Edwards vs. Kerry

[Renew Deal]

Let's say it's March 2nd and it is down to these two. Who do you vote for?

[boxster]

1. Damn, that's a tough one at this point.

I think I have to (barely) lean Kerry for the fact that he trumps Bush's military facade by default.

I still believe that the media and the Bush Administration will do everything in their power to make this election about national security. In that context, Kerry is preferable to Edwards.

[Renew Deal]

3. I knew this would be tough.

I don't think anyone has asked.

[AP]

18. Cuts both ways. If Kerry or Clark get nominated...

...Bush can wind down in Iraq, and make the campaign all about feeling good and baseball and hanging out at the ranch in blue jeans.

Neither of these candidates really make people think of sunshine, and Bush has the ability to be very folksy (and Kerry is going to have a harder time than Clark if it comes down to class, and Clark is going to have a harder time if Iraq is totally off the table).

Remember, Nixon merely needed to HINT that he was winding down in Vietnam and that took Vietnam off the table.

[boxster]

31. I really don't think there is any way Bush can wind down Iraq by November.

We're replacing around 110,000 troops as I understand it, and people I know who are being deployed there have been told to expect to be there 12-24 months.

I see your point with Nixon, but Nixon didn't have 24/7 news coverage to prove otherwise. I don't expect Bush to be off the hook on Iraq until huge numbers of troops are coming home and staying home. I can't see him doing that in time for the election.

Plus, keep in mind that the administration is still beating the drums of war. He can't really pull out now and continue the PNAC plan.

Don't get me wrong - I love Edwards. He's my #3 (barely behind Kerry, for the reasons I stated), and I love the fact that he did so well in Iowa.

[AP]

44. They're pushing hard for (rigged) elections now.

I think this is the plan.

And, like I said, Nixon only had to suggest he was winding down in Vietnam to take the issue off the table.

Furthermore, if you talk to Republicans, many don't like the war. I don't think Bush is going to not to do anything to get these votes.

I think this is a really good reason to stop and think about Kerry and Clark.

Also, imperialism today isn't about military occupation. Look at S.America. You just need to control the governments.

You can definitely pull out of Iraq in August. Win in Nov. and invade Syria and Iran in Jan and April.

[Maddy McCall]

2. Personally, I adore both of them. I really respect Kerry.

In the south, though, Edwards will fare better.

Alas--how should I vote?

[dolstein]

4. I'd support the candidate voters can best relate to -- Edwards

Sorry, but Kerry has many of the same flaws Gore had. He's wooden. He talks like a four-term senator, not like a human being. He's aristocratic. He's more resume than message.

Edwards, on the other hand, is a fresh face. He's a dynamic speaker. He can relate to ordinary people, because he grew up in a working class family. And he's got a coherent message. Plus, he's from the South, which automatically makes him more competitive there than any other Democrat, with the possible exception of General Clark.

[Demoiselle]

20. Inclined to agree, Dolstein

I have great respect for Kerry, but I really really worry about his speaking style. Even in one-on-one interviews he orates...speechifies on and on in a sing song way that sounds patronizing to me. With his patrician background, it won't take long for the bastard repubs to characterize him as an "aloof out of touch Liberal blah blah blah" (Regardless of the fact that Clueless the Chimp, his fellow Yalie, is the one who's REALLY out of touch. Actually, more out to lunch, terminally.) For the record, Al Gore's alleged shortcomings in this department never bothered me. I understand all the ramifications of this, but if I had my way between these two, I think I'd pick Edwards. Even more than Clinton (whom I still love)Edwards is a genius at talking to people. My dream ticket is Edwards/Clark, Clark/Edwards.

[AP]

26. Edwards-Clark reminds me of my HS Principal and Vice-Principal

The Principal has the folksy and friendly demeanor, but you know s/he's basically mostly about getting the job done. The Vice-Principal is the one who used to be in the marines and is the disciplanarian on the outside, but you know s/he's got a heart underneath the stern exterior.

[tryanhas]

34. Clark doesn't even have a southern accent

He doesn't have half of the southern appeal that Edwards does.

[economic justice]

40. Very well said.....<eom>

[KittyWampus]

57. Bingo. Edwards Would Have The Best Shot

but would end up being chewed up and spit out whether or not he managed to get elected.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

5. I'd have a very hard time voting for Kerry

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=154665

Edwards has been my second or third for a while.

[DaisyUCSB]

6. The Edwards's would make a better first family I believe

they're very close on the issues.

