Why (who says) Muslims can't live in a Democracy?

[underpants]

This is not about the "election" today really but I have been wanting to ask this for a while.

Since W has said it more than once and their team of pundits bring it up repeatedly I necessarily assume it isn't true. I understand that W (Rove)is trying to portray himself as a visionary with the "planting the flag of freedom" crap but I ask:

Who is it that supposedly said that Muslims can't have a Democratic system of governance?
Why would their religion preclude them from any certain forms of government?
Is there really something in Islamic teachings that says this? or is it just the practice?*
Is this just the Right's framing of the discussion?

*-I find it interesting that the press is now reporting that the Iraqis DID have open elections in the 1950's a fact that has been widely unmentioned until now

[commander bunnypants]

1. amen

brother. it can happen

I am goona go buy some prime rib.

CB

[underpants]

3. For the love of GOD-I AM NOT ASKING ABOUT TODAY

did you actually read the thread or just the subject line?


I am curious as to whether or not this is a commonly held belief and if so why.

[commander bunnypants]

4. no both

Like I said , it has happened. I dont have all my facts straigt being a sunday. But Islam has a very rich histoery of democratic thought. Going back many, many, many years.. I will research it for you. They aint all a bunch of theocratic, mind followers. American democracy is not the Gold Standard

CB

[commander bunnypants]

5. mind control

muslims are all theocrats and cant think for themselves.. bull shit. I hope it is not a commonly held belief.
CB

[salin]

8. it isn't

I recall the first time the rhetoric appeared... in a sunday George Will item (I refer to it with some description, down thread). At the time it was a really odd and confusing (and contorting) column and several of us at DU discussed it trying to make sense of what he was saying. Then voila...not much later... bush starts using this little line/rhetoric. The argument was so weak that it was quickly dropped from his one-liners. Until the press conference earlier this week. Pure strawman.

[Chicago Democrat]

2. I am happy its going well... Maybe we can go home now?

I am happy its going well. Suprisingly well. Let them write the constitution now. By August? That's hard but not impossible. Maybe troops can come home by December.

I still say the war was wrong to do the way they did. I sure hope this doesnt embolden them to "do" Iran or Syria.

[salin]

6. George Will created this Strawman argument last spring.

It is supposed to be a two-fer:
1. Deflect the perception that bushco is only going after Muslims and that his actions could be read as a crusade of sorts (as in... see WE are the good guys... WE believe in you and others (but no one knows who) don't think so. Ironically he sounds rather patronizing whenever he says this - which is the opposite of the intent of the words.

2. Attempt to cast those critical of his policies as being racist... the logic is supposed to go as follows... all who are critical of my policies are simply against democracy in Iraq and the only reason they are against democracy is that they hold racist beliefs about the inability to self govern. It is as patently silly of a strawman as David Brooks attempt to suggest all who are critical of the neocons are antisemetic.

Funny thing is that the argument was so weak that he dropped it from his rhetoric during the campaign. So what is curious is why it reappeared (during the press conference the other day, and presumably now repeating it again).

[salin]

7. and as a strawman

it doesn't have to link back to anyone who actually believes it. I have never read anyone claiming this - except Will in a wierd column in which he raised the argument (claimed the argument was based on culture that wouldn't support self-governance) and then he knocked the argument down. Classic strawman propoganda.

[underpants]

10. Okay thanks

I must have missed that George Will article.

My BS detector went off when W started saying this and when I heard it on RW radio I knew it was a steaming load but I didn't know from where it came.

[salin]

14. Only remember it - because it came out on one of the very

rare Sundays when I read him... and the column was so convoluted that I couldn't make sense of it... so I brought it here to DU for discussion as we tried to figure out what his agenda was with the column. When bush suddenly (and very soon after the column) started using the rhetoric it was crystal clear what the point of the Will article was. No where had we (those reading it) read such sentiments prior to the column (so it was a wtf ??) nor have I read anything along those lines since then. Notice that bush NEVER says who... he just says "There are those who say/suggest/etc...."

[underpants]

17. I swear there are two interns backstage at Fox News

(maybe Newsmax) who are given things to say and then the "some people have said...." thing can be technically true.

Here, read this. You too.

[salin]

18. not even that

karl says it andy... there now it's true that 'some people have said...'

[underpants]

12. Gee I wonder how much money George charged us for that

:grr:

[salin]

15. rotfl - hadn't thought of that

laughing... but it isn't funny, is it. Dang I wish I were a better investigator and knew how to refind the item... would pass it on to one of the big blogs...

[blondeatlast]

21. More likely the Heritage Foundation or American Enterprise Institute

created it. Georgie just did his (payola) job and surprise!, the media began discussing it at length and with extremely detectable spin..

[Lefta Dissenter]

9. I just asked my son,

who has taken several classes in comparative religion and is dating a Muslim girl (young lady), and he said that Islam is like Judaism, in that your religious principles should be intertwined in all you do. Does that mean that religion should also be an integral part of the government? WELL, it's all in the interpretation, just like we're facing in our government. He knew of nothing, however, in the teachings of Islam that prohibit representational government. I don't know if that answers your question... :shrug:

[underpants]

11. Yes it does

along with salin's explanations above.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[commander bunnypants]

16. absolved 12 years ago

cb

[RafterMan]

19. If you're asking a theological question

the debate is does Democracy elevate man's will above God's will or does it simply recognize that Muhammed was God's final prophet and man must govern on earth as best as he can on his own. This is a real question.

If you're asking about who Bush is responding to, it's the cultural relativist notion that different systems suit different peoples.

[salin]

20. Per your last statement...

have you heard anyone forwarding that notion? Beyond George Will, and then W and his echo chamber, I am not aware of that notion being forwarded.