We need to act like adults

[Mass_Liberal]

Dean made a wierd noise. That is all. And this entire forum seems dedicated to ragging on him for it. And declaring, "wow, this noise is the death knoll of his campaign. So much for radicals". Plenty of people here are acting like babies.

Can DU get back to substantive issues, please? It's kind of sad that some people here need to be reminded to act mature by a 14 year old.


edit for a bit more tact

[Joe the Revelator]

1. IMO, it was a lot more then a "loud noise"...

it was proof positive that Dean may not have what it takes to when in a GE. That being said, if he gets the nomination i will fully support him.

[Mass_Liberal]

10. I hope that you jest

are you saying that him making the noise, or yell, or whatever you wish to call it, makes Dean unqualified? George Bush won in a general election and he didn't just yell.

Remember, Bush is the producer of such brilliant tidbits as "The question is: will the highways of the internet become more fewer?"
and "Families is where are nation finds hope, where wings take dream."

'Nuff said.

[Joe the Revelator]

13. It was much more then the yell...

it was the entire over the top behavior from the moment he stepped on stage until the moment he stepped off.

[bearfartinthewoods]

41. plus he lost in his first time in front of the voters

voters who have had a year to get to know him and they found him wanting and now with a ten point drop in the polls, what do you expect?

edited to remove rude remark inspired by video of 'dean's' arrival at the airport in NH ala dr. hannibal lecter in straight jacket, leather face mask and strapped to a gurney

[kanrok]

25. Bush also wanted to "put food on our families"

n/t

[maxr4clark]

2. Are you 14?

[Mass_Liberal]

4. yes

eom

[Iverson]

33. maturity has no age

:toast:

[maxr4clark]

45. Cool!

My daughters are 12 and 11, and they keep me informed about who says what about the candidates and little George at their schools. They've been trying to figure out what a caucus is (we're in Seattle, ours is Feb 7); I've tried but haven't had much luck explaining it.

They like the nicknames the candidates got on the Daily Show. We tried to get them to call Gephardt Powder, but they insisted on Skeletor. We couldn't remember what Kerry was; when they called Kerry "Frankenstein", I tried to get them to go for Lincoln instead to stay away from pejoratives; unfortunately my wife got them stuck on "Lurch". My personal favorite was DK's: "Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D, Ohio)". Compared to the others, which were all supposed to be hip-hop, it was a hoot.

Do you know any nicknames for General Clark, pejorative or otherwise but preferably funny? The Daily Show called him Gen'Real, but personally I don't think that's very funny. As Clark supporters, we don't hear what other candidates' supporters call him. I think the girls would like to laugh at Clark once in a while, too.

Not that that is a serious issue like you asked for--or very adult, for that matter. But it's fun.

[Mass_Liberal]

46. I'm sorry

don't know any clark nicknames. He's a great guy. But not particularly funny.

[spooky3]

5. good for you, mass, if you are!

Sorry if I treat you like a 14 year old :-)!

[Mass_Liberal]

11. no problem

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. Apparently so.

since it's obviously a bit of a strecth to say this "entire forum seems dedicated to ragging on him for it"

[Mass_Liberal]

14. my apologies

you are right. I exaggerate. However, 5 of the threads in the front page of this forum are things like, what's with the scream? Right after it happened this whole forum was covered with many, many threads on the issue.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. Apologies back

You are pretty mature for a 14 y.o. BTW Where in Mass are you?
I'm from Springfield but, as advertised, now live in NYC!

[Mass_Liberal]

35. I'm from Newton

moving back to NYC next year. Again.

[Dookus]

3. I sympathize with the desire

of Dean supporters to let this fade away. But it's not going to.

I honestly believe this is Dean's "Dukakis in a tank" moment, and it will be talked about for years to come.

[West Coast Democrat]

9. Let's just be glad it happened early on

instead of later...

[tom_paine]

12. Christ, it's another Bushevik non-issue

EARTH TONES!
EARTH TONES!
INVENTED THE INTERNET!

I live in a nation gone mad. A nation so debased and weak and lazy and stupid it's no wonder we gave it all up to the first cabal with the will to shamelessly take it from us in plain sight.

I, too, support Clark over Dean (though I would happily support Dean if he wins the nomination), but this is ridiculous.

[dave29]

27. But how will Clark

get passed his "voting for Nixon, Reagan and Bush Sr." Moments? That's what I want to know

;)

[Dookus]

31. he doesn't need to get past them...

a large majority of Americans voted for them, too. Most voters aren't partisan idealogues.

[Democrats unite]

6. How can you act like an adult...

if you are not one?

[Mass_Liberal]

15. wow!!!

ya got me there, partner.

[Democrats unite]

24. Not being sarcastic here...

Just going by your last statement in your original post.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

29. Something to be said for "mental age"

If you need a demo on how that works (or doesn't) get into a conversation with a freeper sometime. ;)

[Mass_Liberal]

36. ok then

what I was referring to as "acting like adults" was maturity.

[waylon]

8. Its not just a weird noise...

Its behavioral characteristics of a candidate. It isnt just showing enthusiasm, its showing rage. Its not just "letting off steam", its not controlling emotions. Moreover, its not presidential. What it has become, is fodder for EVERYONE, friends and enemies alike.


He should know better and you should not accept it from him.

[tom_paine]

16. Bullsh*t

I was just wondering, how many times have YOU done something or said something in the heat of the moment that you regretted?

Now, naturally, you don't have a Party-Loyal Bushevik Sub-Media just looking for anything to discredit you and aren't you lucky?

This is a mountain out of a molehill.

And I'm a Clark supporter.

[boxster]

21. Sure, we've all done things we regretted, but we're not...

running for President of the United States.

[waylon]

28. You blame the media, I expect more from a candidate

You can play the blame game but it wont help.

My kids do the same thing...."its not my fault Im failing, my teacher doesnt like me!"

[Rich Hunt]

69. do you know

We had a Republican governor in Illinois who used to do that? I saw it with my own eyes.

That guy served four terms.

Plus whatever it was, it surely wasn't 'rage'.

And again - nice sig. Where did you get it?

[boxster]

17. This IS a substantive issue, if you're trying to determine the best

candidate to beat Bush in November.

I'm sorry, but this is an issue and it speaks to electibility. If Dean's campaign is anywhere near as "damaged" as it appears it may very well be by this, we need to take that into consideration if the overall goal is to kick Bush out of the White House in November.

It's sad that his "weird noise" (more like a series of weird noises to be more accurate) may derail his campaign, but he really has no one to blame but himself. It was a serious miscalculation and it lessens his chances of being taken seriously by voters.

[Mass_Liberal]

38. him making a noise or a yell

or however much of a bad exclamation as you could possibly characterize it as is not enough to be an issue, period.

[boxster]

50. Excuse me, Mass_Liberal. Weird noise was YOUR characterization, not mine.

Dean's tirade was not one weird noise. It was a rant, and it was most certainly not what the average voter would consider presidential.

Screaming and yelling and ranting like a lunatic may be fine for you and other Dean supporters, but many of us actually want to beat Bush in November.

[Mass_Liberal]

52. what I meant was

the yell that people were commenting on. What he was saying was states that he would win. That is not a rant. It is clearly and obviously unfair to call Dean a lunatic. Your tone is insulting. Dean can win in November. Your post, on the other hand your IS a rant. A propagandist rant.

[boxster]

58. Sure, believe that all you want.

If you honestly think "what he was saying was states that he would win", I suspect you haven't actually even seen the video.

What he was doing was screaming states he thought he could win. Screaming and saying are two different things.

Too funny - my tone is insulting; Dean's screaming is just fine. Your accusations of "propaganda" are fine; my opinion is insulting. Ah, yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Do you even understand the word "propaganda"? Propaganda is the spreading of information related to a specific cause.

This is not a cause and this is not propaganda. It is an opinion, just as your comments are an opinion.

The difference, however, is that my opinion just happens to be shared by many more people than share your opinion. That is quite obvious, otherwise you wouldn't have bothered to post this thread in the first place.

[Mass_Liberal]

53. If presidential

means stiff as a board, than maybe we as members of a democracy need to re-evaluate what kind of person we want in office.

[boxster]

59. No, presidential means not looking like a ranting lunatic.

Would you want Dean screaming like that in the State of the Union address? How about Cabinet meetings? How about when he doesn't get his way in Congress?

You think a tantrum is the answer? Does screaming accomplish a lot in foreign policy matters?

Think again. If Dean gets this stressed out by the first loss in a 50-state campaign, then he very likely can't handle the stress of the most stressful job on the planet.

If Bush had done it (or Clark or Kerry or Edwards, for that matter), you and every other Dean supporter on this board would be blasting him unmercifully for it. With good reason.

[Adjoran]

18. Wisdom beyond your years

Congratulations.

Dean hurt himself, but it isn't a fatal blow by any stretch of the imagination. We have a long way to go, and he still has more money and a better national organization than any other candidate.

The Dean supporters are wrong to say it's nothing. The supporters of other candidates are equally wrong to say it's "Howard's End."

The truth, as is usually the case, lies somewhere in between.

[izzie]

19. I do like Dean since I first saw him years ago. But,,,,,

the thing is we must go with the guy that will win and I am nor sure he can do it. I like the grass roots stuff he has done and I think that is where our work should go but every one keeps saying we should go for the Middle. Kerry is good and we could all back him I am sure. I would not mind Kerry and Edwards at all. Both good Dem.

[ouija_board]

32. But isn't this a time when people are looking for a real alternative?

That notion that the Dems are just the lesser of two evils hasn't really dissipated. I would think that a candidate who really distinguishes himself from the pack (i.e. the Middle and Right) would be more likely to attract voters. A couple of months ago, here in Oz, we had to elect a new leader for the Labor Party - the choice was between a young, fiery fellow with a lot of guts and passion and a touch of larrikinism (which Aussies love), and the tried and true, quiet-speaking, "safe" candidate. Labor chose the young, fiery fellow, looking for real change, and Labor's popularity has soared as a result. If the election had've been held this month, Labor would have won. So my point is that sometimes, I believe it's important to take a real risk, to provide a real alternative that will engage people and energise them to vote. I'm not saying Dean's the man (I don't feel qualified to judge properly on the candidates just yet) but perhaps the fiery guy with a lot of guts and passion is also the preferred option for America, above the safe route of a Kerry or an Edwards.

[dreissig]

51. Larrikinism

I've never heard of larrikinism until you described a young fiery Australian candidate as having a touch of it. The concept is not unique to Australia, but it's uniquely celebrated there. Australians are fond of people and things that break the rules and don't quite fit in, such as itinerant sheep shearers.

The Australian larrikin sense of humour is mischievous, depreciatory and anti-authoritarian. This sense of humour arises from certain characteristics of the Australian "legend" identified by Ward such as scepticism, egalitarianism and derision towards affectation that are evident in larrikins' confrontations with authority, elaborate practical jokes on each other and the community at large and a "propensity for vulgarising the arts"

http://www.media-culture.org.au/0311/6-stockwell-carlisle-big-things.html


Outsized koala bear shows larrikin humor

[BearFlagDemocrat]

56. Precisely.

Neither Lefties nor moderate voters are really going to get behind a guy who needs to be wound up to make a speech. People are done with "safe" and "compromising", they want someone who is going to stand up for what they believe in.

[JVS]

20. Don't you understand that making noises is a serious issue?

Only stuff like giving Bush support for the War is trivial.

[salinen]

22. "people here are acting like babies."

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! oops poopies.

[JVS]

34. War is not a serious issue?

[lastknowngood]

23. Give it up DU has given up all hope

They now are in a destroy Dean campaign and nothing will change their mind. I suggest you start some positive Dean threads only so we can really discuss this issue. I'm unable to do so as I'm a new kid on the block. We need inspired and angry leadership our country has been taken over by raging, screaming, right wing idiots and unless we get our base at least as angry and fired up we are destined to lose.

[lucidmadman]

26. It will pass....

...in a few days it will be a big nothing. I liked him naming off the states. I bet he knows the state capitals too. Does Dubya?

[45th Med]

37. Thankfully, 14 year olds can't vote. nt

[Mass_Liberal]

39. hmmm

not sure what you are trying to say. But I'm fairly sure I detect an insult. Please clarify.

[45th Med]

48. There is a reason why there are age limits.

Maturity has nothing to do with experience. First of all, maturity may show through more with proper punctuation. My taxes are paying for your public school, federally funded, 30 year old textbook education? Please capitalize the first letter of each sentence and end statements with a period. Be sure to run the spell checker too.

Thankfully, you can't vote until you're old enough to serve your country and that's the way it should be.

[Mass_Liberal]

49. well

I have a couple of things to say to that. For one, punctuation doesn't mean squat for maturity. I am sure that many people your age have bad punctuation. At least I have the excuse of not having finished my education yet ;-).

Also, I am extremely grateful for your tax money going towards my education. Of course, as soon as I am of tax-paying age, I will reciprocate (to your kids or grandkids).

Personally, I believe my vote would serve my country. Of course, on the note of age, around 50% of people that voted in 2000 voted for Bush, suggesting perhaps that many people of voting age are none the wiser for their age.

[45th Med]

54. Believe me, when you get older....

you will look for much more substance in a candidate than pep rallies and random acts of yelling. You will want someone who is of stable frame of mind to unscrew this clusterf#ck this country is in after 3 years of getting run into the proverbial financial hole and getting kids killed for oil.

I mean, you'll be feeling the hurt when you graduate from college and you can't find a job......or have to flip burgers after shelling out a cool $100,000 for a halfway decent degree. You'll be disillusioned quickly, I won't have to do that for you, better you find out for yourself.

