors are white men. . .

and do you know how most white men vote?

[jswordy]

26. There's the exact attitude to which I refer!

Come on, people! Party affiliation ought not to be some kind of caste system. I'm sorry, but that is not only a disappointing attitude, it goes against the very grain of what liberalism is supposed to represent. It is every bit as narrow-minded as we like to point out we think they are!

I would throw out my doctor's vast knowledge and accurate treatment solely because he voted for Bush? That is ludicrous!

[KissMeKate]

166. plenty of democrats with vast knowledge and experience.

plenty of great people who are also democrats who can use our support. I dont think its narrow minded to support democrats with our buisiness- support democratic leaders? why not support democratic followers too?

[Dump the deficit]

151. Who can we trust?

"I'd find another doctor. I do not, cannot, and will not trust a Republican, period."

I just don't get that! People in my life are all parties and no parties.

[KissMeKate]

164. most doctors are republican.

better question him.

but take heart- most nurses are democrats :)

[Silverhair]

182. What if your doctor told you that his vote was private?

This is a country of secret ballots. What if he said it was none of your business?

[KissMeKate]

198. I would evaluate possibility of seeking a proud democrat doctor.

Supporting the democrats is nothing to be ahsamed of.

[FromTheLeft]

210. Now you sound as bad as the religious right

That is discrimination against republicans.

As I see it we are on our way toward a situation like the one in Iraq right here. Shiite and Sunni...republicans and democrats. Two groups of people who feverishly hate each other living in the same country.

[KissMeKate]

222. yes! it IS discrimination against Republicans! I dont owe them a living!

You seem to think I owe people my hard earned money- I dont!

I choose who I have as my doctor- and it is a democrat.

Dont try to preach away my consumer choice.

I DONT owe conservatives a living.

[FromTheLeft]

226. Why shouldn't I, You were

preaching by suggesting that we should only try and find doctors who were democrats.

I choose my doctors based on who I find to be compitent doctors. Doctors who understand how my medical issues fit in with the rest of my life. Not on who they vote for.

[KissMeKate]

227. BULL- I used "I" statements- as in, what *I* would do- nice try.

dont play dirty- its unbecoming and weakens your stance in the debate.


I NEVER said or even implied "WE SHOULD" do anything in respect to employing republicans.

[FromTheLeft]

231. There is syntax and then there is tone

Freshman English. In a conversation on personal values when one uses statements such as "I would look for a proud democratic doctor" that is normally viewed not only as a desciption of ones person personal beliefs or actions but a prescription of what those with opposing views or actions should do according to said person(I got very good grades in that class for everything except my use of punctuation, damn run on sentences).

Now if you did not mean that as a suggestion for what we all should do then I apoligize.

Edit: removal of a sentance that what a little harsh.

[KissMeKate]

232. and then there are silly semantics arguments.

there was NEVER a "should", I have never told people they must be like me to be democrats, if you look at my overall rhetoric on this board.

It is inconsistant with my belief that we as the left, dont have to all be alike.


Again, Im not trying to preach away your consumer choice by answering someones question about what they would do.

My money is my money, and I will spend it on progressives, Democrats, and others who support my ideals. (Any "pressure" you feel to do the same from that statement is pure fiction.)

[CWebster]

5. Well, it looks and sounds like the Senate Republicans are up

there badgering, bullying, chastising, condemning Democrats for not following in lock-step. Maybe you should turn your gaze?

[Arkana]

7. The GOP uses major smear tactics, and they win (steal) elections

And incidentally, Bush* IS a chimp.

[Colm]

8. I tend to agree with you're proposition. . . .

. . but it swings both ways. I think liberals tend to condescend others based on intellect, education, and at times, experience. This often leaves those condescended with the perception that liberals think they know it all.

Conservatives, on the otherhand, have coopeted away from the liberals patriotism, religion and so-called american values to include as many as possible, and only exclude those who vocally disagree with them.

The democratic party needs to re-claim patriotism, community, citizenship, religion (both the absence of and existance of) and hard work ethics to use to seperate who they include in their democratic ideals as well as to seperate out the ultra right wing facists who would like nothing more than to destroy what so many have fought to preserve.

[classof56]

9. Oh, let us express ourselves, okay?

You gotta wonder about what's inside peoples' heads that they go along with the Bush crowd and policies. I don't make it a habit of attacking people individually--and I have some R acquaintances that I associate with and don't rag on--but we all need a safe place to go and unload our thoughts and frustrations about what is raging on around us. I think DU serves that purpose, and I'm not sure how many outside our "borders" notice what we feel free to express here. I don't go on "freeper" websites because I can't deal with the awful and ugly things they feel free to express there about anyone they choose--people and not just leaders or policies.

Just some thoughts from the Tired Old Cynic.

[Silverhair]

184. DU is noticed outside our borders.

Rush has commented many times on the more outrageous of the DU posts, and then claims that those posts are typical of Democrats in general. Recently a really far out DU post showed up in the New York Times. Yes, the rest of the world is watching.

[Vinnie From Indy]

10. What A Load O' Crap!

All viewpoints are not equal, some are wrong. You should be reminded that there were millions of people in Germany that VOTED for Adolf Hitler. They did not all share his madness and evil intent. They were duped, lied to and decieved under the guise of, get this, PATRIOTISM! I am sure there were many Doctors that voted for Der Fuhrer as well.

In your wildest dreams do you actually envision a time when the Rethugs, especially of the Rush Limbaugh wing, will STOP lying about Democrats and their supposed smugness? Please! Your post is nonsense!

[bemildred]

15. Giant straw man. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. The repuke electorate ARE a bunch of dittohead, ignorant, uninformed

bunch of sheeple. They believe everything that Limpballs tells them. They don't read. They ignore FACTS. G-D put the chimp in office. They steal elections. They lie about EVERYTHING. They kill people out of greed for oil. They hate poor people. (They're lazy you know)

Your doctor is a repuke probably because of his pocketbook...aka...GREED. They're all alike. They want money. Piss on anyone who doesn't have enough money. I've got mine, to hell with you. Get your own. Who cares if you were born into poverty and haven't had the privledges of we rich white boys. Piss on ya.

THEY started this BULLSHIT by trying to destroy Bill Clinton for 8 fucking years. Don't dump on the Democrats for dishing it back. They deserve eveything they get and more. IMCPO

[quinnox]

12. They deserve it!!!

If it walks like a duck its a damn duck.

If Bush and the other republicans lie (and they do), well then they are lying scum!

[MsMagnificent]

13. Their thought processes are either Stupid or Insane

The Democrats are being optimists by reasoning it's Stupidity, IMHO

[ClassWarrior]

20. WRONG. You badly need to read "Don't Think of an Elephant."

And you might as well read Sun Tsu while you're at it, because you never win a war by underestimating the enemy.

NGU.

[jswordy]

29. And read "What's the Matter With Kansas" n/t

[MsMagnificent]

14. duplicate post

[jswordy]

24. ????

No, it's the first time I'VE posted it.

[purji]

119. Ms M was saying that post 13 and 14 are duplicate posts

Probably an error in posting she wasn't talking to you directly.

[MsMagnificent]

156. My own 2 posts in a row -- 2nd was a dupe

which is what I meant -- did not mean to infer yours was a dupe.

[wtbymark]

18. That is a very good point

i also have a lot of republican friends (my drummer is a stout republican). I just had a conversation with a co-worker that is republican, we have very civil debates on policy, and most Americans want the same goals, but there are many different ways to meet these goals. I consider myself a progressive democrat, and would like to see the system fixed in a way that doesn't dissenfranchise the less fortunate. I do believe that there is a valid threat by the 'fundies' and the 'freepers' but these are about Social issues, not political policy.

[sendero]

19. Strange...

... the right has (via Linmbaugh and others) made "liberal" a dirty word. You should hear the things they call us. How bad has it hurt them?

