The writing on the wall: Hillary '08

[CWebster]

Watch them manufacture consensus and foist Hillary upon us--as if it was the plan all along. Watch the echo chamber start to promote the sound bytes and endlessly repeat the mantras of "electibility" and the proclamations of "most presidential" and similar claptrap for consumption.

The main editorial from Sunday's NYTimes endorses Clinton's latest spin:

'People in the Democratic Party who have been focused on social issues like abortion and gay rights were devastated by the results of the November election, and they have been wondering how to pursue their concerns in the inhospitable environment of the new Bush administration. Last week, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton helped define a promising path.

Speaking on Monday to about 1,000 abortion rights supporters in Albany, Mrs. Clinton did two important things. First, at a moment when women's reproductive freedom is under severe assault, she firmly restated her support for Roe v. Wade, the landmark 1973 Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion nationwide. What made Mrs. Clinton's speech noteworthy, however, was her second, complementary tack. Without retreating on principle, she deftly shifted the focus of the abortion discussion to where there is the broadest agreement, and where President Bush's policy failure is most apparent - namely, abortion prevention. Echoing her husband's call to make abortion "safe, legal and rare," the senator said that abortion "represents a sad, even tragic choice to many, many women," and that "the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place."

This is sensitive political terrain, and Mrs. Clinton surprised, even offended some in her audience by voicing respect for those who oppose legalized abortion based on sincere religious or moral beliefs...'


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/30/opinion/30sun2.html?oref=login&n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fEditorials


Pro-choice already is exactly that--accepting and respecting of the individual's personal views. It is not necessary to further erode the basic premise by using the inflammatory language of the Right. Last night I watched a segment of "Tina Brown" and she asked some centrist pundit if Hillary's shopworn centrist policies of triangulation were dated. The response was the predictable gushing and mindless Hillary-luv prattle. Last night I also watched the Democratic chair panel held on Saturday rebroadcast on C-Span. Interesting that the candidates lamented the loss of Afro-American and working class voters (What can you expect from a centrist movement, designed specifically to alienate the traditional base and pander to "middle-class swing" voters?, but what of the progressives, who more often than not, are shown the door?

You know who did the most damage and left the party most vulnerable on issues of values and moral credibility? The Clintons. Some of you may not want to hear it--but Bill, with his sleazy hanky panky and Hillary with her naked opportunism, offends middle America.

[Pepperbelly]

1. I don't know why she's want it after her experience in the WH.

Of course, I don't understand why anyone would want the job, particularly with the head-spinning Clinton hate by the righties. Not to mention the short one to the bum the MSM would give her.

Are people just assuming they know or is there some solid information that she is interested?

[googly]

73. Hillary loves the money and power that goes with the White House

Bill was never money hungry, but Hillary always was. Note her
dealings in the commodities market where she made 100,000 from
investing 8000 with the help of friendly brokers.

[MSgt213]

2. Well when our leaders sit on the side lines and do nothing. The GOP will

pick our next candidate. Anyone who puts it beyond the GOP to manipulate us through the MSM is very blind to the fact that at this point in history about the only thing our leaders are good at is being manipulated and outflanked. Its getting quite embarrassing.

[CWebster]

7. But, watch it be both parties and the media

that promote this like there never was a question of anyone else. Watch.

[Clark2008]

3. I know I won't be voting for her.

I'd like to actually win the general election in 2008.

Supporters of all other candidates besides Hillary on this board and elsewhere need to pool together to collect info and disseminated beginning NOW. We have to get up over the whores at the corporate media.

And, I believe the majority of us here are against Hillary 08.

Because, well, we want to win in 2008.

[liveoaktx]

40. Nor will I.

[Township75]

60. I am against her too for many reasons...

one reason that does NOT pertain to her voting record is that she hasn't done anything to deserve the shot now...many people have been working longer and harder for us, and they should get the shot first.

[FreedomAngel82]

66. I agree

She's still pretty new there and hasn't been there that long. I also want to win in 2008. I do like Hillary but not some of her voting record from what I've seen. Whoever does win in the primaries I will support of course but I hope the person is a bit more of a fighter and swinger. Kerry did pretty good and he'll always be my favorite and personal hero. This was my first election and I was glad to have voted for him. If it's not him in again in 2008 I hope it's Clark since Dean will probably get the DNC chair.

[Oversea Visitor]

4. The next President of USA

would have a nightmare job. Me think they give it to a Democrat.

[Clark2008]

5. Hahaha!

Good point.

[Oversea Visitor]

9. Really

Which Republican who is not insane would want to clean up for bush.

[demwing]

16. Aren't they all?

Insane, I mean?

Well ok. not all.

Some of them are insane. Some..

or mostly some of them...Mostly some of them are mostly insane.

No, mostly some of them ARE insane. Some of the are almost all insane...wait...Almost all of them are somewhat insane.

Most, or all of them are insane, somewhat.

Oh hell, they're all insane. Somewhat. yes, that's it.

All of them are somewhat insane.

Otherwise, they would be Dems.

[Oversea Visitor]

19. In that case since they all insane let them have the job

Just take back the Congress and the Senate. The way I look at it, US be "Look Big Shit No Chief". Seriously after bush get done with it, there is much to do the next President got to work 24/7 for the whole 4 years and would not even scratch the surface of this big mess yet.

[FreedomAngel82]

67. I feel bad for

who has to clean up after Bush. Blech. I hope it's someone who doesn't get stressed out easily.

[Oversea Visitor]

20. You Break It

You Own It.

[ClintonTyree]

22. His brother Jebbie?

He's the heir apparent to keep the bush "dyNASTY" intact. Sure, he's crazier than a shithouse rat, he's a bush! But that seems to appeal to the uneducated, bible thumping whack jobs that keep electing these bush cretins. They like their preachers and politicians to be a little on the crazy side, it reinforces their belief system.

[bunkerbuster1]

70. bush "dyNASTY"

heh. new to me.

[electropop]

36. Next pres is Barbara Boxer

The first strong and confident Democrat I've seen in years.

[E_Smith]

44. no chance. n/t

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pepperbelly]

8. How dare you repeat the scurrilous right wing lies about corruption.

Not a single, solitary allegation against the Clintons in Whitewater was founded in anything close to reality. Ken Starr found nothing because they had done nothing wrong.

When you lie down with dogs, IndianaGreen, you get up with fleas.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

24. yeah, i read about the kerry sabatoge

in muLtipLe newsmax articLes.

[papau]

32. You mean Reagan's rape of Selena Walters? - and how does one

challenged grand jury statements since Grand Jury Statements are and remain secret?

I have no problem with anyone 4 years out from the election - and indeed Hillary impresses - at least she impresses me - as a solid Pres quality person.

[IndianaGreen]

49. The Clinton-Lewinsky grand jury testimony was made public

and it was a big media event. Remember the cigar?

[Pepperbelly]

56. Is this a demonstration of how closely you actually follow these things?

Do you even know what the Whitewater witchhunt embroglio was about?

[IndianaGreen]

48. Juanita Broderick testified to a federal grand jury under oath

If you have evidence that she perjured herself, present it so that she can be prosecuted for perjury, otherwise her testimony stands unchallenged and as the unvarnished truth.

Don't forget that it was Big Dog that plead guilty to perjury to a federal judge that was not a rightwinger, but had been his former law student.

I rest my case!

[Pepperbelly]

55. Give me a break!

Exactly like the right wingers, you conflate issues. You implied that Hillary had been charged with being a crook, ergo ...

Juanita Broaderick testified in front of the grand jury. No indictments flowed from her testimony and personally, I believe that she was lying. I have good reasons for believing it but unless you are truly interested, I will not bother to type it.

And Clinton did not "plead guilty" to jackshit. And, Susan Weber Wright, the judge who suspended his law license, was, in a fact, a gop appointee.