I think Edwards story is as good as Kerry's. He'd make up for Kerry's possibly superior upper middle class, big metro, appeal with Edwards superior nascar vote/rural/southern appeal

[BootinUp]

7. At this point

I do not know enough about Edwards to give him my vote. So I said Kerry. I will continue to check him out though, and so far I don't have any problem with Edwards.

[evil_orange_cat]

8. I like Edwards over Kerry...

1. Kerry is still defending going to war, and even though Edwards also voted for the war, he isn't as defensive about that vote.

2. Edwards' Southern roots give him a better chance of getting the swing states.

3. Kerry comes from an elitist past, Edwards from a humble one. Plus, I don't trust the whole Skull and Bones stuff.

4. Props to Kerry for being a veteran...

5. Kerry wants to keep some of Bushy's giveaways to corporations. They should be scrapped and a new tax plan formulated.

6. Edwards' positive message resonates more with me.

[Monte Carlo]

9. Kerry's record is more 'liberal' than Edwards'.

A longer history to be sure, but Edwards' politics are a little too milquetoast for my tastes.

[AP]

19. issue by issue, Kerry has the resume. Overall persona, can't beat Edwards

if your measure of liberalism is whether the candidate is a symbol for the downward and outward redistribution of political, economic and cultural power.

In fact, Kerry might be walking into a trap of Republicans trying to define liberalism as an issue-by-issue thing, rather than about power redistribution. Identity politics, unfortunately, are divisive. But you can't argue with a big picture progressivisim, like Edwards's.

[Renew Deal]

10. kick

:kick:

[Renew Deal]

12. kick

:kick:

[Rowdyboy]

11. Edwards

And thank you for making me realize that. I guess I have a new number 2 man.

[adamrsilva]

13. I accidentally voted for Edwards

so +1 for Kerry, -1 for Edwards.

[Renew Deal]

14. kick

:kick:

[Kathleen04]

15. Edwards n/t

[Padraig18]

16. Wow!

This is a 'barn burner'! :)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. What a Horse Race! nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. You left out "Vote Green"

Which is what I will do if either of these representatives of the Pablum Wing of the Democratic Party get nominated.

[AP]

22. Oops. You're new here, huh?

Were you here for the great Green v Dem battles of 2002?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Is that question supposed to mean something?

[AP]

24. To people who remember how little respect Greens got here on DU

in 2002, it probably means something.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Why am I not surprised. The "liberals not welcome" mat is still out.

Just count the number of Edwards/Kerry/Lieberman apologists posts around.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

28. I'm a liberal who feels quite welcome by Kerry. eom

[AP]

30. I'm very liberal and Kerry's not even my first choice and it'd be a JOY to

vote for him.

In fact if I had to rank my enthusiasm for voting for various Dem candidates over the years, it'd look like this:

Kerry
Clinton
Dukakis
Gore
Mondale

[AP]

29. I stuck up for Nader and the Greens. Hey, you hear that Kucinich...

...likes Edwards? Nader and Chomsky like Kucinich. Nader even applauded Edwards's career as a lawyer once.

All I'm saying above is that if you're trying to suggest people should go green rather than vote for Edwards or Kerry, there's a whole set of arguments you're going to have to make before most DU'ers are willing to go there with you (and you'd still be left having to argue that Edwards and Kerry wouldn't be popular with real Greens and people like me who look to the Greens for guidance on many issues).

[Renew Deal]

50. You can't vote Green in the primary.

Just thought yuo should know.

[economic justice]

27. New England VS Carolina......Gotta love it! <eom>

[AP]

32. By the way, THANK YOU for the additional $150 for Edwards today!

I don't which threads are encouraging people to donate. However, clearly DU'ers are responding to Edwards's message as it is being argued here at DU.

I want people to know that these fundraising pages at the Edwards blog are anonymous. The Edwards people don't know who I am. These are seen as donations from DU and not from me, and DU is doing a great job of raising money for Edwards!

Yeah!

[NoPasaran]

33. I'd go with Kerry

He was in my top three when I was undecided.
He'd bring us more experience in the Senate than Edwards, plus that whole war hero deal.
Nothing against Edwards, Kerry just looks more Presidential to me.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

35. BOOO to "stay home"

[Bush loves Jiang]

39. 8% for either of them is depressing...

That must mean 10 - 15% would vote stay home if one of the candidates was removed from the poll.

[anti-bush]

36. Voted Edwards, he's been my number 1 since the start n/t

[economic justice]

37. AP......question

First of all, I am impressed how you are using the "advocacy" program that Edwards has going with his site. Good stuff!

I have been a Clark guy for many months but am having second thoughts due to some of the things that have come out recently concerning his London editorial and appearance before the congressional committee. I am looking at John Edwards and am more impressed each time I look closer. My question to you personally is this --- After looking over the candidates, what two things more than anything persuaded you to join the Edwards campaign? And, did you support anyone else before? I feel kinda guilty wavering on Wes, but these latest revelations were very troubling for me and his responses maybe even more so. Bush has GOT TO GO and I am thinking Edwards just may be the ticket home. Thanks for your time in responding.

[AP]

41. Here's my history at DU

I hope this establishes my sincerity:

I hate Bush with a passion. 2000 was very upsetting. I knew from the start that the Democrats were not going to have an easy time winning in 2004 and that it was important to pick the perfect candidate. I knew Gore was a mess because (1) in my eyes, he has little conviction -- I can't tell what his motivating principles are, and (2) on the issue of class, he's terrible.

If you ask me what is the biggest issue in America, I'd say it's so obvious that Bush is creating an America with a permanent underclass and where all the political, economic and cultural power is distributed up an increasingly steep and narrow pyramid which few people at the bottom will ever have a chance to climb. EVERY other issue falls under that umbrella, including war and terror. Those are just tools the Republicans use to get people elected who are down with the power redistribution program.

Because this is what I care about, there are two issues which were more imporant to me than anything. I wouldn't be surpirsed if my first two posts at DU were about these two issues: taxes and race. To me the tax code is the NUMBER ONE TOOL BAR NONE which the Republicans use to transfer power. It's a great tool, because nobody understands it. How many times did I hear Juan Williams on TOTN in 2000 and 2001 outright lie about how the tax code works? In 2000, I saw a survey which suggested Americans did believe that a progressive tax code was the way to go. Yet Bush STILL won -- and it was clear to me, but to few other Americans, that he was going to immediately use the tax code to change America into that tall, steep pyramid. Guess what? He did. That second issue: race. To me the black man and woman are the canaries in the economic coal mine. If America is not working for black America, then the entire middle class is next. Race is an issue I care deeply about. Deeply. (Only more recently, I'm adding a third major concern to my nexus, and that's well paying jobs with a future -- along with taxes, destroying job opportunities is the other way Bush is making sure the people at the top stay at the top).

So, read my early posts at DU. These issues came first for me. More important than the candidate in 2004 were the issues. I always expected I'd have to compromise. And I always knew (and, to a degree still know) that my candidate is going to break my heart, no matter what - win or lose. Nobody is going to be perfect, and politics in the US has a way of destroying things that are good. I'm a realist. I'm a cynic. But I have my issues which mean more than I can say. And I want to win. I want to win because it really really matters.

So, in this climate, I was looking for my candidate. I've heard a few things about a few people. Sometime in, perhaps, Feb 2002 I was watching CSPAN, and there on my TV is John Edwards. I'd heard of him, perhaps at the old MWO discussion boards. One person said he was handsome. Another said he had a big distracting mole on his lip. Another said Gore looked at him. And another said Clinton likes him and he beat Faircloth. So I didn't turn the channel.

What did I see? I see a guy talking to a group of middle class Americans about TAXES. About progressive taxation. And what do I hear? I hear him making an argument, simply that people are UNDERSTANDING. Heads are nodding. What's this? This is a guy explaining one of the most complicate mathematical, poltical, economic, philosophical and important issues of our day, which I've never seen any politician ever communicate well in my life. And people are getting it.

I could go on and list all the things I discovered about him subsequently -- about race, about jobs, about the redistribution of power, about his wife, about his children, his parents, about the things I read in Four Trials, about how he has comported himself as a senator, and as a candidate -- but I've done that many times here. It suffices to say that every new thing I hear about him even more impressive than the previous thing.

So that was my introduction to Edwards.

As for my experience chosing a candidate as it relates to how others go through the same process, I think if you read through what I've written, you can see that there are things in there which make it obvious why Edwards is at the top of my list. I REALLY like Clark and I REALLY like Kerry, and I think I could vote for them and support them with MORE enthusiasm than I had voting for Clinton.

But, the route I took to Edwards is way too much a part of me to not give all my energies to arguing his case. If people haven't taken this route, I think it would make sense not to put up the Edwards avatar just yet. Stick with Clark, or Kerry or whomever you like. Keep their avatars up. The important thing right now isn't falling behind a candidate. The imporant thing right now is the discussion. And I think there can be a great, honest discussion about these three candidates. I'll keep making the argument for Edwards, and I really hope that people stick with the candidates they support after taking their unique routes to where they're at, whether it's Edwards or anyone else. Maybe their routes will change (hopefully to Edwards!) Maybe my route will change (hopefully not!). But the journey's the important thing, right?

In any event, one thing I'm very confident about today is that the best candidate is going to come out of this discussion we're all having and will have a great chance of beating Bush.

[economic justice]

45. Wow. Thanks!

That could be re-worked for a DU frontpager. That was very, very good.

I have to say that what you wrote about the issues is right on target. There is way too much of the "horse race" talk and simply not enough on the issues. Especially for those people just tuning in to the campaign to learn what each candidate is all about. So, I agree that issues matter beyond all campaign shtick.

You wrote so much and did it with such eloquence that I have printed your post and will be putting it on the bulletin board at work. I work in an AFL-CIO job training/hiring facility that works with mostly young, black males. In my experience (School, Army, media, union), I think you are speaking clearly to our most serious challenges: those on the economic front and the ever-increasing "wealth and power gap."

Thanks again for a great reply - it will go far and wide. It was that good!

[AP]

46. You're really going to post that at work?

That's great. I'm really happy to hear that.

Please let me know if it gets people thinking and talking.

[TrueAmerican]

38. Link to poll between Clark, Kerry, Edwards

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=156830

[AP]

42. Clark has a bigger presence at DU than Dean had

/has.

[genius]

43. I'd vote for Dennis. Dennis is in there till the end. I'd vote for eithe

in the GE

[ArtieBoy]

49. Like everyone, I'm superficial.

Most of America isn't like we on this board. They're not going to study someone's background and voting record so closely. They don't have time to. And when you put Bush out there, looking gray and haggard, grinning just to make it through a cue card without stumbling, against someone with a healthy tan and great smile, who's smoother than butter in front of an audience, with just a hint of a twang to make him seem homey -- come on! It's Kennedy/Nixon all over again! There's nothing Rove can do to beat a trim waistline and bouncy head of hair! Not to mention those cute little kids! It's like a picture right out of "O" magazine! Imagine the female vote!

Kerry...respect his record, but he's an upper-class Yale guy married to a billionaire ketchup heiress. Hardly an "up from the people" story. And frankly, he comes across like Herman Munster. Please don't reprimand me, he just does. America won't vote to watch that on TV for four years unless Al Lewis is also there in his cape. (Please don't ban me, I'm just trying to ad levity to the truth.)

So I voted for Edwards.

[sandnsea]

47. Put Zell & Kerry up there

Zell would win.

[oasis]

56. We know what's at work here. I'll trust NH over DU on this one.

[DjTj]

48. Go Johnny Go!

...shame on those staying home...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

51. LOL! Which one?

[DjTj]

55. ...I have a favorite...

...but as far as I'm concerned I'd like to see both do well.

[blondeatlast]

52. AZ primary is Feb. 3rd and I'm STILL undecided, but it's one of these two

or Clark.

Edit: or Kucinich--I like his health care plan, but it doesn't have a prayer.

In November, it's any DEMOCRAT but Bush; even, may God have mercy on my soul, LIEberman.

The object is victory.

[PurityOfEssence]

53. Edwards: star power, more positives, less negatives

His statement that he can beat Junior everywhere can be taken in a cultural sense too, instead of just a regional one. Don't get me wrong, I like Kerry a lot, but this should not be much of a puzzler.

Although Kerry has a truly honorable and long record as a champion of what's good, Edwards' short record is mighty impressive too. Edwards wins on style, presence, feeling of relaxed honesty and intellect. That last one's a killer: Kerry's a sharp guy, but Edwards is really smart; despite this, Kerry comes across like the stuffy intellectual to the dolts who have always held the reins of the electorate in this country, while Edwards doesn't come across like that. That's gold in American politics. So many people are going to like Edwards for both good and facile reasons that his appeal is everywhere you look. He's even got the "thrill of the new" for our fickle faddish nation.

It looks like it may be a cruel joke on Kerry to have a huge comeback just to have it snatched away from him, but that may well happen.

People love Edwards; I've been a very vocal partisan of his for three years now, and I've had many people come back to me to thank me for pointing him out to them. I've also had many initial conversations with people where they told me how much they already liked him; I've heard this from moderate Republicans as well as two bona-fide Communists. (I'm a long-time lefty; I have friends who will look you in the eye and identify themselves as Communists or Socialists.) I also work with lots of rather conservative business types, and there's lots of appeal there, too.

This guy's gold.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. Considering how many Clark and Dean people probably voted as spoilers

because they see Kerry as the frontrunner, I like these poll results.

[Piperay]

58. Edwards...

he was my first pick before Clark entered since then he has been a very close second, so I would definitely go Edwards.