Before Dems can win any power in the government, they must understand the culture of this country. Ever watch TV? Movies? Understand the "winner" vs. "loser" dynamic that has been set up? Understand the "I'm about me" view that is the predominant ideal in American culture?

Please - if you really think that the reason we are not winning is that we are too rough on the other side, your head in so far in the sand you can't breathe.

[ClassWarrior]

22. We can be rough on "the other side"...

I think the OP's point was that we shouldn't be beating up THE PEOPLE - who SHOULD be voting for us, and who we want to attract. Note that the Radical RW attacks "liberals," who are some cartoon cross between hippies and wimps. They never attack "mom and pop" or "the American people."

We can attack Radical RWers - but I would NEVER say, "The American people are stupid." First of all, it's not true on the whole. Second of all, THEY'RE not my enemies - Bush**, Cheney**, Rumsfeld, Wolfwitz, and the rest of the ghouls manipulating the American people are the enemies.

We need to get it straight.

NGU.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

107. You are missing the point also..

... I am not on the campaign trail. I would not recommend to any politician to tell the American people they are stupid.

What I am advocating is much, much tougher rhetoric from the Dem party and our elected officials against policies.

I realize the original post was about what is said here. Who the fuck cares? If you are a conservative and don't like what you read here, I suggest you go to freerepublic.com and tell me it's better. Go on, I dare ya.

And finally, it is quite possible to have the skills needed to get elected and not have the skills to effectively run a country. They are not the same skills and I've see analogous situations in business over and over. Folks who are good at moving up the corporate ladder are not necessarily effective executives once they reach the top.

We won't be running against W again. And we won't really even be able to run against his record. We'd better learn to frame the debate and to get media time by making UNEQUIVOCAL, EXCORCIATING DENUNCIATIONS OF POLICIES THAT HAVE FAILED COMPLETELY.

[jswordy]

121. The original post was NOT about what is said on here.

Sigh. It was about the image projected by the party.

[sendero]

128. By whom?

That is my point, by whom? As a group, our Dem leaders don't talk enough smack. That is my point.

As for MM or other folks, I don't think the "image of the party" they project is any worse than the one that various free agent Republicans present.

And frankly, I think that the fact that Dems and Dem supporters are too nice and that has hurt us. If you cannot muster any passion in your argument, nobody is going to hear you.

[jswordy]

43. It's something we need to examine, but we aren't ready yet

To extrapolate further, look what the national party did when one of its primary candidates said Democrats ought to be the party of people in the South, too. His comment was edited down to just the guns in pickups, Confederate flag elements (uh...note that they are the most inflammatory), then was completely removed from its larger context, then was immolated by the superior liberal Democrats.

That resonated throughout the South, in newspapers and editorials.

Gee..how many Southern states did we win? Win, hell...what am I thinking of? How many did we even bother to CAMPAIGN in?

We are so superior to Southerners, a backward and ignorant breed, that we just concede their stupid votes to the GOP.

Hmmm...who controls the national government right now?

Heheheheh...this is a topic the party sorely needs to do some soul-searching on, but there is way too much denial at present to even start the process. Yet it is a fundamental stumbling block for us.

[jswordy]

34. Uh, that's not what I said.

sendero wrote: Please - if you really think that the reason we are not winning is that we are too rough on the other side, your head in so far in the sand you can't breathe.

Ratcheting up the debate beyond the facts in evidence is another flaw I see here a lot. But that's another topic.

I said, ...that in my view is part of why our party is falling out of favor...

I also said nothing about being "too rough on the other side." What I said was Until our party's members say "We value you" to voters, we won't have made the first step to winning again. We need to get off our superior streak and stop demeaning people becaue of how they voted last time if we want them to vote for us this time. (sic)

[sendero]

110. Sir..

.. or madam, do you really see Dem pols on the campaign trail telling Americans they are stupid? Really?

Or are you just talking about a collection of pissed off Dems on a freaking message board?

Because frankly, if you think the American people are real concerned with anything said here... well, I can't say anything nice so I'll say nothing.

[jswordy]

124. It's sir. Yes, I see Dem pols telling Americans they are stupid.

I watched the party lose thousands of Southern votes in one fell swoop -- in 3 days -- when its Beltway elite first distorted and took out of context comments during the primary by Howard Dean saying we need to be the party of Southerners, too, and then the smug Northern Dems all piled on and completely vilified them.

That played huge in the South. Huge.

Let's see, how many Southern states did we win? How many did we even bother to campaign in?

(Dean, BTW, campaigned in the primaries in Georgia, Alabama and other Southern states. He will be appearing in Florida and Mississippi after the DNC chair vote is taken...regardless of the result.)

That's just one example. If you cannot hear the arrogance of the party, my friend, you are tone deaf to what the average voter hears.

Tone deaf. yes, that's it. That is part of the problem, too.

As far as DU, it has no direct relevance to the party at all, nor would I expect it to. But it's a big online gathering of rabid Dems. Maybe "rabid" is why the party doesn't listen more closely.

[sendero]

130. So we have to watch what we say...

... because a beltway elite might distort our words or take them out of context.

Thanks for that, now I know you have no point. That is just what the pukes want, for us to shut up.

I don't think so, and not only that, it looks like a few Dem congresspersons don't think so either.

[txaslftist]

31. We value you. Please kick us again...

LOL

[Bridget Burke]

32. Do you really believe that undecided voters will come to DU,

Read through a good assortment of threads, & be turned against Democrats because of a few insults?

Will they really reject the large amount of valuable information & the friendly silliness of the Loung because of a few postings? Postings that may have been made by disruptors, in fact?

[ClassWarrior]

35. No, I believe that we carry our attitudes into real life.

I agree that most of the crap that happens here is the work of disruptors, but I also think we need a major attitude adjustment in order to start winning again. Please read "Don't Think of an Elephant," then PM me and let me know your thoughts.

NGU.

[jswordy]

41. Here again is that...

...inflammation of the rhetoric and debate, unsupported by my original post. I merely said in conclusion that we could start the process here at DU. That's all.

[realFedUp]

40. Your doctor doesn't make policy for me

I agree, disagreeing with positions and policy
is the high standard, but frankly you can't
get in the mud with the Republicans if you
want to stay clean.

I don't mind getting dirty to make a point.

[jswordy]

46. My doctor doesn't make policy for me, either...

...he just votes for the men and women he believes are best suited to be in office, same as I do. Uh, isn't that the American way? And he also monitors my health and treats me effectively to prolong my life. He's highly intelligent and an excellent diagnostician.

[realFedUp]

60. I see your point of not painting all with a stupid brush & my point is

that your doctor as a Republican doesn't represent
many people or makes policies that affect many
people as do Republicans in all three branches
are doing now.

It goes without saying that all Republicans
aren't stupid...but when you are making up
soundbites against what is happening, one has
to make up sayings that sound almost as
stupid as what the Republican backroom boys
make up daily.

It's lovely to stay above the fray and just
argue positions, but you don't win races that
way.

[ClassWarrior]

83. Why are you attacking your DOCTOR - when the enemy is the Radical RW?

And why do you have to attack anyone with a childish, worthless insult like "stupid??" And one that lowers the expectations on the Radical RW to boot??

Why don't we attack them with smarter words like "criminal" and "murderer," instead of resorting to third grade insults that just help the other side?

NGU.

[jswordy]

92. I never said stay above the fray...

...I said quit insulting the very voters you need to be able to win.

[realFedUp]

98. which ones...the stupid ones or the smart ones...

:-)

[jswordy]

108. LOL

:eyes:

[FromTheLeft]

45. Amen!!!

After reading what is in this thread, every message every word, I say you are not only right, but a might as well be a mute. We as liberals do stick our noses in the air. We say that the people who vote for bush are stupid, instead of just stay that bushes policies are detrimental. We tell people that the are wrong for their feelings and beliefs. We assume that our way is right for everybody and that we know what is best.

There two different ways the parties are "recruiting" members, and as you read this I must for warn you most of this comes directly from fence sitter friends of mine with points of few on both sides.

Democrats: We want everyone to read and come to the right logical decision, which of course is our point of view on all issues. We have no time to work toward something, we want our way, right now! Those of you who do not believe not only as we do on everything, but to the point of zealotry on those issues is stupid and wrong.

Republicans: We believe that you deserve more money in your pocket. We believe that evil is wrong and we fight against it. We believe in God, Democracy, and the American Way of life. If you like any of that come with us and we will lead you there.

While I believe that very little of that is the truth remember that this is their perception. And when it comes to the choice you make on your unpapered touch screen ballot, perception is reality.

[Moderate Dem]

48. I agree...

I agree that both sides do it, I just think that the Republicans are better at it right now, and I also agree that calling those not on our side "stupid" is, ironically... stupid.

And judging people solely on their political affiliation? That is a condescending, elitest attitude that explains why we got our ass kicked last November.

[earth mom]

53. Sorry, but I've never met a rethug I liked or got along with. eom

[jswordy]

74. That is a very sad statement.

Perhaps your use of "rethug" points to why.

I generally feel that we are all vastly more similar as human beings than we are different. (And humans are vastly more similar to other animals than different, as well.)

But that is a liberal, broadminded idea. It then would follow that you give every human being the benefit of the doubt before prejudgment on any preconceptions and prejudices you may hold.

But perhaps I live in a world where the liberals aren't even liberal anymore. Wow. That is a wild thought! I will have to devote more time to exploring that. One avenue it could lead me to is, it could be possible that the more we OPPOSE the conservatives, the more LIKE them we become in our thought processes and actions. I have already identified that trend in our national opposition to terrorists.

Hmmm...the matter definitely seems to be worth more introspection. Perhaps both by me and by our party.

[earth mom]

136. No.

In the past I would just feel a sense of uncomfortableness around certain people and would then find out soon after or a while later that that person was a republican. (is that a more pc word for you?) Then I'd have an "aha!" moment when I realized why I didn't jibe with them in the first place.

These days, now that I'm fast approaching middle age, I'm able to go with my intuition-my gut reaction-and it's usually right. Sure, it would be great if we all could get along, but frankly it's tough for me to get along with-let alone understand-people who put money and a whole host of other B.S. before the welfare of all people or this planet as a whole. But hey, that's just me.

[gtp1976]

76. Is it the first thing you ask everyone you meet?

If not, how do you know you haven't met one and just didn't know he/she was one?

[4_TN_TITANS]

62. An honorable idea

but the neocons are unhonorable in their intents and actions. Of course every Republican isn't a complete idiot, but every Republican who backs BushCo is at least partially blind and or uninformed.

[kentuck]

63. You're assuming people can't handle the truth....

and you may be right?

[adigal]

69. You are kidding, right???

Why don't you listen to Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Limbaugh. I got turned off to the Republican party about 5 YEARS ago when I heard Rush talk about the enemy - and it was the DEMS!!!!

EVERY SINGLE DAY Hannity calls liberals evil and says they are a threat to the country. Is he a leader???? By your definition, YES!!!

The reason the Dems lose is that they play TOO NICE!!! I was a repub, I know how they play, they play to destroy and there are no rules. Lying? Fine! Cheating? Great!! As long as they win.

So I don't know your motivation but it looks like what you are suggesting will make the Dems lose even more. As far as the people Dems make fun of, NO WAY would those people ever vote Dem. It is not the middle the dems make fun of - it is the uneducated, ill-informed people who watch Fox News and think Hannity is God.

[ClassWarrior]

78. I agree - we shouldn't play nice... with the Radical RW...

...but are we going to trash mom & pop next door who voted for Bush** because they are way misinformed by the Corporate Media?? This is the OP's point. We can trash Radical RWers, but we're just shooting ourselves in the foot when we call the American people stupid.

NGU.

[Vinnie From Indy]

72. This 'Advice" is the KISS OF DEATH to Democrats

This post is a stinking, pile of horse shit for several reasons.

Firstly, the vast majority of media in America today is either owned or co-opted by the fanatical right wing. Democrats have been, and will continue to be, vilified and lied about by the right wing echo chamber regardless of our attitude toward right wing voters.

Secondly, the Democrats have, in fact, gone along with BushCo.'s insane policies over the last few years and look what that got them. I advocate a change in strategy for the Democrats and it involves adopting the "stop catching punches and start throwing punches" philosophy of politics.

Thirdly, there are a significant number of people that DO NOT believe Bush won this, or the last election, fairly. For them, your post is meaningless because it is presumes Bush was actually the preferred candidate. They do not believe that 9 million new Christians emerged from their caves to vote. They do not believe election results that have anomalies and mistakes favoring Bush at rate of 9 to 1 over Kerry across the country. Quite simply they do not believe Rush Limbaugh should be the one with his hand on the rudder of our party.

[jswordy]

82. It is obvious that you and many posters in this thread...

...have been so zealous in your inflammatory reactions that you have completely misread my entire post. Either that, or the situation is even more hopeless for our party than I had thought.

[Vinnie From Indy]

90. Words mean things! Maybe you should reframe your argument.

[jswordy]

94. ROFLMAO...uh, I write for a living, my friend. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

172. The "many posters" generally seem to be folks who just got here.

You do the math.

[I7G0D]

77. Hmmm

Well you make some valid points but I will throw my 2 cents in. I have many friends both liberal, conservative, men ,women, straight, gay, black, and white. We also have lively discussions with our republican counterparts but in the end we know where to stop the politics and just get along because of our other mutual interests.

[jswordy]

89. Thank you. You get it.

We must first value the human being, then concern ourselves with other aspects that comprise a PORTION of that total person.

My basic premise is that we as a party tend to dismiss out of hand large segments of the voting public. We never give them a chance to vote for us, because we smugly devalue them in advance in sweeping motions, as we did with the South in '04.

You know, it is great to want liberal ideas to be the law of the land. But it is rough to do that when you are not in power to get the laws passed. And it is hard to "sell yourself" to people you have consistently and high-handedly put down.

I wonder if that culture can change in our party, is all. I wonder. Because it does seem to me that we are becoming less liberal in our attitudes. I never understood liberalism to mean narrow-mindedness. Or prejudice.

Definitely worth some more thought and reading on my part.

Now, does that mean I want us to wimp out? Nope. I want a muscular party that takes it to the GOP in every way, shape and form. But I also want a party that doesn't write off masses of voters as idiots and refuse to even try to reach out to them.

[Vinnie From Indy]

95. I would Put It This Way

I do not, in fact, believe that Shrub and his merry band of criminals actually represents the Republican values I remember my neighbors celebrating. I think the way to reach out to Repubs is to ask them what values do they hold dear and then ask them to look at Shrub and see if they can find the same values. ShrubCo. is a very extreme right wing group and most Repub's, if guided, can easily see that his words are not matching his deeds.

[jswordy]

106. See my post #99 n/t

[jswordy]

79. Let me put it to you this way...SHOW OF HANDS, PLEASE

How many here would rather be CORRECT than HAPPY?

[Vinnie From Indy]

88. That Depends!

Are you talking "Matrix" style happy?

Does being "happy" include not caring that my government is slaughtering innocent people by the truckload based on a lie? That kind of happy?

Does your definition of "happy" include saddling generations of Americans to come with debt that is incurred so modern day robber barons can own a few more houses on golf courses? Is that what you mean?

Is the type of "happiness" you describe able to be achieved in spite of my knowledge that senior members of my government have turned back the clock and adopted a policy of torture and built a gulag system spanning the globe? Knowing that, will I still be happy?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. John Stuart Mill

".....Better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied..."

[NuttyFluffers]

158. i'd rather be correct, of course.

ignorant bliss is only gonna get you in trouble. besides, i have a moral core to my being that i have to care about.

judgement before self-indulgence, of course.

[LibDemAlways]

81. Most chimp voters are probably more

ignorant than stupid. They are fed a continual load of rightwing crap by the corporate whores they've been brought up to trust.

They are too Goddamn lazy to investigate further and, if in passing, they hear a snippet of Boxer railing on a stolen election or calling Condi less than truthful, the whores set them "straight" that Boxer is a wacko.

The right has been denigrating the left for years. According to Rush we are all commie perverts and feminazis. He certainly doesn't make distinctions between Dem leaders and ordinary Dems.

I'm willing to speak rationally with anyone who is willing to listen and be open to my perspective. Unfortunately, the repukes I know either have the rightwing talking points ready and are unwilling to give an inch or they want to change the subject.

[jswordy]

99. I'm wondering how those you describe in your post....

...are any different from us? Many of us validate only the left side of the argument, and invalidate anything from the right, or in many cases, even the middle.

I wonder how "willing to speak rationally with anyone who is willing to listen and be open to my perspective" a person who calls that person a "repuke" can actually be?

Many posters here miss my entire point, and to an extent you do , too, LibDemAlways. The party has been missing my point for years, which as I said, I believe to be part of why we lose.

I think our message is a good one, but our smugness and our willingness to disenfranchise from us millions of voters in a wide sweep of the hand works to preclude the message from ever being delivered to them.

In the common vernacular, voters say: Now ya pissed me off. But I'll get ya back.

And damn if they didn't, huh? Even in the face of overwhelming facts. In the face of debates won by our candidate, clearly. The desire to get us back for our smugness toward them, and the span of voters we had pre-turned off to our message, were perhaps so great an impediment that nothing we said or did could have brought us a win. We had boxed ourselves off to the point where we ran our campaign in less than half the geographic country.

It bears some examination, is all I am saying.

[LibDemAlways]

114. When in the company of those who

vote "r" I refrain from using the term "repuke" -- though I am certainly thinking it and have every right to my opinion. I'm sure you've been in situations where you are thinking "This person's a dolt" or whatever and out of a sense of decorum keep quiet about it.
That's just being human.

And I do attempt to engage in civil discussions with people of all political persuasions. However, as I indicated above, the chimp voters I know are either thoroughly brainwashed by the corporate media or don't want to "talk politics." Wish I had a nickel for every time one of them said "Let's just agree to disagree."

I'm not missing your point at all. You are saying we should try to engage those who disagree with us in a positive way and not come across as condescending. All good in theory. But difficult to put into practice when one is being dismissed as a "wacko liberal."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. You Could Change The Parties And Post That At Free Republic Because They

Think The Same Thing About Us...


This a left of center talksite where folks come to let off steam....

[QC]

97. Much of what's posted here lately would fit in fine at Freak Republic

if only the name of the party were changed.

People always become what they hate, and unfortunately a lot of us here have put such a heavy emotional investment in hating freepers that they have become them.

[jswordy]

100. You both get it, too. Thanks for the posts. n/t

[Quixote1818]

109. Yes, it reminds me of the Muslims and the Palestinians

Each side waiting for the other side to reach out. Someone has to take the initiative to ask for peace yet still hold strong to your core values. All the great leaders through out history have done this. You don't see any condescending leaders on coins.

[melnjones]

93. I agree 110%

Yes, there is a need for people to have a place to vent frustration. I agree with that completely as well, and that is a main reason that there are places like DU. But often when I hear liberals totally insulting conservatives, it is sadly reminiscent of the exact things that we get upset at conservatives for doing. I grew up in a small Republican town in Indiana. I was a die-hard Republican (or at least I considered myself to be) until I got into college where I was gently introduced to new ideas over time. Do I believe that some conservatives are ignorant or naive in their thinking? Well, I'd have to believe that to some degree, as I think my beliefs are right. We all think our beliefs are right. However, does it do me one bit of good to constantly insult them to their faces or even in hiding? Not so much. Of course, this is all only IMHO and I know others would disagree with me.

[jswordy]

103. I am curious, so let me ask you...

Do you believe that some liberals are ignorant or naive in their thinking?

Frankly, I do. The whole thing is taoist in its own way.

[melnjones]

140. The truth?

Some of every group are ignorant/naive. It's the way it works. I have met people who, IMO, are so far "left" (define that as you will) that they are completely and totally living in a dream world. The same is true of some righties. But at the same time, who am I to judge? I think I'm correct, they think they are correct. Neither of us is God. What can you do besides engage in intentional, meaningful, CIVIL dialogue with those with whom we disagree, with the hope that both parties will learn in the process?

And therein is the problem. To engage in meaningful dialogue, you cannot approach it with the attitude which you spoke of in the original post. For it to be meaningful BOTH PARTIES have to enter it willing to actually listen to the other party and attempt to understand things from their perspective. Of course we already believe what we believe, you know? When you believe something, it's not like you just go waltzing around expecting others to change your mind. That's not what I'm saying. But there does have to be a willingness to at least learn ABOUT the other party or their perspective, etc. Reality is that sometimes people WILL change what they believe from such encounters. Oftentimes they won't. But mutual respect and understanding is never a bad thing.

One final problem- some people think that it is constructive to argue your beliefs with anyone. It's not. Some people are not going to receive you openly, and if you already know that, is there much point in dragging out such long dialogue with them? It causes bitterness and hatred and nothing more other than maybe the satisfaction of having given out a really good insult or two. It makes more sense to me to state your beliefs, why you have them, and if there is no possibility in sustaining meaningful conversation, leave it there. I struggle especially with being able to do this one. I don't do these things perfectly by any means, but they are at least goals that I aspire to.

[jswordy]

142. WOW! YOU GET IT! Help me spread the word, please!

:yourock:

[Quixote1818]

101. You are 100000% right!

[Quixote1818]

105. Will Rogers - I never met a man I didn't like!

Got to love Will Rogers as he looked for the good in all people. Democrats need to do that more. Look at peoples potential, find common ground and be respectful. You can be strong and still get your point across in a respectful way.

[sendero]

112. Yeah..

... that's working real well for us isn't it.

We just lost an election that should have been a landslide. Did you see a lot of comity, reaching out, deference to the opinions of others' in Bush**'s campaign?

This nice-nice shit has to end. Tom Daschle nice-niced himself right out of a job.

How long are some of you here going to advocate doing what HAS NOT WORKED SINCE THE 60s?

[Quixote1818]

115. We are not saying we can't be angry. We can be mad as hell but their

always has to be an underlying respect for the other person that is unless they deliberately deceive us such as in Bush and Condi's case. When deception occurs then we have every right to speak up and be mad as hell. But calling all republicans stupid and name calling will get us absolutely no where. Do you think Rush Limbaugh has brought many liberals over to his side? Absolutely not. I think you are confused with standing up for what is right and childish name calling. They are two different things. Thats the point the original post was making.

[ClassWarrior]

117. I'm advocating something VERY different.

You're advocating doing something that NEVER works, in place of what has not worked since the 60s. I'm advocating attacking the other side, but being strategic about it - not just attacking EVERYONE because we want to lash out. Read "Don't Think of an Elephant" and "The Art of War."

NGU.

[msgadget]

111. But DU is a Democratic watering hole,

a place for people to come and moan and groan AND discuss issues and policies. I sometimes am discouraged by what I read until I put it into context.

[Quixote1818]

116. Yes, I think it's OK to say what you really feel amung friends.

DU is for us to vent and come up with ideas. I agree with you.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msgadget]

120. I wonder if it's a matter of party or a fear of looking bad or crazy.

Which, with due respect to the original poster, is ridiculous since the other side revels in its unbridled partisanship. We certainly don't have more labels or insults than they.

[jswordy]

126. OP here. Let me set some things straight...

The topic says what it does about "Things said on DU:" because an earlier post about that had been locked.

The post is about the party's projected attitude. There are a few here who have enough friends over a wider sphere, or who otherwise have picked up on that I am saying. Sadly, most have missed my point or co-opted my message to deliver their own versions. (Which kind of IS my point.)

This place is merely a megaphone for the general attitude. Liberal in a post-"Crossfire" world doesn't seem to mean the same thing it did when I was growing up in the '60s and '70s anymore. Liberals seem now as narrow-minded as the other side is, picking and choosing their arguments and using the most personal put-downs to those who disagree.

I scratch my head here, because I was taught liberals were open-minded, live and let live, give the other fella the benefit of the doubt and a helpng hand kind of folks. Folks who cared about people, not just some laser-beam thin idealogical path.

Maybe not anymore, though, I dunno. As I said elsewhere in this thread, it seems the more we battle conservatives, the more we become like them. Just the same as the more we battle terrorists, the more we become like them. I want to take the fight to them, but not to dismiss thousands of voters out of hand as stupid.

I desire a populist Democratic party that genuinely identifies and connects with the real people out there in America, not some idealogue-driven shell organization that only reaches out when it is another election cycle.

We need to look at this as a party. Dunno if we have fallen far enough yet to really know we need to do so, but we need to do it.

[msgadget]

132. I'm sorry, I didn't completely get your original intent.

But, my answer wouldn't change much, if at all.

Yes, in some threads some responders show very little tolerance but I've almost always found a diversity of opinion here. Imo, it shows how liberal a place it is since it accomodates all manner of citizen. Our populace is diverse so a populist party allows for dissenting (and even derogatory) commentary, don't you think? Democrats are NOT the warm and fuzzy, dewy eyed Mommy party anymore. Most are in high battle mode and, as such, are quite reactionary.

Please don't be discouraged. As on Free Republic, the more assertive post but there are many lurkers who say nothing but feel as you do, I'm sure.

[ClassWarrior]

122. I would only count a handful of people out of 50,000 here...

...to be close enough friends to confide in them. And no one's stopping Radical RWers from reading what's written here.

NGU.

[Bethany Rockafella]

131. You must not pay attention to what Repukes say and do.

The bottom line is we all do it. The Repubs are more rabid imo. In fact, their rabid hatred is what got me interested in politics.

[Virginian]

225. Me too, sort of.

"their rabid hatred is what got me interested in politics."

I had been interested in the 60s, but then I became politically dormant.
I started hearing all the "hate speak" from Limbaugh and his ilk. I didn't want to be associated with people like that; they aren't nice people. The more I heard, the angrier it made me and the more resolved to be on the other side because I didnt' agree with it and couldn't condone it. I couldn't believe anyone would take Limbaugh seriously, but they do. I wonder if he was originally on the payola to get specific messages across. He seems to be the one to spread the talking points so everyone can stay in lock step.

[tom_paine]

134. You make a good point (several, actually)

But I don't think it is possible for the Democrats' to win the Imperial Throne until Amerika is free again.

And that may not happen in our lifetimes nor ever again (see Imperial Roman model after Caeser crossed the Rubicon).

What do I mean?

The restoration of the Rule of Law for ALL, not just opponents of Der Fuhrer.

The restoration of a Free and Independant Press with ethics rules that are enforced as well as the restoration of the Fairness Doctrine and other FCC Regs which the People Who Defeated Hitler created because they didn't want a Totalitarian Media in the Old Republic.

Of course, now we have the world most powerful and subtle Totalitarian Media in Amerika.

The repudiation rather than the wholesale embrace of Orwellianism as it is used by the Busheviks (much the same way Hitler, Stalin, and Ferd Marcos used it).

In other words, the return to prominence of that old saying "Watch what they do, not what they say."

In Orwell's 1984 or Bushmerika, the absolute reverse is true.

Oh, there's more: the exposing of the Federalist Society as Stalinist-type front group (a good start would be several scholarly studies of Federalist Judgements on Federalist defendant/Plaintiffs would be a good start and I have absolutely no doubt would illustrate the need immediately)

At times like this (or Germany 1933) it was imperative, more so than the game of politics, to speak out, to stand and be true to one's principles, than to court Nazis in the hopes they'll become Democrats.

Now, you might say I have illustrated your point nicely. I disagree. Every monstrous movement has had good people sucked into it unwittingly, especially when they are allowed to misrepresent themselves like the Nazis or the Busheviks without challenge from a Free Press.

All that is required of people like your doctor is all that has EVER been required of them. Be silent. Obey. Trust Der Fuhrer's nobility and his appointment by God. Do not listen to non-party Approved information.

And now I know, NOTHING could have stopped Hitler but what eventually did.

Having lived through this Kinder and Gentler incarnation I feel a certain sympathy for the 1930s Germans. We are them. They are us.

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free_nn4.html
(sound familiar?)

And human nature is such that if Geobbelsian Propaganda Infrastructure is allowed to take over a nation without being opposed, then the die is cast and the river will be followed all teh way to it's bitter end.

Given that, it is naively anachronistic for you to speak of electorasl startegies and connecting with the voters.

When CNN and FOX are nearly identical in their support of Der Fuhrer and nearly identical intheir sneering contempt for all things Democratic (not to mention all the other I have mentioned and some I haven't), just how exactly will the Democrats not show copntempt for the voters.

Even when they don't, FOCNN Reichspravda plays it like that and to ask for anything else is to ask Nazi Radio circa 1938 to speak nicely of the Jews.

[American Tragedy]

139. Well spoken, sir

Perhaps you should write some of the studies to which you refer.

[tom_paine]

146. Wrong field of endeavor

You wnat me to write a paper on fluorescent affinity column separation of revelant RNA-protein interactions, I could do that.

If I wrote those studies, no one would care nor listen because I have no creds in the field of law.

But someone or some institution that does SHOULD.

[ComerPerro]

135. The 2 Reasons for recent Republican success

1: 9/11. Fear, panic, paranoia, you are with us or against us, you are with us or you are with the terrorists, liberals hate America, Bush keeps you safe, you might die tomorrow if it weren't for the GOP, etc.

2: Lies. Lies. Bigger lies. Recently my uncle told me that the problem with the democrats is that they are not a party of the working man, like the Republicans are. I would have told him to get his head out of his ass, but its disrespectful to say that to someone when you are a guest in their house.

[jswordy]

143. Your #2 reason illustrates my points in total.

Recently my uncle told me that the problem with the democrats is that they are not a party of the working man, like the Republicans are.

Our superior attitude and "smarter than you" profile has indeed made the GOP the party of the common folks. We are the ones, with our egghead smugness and "I know better than you" swagger, who have given that ground to the Republicans.

I would have told him to get his head out of his ass, but its disrespectful to say that to someone when you are a guest in their house.

An illustration thereof.

[ComerPerro]

165. Actually,.my smugness and swagger

came from no longer giving a shit.

Republicans have been telling the same lies over and over for 12 years now, and anyone who can't see that deserves to be looked down on.

I mean, come on. How can you not laugh and act condescending when someone eagerly spouts rhetoric from Rush Limbaugh and Bill OReilley? How can you not be repulsed when someone arrogantly defends policies that only hurt them.

I don't give a shit anymore. People want to cut taxes for the wealthiest Americans while lowering their own standard of living, why should I care? People want to get arrogant about it, I say "fuck em". They deserve whatever happens to them.

[BootinUp]

137. Quite true. It sure was difficult to remain congenial

with my openly repug friends leading up to the election though, heh.

[jswordy]

144. Yes, I understand completely. So guess what I did?

I just didn't talk politics with them. Didn't bite if they laid out the hook, either. Conversation then moved on to other things. Had some great times during that period.

[itzamirakul]

191. But, using your original argument...

shouldn't you have shown them that you "valued them and their opinions?" Instead of refusing to discuss politics with them, you passed an opportunity to put into practice what you are preaching to us.

If you do not consider them "stupid," what would have been wrong with listening politely to their reasons for choosing Bush and his policies and then very, very gently explaining why you feel differently? If your idea of "respect for the other guy" is really how you feel, why didn't you do it when you had the chance?

You suggest that we show the Republican "MOM and POP" (or average folks) respect and that might convince some of them to join our side. But I notice that you did nothing to EXPLAIN our side when you had the chance. Why was that?

BTW, the "MOM and POP" contingent of the Republican Party are often the most vocal in their Democratic-bashing rhetoric.

[robbedvoter]

141. Pssst! We won , were robbed. Pass it on.

[jswordy]

145. Thanks! Wondered if the "Victim" attitude would be represented here. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

147. So we can't be aggressors and we can't be victims

What do you fucking think that Rush and Hannity and Ann Coulter are feeding their little Rovebots 24/7? It's hate, damn it -- and if the "mainstream" gets their feathers fucking ruffled because Rush and the rest of the hate echo chamber are repeating and repeating that libs are this and libs are fucking that then THEY ARE ATTACKING US. They steal an election. But we're not victims.

I tend to agree with the people who think that it is optimistic to try to reason with these people. I don't want to PLACATE them, I don't want to "make them feel comfortable."

You must understand that part of the reason that they respond to the idea of the "elitist left" is because of their own low self-esteem. Free Republic is nothing but a giant fucking therapy session for people who feel powerless, victimized. They don't even know who their fucking enemies are -- they're so stupid and confused. Whoopie Goldberg is the FUCKING ELITE but OIL MAN LONG FINGERS DICK "NEOCON" CHENEY and DIMSON BANDAR are fucking "normal guys?" GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK.

I read a wonderful column by a CONSERVATIVE columnist the other day, that was posted here, which basically amounted to: BUSH FOLLOWERS ARE BATSHIT DELUSIONAL and this was a fairly conservative conservative who had written for National Review and some of the other right-wing, neocon rags.

Did you not read the Suskind Article? (paraphrased): WE'RE HISTORY'S FUCKING ACTORS AND YOU -- ALL OF YOU -- WILL JUST BE ABLE TO STUDY WHAT WE DO."

You want to cave into this shit for "niceties?" Deal with people who think that the fucking RAPTURE is coming, while tens of thousands of INNOCENT Iraqi children are getting their FUCKING CRANIUMS BLOWN TO SHREDS.

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK THAT!!!!

And if Ma & Pa Fucking McDonald's SUV Sopranos can't get their head out of their asses long enough to realize this -- this is not MY PROBLEM.

I come from the country and my mom is a Democrat, and I've even seen her when I say: "I don't want to go to McDonald's" or "I'm Boycotting Wal-Mart." Since these FUCKING YOKELS let these places run their friends and neighbors and their own damn selves out of business, that's the only goddamn place they have to eat and shop and all of the sudden, then I'm the "sushi-eating, espresso-drinking, MFA from SEA-FUCKING-GAY-LIB-SEATTLE" who thinks that Gravyland is a fucking cesspool of saturated fucking fat, Teddy Bear-embroidered vests over turtlenecks and treeless cul-de-sacs.

Well fuck them. If they like their goddamn high on the fucking hog television fucking lifestyle, let them be proud of it and fucking defend it, without SHOWING THEIR LOW SELF-FUCKING-ESTEEM because people who took the time to get EDU-MA-FUCKING-CATED and got off the goddamn farm, or maybe actually SAW a foreign fucking country, instead of eating baked FUCKING POTATO at the "Sandal's" don't want to live the same pointless, fucking Chinese-goods slavery bread and fucking circus bullshit that they do.

And they can fucking deal with it.

And yeah, maybe we can lose, and we'll all move to fucking Europe, or secede or something.

There is no reason to pull any punches with these people. NONE WHATSOEVER. EVEN POWER. THAT'S THEIR DAMN JESUS -- DO WHAT'S RIGHT EVEN IF IT FUCKING PUTS YOUR PHYSICAL STATE IN JEOPARDY, NO? SOMETHING THEY HAVEN'T FUCKING LEARNED.

End. Rant.

***edit: AND IT'S CALLED "TOUGH FUCKING LOVE" REPUBLICAN STYLE.

I realize that these people are "decent" on some level, and I don't believe that INHERENTLY my existence is more important than theirs -- but like the conservative columnist said: some are ignorant, some are batshit fucking crazy. And that will not get a pass from me. "Style-over-substance" is the right-wing's favorite fucking logical fallacy. "Oh, it's not POLITE to say the American people are clueless dumbasses." I don't give a fuck if it's polite.

[Warren DeMontague]

178. Thanks Cats.

Nicely said.

[vetwife]

148. Somewhere along the line

We forgot that we are all Americans. Nobody's right if everybody's wrong...Isn't that how it really is? A broken clock is right twice a day. I am guilty of rhetoric and have come to believe that the original poster is on to something. We can agree to disagree. I have come to this conclusion, if I am in trouble, I am not gonna bother to ask the person helping me what their political persuasion is. Just turn off the TV and look inside and hope we can one day meet on common ground !

I walk in lockstep with no party, or person. I am an individual.

[NuttyFluffers]

160. to every season, turn, turn, turn,

i understand the 'agree to disagree' part, i have republican friends. but there are boundaries, to everything. when i meet people wanting to kickstart the rapture, or global domination, or 'the last crusades' or whatever -- which means condemning to misery and death *every single thing that is good and that i love in life* -- i have no responsibility to 'agree to disagree' or understand that person in the slightest. they deserve no etiquette, no humility, no get along to go along; they dserve nothing but my utter contempt and every shred of effort to stop them. they are not only crazy, but an absolute danger to everything in my universe. to do otherwise to such crazy people is criminal to everything and everyone that i love.

some people we can find common ground with, some people are beyond that. to every season, turn, turn, turn. you'll have to find your boundaries too, otherwise everything you love in your life will be taken away because in the end you stand for nothing. judgement, and the insults and dislike it engenders, is just part of the package of being a moral human being out to make the world a better place. judgement knows when to listen and show mercy, it also knows when not.

kindness will not fight those lost to this madness. and by now there's few who haven't chosen their side.

[vetwife]

167. Do you

know me at all? If you did, then you would know that I fought so hard in the last election that I spent time, money and most of my dealings with radio, TV, talking with congressmen and senators and making CD's and getting out the vote and doing everything in my power to stop the invasion and work for the candidate. I did everything I could to try and make a better tomorrow for those who believed in the democratic party.
I was interviewed in Texas, and a guest of C-Span's. I was not willing to meet anyone halfway and then suddenly there was a tragedy in my family and Politics seem to fall by the way side. The very people that I should have been spending time with, I was too busy working on America to enjoy their company. Yes, I agree we are in a divided country but it will not be any better until we stop all the rhetoric and stop hurling insults back and forth. Even wars come down to the negotiating table. I think the hate spewing is wrong whether it comes from the right or the left and believe me I have done my share. I know what side I am on. I am on America's side. I love God, country and my fellow man, whether he or she be republican, democrat, christian, jew or aethist.

[bobbyboucher]

149. Fuck the booger-eating hand-jobs.

I could care less who is stupid enough to vote against their own best interest. How or what some people on DU call them isn't going to make them vote one way or another. The little-guy morons who vote for Bush and the Repugs will get the picture soon enough. If not, what the fuck can I do about it. I aint gonna kiss any moron ass, that's for certain.

Fuck'em and the horse they're afraid to ride in on.

[JoseRizal]

157. I am with ClassWarriors and the rest of folks here who share

the same principles and outlook towards our fellow brothers and sisters. I really think our party is going to get more maligned in the general public if we continue on the path of self destruction.

Our enemies are not the American people who voted for Pres.Bush. Our eemies must be those who espouse radical right wing ideologies that are bad for our country. I think first and foremost our battle is a battle of ideas, ideas that is best suited to propel our country to a better and brighter America. Thanks

[farmbo]

159. Ever read Ann Coulter?

Whatever smugness and censoriousness you detest about this site...she has it in spades. And she is widely respected and quoted by the entire RW sound machine. Nothing I've encountered from the regulars on this site even compares with her brand of Hate Speech.

Perhaps you should lay off DU and keep your powder dry for our real enemies.

[codswallop]

161. Yeah, I agree.

Sometimes the smugness of the point-missing is hilarious.

Liberals need to get back to the garden.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[codswallop]

175. Are you some sort of post-count bigot? Isn't that against the rules?

You do yourself, and DU, a disservice with that sort of bullshit.

Do you think you are better than me? You sound rather small, regardless of your post-count glory.

[Warren DeMontague]

176. I'm suspicious of everyone full of dubious "helpful advice" like this...

Stick around, you'll see that we're swimming in it.

[Warren DeMontague]

169. YOU can do whatever you want, mac.

I'm not about to apologize for being right.

I happen to think anyone dumb enough to have voted for Bush this time around (remember those debate performances?) must have the intelligence level of a walnut. If I risk alienating 51% of the American People by mentioning the fact that I think a good cross-section on them are inbred, drooling, reactionary, bigoted, intolerant fundamentalist neo-luddites, well, shit, the truth hurts. They don't hesitate in calling people like myself secular humanist treasonous dirtbags.. Why we, on a board like DU, should suffer these incessant exhortations to "play nice" is beyond me. From where I sit you're just like the folks arguing that "we" need to abandon commitments to gay and reproductive rights to accomodate "values" voters and win elections... Um, No thanks.

[Warren DeMontague]

174. Congratulations.

You've created a thread where F******s with 8 posts can come and go, "yes, yes" and laugh as they give us advice about what we "should" be doing.

Excuse me if I follow my own damn counsel.

[Bridget Burke]

194. We're separating the sheep from the goats.

Bah, Bah, they bleat. As they rush off to get fleeced.

Or slaughtered.

[ElectroPrincess]

177. Right Wing Republicans are morally bankrupt ... no ifs, ands or buts

No half way sucking up to powerful corporate interests. The DINOs are going down and down hard. Frankly if it takes destroying the Democratic party and building from the ground up, so be it! It's time to stand up for the people of this country, NOT the major corporations.

[FromTheLeft]

180. That is a wonderful concept...

But in the time it takes for us to completely break down and rebuild the republicans will destroy everything, and I mean everything we hold dear. No more Social Security, no more environment regulations, we will pray in school, and we will go to jail in we are found outside of Church on Sunday morning.

[FromTheLeft]

179. This thread kept me up last night...

I was try to come up with a way of properly describing what it was that I saw right in from of me. Here is what I came up with.

The republicans have made it seem as though we, the liberal democrats, were not making fun of republicans. We were insulting all who even thought about voting for bush. A decision.

They have framed the debate in such a way that when they make fun of liberals, democrats, and any other name that they choose to use, the only people who will be insulted are people who strongly identify with that label. Joe American who voted for Kerry doesn't mind this because he knows that in the '80s he voted for Reagan and he just elected a republican govenor. He is not one of those people, it just happens to be that sometimes he agrees with them.

On the other hand when we insult everyone who made the choice to vote for bush there is no one who did vote for bush that will not be insulted. In fact many who even considered voting for bush and didn't will still be insulted.

Everyday both 'bases' make fun of each other. That is a constant on both sides, the mistake that we made is that we insulted all the fencesitters no matter who they ended up voting for.

Does anyone agree, or am I way of base?

[Silverhair]

185. You are correct.

The condsentation is killing us. You will never see names like "sheeple" nor America spelled, "Amerika" or "Amerikkka" coming from the RW. We insult the middle voters, and then wonder why we lose, and then get really angry at the middle voters in hopes that they will vote our way next time.

It isn't just on DU. That attitude seems to be widespread among the party's core.

[Warren DeMontague]

196. When's the last time you listened to RW hate radio?

I had to read your post 3 or 4 times to be sure you weren't joking. If you think there isn't condescencion (along with heaping helpings of spittle-throwing bile, hate, and outright incitements to violence) coming from the right, you're out of your mind.

What you've latched on to with "Amerikkka" is another meme from the Right-Wing Noise machine. See, All us "libruls" are flag-burning America haters. Here's an example from today's paper- Scott Stantis, editorial cartoonist, now has a daily strip called "Prickly City". It's inane, dumb, and badly drawn, but newspapers all over the country now carry it, invariably because they hunger to have a comic with a "right wing viewpoint" to balance out allegedly liberal voices like Garry Trudeau and (my favorite) Aaron Macgruder. Problem is, "Prickly City" is never funny, nor intelligent, and usually its "points" are dumb one-note ad hominem attacks on liberals, a tactic also favored by fellow Right-leaning cartoonist Mike Ramirez. So, today's "Prickly City" had the following story line, if you can call it that: "You can dress up a swine, groom him, but he's still Michael Moore". The last frame had a fat guy in a suit burning an American Flag. So.. How is this funny? How is it making anything that resembles an intelligent point? Most ominously, how is this different from Nazi Propaganda, where the essence of the "message" was to portray their enemies as dirty, sub-human animals?

Lastly, where the f*ck does Scott Stantis get off implying that Michael Moore hates America or burns flags? If you have ever watched any of MM's movies, whether you agree with him or not, its clear that he loves America, and, in particular, the little people of this country who have been ruthlessly f*cked by Bushco and the GOP. You could only infer that Michael Moore even opposes "America" if by "America" you mean the Bush Administration and its ill-conceived agenda. I thought we weren't at the point of identifying glorious leader and his party with the nation as a whole. I guess I was wrong.

[FromTheLeft]

201. Read my post in this thread.

I admitted full that both sides sling the mud, my problem is with our aim. They aim at those in the back which cause those in the middle, who don't want to get hit, to run towards them. We aim at their front, which means we hit those in the middle harder than we hit them.

[Warren DeMontague]

204. I speak only for myself when I say I think Bush Voters are Morons.

But I'm sure as hell not going to stop saying it.

When "We" try to play nice we are told by the noise machine that we come off as "weak" and "wishy-washy".

Again, thanks for what I am certain is well intentioned advice, but sorry, that dog won't hunt. I'd rather stand by a minority party with guts and gumption and will to fight. If a majority of the people are wrong (what- 41% of Americans still believe there are WMDs in Iraq, even after Bushco. called off the search?) then someone should call them, challenge them on it-- because the corporate owned mass media isn't going to interrupt non-stop coverage of important stories like the Peterson Trial to tell them anything... except maybe what kind of big-ticket SUV they need to buy to feel less fat.

As for Bush, his presidency is an unequivocal disaster, and anyone dumb- yes, dumb- enough to have voted for him should be ashamed of themselves...

I plan on sitting back and saying "I told you so"

[FromTheLeft]

211. I'm not saying play nice I'm saying play smart

Talk trash all you want about...

Radical RWs
The Religious Right
Neocons
Rethugs
etc.

And I agree that voting for bush was in many cases the dumbest thing that a lot of those people have ever done. But don't call them dumb people for making an unwise decision. Just because we weren't fooled by the 'shine objects' that the bush campaign (and I include the MSM in that) doesn't mean that they are dumb people for duped. Stand up and shout at names and groups that moderates would not identify themselves with. Demonize them for their policies and Ideals. But do not ostracize those who we will need to convince that we are right to get back into power and do what is best for everyone.

[JerseygirlCT]

195. Well you start with a deeply flawed premise:

"our party is falling out of favor with the common voters"

Don't think that's so at all. Perhaps we'll eventually get to the bottom of the fraud and have a better idea...

That said, I generally agree. You don't win someone over to your side by attacking them and putting them on the defensive. You have to leave them room to save a little face and make the move comfortably.

OTOH, this does NOT mean capitulating to GOP views, or going along with the GOP-controlled House and Senate or the GOP adminstration on anything. I want to see a loud and fierce opposition from our elected leaders. This can be done in a civil and principled way.

Average folks, talking to average folks? Yeah, civility is a nice thing. Knowing the facts are on our side doesn't hurt, either.

[FromTheLeft]

197. Please respond to my thread, I'm trying to do something foreward thinking

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1538088

[KissMeKate]

199. jswordy- what is the common voter?

59 million people voted Kerry- we arent common voters?

[Kazak]

200. Sounds good on paper...

But, when you consider that the (D)s have won** the last four straight Presidential elections, your argument flies out the window...

[FromTheLeft]

203. That is foolish...

Winning is what happens in reality. Just because we technically should have won the last two doesn't mean we won. The winner ends up in the white house. That is what really matters.

[Warren DeMontague]

206. No, what's "foolish" is trying to modulate a message in a situation

where the game is rigged, which you yourself just admitted.

If "reality" is that "who the GOP says wins, wins", then it doesn't make a lick of difference what we do, much less say, does it?

[FromTheLeft]

207. Youre changing what I said

I said that reality was who ended up as president, what they were 'playing for', not necessarily the 'winner' as you view it. Just because the GOP was able to win in reality the last two times doesn't mean that we can't change that for the future.

To the victory goes the spoils. Not: to he who should have been the victor but was robbed because they were playing unfairly goes the spoils.

[okieinpain]

202. bush was a complete failure his first four years. yet he was able

to lie to people to get reelected. fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. yes 51% of the voters in 04 are stupid.

[humhoney]

224. Maybe, but

You may be right, but, this is precisly why the democrats are losing elections. You are not going to woo voters by calling them names. Personally, I think on a basic level, President Bush is probably no better or no worse than the next guy as far as politics are concerned. But, if we are going to win big elections, we must convince people that we are right. I have been in this business a very long time, and this is the trend I am seeing. People in fly over country are sick and tired of being called stupid and we are seeing a backlash from it.

It is percieved by these people that we are un-american, and they dont like it. Remember, perception is whats important. It's shi__y but that is the way it is.

Anyway that is my two cents. :-)

[Pepperbelly]

208. GW, to us, is like Clinton to the righties ... we go batshit crazy ...

just hearing the name.

And, more on point, I have compained about that smugness in the left since the 1960s. It never changes. They never believe that it matters. The real wonderment is that we can occasionally nominate someone who can actually win.

[moggie12]

209. You said that very well

As if losing this past election wasn't bad enough, I thought it was horrible when Maureen Dowd wrote columns calling Bush voters "ignorant and intolerant", among other things. I would never argue that some are not exactly that, but many, many are not. It wasn't a good way to start off the process of wooing voters for '06 and '08.

[Q]

212. You're not going to 'woo' Bush voters...

...how silly is that? Those who voted for Bush have a hate for Democrats not based on reality. They hate because it's easier than thinking.

We didn't lose in 2000 and 2004 because we're 'smug' or because Dowd wrote an article. Using this logic...no one would have voted for Bush because of the dozens of right wing hate journalists and radio jocks spouting hatred against Democrats.

We're in the minority because we don't have a leadership that will fight for what is right. They run away from fights and back away from Bush bullies...who are more smug and arrogant than any Democrat could dream of being.

When will you and others learn that there is no compromising with fascists?

[moggie12]

213. Hey, Q, we meet again (and I think your're wrong again)

You're lumping all "Bush voters" into one big pot (of fascists, no less) and they're not. Here's the break-out, as far as I can tell:

* Fascists: 10%
* RW Fundie loonies: 10%
* Generic Fundies (not quite as loony): 20%
* Old GOP (non-insane conservatives): 20%
* Reagan lovers (many middle-class, former Dems): 20%
* People who vote based on campaign commercials and
quick glances at the TV news every once in a while: 20%

All we've got to do is "get to" more people in those last two categories and we can win elections. It shouldn't really be that hard: Run better commercials next time, get a candidate whose positions are more coherent and consistent (I have to cut Kerry a lot of slack -- Iraq was a difficult issue), get a more articulate candidate, etc., etc.

Registered Republicans comprise 37% of the electorate. Bush won because he attracted tons of Independents. We CAN appeal to these people very easily without "compromising" our souls.

Calling all Bush voters fascists is a sure way of losing elections.

[Q]

214. If you vote for or support fascism...then you're a fascist...

...and I'm getting sick and tired of all this BS talk about being nicer to fascists.

Don't you get it? WE DON'T LOSE ELECTIONS BECAUSE WE'RE MEAN OR SMUG...we lose elections because we don't fight against the arrogance and smugness of the other side.

You can keep spouting this nonsense of 'moderation' and 'getting along' until your fingers bleed...but it has nothing to do with losing or winning elections.

The problem remains: you have a fascist government in control of this country and if you don't wake up and realize it then all is lost. We've losing more than elections...we're losing our country.

You're still playing at politics as usual and the other side is planning our funeral.

[moggie12]

215. didn't you read what I wrote??

NOT ALL BUSH VOTERS ARE FASCISTS. I'm not advocated "moderation" and "getting along" with fascists. I'm saying that we need to fight the fascists now in control of the government by convincing Bush voters who are not nuts to vote for us.

What is your plan?? How do you propose reaching voters with your message? Maybe that will help me better understand what you're advocating (your labeling of all Bush voters as "fascists" does not sound like a promising start in changing people's minds about Bush).

[Granola]

216. The problem is that those democrats that

republicans would vote for (Lieberman) have a snowballs chance of getting the nomination, since the nomination is pretty much owned by our own fringe elements.

[moggie12]

218. Granola, you're mixing the raisins with the nuts

We don't have to run a Lieberman type to attract non-nutty Bush voters. In fact, running him or someone like him would be a huge mistake, IMO. We need to run a principled Democrat who will articulate what this party really stands for: Fighting for the average American and not blundering into counterproductive wars.

[Eloriel]

217. I might agree with you IF

DU were meant as a public forum where we were even trying to attract Repugs. It's not. It's specifically designed FOR Dems and other lefties where we can talk amongst ourselves. Sure, Repugs and others can come view it and even join -- but they're specifically NOT invited.

If I would have to "behave myself" when I'm here at DU for the purpose of possibly not offending someone on the other side of the aisle -- when the people they support and elect have been not just offensive to us but totalitarian and fascistic!!! -- then DU would have no appeal and in fact no value for me whatsoever.

[sherilocks]

223. Moggie asked a simple question

and neither you or Q answered it. What exactly would you do to get the apolitical and independent voters to vote for a Democrat?

The issue is not what we say or do on DU, but how to win over these voters.

[humhoney]

220. Some things said on DU

I totally agree with you. They are not stupid. We lost. The attitude that some on the left are displaying will not win us any elections in the future. If you keep telling people they are stupid, how in the hell are you going to win them over. I dont know if anybody has noticed, but we have been losing elections continuously since 1995.

[moggie12]

228. Well, we did manage to squeak Clinton in there in'96

But I agree with your basic point. People are understandably frustrated and angry, but taking out our rage on Bush voters won't help. Not all of them are beyond hope, by any means. Lumping them all into one group and calling them names is counterproductive.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[ClayZ]

230. Losing by election FRAUD!

Argh!

[Desertrose]

229. our biggest problem..."us" vs. "them" mentality (2 party system)...

and the giant hate machine that has been amped up for too many years now and that too many people have bought into.

My parents were Republicans and the entire area where I grew up was (is still) Repub...back in the 50's & 60's .They are good people...and I still believe most Americans are, despite their political registration. I have noted however that there are many who call themselves "Republicans" who truly are not- like out current misadministration. They are not like any republicans I ever related to....

These are the people who are feeding the giant out of control hate machine in this country and it is sad to see either side fall for the game...divide and conquer.....make 'em hate each other...distract 'em with stupid minor differences and then we can get "our agenda" passed right under their noses and they will be so filled with hate for each other they'll never notice.

Anyone else see the folly of falling for their games regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on??......or is it already too late??

The arguments and the attitudes are all only distractions...time to wake up & get smart folks.There is no room for feeling smug about anything anymore.