[CWebster]

57. Tainted "moral" credibility

And they accuse Dean of being damaged goods for his campaign rally?

[Pepperbelly]

58. "Tainted"?

Any asshole can make any claim. That doesn't make it true nor does the fact that someone made an accusation mean squat about the person being accused, particularly since it requires no basis in fact to make an accusation.

[CWebster]

59. It is politics, you know.

What does reality have to do with it?

After all, we are told that questioning the invasion of Iraq is not only un-American but it loses elections. Yet, we are expected to ignore the crippling effects the Clinton scandals have had on party integrity?

This is the underlying genesis of the moral issue that offends those who have been indoctrinated, through elementary images of Washington and Lincoln, to see their presidents as morally impeccable.

[Pepperbelly]

61. I never said shit about un-American ...

or ever did anything remotely similar regarding those who opposed the war (I myself vascillated between opposition and that little tremor of fear germinated in the soil of paranoia) or anyone else for that matter.

I am calling bullshit on the Clinton smears. It sucks badly enough when willfully ignorant right wingers spout their nonsense. I confront them about about vigorously. If I see the same bullshit here, same thing goes. I challenge it.

I am the poor man's bullshit police. :D

[still_one]

11. I don't know if your assessment is right or not, but I do know this

1. The right wing use clinton as a unifying force, that goes for both bill and hillary. The hate they have unifies them

2. Hillary Clinton voted for the 385 billion budget, which reduces pell grants, diminishes roe v wade, and contains tremendous pork

3. Hillary Clinton voted for the rice nomination. What kind of principle is that. What will she do for the gonzales' nomination?

4. Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq war

5. Hillary Clinton voted for the patriot act

6. Under bill clinton the Glass-Stegal act that forbids the same company from owning a stock brokerage and an investment bank was removed

7. under bill clinton they chose to pursue NAFTA instead of health care

hillary clinton does not distinguish herself other than being a politician.

if the democrats are dumb they will nominate her, and definitely lose again.

[IndianaGreen]

12. And Hillary finds "common ground" with Operation Rescue

which to me is the kiss of death!

[clovis29]

13. wow that is quite a laundry list!!! n/t

[still_one]

17. There is actually much more

It is too bad that Dean didn't win the nomination, at least you knew the difference between him and the republicans

When kerry appologists come out and say dean would have done even worse, I do not agree. In fact I know the exact momement when kerry had lost the election. He was in the grand canyon, and the press asked him if he had to vote again to give * the authority to go into iraq would he? Without hesitation he said he would have voted the same way.

What that told the country was that in spite of the lies that we were told about iraq, he still would have still given * the authority to go into iraq.

whose responsibility is it to declare war?

[Ruth]

18. That's a great list!

We cannot run Hillary in 2008 and expect to win. Some of us liberals, including me, cannot stand her for the above reasons and, then again, she is a lightening rod for the republicans. It would be sheer folly to nominate her either for President or VP!

[Q]

14. safe, legal and rare. legal, rare and safe. rare, safe and legal

A useful soundbite for politicians unwilling to take a stand on an issue. A careful turning of words. Why not say 'legal' first? As in LEGAL, safe and rare? Is it because they wanted to use the 'safe' word first as to not invoke thoughts of 'killing babies' being legal?

We live in the age of the Universal Politician. They don't really support their base...they'll pander to anyone that will vote for them or send them cash. They would run as independents if that's where the money was. But the corporate, centrist wing of the Democratic party has become their cash cow. They don't have to really stand for anything and can easily be swayed to vote with the opposition if it will help their careers and bank accounts.

Hillary: the universal politician. The Bush cabal couldn't exist without her.

[ElectroPrincess]

15. If I lived in New York ...

I'd probably vote for her to be re-elected to the Senate. But the Presidency, nope - no way because she has ZERO moral courage.

Kerry could have been a true JFK but unfortunately he did not have the courage he showed and was appropriately honored during the Vietnam Conflict.

We the people deserve a candidate that stands for us BEFORE the powerful corporate lobbyists.

[Drifter]

21. I live in NY ...

and I don't want her to be my Senator any more. She has not stood up to AWOL on anything.

I will support any Democrat who runs against her. I will not vote for her for anything. Personally, I wish she would just go away.

Cheers
Drifter

[rodeodance]

23. oh my, I inadvertantly dropped into the Rush L. thread--bye bye

[ElectroPrincess]

25. That's a flag for me to look closer into the issues that

Hillary is involved in ... I thought she was doing "the right things" for the state of New York. Now I know to dig deep and do some valid research. Thanks for the flag.

[Jersey_Lib]

29. Hillary, not if we want to win in 08

Hillary brings nothing to the table. She will bring out the core on the right as well as move swing voters further to the right.

To win in 08, there needs to be a moderate Dem running. Which unfortunately leaves few. Swing voters are now the majority. Both parties became so polarized that they forgot that close to 40% of voters are now moderates.

People will laugh at Dean, Hillary or any other Democrat that has moved further to the left. Same goes for the right. Bush won because he picked off the moderate vote while securing his base. Kerry lost because he failed to come to the middle due to pressure from his base. He started to come to the center than Soros held out 26 mil. Tough to turn that down.

Times have changed. Both parties know this. Hillary is making a move and the problem is no one believes her. As a Senator she gave NY nothing. She promised NY 200,000 jobs. Didn't happen and if you blame 9/11 you validate Bush.

Now is the time to run a Lieberman or a Miller type candidate. To regain power you need to play the Republicans game. The more you fight it the more they will win. The last thing we need is for the Republicans to get 60 senate seats. If they do, you might as well kiss it all goodbye.

And the more we whine, the stronger they get. Kerry goes on the air yesterday and makes a fool of himself. Kennedy does the same. And to top it all off, in two sentences Hillary manages to alienate 40% of voters. The country is seeing this and running away from what we believe in. We lost the majority over the last 10 years.

It is time to change and go moderate. This is where the votes are and as long as our egos and hatred for Bush interfere with the big picture, we will continue to sink.

Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward.

[CWebster]

30. Hmm, so you think to beat Republicans

we should become them?

Maybe we need to go back to the drawing board on that one?

[Jersey_Lib]

33. I do

not think we need to become more Republican. However we do need to address the moderates and that is something Kerry did not do, nor will any progressive candidate do.

If this party goes any further to the left we will have our 2008 convention in Havana. Clinton won because he used triangulation and was able to address the moderates while holding on to the core.

You are supposed to learn from your mistakes and not continue to make the same ones.

[CWebster]

34. The truth is perceived as the Left in all this spin-

All that triangulation has accomplished is moving the field further to the Right. Republicans don't triangulate, they put their cumulative foot down and drive it home with unrelenting campaigning 24-7. They create consensus and the perception of reality. Why should we endorse their lies?

[Jersey_Lib]

35. We shouldn't endorse their lies..

However, we learned that what Clinton did worked. How come we are not emulating what he did?

Ideology is one thing. Politics is something completely different. This is about power and right now we don't have it. That pisses me off more than anything. We lost it over ideology. And we will not get it back by complaining about how stupid 52% of the population is.

We get it back by learning. Hillary, Dean, Kucinich, Kerry will push people further away from the party. Moderates do not vote based on ideology. They vote based on issues that affect their everyday lives.

That is why politicians come to the middle. Ideology is for primaries. The general election is based on what is best for the country.

[CWebster]

37. I f we don't have the power, what do we have left to lose?

Might as well go in with guns a'blazing, and give the people a real choice, rather than reinforcing the Republican framework as the only game in town.

Clinton's strategy, devised by Dick Morris, was for short term gain - ultimately it erodes the party's position, it's integrity, it's conviction and it's strength. Ideology IS the positions.

The truth is on our side, why in the world would we want to weaken our position by reaffirming the Right's lies?

[Jersey_Lib]

45. Truth is perception

as you well know. Why have we lost everything since 1994? The rights lies must be working.

So how do we stop the bleeding? Hillary figured it out. Problem is no one will buy what she has to say. So by bringing in a "moderate," we can get the word out.

It seems that both the left and the right are afraid of that word. Joe Lieberman is the man. He has integrity, he believes in a strong country, is fiscally responsible and supports our core issues. Unless there is someone else to present that message, we will have four more years of the same.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IrateCitizen]

47. Clinton was successful because he oozes charisma

It wasn't his "triangulation" that won elections for him -- it was the fact that he is a very charismatic figure. Remember, the Democrats also were CLOBBERED in the House and Senate during the Clinton years. Unfortunately, many of Clinton's boosters misportray his winning as being based on the political track he took, as opposed to correctly recognizing that it was primarily due to his personality.

It's interesting you mention Kucinich as being an "alienating" force. When I was in the military (not very long ago), I would engage in political discussions with some of the hard-core RWers I knew. Of those informed about politics, they actually liked Kucinich the MOST out of all of the Dem hopefuls. Why? Because he was real, he was passionate, and he took stances that directly benefitted working people.

Regardless of political persuasion, people recognize (and reward) conviction and passion. Similarly, people disdain pandering. The most important thing isn't that we start nominating centrists or progressives -- it is that we start nominating people of PASSION who aren't afraid to STAND FOR SOMETHING.

[jab105]

68. Clinton's triangulation lost it for democrats in the future without his

PERSONAL political skill because we had nothing to run on...

I vote for democrats because of economic issues, Clinton gave up the economic issues to the Republicans...so on economic issues, we have become Republican lite...

Now, on social issues we have taken a stand...I dont even agree with a lot of the things that we took a stand on...don't start with me on that here...but, I vote for democrats on economic ground...finding a middle ground on social issues which even further meshes the democrats with the republicans isn't going to win us any new voters, they ALREADY have a party that they vote for on moral issues...

We need to win them back on economic issues, Clinton destroyed that part, and unfortunately, his pesky womanizing has left an "immoral" cloud on the entire democratic party...until we get back to the democratic party of the people...we will not win...

Going more moderate is what we have been doing, see where its gotten us...nowhere...

People do have respect for politicians who stand up for their principles, and I think thats where we have to go back to before we can ever win again...

That being said, Hillary Clinton is the exact opposite from the way we need to go...

[IndianaGreen]

31. Hillary is more Sharonista than Lieberman!

Hillary and Holy Joe went to Israel in 2002 on separate trips. Holy Joe met with representatives of all parties in the Israel/Palestine conflict, including Palestinians and Israeli peace activists. Hillary refused to meet with any Palestinians or Israeli opponents of the Occupation, preferring to meet with Sharon and the other Likud extremists.

Hillary is more Sharonista than Lieberman!

[bunkerbuster1]

71. Maybe in Indiana that's an odd thing for a senator to do

if you represent CT or NY, however, it's merely sensible.

[OneTwentyoNine]

26. Fat chance Hill......

Ain't gonna happen. I lost any remaining reason to vote for Hillary when she chummed up with those fucks at Operation Rescue. Um...did you know one of their members SHOT a doctor here in Wichita Hillary??

How many others have bombed clinics and KILLED doctors? Get a fucking clue Clinton...THEY ARE TERRORISTS plain and simple,and now you can "find common ground" with them?? Shit...go away.

[sellitman]

27. The Puke owned voting machines

will pick our next President. Why does anyone here think otherwise? You all are wasting bandwith talking about it.

[sendero]

28. just like they did with Kerry...

.... they are going to try to shove a candidate that doesn't scare them down our throats.

I cannot think of a single reason I'd want Hillary. Her policies are pure DLC, her rhetoric uninspired and fence-sitting, her popularity outside of NY questionable, she would motivate the opposition like no one else could dream of.

They are not going to get away with this again.

[Larkspur]

38. All the Repukes have to do to kill Hillary in the GE would be to reshow

the tape of Bill Clinton saying, "he did not have sex with that woman (Monica)," with the caption, of "Do we want him back in the White House as First Philanderer Husband?"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. How Long Are Going To Crucify A Man For A Blow Job Where He Didn't Even

Cum?

[Larkspur]

43. The Repukes will crucify Clinton for an eternity...

and what Bill Clinton did with Monica in the Oval Office is morally WRONG. Granted it isn't as bad as some crimes that have been done in that office, but it was wrong period. Bill Clinton should have known better and shown more restraint than frolicing with a 21 year old intern.

[Pepperbelly]

63. Stuff your morals ... I disagree with you vehemently and who the fuck

are you to make moral judgements and attempt to foist them off as fact.

The gop will crucify anyone we nominate. Haven't you got that yet?

[IndianaGreen]

50. It's not the blow job, it was his lying under oath

We cannot have the Chief enforcer of all federal laws, the President of the United States, commit perjury. If we let Clinton slide, we have to let Bush slide. I won't let either one of them slide!

[Pepperbelly]

64. More Right Wing horseshit, Indianna"Green". nt

[IndianaGreen]

75. A lawyer that lies under oath to a federal grand jury will get disbarred

It is a very serious matter that is not to be taken lightly. This is why Clinton plead guilty and why he was disbarred. We undermine the rule of law when we dismiss Clinton's punishment for his wrongdoings as "right Wing horseshit." How can we call for the prosecution of Bush/Cheney for their own, and far more serious crimes, while indulging the wrongdoings of Clinton?

The letter at the end of one's name does not exempt, or condemn, one from under the rule of law!

[IndianaGreen]

51. Do we want him around interns again?

Is President Hillary going to put a chastity belt on Bill every time she has to travel overseas?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Larkspur]

74. I like the idea of Bill in a chastity belt.

About time men be required to wear one.

[d_b]

53. Haha

[Pepperbelly]

62. Who but an imbecile would answer that question with anything but HELL YES!

Give me that ANY day over these corrupt, war-mongering, earth destroying, sanctimonious, self-righteous, chicken-hawk, "let's you and him fight" motherfuckers (pardon my French if you're a religious person)!

[MadHound]

39. Yay, another product of the two party/same corporate master

System of government is going to be shoved down our throats, and though she despises most of what I and others hold dear, we are going to be told by the DLC/DNC that she is the best choice for President. Sorry folks, I'm not buying this time. Time for real change in this country, not the faux change that is foisted upon us by those who pull the political strings in this country. Time for people to wake up and realize that we're being had.

[leesa]

42. It absoluetly IS the candidate the GOP and their pet media is choosing for

us. Just like they chose Kerry last time.

[BlueInRed]

52. I just don't think she can win the nomination

While she has a huge following in the party, I think there is a threshhold of support that she can't pass. A lot of people who love Bill just don't feel the same about Hil. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of activists express public support, only to have "upsets" in the primaries. And she will insure Republican turnout like no other. I think Democrats will be so anxious to win in 08 they won't want a nominee that inspires the opposition to come out in droves.

[Oversea Visitor]

54. Well if you want a Democrat President

Put in Boxer, in 4 years all the Republicans will be walking around with a black eyes or they all be hiding in the bunker and praying that Boxer won't be looking their way with her big chart and facts.

[Melynn]

69. With Howard Dean as DNC chair

Hillary might not win the nomination. Maybe a real progressive will get the nomination. :think:

[ScreamingMeemie]

72. Watch me, and many others like me, leave the party.

I'd be all for viable third party at that point. It's getting to be that the Democratic Party has me on loan...for now.

[Kazak]

76. Suppose Hillary is only helping the Dems out...

with a little bait'n'switch action? :shrug: