Clark supporters and Dean supporters need to unite for honest primaries

[KaraokeKarlton]

We have had our differences and we disagree on plenty of issues. But the one thing we have in common is that our campaigns are "Outsider" campaigns. We also both benefit from honest primaries. There were forces in play in Iowa that stymied Dean. Push polling against him, bogus caucus locations being provided by the party insiders who post the locations for the public, pre-planned coalitions to benefit the Insiders to name a few. Just as it happened to us, it could happen to you. We all need to be on the look out for dirty tricks from the Insiders and keep each other informed on any signs we see of these sort of antics coming into play. The media and the Insiders are working together to try to stop both of our campaigns. We can't let them do it. So, I propose that we agree here and now to give each other the heads up at the first sign of dirty play we might see going on throughout the primaries.

Who is with me?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. I'm With You 100% (eom)

DTH

[blm]

18. You read the TAP article. Now you believe Iowa was dirty tricks?

You have me confused now.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

35. Where Did I Say Iowa Was Dirty Tricks?

All I'm saying is that I'm fully on board with the notion that we should be on the lookout for dirty tricks.

DTH

[blm]

56. KK is saying there were dirty tricks in Iowa.

I knew you read the TAP article, and had a clear picture of the hard work that went into Kerry's victory there.

I took your reply to mean that you agreed with the overall notion that Iowa was the result of dirty moves.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

59. Can someone post the Tap article?

n/t

[Jack_Dawson]

2. I'm with ye!

:toast:

[bicentennial_baby]

3. I tend to agree

I think I'm ready to put all of this past bullshit behind us. The picture is becoming clearer now, and I think we would be well served by a united front.

:toast:

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. Here's one bit of advice for Clark supporters

Don't pay attention to NH polls. They are polling mostly Democrats, The truth about NH is that Independents are the voting majority. They can vote in the primaries and usually have a solid turnout and end up deciding the elections in NH. Dean and Clark are the most popular with the Independents in NH, and I suspect our guys will come in number one and two as a result.

[slinkerwink]

9. exactly! Clark and Dean do poll well among Independents....and

the Independents tend to turn out in heavier numbers during primaries.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. That's exactly what I've been thinking

I was wondering about the Independent vote in NH. I figured they were'nt being polled very much, and I know Clark and Dean both have a lot of Independent support...including you and I, if I remember correctly ;-)

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. Yes, I'm an Independent too

NH Democrats make up only about 26% of NH voters. Independents are around 40%. Republican is higher than Democrats but a little lower than Independents. According to the newest polls, NH support is starting to level out more evenly between Dean, Clark, Kerry and Edwards, with Lieberman having a decent showing as well. With Dean and Clark dominating with Independents, who outnumber Democrats, it doesn't bode well for the Insiders at all. Now, who do you think was making those calls to the Independent voters of NH telling them they can't vote? It smells like a Washington Insider dirty trick to me. It certainly didn't come from either of our campaigns when we stand to gain the most from those votes!

[JI7]

4. clark or dean can drop out and endorse the other

do you think one should drop out and endorse the other and be united as the anti war candidates ? combined they can easily win new hampshire.

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. As if...I'm not suggesting we unite behind one of the two

We all like our candidate, support him and that's not going to change. What is going to change, however, is the ability for the corrupt insiders to play their dirty little games, because we're going to be watching like hawks from here on out and expose every little nasty ploy for what it is. Count on it!

[mitchum]

25. But isn't it a "dirty little game" for a self identified Idendependant...

to be advocating the derailment of the Democratic front runner?

[democratreformed]

27. Uniting as one force to expose corruption

or deception is hardly a "derailment" effort.
In my opinion, it is exactly what we, as a party need - to be united to present the "facts" and the truth.

[KaraokeKarlton]

29. I'm advocating uniting to ensure honest primaries

The only way that can "derail the frontrunner" is if the frontrunner is using corrupt and dirty methods to cheat voters out of their voice.

[sistersofmercy]

37. Bingo!

I've seen a supporter of another candidate claim that a Kerry supporter kicked his own dog in order to slam the door in his/her face. I got a good chuckle about that one.

[bearfartinthewoods]

38. no.. you are just suggesting that the other candidates are corrupt.

what a fucking crock.....anything to try an whoop up support for two flagging cndidates. smearing the campaigns of DK, Kerry and Edwards is the only hope you have?

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. I don't really include DK with the other "Insiders"

And his supporters should be watching closely too. Listen, Clark and Dean have the bulk of the support of the Independents in NH. Someone from a campaign was calling registered Independents trying to tell them that they can't vote in the primary, which is a lie. The only candidates who would benefit from Independents staying home would be Kerry, Edwards and Lieberman, to a lesser extent. Whoever was making these calls tried to imply the Dean campaign was behind it. These are the kinds of dirty tricks I'm talking about, and we all know politics is a damn dirty game. I, for one, am sick of it and am NOT going to take it anymore. I want people watching closely so any attempt at being corrupt is exposed immediately. You can think whatever you want, I honestly don't care. But what I do care about is having HONEST primaries where the voice of the people is heard loud and clear.

[bearfartinthewoods]

44. still your post, by excluding other than dean and clark people

implies that if any supportrs of other candidates heard of anything shady they wouldn't speak up. you are painting all supporters of kerry and edwards and lieberman with a pretty broad brush by excluding them in this corruption alert.

[mitchum]

45. Yogi is not the only one "smarter than the average bear"

Excellent points

[JohnKleeb]

47. can't we all unite for honest primaries

Thats all I ask.

[maddezmom]

48. sure, I'll unite for honest primaries :) n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

49. That's all we're talking about

Just keeping an eye out for nasty stuff on the horizon...

[maddezmom]

51. ok...gotcha

;)

[KaraokeKarlton]

46. I suggested this between Clark and Dean supporters simply because

Our guys are the main targets of the dirty tactics that have been employed so far. Clearly if others want to watch and share the info, they're more than welcome to do so. I just don't think the supporters of the other candidates have as much of a reason to want to stop dirty tricks because it's Dean and Clark who are hurt most by them.

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my first post. And no, I certainly wouldn't blame the supporters of any candidate for the behavior of their candidate's staffers. There is some things I'm hearing that imply there are some dirty tricks being played, and I want to minimize any impact they have on the primaries. That's all this thread is about.

[joefree1]

6. Link please

"There were forces in play in Iowa that stymied Dean."

I'm for shaking up the Democratic party elite.

[KaraokeKarlton]

12. I don't have a link handy, but I'm guessing someone does

Anybody?

I'll see what I can come up with. I've seen first hand comments from people who were on the ground in Iowa. I haven't seen anything in the media...which is no big surprise. The Insiders are trying to fix the primaries to block the Outsiders, and we are NOT going to sit idly by and let them do it.

Power to the PEOPLE!

[SadEagle]

24. Here, just a blog post, though.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/1/23/225746/083/92/

Summary: In a couple of key counties, the lists of caucus locations produces by the Democratic party and printed in newspapers, etc., was highly incorrect; the list was used by the Dean campaign to give people out caucus locations, while the Gephardt campaign used some other source. When the problems were discovered, the party and newspapers were notified to fix it, but they didn't; on the caucus day, many Dean "1s" did not make it, likely because they could not be told the proper location in time. Also a bit on Kerry's attacks on Dean

edit: add summary

[AntiCoup2K4]

63. Is this for real? Who the fuck was producing these caucus lists?

Katherine Harris??

[slinkerwink]

7. I'm with you! That Kerry flyer against Dean/Clark pushed me over the edge!

[bicentennial_baby]

11. Yep

and by the way, what a crappy looking flyer, regardless of content. Blech! ;-)

[Zomby Woof]

26. how is this different from the nasty Dean fliers?

All the Dean supporters denied he was behind negative fliers about Clark.

They attributed them to zealous supporters, and maybe this is the same, no?

This forum cracks me up to no end. :D

[maddezmom]

33. ummm

those are my thoughts, I'm not going to unite with any other campaign until the nomination is decided. I have a long memory. :)

[KaraokeKarlton]

36. This isn't about uniting behind a candidate, it's uniting for the process

and making sure it works the way it's supposed to. There's no reason why we can't do that while still supporting our guy.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. Weren't you defending Kucinich selling out to Edwards?

Perhaps Clark and Dean supporters realize that sometimes it's better to work together for the greater good, even if they don't agree on who to vote for. We want to have honest primaries because it benefits both of our campaigns. It could also benefit yours as well. Kucinich may be an Insider, but his campaign certainly isn't treated like one. As far as I'm concerned, Kucinich supporters are welcome to join in keeping a watchful eye on the process to make sure it's honest, too.

[newsguyatl]

13. i absolutely agree

clark and dean camps have more in common than we've all realized...


and a LOT of shit went down in iowa that hasn't come out yet, that benefited kerry and edwards, ad yes, even gephardt...



all of our eyes need to wide open going in to new hampshire...

[bicentennial_baby]

15. Rock on!

:pals: :yourock:

[mitchum]

14. Well, why didn't all of you bitter "outsiders" form a 3rd party...

if the fix was already in?
Tsk, tsk...

[oasis]

30. A cloak 'n dagger operation by the Clintons. But wait, Clark's their guy.

:eyes:

[AntiCoup2K4]

64. Better yet, why don't we kick the Republican shitbags out of OUR party..

..and go back to being Democrats?? And yes, I mean the DLC. Their filthy hands are all over this.

[lastknowngood]

16. Yea and as a ticket

if they work together they can save this joke of a primary

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. I think it's much too early to talk about that

First things first...we need to NOT let the Insiders steal the nomination from the American people with their dirty tricks. There's plenty of time to talk about ticket options down the road.

[DinahMoeHum]

20. I'm with you, but please, no "third-party" BS if neither candidate

gets the nomination.

Anybody But Bush/Cheney in 2004.

We can argue about "ideological purity" some other time. Right now is NOT that time.

Eyes on the prize.


:kick:

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Oh, that's a totally separate issue

This post is about doing everything in our power to make SURE that these primaries are honest and free of corruption. We don't need to talk about joining on one ticket or ABB. Let's just keep the race honest and let the people decide who they want and protect their voice from the typical king making insider games.

[progressivebydesign]

21. I will consider that idea... you may be right!

They are considered the outsiders. Let me think about this.. I had originally been a Dean then Clark person.. then I wavered on that second choice. I'm wavering back toward Clark for various reasons.. but Dean is my #1 guy!

[BeyondGeography]

22. Totally on board

I've been thinking about running a Clark/Dean unity post. If this race gets away from both of these guys, I would seriously urge these campaigns to join forces.

Why? Because mentally lazy pundits and media whores need to be put in their place once or twice a century. And this party needs all the energy it can get. Kerry/Edwards is politics as usual. Decent guys, very skilled, blah, blah, blah.

Clark and Dean compliment each other very well, in terms of their relative expertise, their passion for change and the revulsion they cause to the establishment. We need to keep these campaigns strong and vibrant. If it takes joining forces, I'm all for it.

NOTE: This is for Democratic primary purposes only. No 3rd party BS here.

[KaraokeKarlton]

28. Again, there's plenty of time to consider joining forces later

But right now we really need to do everything in our power to ensure that we have honest, fair and clean primaries. Let the voters decide who they want and if it's either Dean or Clark then we could all send a petition to whichever guy asking for the other for the VP. At this point, though, I think it's really counterproductive to tout either Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean simply because we ALL want OUR guy to win.

[bowens43]

31. No thanks.

I have no intention of helping Clark take the nomination from the Democrats.

[Jerseycoa]

60. That would be "win" the nomination OF the Democrats

I'm sure that is what you meant to say, so I won't do anything with the apparent implication, which is against the rules. :)

[Bonobo]

32. I'm with you!

Very nice appeal. Let's be pals!

[WatchWhatISay]

39. Your idea has some merit

The question is how would we transform this from a DU idea to getting the media to get the idea "out there". That would counteract everything they have been working on for the past few weeks (months?).

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. The blogs would be the best way to spread the word

Clark supporters could suggest it to other Clark supporters and Dean supporters to other Dean supporters.

Remember, this isn't about agreeing on issues or supporting both candidates or teaming up for one ticket. This is ONLY about making sure that the process stays honest and isn't corrupt in any way and keeping the line of communication open if we see dirty tricks and get the word out FAST. For instance, there are already problems popping up in New Mexico. Check this out:

http://kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=7981&cat=HOME

[FreeperSlayer]

ABB!

Bush Out!!!

[Fleshdancer]

40. I'm a sucker for an outsider!

It's sometimes hard to admit on DU after the months of arguing, but I like Dean and Clark. I would love to see them on the same ticket...I don't care about what order. Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean. They balance each other out so damn well.

If, heaven forbid, Dean falls out of this race (and no, I don't see it happening anytime soon) I think Clark's campaign is the only one prepared to pick up the massive grassroots effort and run with it. This is a VERY important issue and I wonder if the other campaigns have even been thinking about it.

Love or hate Dean, you can't deny the power of his grassroots campaign for the important GOTV efforts.

[shance]

43. Dynamic Duo***

is what they are,

or what they COULD be.

Individuals I talk to who are involved somewhat in politics believe that Dean and Clark, or Clark and Dean, would be a landslide for Dems.

The Republicans would have to pack....they wouldnt stand a chance, unless Wally O Dell and the BBV Supremes are still allowed to doll out the electronic nightmare machines.**

Thats the issue that has to be dealt with.

[jonnyblitz]

50. I have no interest in Clark.

count me out.

[Namvet04]

66. I agree - Dean is on his way back up, why join clark on the way down

I think the 3 top leaders (dean,kerry and edwards) is great to pick from. Clark the rookie can be humble, gain some experience and show us later that he is loyal. I do not trust people who come into our camp and we have not had time to check them out. The little I have done should make most on here upset. Seems most everyone is against bush and yet here are some saying vote for a guy that has been pro-bush and pro-war. Amazing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

52. Wow, KK...

I'm impressed. ;) Heads up on a dirty play I saw the other night and has gone virtually IGNORED. A Kerry campaign worker was on Hardball Thursday evening and Tweety asked him why they were attacking Clark for having a job as a lobbyist and the Kerry guy said..."Well, just check into Acxiom and The Stephens Group and you will see why." That was right before the debate. Then, surprise, surprise a question is asked of Clark about Acxiom. Coincidence? I don't think so. In fact, I'm beginning to think that the DNC is behind this too. WHY would they have our Democrats debate on FAUX NEWS? I cannot figure that out for the life of me. Since "I" know why they SHOULDN'T have had a debate on FAUX NEWS, I must assume the DNC knew what was going to happen. They LET it happen. JMCPO

Yeah, I'm with you. I've had enough of this crap. Kerry and Edwards are the "chosen" candidates by the Washington insiders and the DNC and we HAVE to take control...We The People! Just remember people...Kerry and Edwards BOTH voted for the Patriot Act AND the IWR!!! Come on! These are NOT the people we want running our country! Kerry and Edwards BOTH say that taking Saddam out was the right thing to do! Come on! No it was not the right thing to do! It was WRONG!!!

[KaraokeKarlton]

53. Well my personal feelings about Clark hasn't changed

But the fact of the matter is this...I sincerely believe that there are some dubious forces at play that I'm such plain sick of going on. Elections are for the people to decide who they want leading for them. I happen to think the best choice is Dean since I lived under his leadership and am far better off as a result. You have your reasons for supporting Clark. Anytime dirty tricks are employed by the powers that be...we, the people of this country are the ones hurt by it. No more! We might not be able to agree on a candidate, but I think we can sure as hell agree that it should be the VOTERS who decide who that candidate will be, and NOT the power brokers who are more concerned about how they benefit personally than how the country does. If both Clark and Dean supporters make the effort to expose the dirtiness we see going on, it's a victory for the Democratic process and the people of this country. And ultimately, that's what my proposal is all about.

[AntiCoup2K4]

65. Not to disrupt the unity, but I gotta be honest here...

That picture's freakin me out :scared:

[Zinnola]

54. I am with you KK

As a Dean supporter first, but seeing how Clark is getting the dirty media tricks and Kerry/Edwards unscathed, I think a unity thread is in order.

[bicentennial_baby]

55. Kick for the late day crowd

:kick:

[MODemocrat]

57. Right here!! I'm with you because you're right on the money

Actually, I've been thinking that Dick Gephardt was just in the race to help bring Howard Dean down, and especially so when he dropped out so quickly. Together we can win, and there would be no better ticket
than Clark/Dean.

[Walt Starr]

58. My vote is transferable and Clark tops my list of potentials

I would take Clark any day over Kerry. Hands down no problem.

If for some reason Dean dropped out today, I'd be sporting a Clark avatar.

[Quixote1818]

61. We need to start a website Who could do this?

[CabalBuster]

62. United we win (kick) n/t

[bitchkitty]

67. Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa!

Sounds like an excellent strategy to me.

Clark supporters - I am sorry for the bitchy way I have behaved toward many of you and am heartily ashamed. Please forgive me, or at least wait until after the primary to kick my ass! ;)

[bicentennial_baby]

68. Forgiven

We need a united front.

[LiberalBushFan]

77. You have inspired me

and I would like to extend my apology to Dean supporters as well for my past behaviors. While we were arguing about which of our candidates was the real outsider we let a real insider get ahead of us. Let's work to make Clark or Dean the frontrunner, and once we succeed, we must work to stay united and not start fighting each other again!

[bicentennial_baby]

69. Kick for the Sunday crowd

:kick:

[bicentennial_baby]

70. Kick

:kick:

[Lexingtonian]

71. How about

you folks call up the tracking poll unit of your campaign and get some honest answers about what numbers your candidate is actually getting and reasonably expects?

Although a conspiracy theory can be constructed to explain any inconvenient fact retroactively, life might be a little easier with fewer of them.

[hellhathnofury]

72. I'm for it.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

73. Honesty..."Only Dean opposed the war from the start"

I'll trade you 2 'honesties' for 3 'misrepresentations of truth'?

TWL

[slinkerwink]

74. I'm with you!

[snyttri]

75. The more e-mails the media get about dirty tricks the better.

[Andromeda]

76. Count me in, KK...

:kick: