BBV - how bad is it ........ really?

[Stinky The Clown]

I find myself largely in agreement with the notion that the outcome of the last presidential election was a direct result of nefarious, criminal voting fraud made possible by electronic voting machines. Old fashioned voter intimidation and other more mundane methods of vote suppression were also at work. In thinking this, I do not see myself sporting even a hint of tin foil on my hairless old head. The evidence is pretty strong, even though no smoking gun has yet appeared. Until we have fair and verifiable voting, our very democracy is in jeopardy.

Having said all that, I also have to wonder how bad off we really are - right now.

Here are my personal views:

I think we still have a chance - even in the presence of the same highly unreliable voting system - to take back one or both houses of our national government in the 2006 cycle, and also to make big gains in local offices. Where the presidential election only requires a very targeted manipulation in a very few voting districts to turn the electoral college, the local elections are fought on a district by district basis. And in most of those districts there's still a relatively robust voting process that is verifiable. Further, in that these districts are local, local folks are there - on the ground - watching the process. Names are more likely to be named, and fingers are more likely to be accurately pointed, in any contested election. In short, it is far more difficult to steal 435 separate elections for the House and even more difficult to steal the thousands and thousands of local office elections.

I'm not holding any of this out as fact. It is simply my personal opinion. And I am open to have my view changed. The fact is, while these are my opinions, in the end, I have no idea where we really stand. :shrug:

I'd really like to hear the views of others on this. I'm hoping this can be a thoughtful discussion, with drive by posts (like I'm as guilty of as anyone) adding what they normally add ... nothing.

[PurityOfEssence]

1. Unverifiable voting is the greatest danger to the world now

It's not just a domestic issue, because our imperial tamperings are out to fuck with much of the rest of the world.

They stole the '02 election in Georgia, and did it so blatantly that they had to dissolve the VNS to cover their tracks. Where there was a paper trail in the '04 election, exit polling was within a point of accuracy; where there was none, it was off by 4 or so points (much more in selected areas) and ALWAYS in favor of Junior. This is simply impossible by any statistical measure.

Profit is our god in this country, and source code is thus more important to protect than the sanctity of a fair plebiscite. The long-term effects are disastrous: demoralization at the perceived hopelessness of fighting against selfish greedheads, and the cynical distrust of a rigged system that will create scofflaws and the general breakdown of communal involvement with government. Once people give up on government, the glue of a pluralist society is gone. That's good news for the corporatists: fragmentation always works to the benefit of the powerful.

Given a chance, people will send these thugs packing, but that given doesn't seem to be in the offing. For all the hoopla about paperless voting, NOTHING was done before the '04 election; since the election wasn't close enough to really plumb this issue, it's effectively gone from the minds of most of the few who were even aware of it.

It is THE most important issue, yet NOTHING is being done about it.

Once the judiciary is locked up and delivered--for life terms--it's just a merry skip and a jump to total monarchy and theocracy.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. I don't disagree with your longer term view of where this *could* go ...

.... but I'm wondering about the present. Assuming nothing about the 'machinery' is changed from the '04 cycle, is there a reason to be hopeful for a favorable outcome in '06 ..... pretty much along the lines I posit in my orginal post?

[PurityOfEssence]

8. Not really, and I wasn't intimating that there would be

The one glimmer is the sheer size of the House of Representatives: it's a hell of a lot easier to skew voting to cleave favorably along the fault lines of the electoral college in a presidential race, but with 435 people up for re-election, there's room for some reality to come into play.

Having said that, of course, the issue is to be decided in red areas, and many of those are already compromised with fixed machines. This coup d'etat is largely a fait accompli (just to gaul the right with frenchy terms...) and I don't see it being addressed. There was no outcry after '02 or '04 on the subject, and the media blithely covers it up. Another couple of cycles of victories for the nazis--even though they've only been marginal ones lately--will seal our fate. It's the heart of America: profit is more important than ANYTHING; just look at our health care system.

There are plenty of avenues of attack for the left, we only have to take them. Why is the cost of malpractice insurance the fault of lawyers? Why isn't it the fault of the insurers who do it for profit and use it as a cash cow to offset losses elsewhere? Rich people bitch about subsidizing the poor, but nobody mentions how the poor and working class subsidize the rich. Why should a security guard support the SEC, OPIC, the FDIC, the FSLIC or bailouts of hedge funds? Taxation should be addressed as billing for services rendered, not as punishment. Nobody wants to say that, either. Nobody wants to address poverty, because the right has demonized the left by saying that any remedies for this will come out of the pockets of the working- and middle-class. It's just like the anti affirmative action racism.

The Dems also have to wake up and fight against the class warfare of the selfish: they have to call them haters of the weak and poor, and they have to call them torture-lovers and greedheads. Playing "nice" will fail, and not raising the economic issues of the hereditary rich enslaving us all for gluttonous self-interest is something we can't fear. The Horatio Alger dream of getting rich someday is habitually used to keep the downtrodden from EVER wanting the rich to pay their own way, and it's constantly painted as punishing the successful and hardworking people. That lie has to be dispelled, and it has to be done so frontally. I seriously doubt there are politicians with the intestinal fortitude to do such things; the Dems have been cowed to such a degree that they won't even accept the label of "liberal" in broad daylight.

Republicans have no qualms about calling war heroes traitors, and this helps them win. We need to call them con-men, thugs, criminals, selfish dicks and oblivious idiots who are tearing society apart by crushing the middle class. Can we? Will we?

Horatio Alger died broke, by the way.

[leftofthedial]

2. there will never be another fair election

until we drum these criminals and their rigged slot machines out of our elections

[peacetalksforall]

3. We must go to all paper. We must throw out the Republican owned

voting machines. We must count by hand. We must arrange a perfect vote count transmission. We must not allow corporate propagand networks predict or call elections. We must build a government owned machine with oversight by extremely qualified citizens.

Until then we are NOT going to take back anything or any seats or any judges....unless 'they give' us some token positions for people like Z Miller or any of the other leaders who love the Repub thieves and lobbyists.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. So are you saying there's no hope whatever of a gain for us in '06?

I'm not trying to fight with you ..... I'm trying to understand. I don't disagree with your view of our potential future. My question was about today, right here in Realityville. Is there a reason to think that we can make gains in '06? As of today, the majority of votes are counted on non BBV - if my understanding of the reality is correct. And even where BBV is in place, I'm hopeful that closer scrutinty, coupled with the outrage on our side, will cause anything even slightly "off" to be challenged - and challenged successful because it is all, on a local bais, more up close and personal.

Once we get back even a modicum power, we work toward a longer term reform ... and I agree completely with you .... government owned, open source code BBV with paper. Electronic voting isn't wrong. But the current implementation is horrible - at best.

[oscar111]

6. Canadian method: no machines in sight

of any sort.

Like all other "democracies" so called. Well, they are more so than we currently are.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Again, no disagreement, but that wasn't really my original question

My original question was about our chances to overcome the regime *given no changes* in the current mixed system we have - which is everything from cigar boxes to sophisticated, private coded vote stealers.

[peacetalksforall]

9. I don't think it's possible...look at how Kerry and Edwards, their wives,

children, and volunteers worked. Why did they work so hard?

The arrogance of thievery that has been going on for nearly six years (maybe more) isn't going to stop if Dem leaders, citizens, journalists,and the media don't care by not doing or saying anything. Do you call all our leaders and the media enablers or accomplices?

The most outrageous deficiency is from Dem politicians. How could they not know that Republican voting machines were rigged after 2000 - they had four years to do something and they didn't. We only have Conyers et al, Independent leaders, Green Party leaders, and Kucinich saying much. Dean went quiet. Sharpton never says anything. The Clintons don't peep. Forget about the DLC. They don't care

Our vote - our most precious possession - stolen and people are looking down at their socks avoiding eye contact.

[peacetalksforall]

10. Paper - for now and maybe keep on going - IF - we find that some

cittizens of our country are still cheating with paper. If it seems we must accelerate the count and we need machines, they must be made by the citizens's government i.e., of the people - by the people -for the people.

Never again can we have republican corporate made machines - by the republican corporations-of the republican corporations - for the republican corporations.

In the meantime we must prove what we know about the thefts.

[flpoljunkie]

11. Read this prescient op-ed from Avi Rubin just days before the '04 election

http://www.avirubin.com/vote/op-ed.html

Op/Ed page

An Election Day clouded by doubt

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.voting27oct27,1,595879.story

By Avi Rubin

Originally published October 27, 2004

ABOUT 50 MILLION Americans will cast their ballots for president on touch-screen terminals Tuesday.

If my experience as an election judge is any guide, voters will love these machines, which are generally easy to use and which easily accommodate voters who have disabilities or do not speak English. And if my experience as a computer scientist is any guide, those voters will not realize just how dangerous it is to rely on these machines to conduct a free and fair election with a reliable result.

Voting on a direct recording electronic voting machine, or DRE, is in many ways similar to transferring money from one account to another at an automated teller machine. But there is one critically important difference: no receipt. There will be no physical record produced that could later be used by your local election board to prove how you intended to vote.

After you cast your ballot on a DRE, the only official record of your choices will be the electronic record within the system itself. You will not be asked to look at a piece of paper that confirms your candidate selections. You will not leave that piece of paper behind for use in case of a recount.

Why is this a problem?

Without paper ballots that can be physically examined, the only recount possible is a review of the votes recorded by the DRE system itself. And if those votes were recorded incorrectly, no recount will fix the error. The incorrect result could never be detected, much less corrected.

more...

[BeFree]

12. No Chance

In 2000 the pukes screwed up. There were paper ballots then, and it took a lot of other shenanigans for them to finally steal the election.

2002 they perfected things a bit, and by 2004 they pretty well nailed it.

What makes anyone think they are gonna quit, now that they are way ahead?

We don't stand a chance as long as 80% of the vote is counted by just two or three private, secretive, republican owned companies. Not a chance.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Is it really 80% ?

[IdaBriggs]

14. Yes. nt

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Link?

[IdaBriggs]

16. This information is available all over the web.

You can go to www.commondreams.org and do a search; you can go to www.votersunite.org; you can go to Yahoo or Google or any one of the tons of websites -- and where, you may ask, did THEY get the information?

Go to the CORPORATE websites for the two companies -- I received quite an eyeful of education simply by perusing the Diebold website. You see, these folks are PROUD of the numbers they command -- and the fact they are used all over the world is viewed by some as a positive. Of course, when they were put into use in selected countries in South America (Brazil for example), and the number one question by the "election officials" was how easy it is to "fix" an election -- that isn't something they advertise as much. The answer, by the way, is EASY.

Go to Chuck Herrin's website (used to be in my favorites, but lost when I had a hard drive problem) for a Step by Step "How To" guide for "fixing" an election. You can even download a copy of the software. Allow me to assure you as a Microsoft Access Developer that he is indeed correct; a third grader can hack the election system.