Uh oh - Dean's speech just deemed the "Ed Muskie" moment

[Zomby Woof]

Yeah, I loathe Bill Schneider too, but the genie is out of the bottle. Since the speech is STILL the buzz 2 days after the fact, I think we have seen the beginning of the end of Dean's candidacy.

I'd prefer the obituary from a better source than Schneider or CNN, but I welcome Dean's demise just the same. It's unfair to Muskie though, who was a decent guy.

[Jack_Dawson]

1. What was the Ed Muskie moment? Do tell

[madmax]

2. He cried

but I don't remember the context.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

8. they THOUGHT he cried in defending attacks on his wife

"...The attacks were more than condemnations of Muskie's policies -- they were personal and vicious. Just before a Muskie appearance in New Hampshire, Loeb attacked Muskie's wife, Jane in a Manchester Union Leader editorial, accusing her of being a drunk (this, of course, was untrue). When Ed arrived and saw the story, he became extremely agitated and, on a wintry day, gave a speech on a makeshift platform in front of Loeb's newspaper. Tired, angry and exhausted, he launched into an emotional defense of his wife. His voice broke slightly as he choked up. But the press reported that Ed Muskie had cried tears of frustration. Horrors! In those days, anyone who would be president could not show emotion . . . and certainly could not cry. In my opinion, that single event derailed the Muskie campaign -- from then on, it was downhill. (Today, of course, politicians cry at the drop of a hat, and no one thinks any worse of him or her . . . and that's as it should be. If someone is without emotion, he is ipso facto disqualified to lead a nation in my view.)

Long after the event, David Broder of the Washington Post told me the "crying incident" was a bum rap. He was standing right down front. It was snowing, and, as flakes of snow landed on Ed Muskie's head, they melted and streaked down his face. One reporter decided they were tears "pack mentality" became operative -- and everyone reported that Muskie had cried. Only Broder insists to this day that Muskie did not cry.

http://www.muskiefoundation.org/stories.hyman.html

[madmax]

11. Thanks n/t

[VolcanoJen]

30. Thanks for that refresher, NewYorker!

It was horrific, the way Muskie was brutalized after the "crying" incident. I never knew that Broder insists he did not cry... fascinating.

At any rate, I'd have to agree that Dean's speech was a "Muskie Moment," for lack of a better term.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. and bizarrely, McGovern's later handling of the Eagleton issue

was based on the same fears of someone looking weak because he sought treatment for depression.
1972 was totally bizarre. (and Broder's a good guy.)

[Zomby Woof]

37. Broder has long sold out

Broder used to be halfway respectable, and his defense of Muskie was an example of good journalism. But sometime by Clinton's term he became a wishy-washy squishy sell-out, appeasing the Right while pretending to be liberal. I can't read him anymore.

:hi: Jen!

[dolstein]

64. True, but as Muskie's experience shows, perception is reality

Howard Dean may not in fact be a raving lunatic. He may simply have been screaming so that his voice could be heard over the din of the overflow crowd. But the only "fact" that counts is that he is now perceived as a raving lunatic.

[sandnsea]

10. Snow was melting on his face

I don't know which is true. But they had really went after his wife in that campaign and he stood up and defended her. Whether it was tears or snow melting doesn't matter, water was on his face. Therefore, he cried. Can't have a leader who cries, kind of like what they tried to do to Kerry earlier this year. Back then, it was a big deal. Muskie went downhill from there.

[JI7]

35. do you mean

when kerry cried while hearing some woman talk about losing a job or not being able to pay for health care ? he has cried some times before during things like memorial day,e specially when it comes to those he served with.

[sandnsea]

40. Yes, that's the time

Remember how they tried to smear that? Well, they discovered it's a new age. And what are they going to say when a bunch of war vets get up and cry together? Come a long way, thank god.

[no name no slogan]

9. 1972 campaign, in Florida, IIRC

Ed Muskie was being hounded by a drunken hippie sort on his "whistle-stop" train trip in Florida. He lost it and went completely nuts at the end of the tour.

In 1972, Muskie was seen as the "unbeatable" frontrunner before the process started. He had the big endorsements and tons of cash. He was assumed to be the party's nominee against Nixon.

For more info, check out Hunter S. Thompson's book Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail. This book is REQUIRED reading for any presidential campaign follower. It's still relevant 32 years later.

[sandnsea]

12. I've never heard that story

I always hear the New Hampshire crying story as the end of his campaign. This is interesting, maybe it was a series of missteps, insignificant one at a time, but put together, not too good.

[no name no slogan]

33. You gotta read the book!

I've nearly worn the covers off mine. The FL incident is REALLY hilarious, partially because Thompson played a minor role in it. He helped get the drunk guy on the train w/ him by "loaning" him his press pass. There's no way I can recount the whole thing, but basically this drunk followed the "Sunshine Express" all the way down Florida, and made a big scene at the final stop by accosting big Ed and telling him to "shut up and get me some more gin, you old fart!"

Thompson followed the McGovern campaign from its humble start in the late fall of 1971 until the bitter end in November 1972. The book is a huge revelation about how presidential campaigns are run. Although some of it is a bit dated, much of it is still relevant. Not to mention the appearances by many future Democratic stars, like pollster Pat Cadell and a young Gary Hart.

Definately worth reading especially during this primary season, where everything is changing so rapidly. :D

[sandnsea]

42. I'll look for it

I read bits and pieces out of Madeleine Albright's book. She worked on the Muskie campaign too. And some others. But I think Muskie's is where they had an incident in D.C. They were having a fundraiser and all of a sudden all of these deliveries start showing up. Flowers, pizzas, limos, and even a magician. If they had had to pay for all of that, it would have eaten up any profit from the fundraiser. They somehow fixed it all. They ended up letting the magician perform I think. They blamed it on one of the other campaigns initially, which I thought was interesting. In the end, they decided Nixon had done it. Campaigning really is alot different than we think!

[madmax]

19. Another book to add to my list.

I'm think I'm gonna need a bigger nightstand! I can't believe how many political books I've bought in the last 3 years.

[Zomby Woof]

23. HST is the best

That is required reading.

[Jerseycoa]

44. Oh, wow

I have to reread that immediately. Thanks for the reminder.

[Renew Deal]

13. Crying

New Hampshire is far, far different, too, from 1972, when Democratic hopeful Ed Muskie saw his White House dream melt. As he held a news conference outdoors to denounce a newspaper that had attacked his wife, critics saw tears in his eyes, supporters saw melting snowflakes.
<snip>

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/raasch/r021.htm

[LuminousX]

3. And we know these talking heads are never wrong.

[Capn Sunshine]

4. Too Too Bad

no one else can Beat *.

No one else has remotely as much money and fund raising ability.
No one.

No one else comes close in national pollling to beating *.

And if one thinks Iowa is the end all be all, that says a lot right there to ones susceptibility to media buzz.

[Jack_Dawson]

7. Clark does better v. Bush than Dean

What are you talking about?

[lancdem]

14. Um, what polls are you referring to?

The recent polls on http://www.pollingreport.com show Kerry, Dean, Clark, etc. about the same head to head vs. Bush, give or take a few points. Check them out.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. Please stop trying to introduce facts into the debate.

It only confuses them.

[madmax]

5. Didn't Schneider look like Elmer Fudd!

That HAT!! LOL

[SoCalDem]

16. Yup.. HE'S a fine one to talk about "moments" ..The old Fuddster

:)

[Zomby Woof]

21. Schneider is a dick

I don't want anyone thinking I am defending him, and I will repeat that Muskie was a good man who was smeared by the "liberal" media.

But it matters that the speech is still in the news when it normally would have died down, and that Dean's momentum is down, as two new polls have suggested.

I doubt if it was the "Muskie Moment" - I think his 3rd place showing was bad enough, and he won't win NH now.

[adadem]

49. I thought I was the only one

but I think he looks like Elmer Fudd everyday!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. That hardly the worst I've seen of Dean

He always acts like that, he's kind of weird and you can tell the crowds are starting to go to his head. But if a goofy speech while he was buzzed is the best they have, they'll have to do better.

[He loved Big Brother]

61. "Buzzed"?

As in, "buzzed" on an intoxicatng substance?

[demnan]

15. Yeeeeaaaarghhhh!

You guys are just jealous you don't have a cool candidate. Dean the one they love to hate.

Too bad, what people should be worried about is health care, rather than a candidate in an over-tired moment. But "Yeeeeaaaarghhhh!" is more important than whether Mom can afford her cancer treatments, isn't it?

[Zomby Woof]

22. true!

Which is why I am supporting DK, who has a better healthcare plan than Dean.

And if you honestly think I am jealous, then I must thank you for another great laugh for the day! :D

[beaconess]

63. Trust me - no one but his own fans thought he was "cool"

[NoPasaran]

17. The SCLM is just doing its job

WHy don't they ever talk about that time in Austin when Boooosh bit the head off a live bat?

[wtmusic]

18. Please fwd to all those voters in NH

who have him tied for first place :eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

26. down by 4 this AM

Let's just say 1st place isn't the lock it was a scant few weeks ago. :D

[TexasPatriot]

34. from Bennet at ARG

"It is becoming clear that Dean's speech in Iowa is a very effective self-inflicted easy argument for likely Democratic primary voters not to vote for Dean both in New Hampshire and elsewhere.

In reviewing the tracking from last night, Dean's favorable rating is down dramatically (39% favorable, 30% unfavorable, 31% undecided last night compared to 57% favorable, 19% unfavorable, 24% undecided for the 3 nights ending Jan 19), which is the first step that voters take in moving away from a candidate. And as I have completed on-air drive-time interviews this morning on radio stations in South Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona, and California, every radio station has played, some more creatively than others, parts of Dean's speech in Iowa either while I was waiting to go on the air or during the interview.

Voter interest in tomorrow's debate is high enough for Dean to bounce back with a great performance, but this is beginning to look like a major problem for Dean in New Hampshire."

[Sparkle]

20. Why post something like this when you know it will make the

Dean supporters mad?

[Zomby Woof]

25. How they feel is up to them

They have these options:

1. Don't read the thread.

2. Hide the thread.

3. Put me on ignore.

4. Control their emotions (though Dean is a poor role model there).

5. Reply rationally.

I have NO IDEA how anyone will feel when I post a thread. That isn't up to me.

[Uzybone]

27. This isnt Dean Underground

they get mad when you say Dean lost in Iowa. Left to them there would be nothing here but pure praise for Dean.

[hey2370]

24. Ed who?

Is this like comparing Dean to McGovern or Goldwater? Sure, the poli-sci majors and the political junkies might understand, but the vast majority of voters have no idea what the heck this means.

You might as well reference Mr. Ed or the Donna Reed Show for the mileage this will get.

[Zomby Woof]

29. Most of DU knows

We're political junkies here, so I talk up to my audience, not down.

Google is a really good search engine.

[Maddy McCall]

39. No, sadly many don't

Not Dukakis, or McGovern, or Muskie, or Mondale.

:-(

[Zomby Woof]

43. well I was being nostalgic!

I guess it isn't true anymore, but I refuse to treat my readers like they are ill-informed. ;-)

[otohara]

28. Then...Said Dean Was Widely Ridiculed on Radio & TV

well no shit! Who besides Al Gore is more widely criticized by TV/RadioWhores?

[CMT]

32. you're good at slamming Dean

but do you ever say anything positive about DK?

[MuseRider]

45. Do a search

on his name, you will find many.

[DJcairo]

38. Remember when Kerry let out a tear in NH months ago?

The media ganged up on him then, calling it his "Ed Muskie moment"

Funny how things change aint it??

[VolcanoJen]

41. Dean's "Star-Spangled Banner" rendition on CNN...

... was a little weird, too. Schneider showed it right before he made the "Muskie" comment.

What was going on in the crowd???? It looked like a guy tried to pull out a confederate flag, and then Dean started singing the National Anthem.

[Jerseycoa]

48. I know!

It got weirder right then.

[Maddy McCall]

52. And then he flubbed the words...

he said something about "spice and ...."

:eyes:

[Hoosier Democrat]

46. I agree, it may be the "Muskie Moment"

As much as I hate to admit it, Dean really shot himself in the ass with the speech in Iowa. Of course, this is all just red meat for the huge anti-Dean media block.

As bad as Dean did, he still pulled in 17% more votes than that guy who the author of this thread is pushing. Kucinich may have his heart in the right place, but his chances of being nominated are about the same as a Bush family sleepover at the Osbournes.



:kick:

[Zomby Woof]

50. this thread isn't about DK

Nice try. This thread is about the faltering Dean campaign and my enjoyment of it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

47. Google News: "Dean Muskie" gets 119 results

Probably more tomorrow: http://news.google.com/news?q=Muskie+Dean&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=G&scoring=d

[jburton]

51. Oh Please

99% of Americans have no clue who Muskie was, much less the "Muskie Moment"

Just more invalid media comparisons along the lines of

Dean=McGovern
Dean=Gingrich
Dean=No $$
and now
Dean=Muskie

This is all portrayed as some sort of "expert analysis"

Did Schnieder mention he works for AEI? Just wondering.

[Zomby Woof]

53. 99%??

This isn't America, this is DU, where I expect 99% of the posters to know who Muskie is, and if they don't, to look it up.

[jburton]

55. Well, I know who Muskie was

and yes, this is DU, but I'm assuming non-DUers will be allowed to vote in the election.

That was what I was saying: 99% of Americans have no concern about this comparison.

[Maddy McCall]

56. You are kidding...

Every baby boomer remembers.

[jburton]

57. Did you ask them all?

n/t

[Zomby Woof]

58. YOU made the assertion!

Defend your 99% figure with some FACTS, for she does not owe you a refutation.

[jburton]

59. You're right

I can't. Part of the problem is I can't find any current polls about Muskie. It's almost as if people don't follow him anymore.

[beaconess]

54. I think it's more akin to Dukakis in the tank . . .

[no name no slogan]

60. vroom vrooom!

[SahaleArm]

62. LOL - That's harsh n/t

[no name no slogan]

65. Yeah, and I organized two precincts for Duke in the '88 caucuses!

The tank thing was the definative "jump the shark" moment of his campaign. I was cringing all through August and September, when Dukakis pissed away a 17% post-convention bounce by not doing anything.

He finally rallied in late October, when he started walking the Democrat walk and talking the Democrat talk-- all too late of course.

And to think that so many liberals supported him in 1988 because we thought he was "electable"!