I believe Clark and Dean supporters tend to be from the same mold

[Quixote1818]

I was just on the thread about what was your most unpopular opinion on DU and I noticed someone say: "I don't like Dean or Clark".

It kind of made me chuckle and I realized that even though us Clark people tend to clash with Dean people it almost never has much to do with policy or even disagreeing about the other candidates views. It's usually about who would have been more electable and who's supporters are more nutty. It occurred to me that their is a revelry between Dean and Clark people because early on they were the two front runners and we felt like we had to go after the other guy to help our guy win. But in some ways I tend to feel more of a kinship with Dean folks than any other candidate's supporters because of this revelry and because in reality Clark and Dean are very much alike. I have said a lot of nasty things about Dean folks because I was always irritated by how much they LOVED Dean not realizing that I was guilty of the same thing only with with me it was my admiration of Clark. So this is a sincere Olive Branch to my fellow Dean friends. I guess we are all guilty of caring too much about our candidates. But hay, when was the last time two candidates were loved this much after a presidential election when neither of them even got the nomination? I think that says something about our two guys. They are rare, even as losers they can't seem to shake their supporters. They must have something that is not often seen in presidential candidates. Some kind of magic! We should be proud of our guys and smile because we are much more alike than different. Long live Dean and Clark and may they lead our party toward the dawn of a new day where we can be proud to call ourselves Americans again. Go Dean for DNC Chair!

[KissMeKate]

1. I like both of them

eom

[JohnOneillsMemory]

75. CLARK and DARPA. sittin' in a tree. ACXIOM and POINDEXTER...NO.

http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/acxiom%2Bwesley%2Bclark%2Bdarpa

Wesley Clark was a high-power lobbyist for one of Big Brother's biggest data-miners doing work with DARPA's Total Information Awareness project run by John Poindexter of IranContra fame.

You might as well hand the keys over to Rumsfeld.

[dogman]

79. If they used the available info, Oneill might have been more than a memory

But propaganda is more important to some.

[BootinUp]

81. Nail, meet Hammer. n/t

[KissMeKate]

91. hmm

thanks for that info- its important to know the good and bad about the candidates.

[eaprez]

2. Early on they were the two front runners?

HUH? Clark got in late and he was never a front runner - or did I sleep through something?

[Quixote1818]

3. When Clark first got in he was ahead of everyone then he settled

into second place slowly creeping up on Dean. They were always 1 and 2 until the end. After Kerry won Iowa that changed everything.

[moggie12]

5. Pssst.........take the olive branch he just offered.

i want us all to work together to beat the republicans...

[Rowdyboy]

4. Both Dean and Clark are plainspoken, intelligent, and quick on their feet

They are the best the party has to offer. I backed Clark for president, but I liked Dean from the beginning and think he'll make a damn fine DNC chair.

[Redneck Socialist]

6. Clark was my second choice during the primaries,

Dean was my first. :)

[pstans]

7. I supported Dean

but never got to know much about Clark since he skipped campaigning here in Iowa. I was hoping for a Dean/Clark ticket though. I thought Dean's passion and vision combined with Clark's military experience would have been hard to beat (but I forgot about the voting machines then).

[IronLionZion]

8. Clark and Dean are more alike than their supporters will admit

I support both but backed Dean in the primaries. Did you know that the good general was at the top of Dean's VP list? I bet Clark would have chosen Dean as VP too. They are like the dream team who complement each other nicely.

veteran and hippy
Arkansas and Vermont
Catholic and Protestant
establishment and grass roots (both have maniacal grass roots supporters)
both are outsiders
both have executive experience
neither have votes to nitpick
both are worshipped on DU
and so on...

[Larkspur]

44. As far as Clark being on top of Dean's VP list, that is all rumor and not

substance. Dean never picked a VP and he wasn't going to unless he won the nomination. Of course, Dean said that all VP candidates would be thoroughly vetted, and I don't think Clark would have passed that, being that he ran a fundraiser for Bush and Cheney in 2001.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

57. So much for the olive branch n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

59. Fact check.

Clark was paid to be a guest speaker at that fund raiser. Does that mean "her ran it" to you? A week later he was paid to be a guest speaker at a Democratic Party fund raiser. Does that mean "he ran that" also?

If you feel that you have a legitimate issue to raise, why then do you feel a need to play fast and loose with the literal truth?

This was all rehashed endlessly during the primary season, so there has been plenty of time to at least get all the facts right. Some who were unfamiliar with Clark put a lot of weight on that one appearance. Fine, it was their right of course to do so. Since then the question of just how supportive or non supportive of George Bush Wes Clark actually is has had a lot of new material available to bring to bear on that question. Clark acted as a key Democratic Party surrogate against Bush in Kerry's campaign. People are free to put very little weight on that fact if they choose also.

But no one is being asked to vote for Wes Clark for anything right now, and likely no one will be for years, so there will be much more time available for everyone to decide if Clark is a Republican or Republican lite before ever having to vote for or against him again. I think more people will be looking at that than the one event you seem so fixed on.

Notice that I am not using this post to push Clark or slam Dean either. I am not looking to reignite the primary wars here at DU. I only noted a few very easy to verify facts, about those fund raisers (both Republican and Democratic) and about his role in the 2004 election. I prefer not mixing facts and opinions. Both have importance but they should not be confused.

[BootinUp]

9. A laudable post Quixote

Good to be reminded of these points every now and then. :)

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DaveinMD]

50. this is funny

because I see a ton of posts from Dean supporters attacking EVERY other Democrat as unworthy.

[TLM]

53. unworthy of what?

Unworthy of being presdent.... unworthy of being our representatives?


I think that, for instance, the dems who voted for the war, the dems who voted to confirm captain torture, the dems who gave kindslezy rice her confirmation hand job... I think they ARE unworthy.

Unworthly of the D by their name and unworthy of my vote and unworthy of their office.

Do you disagree?

[DaveinMD]

55. I disagree

with tarring every other Democrat as unworthy of being leaders in my party. I disagree that a vote on a cabinet office outweighs years of good public service. And war is not the only issue in our party. Reproductive choice, health care, economic issues are just as important to me.

[lojasmo]

109. I challenge you to prove your assertion that ANY Dean supporter

-not "tons" -EVEN ONE dean supporter has stated that they feel that NO OTHER DEMOCRAT is fit to lead the party.

Please post a quotation and a link.

[lojasmo]

105. EVERY other democrat?

Laughable statement.

[DaveinMD]

106. hardly

I've seen many posts that if Dean doesn't get the DNC Chair position people are leaving the party. I've seen people say that Dean is the only Democrat worthy of leading the party. This kind of division must end.

[TLM]

51. Well said.....

I was one of the people who found posts on Clark blogs encouraging Clark supporters to come to DU and shout down Dean supporters.

I was also one who left for the other board and only recently started posting back here at all.

And the simple fact is that the problems so many had with Clark wasn't because of his stated policy positions. We all know that for the most part what he said was fine... save for the flag burning issue and a few other points. I said several times that Clark was saying all the right things. The problem that I, and many others had with him, was that what he was suddenly saying was a 180 from what he previously said and did when the man was a republican.

Only a few short weeks before he suddenly became a democrat, he was war profiteering for about a dozen different weapon and tech companies and before that he was speaking at a repuke fundraiser about how great W and his team were.

I had the same problem with Kerry... he was saying all the right stuff about Bush and his bad policy, but a few months/years before that, he was voting for most of that bad policy.

I said it then, if we pick republican lite, we'd lose. And I was right... just like so many other Dean supporters.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

61. Might as well poison

that whole flock of doves too...it's in the genes ya' know.

[Dookus]

52. Hyperaggressive, obnoxious, loud and just plain ugly....

hrmm..

[jdots]

87. I voted for Sharton

neener neener........voted for Jesse and voted for Shirley
The winner of the war isn't subject to war crime trials.....

[incapsulated]

56. Sad

This is just sad.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

58. And kill the dove

that brung it while your at it.

LOL

[BootinUp]

68. That was such a nice post

Come back real soon okay. :hi:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quixote1818]

76. Sorry but I didn't find DU until well after all that happened.

I think you owe me an apology. If you want to put ALL Clark people into one nice and tidy little box and make sweeping generalizations and down right nasty and mean statements thats your prerogative however the truth of the matter was that we were told repeatedly by those from the top to NEVER say anything negative about ANY other candidates. Now that is just a fact! So out of millions of Clark supporters you have 25 or 50 on DU who might have gone after your candidate against the words from Wesley Clark himself. Now you come on here and put me into the middle of your vast conspiracy theory and attack my character after I reached out and said a few nice things. Well, quite frankly Elorel just be glad that I am not going to make the same mistake you just did by attacking the character of ALL Dean people just because of the actions of one or two. I am sure their are many Dean supporters who are cringing at the venom and tone of your letter. You don't know me! You decided to judge me in the fraction of an instant based on really very little information but your own emotions toward a few Clark people.

And buy the way, where in my post does it say I am speaking for Dean people? I suggest you go beat on a pillow and get your frustrations out rather than take them out on someone who just tried to do something sincere and from his heart.

I will leave you with this:

"Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them."
--Albert Einstein

My question to you is what good did your post do? Do you think it brought people together? Do you think it helped Dean? Do you feel better about yourself? Did those words come from your heart or from someplace else? We are all humans here on DU! We are all capable of making mistakes and saying the wrong things but thats why we must forgive one another for our mistakes. Thats why those of us who have made mistakes in the past must offer peace when we realize we were wrong. My post was as sincere and heartfelt as it possibly could be. I felt bad about some of the things I had said in the past and I apologies for them. In most peoples book an apology is usually enough for them to grant forgiveness. Did some of the things you talk about occur? Sure they probably did just as Dean folks and other candidate supporters attacked Clark just like we see today on several other posts. However, if one of them came forward and offered an Olive Branch to me I would be the first person to take it because that's the type of person I am. I understand people are human and make mistakes no matter which candidate they were for. And furthermore, if you think changing a few minds here on DU influenced Dean's loss you might want to think that through again.

I have no doubt their is a beautiful person underneath all that venom you just communicated. I hope she/he will decide to show up so we can all have hope that the world can be better sometime down the road. In the meantime I plan on staying positive and looking for the good in people not the bad. Have a nice day.

[BootinUp]

82. hard to top that. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

90. A beautifully stated post Quixote.

I do hope that some people will be reached by your gesture of good will.

[Quixote1818]

95. Thank you both and thanks to all the Dean folks who have

been so gracious on this thread. Their are a lot of wonderful people on DU and many who down deep inside I am sure have the potential to be wonderful people. All we can do is try our best to understand our differences and assume those with so much anger just need a little kindness to brighten their day a little bit. I am blessed because I come from a family that gives me more love than I can take in so sometimes I feel a need to pass some of it on. When being attacked I try to remember that the attacker is hurting inside usually and it's best not to attack back but to try to understand that their is probably something else going on that needs a little understanding. I just wish I remembered this more because when I attack back I never feel good about myself. As Lincoln said "When I do good I feel good, when I do bad I feel bad. That is my religion."

[Adelante]

103. Quixote1818, I am very sorry you got dragged into this

Your kindhearted, positive OP doesn't deserve this kind of treatment.

Gen. Clark is not running for office and Howard Dean is, which many Clarkies support. I haven't seen negative posting on Howard from Clarkies since Wes dropped out of the primary, but particularly now, as Dean is running, Clarkies have bent over backwards to help. We've signed petitions, called and written our DNC representatives, and made our support known all over the web.

I didn't say this, another Clarkie did, but it is how it feels to us when we get hit by this squad of nasty, which I refuse to think represents Dean supporters.

We say something half way reasonable, and they go off on it. We say something completely reasonable, and they go off even more. We say something actually supportive, and they declare total war.

So every day even well-meant threads like yours are hijacked by people who wish to smear Clark's reputation. But that's DU. Don't let disruptors get you down. As you say, and I say, and every Clarkies I hear from says: They do not represent all Dean supporters.

And the truth is we all learned these skills during the bloody primary season. We know how to do this, too, but choose not to, unless it goes too far. We will always defend Gen. Clark, but this black type of ops we can avoid, for the time being.

Again, sorry you got caught in the crosshairs :hug:

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. Yup. Nicely stated. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

11. I certainly see it.....

It's actually pretty clear, hence the competitiveness on both sides...

However, I don't find each man to be similar to one another....as much as they offer similar traits, virtues and have varying degrees of courage and outspokeness that has captivated the admiration of their supporters.

Clark spoke against the Iraq war to power first...
Dean spoke against the Iraq war to the people first...

I find each man to be quite unique and each has a very different personal life story and list of accomplishments.

which combined, made them the really only effective voices against Bush and his Iraq war during a time when few voices were heard.

Clark saw what was happening INSIDE of the government and decided to tell what that was.....hence the telling of the phone calls to him to push Iraq as the 9/11 cause; critizising Bush on his handling of 9/11; the stance he took on the Iraq War on CNN when given an opening; encouraging Hersch and Dick Clarke to tell what they knew; standing up for Michael Moore against the media when others weren't; talking about PNAC and Neocons while on television; alerting us about the Iran & Syrian plans, etc.., etc....

Dean saw what was happening OUSIDE of the government and decided to tell what that was....hence the telling to the people that they had the power; calling out the Washington Insiders and forcing them to answer to their IWR vote; making establishment candidates vote against the 87 billion dollars; critizicing Bush on his reasons for War; being mad and not afraid to confront the current administration, etc.., etc...

Similar, yes.....but also very different.

[dvaravati]

12. Whats Clark running for?

I Don't understand why anyone gives a crap about him.
At least Dean is running for something, so there is a reason to talk about him. It is borderline psychotic with the cult worship of both these POLITICIANS(one who has actually been elected to something.)

[FrenchieCat]

14. Did anyone say that Clark was running for anything?

you say..."I Don't understand why anyone gives a crap about him." referring to Wes Clark. I agree, I don't believe that you have a clue.

jell-Ousy is not a virtue.....that's the clue that you should focus on.

This thread was most likely created with people like you in mind that would prefer to tear into one to elevate the other.

And to correct you, Wes Clark is not a politician, he is a leader.....and I'd like to keep him that way until 2008.

[robbedvoter]

15. And it's posts like that that demeans DU at the level of the poster.

Could we please stop trying to get along? I am just so sick and tired of being insulted....

[BootinUp]

16. Gee Thanks

Should I take my meds now so I don't get to psychotic on your ass. /sarcasm

Clark is still active in National Politics, doing frequent television and print interviews and keeping the pressure on Chimpy. He really cares about the country and the men and women serving in Iraq. How'd I do without my meds? :silly:

[Quixote1818]

18. As Emerson Said:

"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." You might want to think about that.

[Cheswick2.0]

28. President in 2008

apparently already

[TLM]

54. For a lot of Clark supporters a major pillar of Clark support...

is hate for Dean and Dean supporters. So the fact that Dean is running for something and Clark isn't, is exactly why so many "hey remember Clark" posts are showing up.

There is something about Dean's success that really bugs some of the Clark followers.

[Tom Rinaldo]

62. I called Clinton to ask her to back Dean for DNC

I live in New York. I wish Dean every success in his quest.

[incapsulated]

66. Do you honestly believe this?

Because if you do, you are either seriously misguided or so hateful toward Clark supporters that you are distorting the reality that is out there to justify that hatred.

I can't imagine even thinking that any group of supporters of any former candidate are basing that support on hatred of another. It's ridiculous on it's face. If Clarkies only came together because of their hatred of Dean, why didn't that support evaporate after the primaries? Have Clarkies been attacking Dean night and day for a solid year, since Clark dropped out? I see no evidence of any such thing. Which means that there must be some other reason we are still around and supporting Clark, no? Rack your brain.

We have been here all along and didn't give Dean a second thought, until some of us had the totally malicious and vile idea that Dean would be a great DNC Chair, and the audacity, the hubris, to support his decision to run for that seat. What horrid anti-Dean conspiracy will we hatch next?

[melnjones]

72. Please don't generalize...

A lot of us honestly like Dean as well and even support him in running for chair. I've stated it before- I think Dean would make a better chair than Clark. They're two different men. My vote for president would be Clark, but that has nothing to do with the current situation of Dean.

[Crunchy Frog]

89. So, the real truth comes out.

We are supporters of Clark because...we hate Dean. If any support for Clark is interpreted as arising out of Dean hatred, well, I guess your going to feel like there's alot of hatred around here directed against you.

I guess you have no choice but to lash out in hatred back at...everyone who likes someone besides Dean. Even if they like Dean to. Because even if they say they like him, they must really hate him since they like someone else as well.:crazy:

[roguevalley]

96. I don't feel that way. Dean is unique and my support of Clark

has nothing to do with his qualities. Dean apparently feels his forte is at the nuts and bolts of the party, building it up and getting people trained and elected. IN the end he will be more powerful and influentual because of that. That is his gold.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

63. Keeping score

on this thread is a hoot.

And a one, and a two.

[John_H]

13. All adolescent hero worship is counterproductive, even dangerous.

It's fine if you really really loooove Metallica, because there is not much at stake when you lose interest or get disillusioned.

When it comes to politics, hero worship is counterproductive because it is often fleeting and dangerous because it creates the potential for a severe backlash. Hero worshipers, because they tend to project their deepest desires and dearest principles upon their heroes, tend to act like jilted hichschool lovers when their hero does something inconsistent with their preconceptions.

Mark my words. Dean will become DNC chair. And when he acts like a DNC chair should, we will be treated to the most bitter, self-pitying, and defeatist posts we have ever seen on DU.

Working Clark's bid for the nomination, I witnessed the same phenomenon at the campaign office the day he pulled out. The people most starry eyed about his candidacy were the ones sating the ugliest things about him, his advisers, and the party that day.

It's human nature, especially when you're not yet old enough to cast a cynical gaze on just about everything.

[BootinUp]

17. Its way past my bedtime, but I just wanted to say

thanks Mr. for your input.

I guess all us crazy Clarkies should stop trying to stay organized, we must be really nuts if we think we can have a any positive effect on the future of the party huh, especially the over 40 youngsters like me.

One question, was the things these starry-eyed folks said as ugly as your post? I bet not.

[Quixote1818]

19. Here are a couple of Emerson quotes for you:

The less a man thinks or knows about his virtues, the better we like him.

There is no beautifier of complexion or form of behavior like the wish to scatter joy, and not pain, around us.

[incapsulated]

20. Oh, really?

That's interesting personal anecdote. Not my experience at all, but I don't use my personal experience to remake reality for others, either. The fact that both Clark and Dean still have strong support among the people that worked for their campaigns on DU, which is the whole point of this thread, undercuts your argument that we somehow turned on them when they pulled out (in Clark's case).

I don't "worship" anyone. And I'm no kid. But some people, like Clark and Dean, have qualities that make them personal heroes to people, with a small "h". That could be anyone, from an elected official to your mom. And some people, like Clark, to my mind, have done things with their lives that are inspiring and worthy of respect and yes, sometimes "heroic". Clark was a personal hero of mine years before he ran because of what he was able to accomplish in Kosovo. I didn't think I could have the kind of respect that I do for Clark for any politician or candidate. It came as a very pleasant surprise. I know that he is human, and should he ever win elected office, he will no doubt disappoint me at some point. I don't agree with everything he says even now. But I don't have any delusions of his godhood, I just really like, respect and admire the man and want to support his continued influence in the party and in politics.

If that makes me a wide-eyed dreamer, then so be it. I'll go take my meds now.

[unfrigginreal]

21. Right On!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Adelante]

22. I gotta get me

some of those meds. I must be crazy to read all this loony crap straight. :crazy:

[roguevalley]

97. Clark is a hero to me in a lot of ways, such as the way he lives

his life and the fact that his stewardship of NATO kept my boy alive when he was stationed in Kosovo. Hero worship? Damned straight. That he is smart, decent, honorable and experienced is icing on the cake. He kept my boy alive. Hear that? Sue me.

[melnjones]

24. Even adults can admire someone...

I admire Wes Clark. A whole lot. I also have the maturity to be able to do so while realizing he's human. There actually were some things during the primaries that I was not thrilled with- things he stated and ways in which he stated them. I'd even probably disagree with some other clarkies on a couple of these things. But that's what adults do, John. They can disagree and still get along without having to call each other names and demean them publicly. In fact, I believe this whole thread was geared toward that aim...setting the standard that Deanies and Clarkies can get along. I agree that the strong support Dean still has is a testimony to him as a person and politician. I like Dean. He was my pick before I discovered Clark. Thanks to Quixote for starting this thread.

[jswordy]

29. John_H has a real vendetta against Dean...

...and his supporters, since I have seen him post this same theme numerous times in different topics and threads on DU..

John, do you have anything else you wish to contribute? Because a one-trick pony gets pretty boring when seen over and over and over and over...

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[John_H]

49. LOL!

I like howard dean the moderate-pragmatic-progressive insider very much, as I have repeatedly stated. If you'd like to discuss his rhetoric fee record to prove me wrong, start a thread and i will be an enthusiastic participant. Bet that's not going to happen any time soon, is it?

And only some of his supporters are intolerant right-wing-at-heart highschoolers of all ages who put their life-void-filling worship of a single politician above creating a united front against the real enemy.

So here's the deal, JS. If peole want to stifle discussion, cite the work of known mediawhoresto savage Democrat after Democrat who may have ambitions that interfere with howard dean's, that's fine.

And when howard dean becomes dnc chairman, acts like a dnc chairman, i'll be right here to defend him, to throw the words of his worshipers back at them when, their fantasy bubble broken, they turn on him with the same zeal the defend him now.

[roguevalley]

98. Good grief.

>And only some of his supporters are intolerant right-wing-at-heart >highschoolers of all ages who put their life-void-filling worship of a >single politician above creating a united front against the real enemy.

I don't know here. You sound pretty adolescent yourself. Right wing? Life void filling? What a crock. I'm 52 and I'm no kid. I've sent family to war, made a career and retired from it and have few damned illusions about ANYTHING. I grew up watching body counts from Viet Nam on the nightly news during dinner time. My feelings for Dean do not hinge on Clark. You know, it IS possible for us to have respect for both men without getting all itchy. That's what adults do.

You should scrutinize your own intolerance and your own commentary. You're going to be there to defend Dean etc, etc? Sounds pretty high school hero-worshipy to me.

[Larkspur]

45. Please tell us how a DNC Chair should act?

Mark my words. Dean will become DNC chair. And when he acts like a DNC chair should, we will be treated to the most bitter, self-pitying, and defeatist posts we have ever seen on DU.

Howard Dean will not do a Terry McAwful. Dean has consistantly championed core Democratic beliefs and he will continue to do so as DNC Chair.

Dean will define how he will act as DNC Chair, not you or the DLC.

[Skwmom]

23. From the same mold?

While there are some similarities (such as both men are not Washington insiders), I wouldn't go as far as saying they are from the same mold. I seem to recall Dean attacking Clark with lies during the primary. If Clark would have done the same, I wouldn't support him. I look at Dean as a politician (though FAR BETTER than many), I look at Clark as a leader.

As far as a rivalry between Dean and Clark I think that all of the "Clark is the anti-Dean" hype was intended to ensure that Dean supporters did not turn to Clark once Dean dropped out of the race. By painting Clark as the anti-Dean it infuriated Dean and his supporters.


On edit. With that said, I think both groups of supporters are fed up with politics as usual. In addition, upon reflection of the 2004 Democratic primary, I think both Dean and Clark supporters were "played." Oh well, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

[melnjones]

25. One question...

Would it kill you to say something nice about Dean withOUT having to add the negativity?

I hear what you are saying. At the same time, many of us are tired of people constantly pinning one up against the other as though they are still competing for something. I see many Deanies and many Clarkies right now trying to find some common ground with which to move forward for the good of the party. I hope you will join in this endeavor.

[Skwmom]

99. "because in reality Clark and Dean are very much alike"

It's kind of hard to remain silent when a ridiculous statement like this is posted.

Trying to be nice I posted that Dean was far better than many politicians (and in all honesty that was a complete stretch).

[Larkspur]

108. No they are not alike. Dean is a verifiable Dem and Clark is a neophyte

Dean has a proven track record as a successful Democrat in elected civilian political office. Clark does not.

Dean is a Washington Outsider. Clark is not. Clark was and still is a consultant to lobbyists to the military industrial complex.

Clark is a Dem-come-lately who thought he could fool the Dems into nominating him for their Prez candidate. Dean had proven credentials as a Democrat. With innovativeness and a message the championed core Democratic principles and chastised the elected Dems who sold out on Dem principles, Dean helped to build a movement from the ground up that seeks to reform the Dem Party and our country. Dean, not Clark, is the one who gave the Dems backbone again.

[Tom Rinaldo]

112. This is why I say some are stuck in Ground Hog Month, Jan. 2004

Remarks like this about Clark: "who thought he could fool the Dems into nominating him for their Prez candidate". OK you want an experienced politician with sufficient Democratic credentials and you find fault with some things Clark has done, though the interpretation of his involvements that you chose is open to challenge. But I won't take space here in a positive thread to challenge them. Fine, that is your opinion, and just in case someone missed it the first 15 times you stated it lately on DU, you are stating it here now. And you say positive things about Howard Dean and I have no desire to say negative things about Howard Dean.

But your comment that I quote here is a sarcastic editorial statement. Yes free speech exists within the guidelines of this or any space, but you repeatedly throw something like that into every positive thread where Clark is mentioned. So I suppose everyone who voted for Clark in a primary "got fooled". I may be wrong about this but it comes across to me like you are itching for a fight. Sorry but I don't want to fight. I like Howard Dean and it is alright with me if you do not like Wesley Clark. You are entitled to your opinion, however many times you choose to state it.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

65. Bravo! n/t

[lojasmo]

26. I agree, absolutely. EOM.

[jswordy]

27. Thanks for the olive branch.

I agree with you about the supporters staying with these two men. That is a phenomena that has rarely if ever happened following a Democratic primary cycle.

To clarify my views on him, I don't LOVE Dean, I just identify with him on several levels. We both are fiscally conservative/socially progressive. We both are Harry Truman blunt speakers. We both believe in being honest and upfront with other people.

As far as Wes Clark goes, I don't doubt Clark's intellect or motivations, I just have problems in certain areas with him. My problems with him come from his being a DLC initiated and supported candidate, his tendency toward awkwardly giving voice to things that sound eerily like conspiracy theories (to give him the benefit of the doubt), his political ambiguity, and the problems with his military past and command decisions that I think would rain on any run by him at the presidency as the party's nominee.

Were Clark to become more polished, I think he would be a formidable primary candidate and could be a veep pick. But I am unsure that his past would serve us well as the presidential candidate. Were some of that stuff to come out (and it would), it could be Swift Boat Vets about 10 times expanded. The Wes Clark who ran in the last primaries would probably not respond in a favorable way to that kind of pressure. A more polished Clark, perhaps benefiting from professional coaching on style and speaking, and a better-run and managed campaign, could do better in the fray.

I really have trouble with Clark's open affiliation with the DLC, an organization that I think is ruining the national party by recycling old ideas and abandoning what we used to stand for. It's a stumbling block I can't get past at present.

Of course, all this is moot, in my view. I think the '08 Democratic nominee is almost certain to be someone who is a dark horse at present, maybe off the radar screen altogether.

But we need to find a candidate who can forcefully carry the banner, draw a contrast, stay on target and drive to the goal if we wish to have any hope at all of winning. I think we all agree on that.

[FrenchieCat]

34. Interesting what you say about "DLC"...

But how is it that you question Clark who was never in the DLC....and don't mention anything about Dean's DLC affiliations?

I don't quite understand this mode of rationale.

[Eloriel]

41. You know the truth about that

and just keep ignoring it. I've seen so much of that behavior from Clark supporters.

Clark was never in the DLC -- mainly because he was busy being a Republican. Also because he wasn't in elected office or politically active. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean he wasn't favored by the DLC and in fact, he most MOST OF ALL FAVORED BY BILL CLINTON, who as everyone knows CREATED the DLC.

Dean had been a member of the DLC and had moved well away from that. You want to keep talking about ancient history as if it had ANY relevence, all the while ignoring the vile, hateful things Al From and other DLC bigwigs said about Dean and Dean supporters. If Dean is DLC then George W. Bush is NAACP. Got it??

[FrenchieCat]

48. Eloriel....

How can you talk about truth in the same post as you say that Wes Clark was a Republican?...which is a lie.

I was responding to someone else's post who was saying that Clark was in the DLC......which he wasn't.

So now there are two lies told about Wes Clark....that he was in the DLC from the last poster....and that he was a Republican within your post.

Howard Dean was in the DLC....and so that is a fact....so no lies there. No one said that he had not moved away from it.....

I'm not the one that Rehashes old history....but I won't stand by while a poster MAKES UP history.

I'm glad that you note that Clark supporters' behavior compels them to call a lie, a lie....and the truth, the truth.

Thank you Eloriel for, at least.... being observant.

[robbedvoter]

60. And there the molds differ. Some strive to build communities....some...

:shrug:

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

67. Speaking of rehashing the past

LOL

[Crunchy Frog]

86. Alot of projection going on in this post, it looks like.

Also alot of pure invention. I have to admire the creativity.

Fact: Dean was a member of the DLC, Clark never was. I don't mean any judgement by that, just stating a fact.

You want to keep talking about ancient history as if it had ANY relevence, all the while ignoring the vile, hateful things Al From and other DLC bigwigs said about Dean and Dean supporters.

I've never seen such a perfect example of projection as this. Talking about non relevant ancient history, and indeed making up alot of it, is all that some people do with respect to Clark. As far as vile and hateful things said about a candidate and his supporters, I'm seeing alot of it on this thread and it's not directed at Dean.

I have to join with others in wondering what the point of such posts is. A Clark supporter tries to offer a hand of friendship and reconciliation with Dean supporters and gets it bitten off for his trouble. If this is meant to increase support for Dean, I have to wonder how effective a tactic people think it is. If one's interest is in making the Democratic party stronger and more effective, I don't see how fomenting this kind of divisiveness and vitriol will help with that endeavor.

Many Clark supporters have expressed support for Dean as DNC Chair. It seems that some interpret any support for Dean from anyone who didn't support him in the primaries as a hostile act, and an invitation to attack said supporter. I find that kind of behavior incomprehensible, but must say that it's part of why I can no longer support Dean for DNC Chair. I simply fear the potential for divisiveness and polarization too much.

[BootinUp]

69. Do you have a link, quote or anything regarding this "open affiliation"?

I think that is quite an exageration. But this whole thread has become an exageration so whats the use.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. Great Post

I hope people on both sides read it and take heart from it.

DTH

[txaslftist]

31. Dean/Clark in '08.

I could live with that nicely.

Certainly a ticket with more brains combined than the entire Republican senate.

[realFedUp]

32. I'm still not crazy about an ex General, come lately Dem as Prez.

so sue me.

[robbedvoter]

39. Thanks for proving it's a waste of time to reach consensus.

or even pretend to be civilized. Not even at a time when it would serve YOU guys.

[realFedUp]

111. lol

hey, I was robbed too!

[cidliz2004]

93. O.K. give me your name and address

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Dean was my first choice as a candidate until Clark entered the race.

I fell in LOVE with the man, Wes and his policy positions, his brain, his sincerity, his foreign policy experience, his ability to attack the chimp on foreign policy and his ability to attack FAUX NEWS. (man, that was sweet) At any rate, I like Dean. I hope he wins the DNC Chair. We NEED him. We need him to lead this party to where we need to be.....to the LEFT. Dean and Clark were the 2 most Liberal candidates running. It's a shame neither one made it to the WH. Clark would have been our BEST president ever. IMCPO

Go Dean!

[TLM]

64. I fell in LOVE with the man.... that's the problem

So much of the Clark supporters mentality seemed to me to be very much like a school girl crush on that uniform and those bright shinny medals. There were all these grand fantasies of how great it would be when he brought his charismatic intellect and policy experience to the debates etc etc. It was liking listening to a 12 year old girl go on about how some teeny bop heart throb boy band member would marry her and whisk her away to a life of wonder and perfection.

Hero worship as another poster pointed out.

Whereas with Dean it was more that his supporters were so glad to see someone stand up and fight back for a change... not someone who was kissing up to Bush and supporting his policy right up until they decided to run... like so many others were doing.

I liked what Clark was saying... I just don't trust the man one bit after looking at his record.

[BootinUp]

73. Its really a mistake to classify Clark supporters like this

Here's a clue, he ain't the fad of the week. I guess we'll be seeing lots more more of your vague disparaging remarks for some time. sigh.

[in_cog_ni_to]

78. Excuse me. I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond a schoolgirl crush

hero worship, teeny bop mentality. I'm 49 years old, almost 50 (daaaaaaamn):(, married and a mother of an 11 year old boy ....anyway, your analysis couldn't be more off base. The Dean/Clark wars are over, or didn't anyone tell you?

[incapsulated]

84. Ah, I see...

So, in your worldview:

Dean supporters are all noble fighters for what is good and right.

Clark supporters are a bunch of stupid, lovesick schoolgirls.

Dean = A record of perfection
Clark = Who knows, maybe he's Mengele.

Dean supporters = Fighters, politically correct, righteous
Clark supporters = Superficial Morons

Like I said before: It's just sad. It's sad that people are so blinded by their hatred and disrespect for their fellow Democrats, based on what? The primaries? We both lost, remember? What the hell is the fighting over, now? Who can set the record for most deleted posts?

[Crunchy Frog]

88. "Blinded by their hatred"

I think that line pretty much sums it up. It's really sad to see every thread where representatives of one side try to make peace devolve into an absolute orgy of hatred. And as you said, for what? Is this meant to increase the unity and effectiveness of the Democratic party? To win more support for Dean?

Clark is apparently no threat to anyone, at least if the opinions of the haters are to be believed. He doesn't do much other than speak out on a regular basis against the policies of Bush and the Republicans, yet he and his supporters must be attacked on a continuous basis. If he's no threat, why bother with him. If many of his supporters are also potential supporters of Dean, why alienate them?

:shrug: <utterly mystified>

[cidliz2004]

94. I really would love to see a Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark Ticket

Those two together would really kick some serious ass!

AND thier supporters joining together would be nothing short of an
unstoppable force of nature.

[txaslftist]

35. As a Deaniac, I'll take that olive branch and give you mine.

Peace, brother!

[Quixote1818]

77. Thanks! You made my day!

[returnable]

36. Well said!

And I have to say, as a Clark supporter, I think the rivalry is a bit overblown, anyway. When ya take a step back and analyze the flame wars here, it's basically the same handful of jokers on either side throwing the bombs. I think the "silent majority" admires and respects both men.

I know I do. :toast:

[no name no slogan]

37. Holy Sh!t!!! Somebody discovered a TIME MACHINE!

God, I love GD:P. Everybody thinks it's January 2004 around here!

Y'know what? Nobody (outside of their partisans) really gives a hoot about EITHER Clark or Dean. Right now, at this very second, they are both STILL failed candidates for the '04 nomination, as are Kucinich, Edwards, Braun, Sharpton, Liebermann, Gephardt and Graham.

Damn, this place makes the Lounge look like the height of civilization. How sad....

[mattclearing]

38. I like them both too.

If Clark sticks around for '08, and all indications are that he will, I think he will be a great consensus candidate.

Hillary and Bill will rue the day they pushed him into the presidential ring.

[TexasSissy]

42. I disagree. I was a Clark supporter @ beginning.

I never was a Dean supporter, and if Dean had become the nominee, I would not have voted. I was very much against Dean as a Prez candidate.

I don't think the supporters of those two men are anything alike.

Dean for DNC chair? I don't know, and it's not my vote. But just my opinion that anyone stupid enough to refer to the southern white male conservative voter, whose vote he is wooing, as a redneck driving a pickup truck with a Confederate Flag, doesn't have the smarts to do anything politically nationally.

[NYCGirl]

46. You do realize that the word

"redneck" was never used, don't you?

[melnjones]

71. I'm sure we can find such a

not-so-gleaming moment from just about every politician, not just Dean.

[TexasSissy]

107. No, I don't think I've ever heard one so dumb. Could be I've

forgotten, but even if I have, that one would still be at the top of my list (I'm from the deep south).

[Larkspur]

43. I will like Clark as long as he stays on the political sidelines and not

run for Prez or as a "Stop-X" candidate.

To get my support for Prez if he chooses to run again, Clark will have to run as a Democrat for a civilian political office lower than Prez/VP, win that office, perform the duties of that office well, and win re-election at least once before running for Prez/VP.

Those were my conditions when Clark entered the 2004 Dem Primary race and they are still my conditions today.

[dogman]

80. Well since you run the party, he'll have to.

When he's ninety he might be able to run with your permission.

[cidliz2004]

92. I wouldn't bet on it

This poster is really stuck in the MUD!

[Miami Liberal]

47. I like both of them

but am a Deaniac at heart. :)

[BootinUp]

74. nice of you to jump in

I think we need a little more party unity around here. :hi:

[zulchzulu]

83. Can we ever get off this tired, old 2004 Primary tit-for-tat bullshit?

Turn the page. Please!

Frankly, I doubt either Dean or Clark are going to run in 2008.

[BootinUp]

85. Well

It doesn't matter if we lay low, offer olive branches, attempt to join in common efforts you name it, the Clark bashing at this site never ends. Did I even need to say this, is the question or is it obvious to others as well?

[Bread and Circus]

100. 1 they aren't lawyers 2 they aren't really "slick politicians"

3 they are really loveably politically clumsy
4 they, unlike Edwards and Kerry, trully were grassroots candidates
5 they are not beltway insiders
6 they seemed to offer a true "fresh start"
7 both actually created some politically excitement. Kerry was like an anesthetic.

so yeah, I think they have a similar appeal in many ways. Frankly I am pissed off at the Democratic party, both it's nefarious corrupt leaders and its idiot primary voters for not putting one of these two guys on the ticket.

[sendero]

101. I agree....

... I think Dean and Clark people just want some new blood in the party. I like them both, but in my dream world Dean would get DNC chair now and Clark would win in 2008.

They both bring something to the table that is desperately needed, a break in the status quo.

[Connie_Corleone]

102. I have a correction to make.

I think you were referring to my post that said, "I could care less about Dean and Clark."

I didn't say I didn't like Clark. I was a Clark supporter before and during the primaries. BUT, all of the Clark bashing and "Clark this and that" threads, and the "Dean this and Dean that" threads have gotten on my nerves, so I could care less about either one of them now.

I'm still waiting patiently for the "hide thread" feature to come back.

;)

[Adelante]

104. Oh, me, too

"I'm still waiting patiently for the "hide thread" feature to come back."

Waiting not so patiently. :)

[Depth03]

110. Dean Remix

This is a new version of a popular Howard Dean Remix from the primaries.

www.depthaudio.com/Dean.htm