Why can't other candidates beat Dean...

[CTLawGuy]

by promoting themselves and what they have to offer to the Democratic Party and the American people rather than by constantly savaging a man who could very well be our nominee?

Do the constant attacks mean these candidates have nothing to offer?

[Northwind]

1. In a word

Yes

[Renew Deal]

2. Dean is a myth

Dean has built up an aura that isn't real. He says one thing and does another. Sometimes people have to cut through the bullshit.

[liberalnurse]

10. Well, my check is real.....

and I just sent $600.00 to Dean.

[KittyWampus]

14. Good For You-You're Now An Official Part Of The "Dean Phenomena"

too bad that the "Dean Phenomena" is the story and not Dean's actual Center-Right record nor is his dash to the Left upon entering the race nor are his substantial number of gaffes.

But then, we can actually say these things aren't the story YET. Because Dean's Teflon is purely temprorary.

It is NOT intrinsic to him nor to his campaign. It if a functin of a Corporate Owned media that has a definate agenda.

[TLM]

25. You know it is so funny to see a Clark supporter talk about Dean's dash

to the left.

Care to tell me when the last time was that Dean went to a republican FUNDRAISER and heaped praise on republicans?


You want to talk about a shift to the left... how about looking at the guy who would not even say he was a democrat until he decided to run?

When Clark was at a repuke fundrtaiser talking about how much he loved Reagan and what a great leader Bush was... Dean was signing the civil unions bill into law in Vermont while getting death threats.

While Clark was war profiteering with companies like axciom, Dean was expanding medicare and SCHIP in his state to cover everybody.

And you want to talk about who has a real record on the left?

LOL!

[stickdog]

49. Clark's only "record" is praising Bush & voting for Repukes & centrists.

[DancingBear]

21. When he wins 10 states in November

I'll bet you wished you'd bought groceries instead.

But the primary's the thing, right?

[TLM]

26. Funny how the best thing Clark pushers can say...

is that the other guy can't win... eventhough that other guy is beating the juggernaut Clark.


Face facts... after the capture of Saddam, Clark has no chance of winning anything. CLark will lose the dem base and the greens... and the military votes will go to the guy who caught Saddam, not the guy who got fired from his command.

I'm not going to bet my contry on the promise that Clark will get republican votes... because over and over again we've seen when dems try to win by out hawking the right... they lose.

Maybe Clark can get a picture in a tank?


Frankly I'll go with the guy who wasn't ashamed to say he was a democrat and the guy who was there when it counted and the guy who is exciting people across the country like no democrat ever in the history of our party.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

38. If you don't like dealing with fundy-lefties you can join the Republicans

They could use a moderating influence.

[DancingBear]

41. Wow - what insight.

Howard is lucky to have you. Let me guess - another member of "the base?"

With you on board, I modify my previous statement - 39% and 9 states. Have you NO idea that mainstream America votes, as well?

Sorry, rhetorical question.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DancingBear]

44. Let's see

Learn to cope with the force on the right that has hijacked the party, or learn to cope with a force on the left that wants to hijack the party.

Tell me again how one is better than the other (note: the "we're right, they're wrong" argument not allowed).

[wyldwolf]

56. You won't get an anwer to this...

They have somehow been led to believe they are and always have been the base of the party - ignoring history and facts in the process.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

58. How old are you? Perhaps you don't remember some candidates

named Bobby Kennedy, John F. Kennedy and Clinton for that matter.

[dave29]

12. a myth wrapped in an enigma

wrapped in a web of massive grassroots support

;)

[flpoljunkie]

22. Al Gore's Endorsement and its effect on numbers for Americans for Dean...

A Dean blogger from the Texas yellowdog Democrats reports that 7,000 people signed up on Dean's web site within the first 24 hours of Gore's endorsement, which brought the number to 527,320, less than 1%.

http://fortbendcountyyellowdogdemocrats.net/archive/2003/12/10

(submitted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 2:08pm

Since yesterday's announcement by Vice President Al Gore that he is endorsing Howard Dean, you have once again shown the strength of the greatest grassroots campaign of the modern era. Here's what you've done in the last 24 hours:
More than 7,000 Americans have joined your campaign, bringing the total to 527,320.)
______________________

Today on 12/22/03 the number of Americans for Dean is 543,455, an increase of 16,135 since the day after Gore's endorsement of Dean. That is an increase of 3%.

Al Gore's endorsement doesn't appear to be having the effect that he and Dean hoped for.

[Mairead]

3. Silence = consent

Why should we consent?

[CTLawGuy]

4. not attacking dean /= silence

Whats good about Kucinich? Why should people vote for Kucinich? THAT is what a campaign should be about, not about why the other guy is a jackass.

[LWolf]

8. I'm so glad you asked!

1. Proven, long-term record fighting for people, fighting against corporate control, opposing the Bush administration.

2. Universal not-for-profit health care for every American without exception.

3. Full employment, a living wage, and programs to lift people out of poverty.

4. Campaign finance reform, IRV, media reform, open debates.

5. Stepped in to hold Diebold accountable.

6. Economic Justice, Worker's rights, Social Security and Pension protection.

7. Strong supporter of environmentally friendly technology, opposes GMOs.

8. Best Education plan from preschool - college.

9. A champion for civil liberties

10. non-violence as an organizing principle for our society

11. Nobody buys him; he owes no one but the individual voters anything at all.

And so much more. Dennis is running on the issues. He has a better defined, more detailed plan than any other candidate for each issue, IMO. As the chair of the progressive caucus and the ranking democrat on the Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans. Affairs, and International Relations, he has a wealth of knowledge and experience to bring to the office. Please enjoy learning more about Congressman Kucinich at:

http://www.kucinich.us/

[helleborient]

20. Where's the campaign skill...?

I like DK...but his campaign has not proven to be able to get off the ground in over 6 months...we need to win.

[TLM]

28. Don't you understand the fact Kucinich hasn't taken the lead is your fault

All your fault.

If everybody would just get behind Kucinich, he'd be in the lead. SO it is not the fault of Kucinich that his shrill and smarmy style drive people off, or that his authoritarian left stance bothers even most liberals, or that his flip flop on abortion makes folks uncomfortable... no none of that is the reason.

The reason Kucinich is not winning is that the people are arrogantly not supporting him as they are obviously obligated to do.


Same with Clark… Clark would be winning if all those millions and millions of people supporting Dean like no democrat in history would just realize that we can not win unless we run a war hawk who was a republican 2 years ago.


If these folks honestly think that Dean can not win… why then do they need his supporters? I mean if Dean’s support is so insignificant and couldn’t possibly result in a victory for Dean… why then are these other folks so desperate to win over Dean supporters from Dean? The answer is because they know damn good and well that Dean is going to win, specifically because of the support base behind Dean that these folks are trying their hardest to discourage.

[LWolf]

46. equal media coverage

= a win for Dennis. There's a reason why he doesn't get it, and it isn't lack of interest or support on the part of actual voters. We may not be able to overcome mainstream media's determination to make him invisible; but if we do well in Iowa, it will get harder to pretend he's not viable. It isn't lack of skill. It's refusal to pander and staunch opposition to corporate control of America that is driving the press, or lack of it.

[HFishbine]

32. Tell you what

My states primary is in May. My primary vote probably won't matter, but you are right about Kucinich's positions. They most closely mirror mine. He just doesn't seem to be as effective a campaigner as some other candidates.

I'll tell you what though. If Kucinich is still in conention (not just still in the race, but in contention) by the time my primary rolls around, I'll vote for him.

[LWolf]

48. Thank you!

I can't ask for any better than that.

:toast:

[CTLawGuy]

37. hey thats great!

a lot of people still don't know about Kucinich. You should work hard to get his name out.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

57. Kucinich is a REAL Progressive not a "pretend" one THAT's what makes him

good.

[demnan]

5. No, not necessarily

it means they are being managed incorrectly, though. It also means they are acting desperately before the first vote is even cast.

All the candidates have something to offer. Just because I've chosen Dean doesn't mean I've lost sight of that fact.

[TexasSissy]

6. I don't like the negativity. But Dean has done his share of it, too.

Clark and Kucinich have seemed to stay out of the negativity territory. But all the others, incl. Dean, have partaken in the negativity campaigning. I'll be glad when the negativity part is over.

Paul what's-his-name on Crossfire even commented, after the last debate (and he was quite passionate about it, and loud) that the other candidates, in NOT going after Dean were being wimpy.

They probably feel that no matter what they do, they'll be criticized. And I think they're right about that.

[eileen from OH]

7. Well I hate it BUT. . .

it is also valuable prep for whoever wins the nomination. You think Bush & Co. are gonna go all positive in the general election? The one good thing about all this inter-party fighting is that hopefully anything that can get dragged out, will get dragged out now so that in the general election it will be old news.

eileen from OH (yes, I do look for a pony amidst the manure)

[stickdog]

50. It's valuable ammo for Rove is what it is.

"Even other Democrats think Dean is way out there."

Meanwhile, he's a mainstream Dem.

[LiberalBushFan]

9. should they just let Dean lie all he wants then?

Think about it, he can say whatever he wants to pump himself up no matter how false. The media doesn't want to call him on it until after he's nominated, and it's only fair for the other candidates to set things straight. Why should they have to compete against fake Dean as opposed to the real Dean?

[averagesammy]

11. Is Howard Dean Bill Clinton

Dean is Bill Clinton isn't he ? Slate.com is not my main news source but William Saletan's piece "Howard Dean triangulates the triangulator" http://slate.msn.com/id/2092895/ points out that Bill and Howerd said the same things almost word for word. We Loved Bill why do we not love Dean then ?

[jmaier]

15. In the early 1992

primary season it's pretty hard to say that "we all loved Bill." There was the usual nomination infighting, name calling, etc. It's part of the process. Nothing to get to out of sorts about.

[averagesammy]

35. That is true

we didn't just like Bill at that time but as time went on we did and Dean is saying the same things as to continue to move the country the same direction that Bill did. So why not cut the infighting and get behind Dean ?

I'm not totally behind Dean, just kinda wondering out loud. There are some in the race now that have less than no chance and their bitching doesn't help us to be a strong party. Remember Nader screwed us last time and may do it again. It only took a few hundred green votes in Florida to do it.

[newyawker99]

45. Hi averagesammy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[averagesammy]

53. Thanks and Hello

Hi to you newyawker99 and Thanks for the welcome. :)

[liberalnurse]

13. They can't sell themselves....thus

they have little to offer. Many are already proven failures or just lack experience. I enjoy the heck out of their *bush bashing!

Liberman, Gephardt are both proven failures.

Bashing Dean is all they have left. These anti-Dean candidates are doing Rove's work for him. Dean has demonstrated that this campaign is not like others before .....Since when was the current *president appointed by the Supreme Ct.? Never before. ....

All democrats must unite and fight back. Dean has the army and money. lets go get *bush.....Short and sweet.

[deutsey]

16. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Dean can't beat Bush

Well, if the other candidates are having so much trouble defining themselves as viable alternatives to Dean, how do they expect to beat Bush?

If people don't like how Dean allegedly plays the game rough, they ain't seen nothing yet if they were to go up against Bush.

[QC]

40. A candidate can be popular in the party and electoral poison outside it.

Democrats nominated William Jennings Bryan three times and he lost three times. Adlai Stevenson was nominated twice and lost twice. Barry Goldwater was wildly popular within the Republican Party and got an epic stomping in the general election. Mondale and Dukakis won the party nomination easily and lost big, in Mondale's case getting beaten in 49 states.

This is why the whole "if they can't beat Candidate X then how can they beat Bush" talking point is hooey. Lots of candidates have been popular in their party yet very unpopular with the public at large.

If people don't like how Dean allegedly plays the game rough, they ain't seen nothing yet if they were to go up against Bush.

The same also applies, don't you think, to DUers who have had to leave or "limit their time here" because they can't handle the attacks on their candidates? What happens here is a Junior League tea compared to what will come in the general election.

[bigtree]

17. They do

However I have heard Gov. Dean on the attack also. All of the candidates have taken pains to highlight the differences between their positions.

Will that strategy against Bush be labeled as attacks? Probably. Bush::cry:

Too bad. That's what you do in a campaign. I'm frankly concerned that you do not give these candidates credit for all of the positions they have put foward so far that do what you want. Mostly all of my candidate's site and most of his statements have promoted his views and his positions on the issues against Bush.

[He loved Big Brother]

18. "Do the constant attacks mean these candidates have nothing to offer?"

Seems like it to me. See my sig.

[helleborient]

19. Kerry and Clark both trending downward in polls...Gephardt and Lieberman

Are the only ones besides Dean who seem to be holding their own.

And they are just holding their own...

I want a candidate who can capture the attention and affection of everyday voters and keep it...so far Dean is the ONLY candidate who shows any real indication of that.

[poskonig]

23. No.

I do agree that the other campaigns should play ball on **their** issues and not Dean's.

[Scott Lee]

24. I'm utterly fascinated by those who want a less popular candidate

to run against Bush-hole. Think of what this actually means.

If you weree the coach of a sports team and desperately needed a win, would you play your BEST players, or your worst players?

If competing in a foot race, would you put a sack on and try to hop to keep up?

If a swimming race, would you tie a cement block to one foot?

This makes absolutely no sense, yet the Dean opponents continually hammer this theme of pushing lesser candidates against a formidable GOP race. Boggles the mind.

[TLM]

29. Exactly.... I think the problem is that some folks think

that popularity is bad.

Dean is doing better than any democrat ever.... let me say that again, BETTER THAN ANY DEMOCRAT EVER!

Yet people want to push the meme that he can't win and that we should instead support a guy who is losing to Dean.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

31. It's a popularity contest now?

Go American Idol!

TWL

[JVS]

33. Popularity is a good thing in elections

[edzontar]

51. Winning primaries IS a popularity contest...

I love Dennis K, but he has not run a very good campaign.

He was a long-shot to begin with, but he couldhave galvanized supprt via the debates.

Hasn't happened yet.

Dean has dome the best job as a CANDIDATE so far.

And that is surely worth something.

[RetroLounge]

27. I wouldn't say they have nothing to offer...

but obviously, not as much, or they would be leading.

[TLM]

30. If Kerry and Clark had been attacking Bush as hard as they attack Dean

back when it counted... they'd be in the lead now, and not Dean.


However Clark was afraid to even say he was a dem... as it might cut into his speaker fees at Republican fundraisers. And Kerry had his nose so far up Bush's butt that he could smell W's breath.

Back at the end of 2002 and start of 2003 Dean & Kucinich were the only ones really standing up to Bush. THat's why they're my number 1 and number 2.

[Larkspur]

34. In a crowded field, the contenders have to tell voters why to vote for

them over the other guy and part of that means pointing out the differences. Dean did that with his famouns speech "Why are Democrats supporting Pres. Bush's unilateral war against Iraq?..." That was a fair attack on his Dem opponents because many of them did vote for Bush's war without asking the tough questions that should have been asked beforehand.

What's unfair is intentionally distorting or misusing quotes and statements that are a decade old. People do change and politicians can learn from mistakes and move on. Dean kept most of his attacks against his opponents on stuff done since the 2000 election and that is fair game. Dean also was challenging the leadership or lack thereof of our Dem party, and considering the debacle of 2002, the current crop of Dem leaders, who orchestrated that election, are a sorry lot and deserved the stern rebuke Dean gave them. From personal viewpoint, Dean was echoing in that March Sacremento speech what I would have told the Dem leaders.

[neverforget]

39. You make it sound like Dean has already won something.

IF Dean is the nominee, the "constant attacks" from other Democrats will be nothing compared to what Rove has in store for Dean.

[QC]

43. But haven't you heard? We're supposed to cancel the primaries now!

Gallup, the corporate media, campaign contributors, and Al Gore have spoken!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/uclicktext/20031211/cm_ucru/canceltheprimaries

[jonnyblitz]

47. I believe Clark can beat him and I don't understand why he isnt

beating him already. Hopefully he gets more press coverage because I believe he might be what many are looking for and people need to know about him as an option. I say this in spite of whether I personally support him or not.

[FrenchieCat]

52. Because the

Media whores and the GOP won't let any other candidate get much air time. Dean sucks all of the air out of a room...unfortunately, i'ts just Hot air....and nothing based on substance.

[ozone_man]

54. They are like Cinderella's jealous sisters

trying to fit into that glass slipper, but can't do it. Only Dean can fit into it. The "slipper" is the taking back of the democratic party and restoring democracy to the republic.

[jpgpenn]

55. Did you watch and election i missed?

where have you seen votes cast?

[arewethereyet]

59. Dean's doing a fine job of sinking himself

I think the others just can't beleive their ears.