[Mass_Liberal]

55. I believe that your post

is the definition of patronizing. I don't need you to tell me what the president has done to this country. I know that for myself. I'm not a moronic naive teen.

When I grow older, I hope I will have the wisdom to vote for someone not on how the media portrays them, but on whether they are honest, passionate, and have a positive vision I relate to.

Please, stop talking down to me.

[boxster]

61. There's part of your problem. You are assuming that we are criticizing

Dean because of the media. This has nothing to do with the media.

I don't need the media to tell me that Dean ranted and screamed, because I watched this thing live. Did you? Somehow, I doubt that you did because your mischaracterization of the events is extensive. This certainly wasn't about a "weird noise"; it was about a several-minute rant where Dean screamed and yelled and looked like he was going to burst a blood vessel.

My opinion of Dean's actions was based on personal observation. If you honestly believe that what he did was good for his campaign, wait another day or two and look at the polls in NH. There are already signs that it is going to cost him dearly.

Lastly, quit blaming the media for this and quit assuming that the rest of us are forming our opinions based on the media coverage of this event. Many of us watched this unfold live and have the exact same opinion now that we had before there was one iota of media coverage.

[Mass_Liberal]

65. I believe that you will make your own opinion

I don't think that the media does everything wrong in this country. I do believe that they show the worst part of the speech, instead of the whole thing in context. They are biased and are trying to make up undecided's minds.

[boxster]

68. I agree - of course they will show the worst parts of the speech.

But, that doesn't mean that plenty of people didn't independently come to a conclusion before there was any media coverage whatsoever.

As soon as Dean's speech was over, there were dozens of posts on DU expressing shock, surprise, and many other emotions. Obviously, these people were unaffected by press coverage because at that point, there hadn't been any. I would suggest that people are more honest about their emotional interpretation of an event minutes after the event than they would be days later. These initial reactions are important, because they point to what people were feeling immediately after the speech.

Even Dean supporters expressed shock. One of the first comments I read was from a Dean supporter that was "devastated" because she had just watched her candidate "implode on national TV."

That is a gut reaction, and likely an honest one. I'd be more likely to believe those initial reactions of people watching Dean live than I would of people reviewing the video now and commenting on it after two days of media exposure.

[texasmom]

62. Mass_Liberal

Great post and replies. I am so impressed that you are 14. I have taught middle-school kids for sixteen years, and I can think of only a few with your insight and wisdom.
I'm looking forward to more of your posts.

[Mass_Liberal]

64. thanks a lot

what do you teach?

[texasmom]

66. history n/t

[Mass_Liberal]

67. sweet

my favorite subject. I knew I liked something about you.

[meow mix]

40. it matters, it has impact, the world is focused on it pretty big

so everyone here should just ignore!
ostriches anyone?

[onecitizen]

42. Weird noise?

What weird noise? :shrug:

Personally, I loved it. He was just letting off steam. The poor guy has been under such pressure it's no wonder he made a weird noise! Randi Rhodes has been playing the "scream" almost non-stop on her show. Wish I could get an audio of it.

[meow mix]

47. it was pretty wierd

it sounded painful even..
gives me flashbacks of when we had to castrate the new goats.

kinda like
EEEEeeAuuuaaaaughhhhg
but really loud.

[Woodstock]

43. EVERYONE is talking about it

So I guess it really matters. It bothers me that the Republicans/media might have eliminated one of our candidates for us. Drudge followed up taunting Dean with a Kerry ahead in the polls graphic. I feel like for some reason they wanted Dean out of the race and Kerry in it. And got what they wanted. This is no slam on Kerry, but why do I feel like a pawn? To be fair, though, Dean handed it to them - of all speeches, he should have taken a Valium before this one.

[redqueen]

44. The media has taken to acting like jackasses

And many have followed. Sad, but true.

[Shanty Oilish]

57. Overcoming the 'I Have A Scream' speech

He cannot overcome this, IMO. He gave substance to baseless speculation about his stability. Yeah it was just rallying the troops but it also suggested a big disconnect with the reality of a stunning loss. Most of all, it has made him the butt of a thousand jokes AND it's a sound byte, which makes it almost immortal. It only remains for the diehards to realize and accept what has happened. Dean may have set a record for poll number crashes, and his handlers and advisors ought to be drummed out of service.

[Mass_Liberal]

60. kick

at 60!

[windansea]

63. hey Mass Liberal

all I can say is...you have guts to post in this mosh pit of opinion

and I'm not talking down to you...

:yourock: