Poll and secondary question for non-DK supporters

[diamondsoul]

Poll question, What is your reason for not supporting Kucinich?

Now the secondary question is for those who prefer Kucinich's platform but see him as unelectable, no matter the reason-

If everyone who preferred Kucinich supported him and he still missed getting the nomination, would you view the Nominee as a stronger candidate?

Expansion forthcoming after I see a bit of result from the poll.

[Walt Starr]

1. I would support Kucinich in a heartbeat

If I actually thought he could beat Bush.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Exactly the same.

I think Dennis is the best candidate in the field, but is one of the least likely to be nominated whether I support him or not.

[corporatewhore]

52. Hes won in OHIO which is not like Vermont

ohio is full of reagan dems whereas vermont is a liberal stronghold think about that for a second kucinich can also get the military/family vote because he will bring em' home and kucinich can get the green labor and libertarian hell even my anarchist friends who dont vote out of princepal said the would vote for him because of his stance on free trade

[Piperay]

75. Those are my feelings too

I just don't think he would stand a chance of getting elected. :-(

[DebJ]

2. I love Dennis. I really really love him. He is without doubt the most

truthful, concerned, good-hearted and passionate man in this country. Please tell me he has not given up his seat in the House to run for President? We really need good men in the Congress. One thing I have found odd in the press is that so much focus has been on Dean for being angry, or emotional, but no one mentions Kucinich, who is triple the emotional displays of Dean. I guess because the press has refused to even give him hardly any notice at all. They simply dismiss him. But I love Dennis.

[Eric J in MN]

18. No, Dennis Kucinich is running for re-election to Congress in 2004 (nt)

nt

[wryter2000]

3. I love Kucinich

But I think he's so decent that the GOP would tear him to ribbons in the general election. I don't think he could pull off the killer instinct to fight back effectively.

I know this boils down to "electability," but that's become such a cliche that it doesn't really mean anything.

However, should DK get the nomination, I'll support him with my vote and my money and anything else I can do to help.

[DjTj]

4. His platform...

...is unelectable.

The American public is not ready for such a dramatic move towards socialism. We need to do it one step at a time.

[youngred]

24. Socialism?

or sensible policy?

[Mass_Liberal]

43. socialism IS

sensible policy. Democratic socialism.

[youngred]

45. I won't disagree

as a socailist

But they're claiming that Dennis is a socialist (which he isn't) and associating it with a negative stigma (that is undeserved)

[no name no slogan]

54. His platform is MAINSTREAM-- but the media won't tell you that.

Over 70% of Americans prefer a universal single-payer healthcare system sponsored by the government. Even 50% of REPUBLICANS favor this.

Most Americans also believe corporate America has too much control over our lives. They believe that corporations need to be reigned in, and their abuses need to be STOPPED.

Most Americans also approve of cutting waste in the Pentagon budget-- yet only DK is the only Democrat who is committed to cutting it.

Most Americans agree that NAFTA and the WTO have been detrimental to our economy. Only DK is advocating our withdrawal from both of these flawed arrangements.

If you really want to know more, check out Jim Hightower's "Thieves in High Places" book-- he's got a whole chapter of reputable studies that back up what I've said above.

[Cascadian]

63. Kucinich is not a socialist.

He is one of the few Democrats that is still keeping the Roosevelt-Truman style progressivism alive within the Democratic Party. That is not socialism. It is progressivism.


John

[diamondsoul]

5. Come on folks! I have a path of dicussion

I've never seen covered here and I'd really like to try it now. Need responses! LOL

[spooky3]

6. why not go ahead with it now?

[FloridaPat]

7. I think he's great. He has high moral values and ethics and

puts action behind his words, unlike about 95% of the US population. He did a good job of trying to stop the republicans, which again is more than 90% of the Democrats in congress has done in the last 3 years.

[Terwilliger]

8. kick

now you have a tough question where people have to think...you'll get less response than that other thread

Ask Uly

[sandnsea]

9. It's not that simple

He's not electable because his platform won't work. He talks about wanting inspectors back in Iraq, but just doesn't seem to understand that sometimes these things have to be backed up by a threat of force. He wants to spend money on single payer and alot of other programs, but just doesn't understand that most Americans still won't support this. He just doesn't seem to present as a person that fully understands that peace doesn't always work and some people just don't want to depend on the government for anything.

I support John Kerry because I have an 18 year old son. He is the only one that I trust my son's life with and in the end, that's what this election is coming down to for me.

[MMT]

107. How can you say this?

"He wants to spend money on single payer ... but just doesn't understand that most Americans still won't support this.

How can you say that when EVERY poll in the past 10 years or more says that 70% of Americans DO support single payer?

[MrSlayer]

10. I like DK a lot.

I love watching him speak and I agree with a lot of his stances but I don't think he'd have a chance in Hell of winning. He's way too radical for the mainstream and quite frankly he's terrible to look at.

[diamondsoul]

27. "...terrible to look at."

Only to some people. He's got an incredibly beautiful mind and heart. Yeah, I know, it sounds corny. I think some would be shocked at how easy it is to see "ugly" as "beauty" under the right conditions.

By the way, he's not particularly radical either if all the complaints I hear from "mainstream" folks are any indication.

[diamondsoul]

11. Ok, so even with this small

number of results, most people hree at least agree with Kucinich's platform.

Now knowing this, and knowing that the other candidates platforms are not nearly as strong for the people, what good does it do to support a candidate with less of your issues in the Primaries?

I started thinking about this and figured you know, I could understand it if supportking Kucinich was a total waste of time, but even with his low polling numbers it's proving to be a definite factor in the debates and on the issues. Throw in with that, all the Conservatives who hate NAFTA and the WTO, all the Greens, Nader supporters, Socialists, Libertarians, and the majority of loyal Dems plus anyone else who says they'd vote for a turnip before they'd vote Bush again- and well people, we have a strong candidate! WAIT! There's more-

Let's assume Kucinich can't win the nomination anyway, what harm does it do to send the message that you prefer his platform for the Party? Where exactly is the damage? The others have already begun snatching up some of his rhetoric only they have nothing to back it up with. Since Kucinich started in the debates I've heard 'Universal Healthcare" touted by others, "UN in and US out", "a campaign based on hope", and numerous other easily recognizable Kucinich catch-phrases. Now if he had his full support and lost anyway, the guy who beats him out would have to be one HELL of a candidate! Isn't that what we're after? The strongest possible candidate to run against Bush? Why are we defeating our own purpose?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Yes, if progressives want to show that progressive ideas have strength

they need to vote for progressive candidates, ESPECIALLY in the primaries.

If all these people who "love Dennis" vote for a centrist like Dean or a general like Clark or a left-of-center Kerry, the DNC can say, "Progressive ideas have no appeal to our rank and file."

If Dennis even breaks into double digits, the DNC will be forced to take notice.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

13. stop making sense...

Nobody wants to have their comfort level disturbed. They would rather have "time for change" without changing anything.

TWL

[ulysses]

17. I'm applying the strategic voting thing

to the primaries instead of to the general, which is where I'm always told by party centrists I should apply it.

Every four years, American progressives blue-sky it in the primaries and, when that candidate drops out, suck it up and support the party nominee in the general (except when they don't ;-) ). This time, some of us are faced with a rare thing - one candidate with whom we agree almost totally, and one with whom we agree with less, but who is still workable on policy, who pisses off Al From, who is awakening the grassroots, who has a lot of support (and money, to be frank) and who has the smarts to overcome things that lead some to announce their demise.

I love Kucinich. I want him to stay in the race for as long as he possibly can, because we desperately need what he's saying and doing. He's my #2 candidate. But he won't win the nomination. He just won't. And Dean, to my mind, is a hell of a lot better from a progressive point of view than some of the other candidates.

what harm does it do to send the message that you prefer his platform for the Party?

No harm per se, but they won't listen.

[Terwilliger]

23. the hard question to face is

if none of the candidates will win (always arguable) why not run someone who is an absolute alternative to Bush? Dennis may bring the opposition to a pitch, and push the balance in our favor.

My plea has been, if that's not what's going to happen (and polls do suggest it) we might as well make a final decision as to where our loyalties lie, because Dennis just doesn't have the support.

[MidwestMomma]

95. IMHO People won't vote for Kucinich not because they don't like him

as a candidate but because they are voting to keep certain candidates from the getting the nomination and they see a vote for Dennis as a vote for a candidate they don't like.

Not sure that even makes sense to me. :crazy:

I feel everyone has been so manipulated we can't even vote for who we consider the best the candidate anymore. Now we have to vote for Candidate A because Candidate B is too far ahead in the polls and we don't want Candidate B because his house slippers are too controversial for the general public and we will lose the election.

But what I think people on the board might be able to agree to is:

If going into the later primaries there is a CLEAR frontrunner based on delegates earned, then why not vote your conscience and vote for Kucinich? I'm in Kansas and I think that's what I'll do.

That way Dennis and his ideas can get some delegates for the convention and have input into the Party platform.

And by the way, I think it's low to make fun of a candidate for his looks. We are only allowed to make of the McChimpster for that. Dennis is one of those people whose beauty is best seen when he is impassioned and speaking for what he believes in. Peace.

[ulysses]

14. sorry, #2 on the poll.

If everyone who preferred Kucinich supported him and he still missed getting the nomination, would you view the Nominee as a stronger candidate?

Stronger how? Electorally? Yes, although be careful about reading too much into that. On policy? No.

[diamondsoul]

15. Nothing to apologize for.

I posted the poll wanting honest answers, if that's yours and it's honest, why be sorry?

Stronger how? Electorally? Yes, although be careful about reading too much into that.

Isn't the electoral vote the one everyone is so bloody worried about? That was the point of the question.

On policy? No

Now you've lost me. Why not on policy? First off, are we assuming the winning candidate has a nearly identical platform or are they just a better campaigner and politician with that extra edge of teflon coating to help them avoid the Rovian sh*t-slinging?

[ulysses]

21. what I mean is this.

Why not on policy?

None of the other candidates touches Kucinich for progressive policy.

First off, are we assuming the winning candidate has a nearly identical platform or are they just a better campaigner and politician with that extra edge of teflon coating to help them avoid the Rovian sh*t-slinging?

I guess that I've come to an incrementalist point of view, at least in part - much as the radical right is responsible for the fact that working class folks in America often vote against their own self-interest, they didn't achieve that overnight. Neither will we turn it around overnight.

To me, it comes down to a question, in hard numbers, of a realizable *start* or an unrealizable Hail Mary.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. I wonder how many people

are going to turn down the opportunity to vote for a truly progressive candidate in the primaries and then, whether the Dems win or lose, spend the next four years complaining about how progressives don't get no respect from the higher ups.

Nobody is going to just give us peace and economic justice. We have to ask for them explicitly.

[Northwind]

19. At one time my only concern was his lack of broad national appeal

Also known as electibility.

But his dirty backroom insider deal with Edwards in Iowa revealed that he is just another corrupt Washignton insider like Kerry and Edwards himself.

I would not now vote for DK under any circumstances.

[youngred]

26. DIRTY BACKROOM DEALS OH NO!!!

Haven't we had enough of this? I know I've explained it to you in at least two other threads....it really amuses me how the only people offended by this deal were Dean supporters (you wanna talk dirty deals Carol Mosley Braun anyone????)

or neglect that Gep and Kerry had a similar deal going.

[Northwind]

34. Explained it to me personally? I think not.

I've not mentioned it before today.

And you can "explain" (read spin) it all you like, it won't change the facts.

Kucinich made a dirty backroom insider deal. He proved that day that the only thing about his image pover the past year that was the truth was the "screeching lunatic" part. He is just another corrupt Washington insider.

And no, I do not neglect that Kerry and Gep had a similar Deal, but from Kerry and Gep I expected a concerted effort to udnermine the democratic process in the pursuit of their own power. They are well-known corrupt Washington insiders and they did exactly what I thought they would. From Kucnich and Edwards both I expected better, but they showed their true face.

The fact that Kucinich people don't seem to mind is just a reflection that they are not as idealistic and ethical as they claim either. One is not surprised to find the corrupt supporting the corrupt.

[youngred]

41. The best word to describe your post is

Bullshit.

No mention of CMB selling herself (literally) to Dean. The Iraq war is NOT the only issue in this campaign. Edwards and Kucinich line up closely on issues of Health, Education, Economics, and Taxes. This is not the case with Dean, Gep, or Kerry.

And yes, my idealism is just fine, but I'm also pragmatic and what Dennis did was not illegal, not immoral, not illogical, it was SMART POLITICS...the only complaints I've seen about the Deal is from sour grapes Dean supporters who assumed that Kucinich's support would go to them and them alone. They both acted smartly and decry it all you want...its still a good move.

It allows Dennis to take some delegates to the convention, affect the platform and actually do something. I love how Kucinich's opponents say he's unelectable, he can't do anything...but then when he does something (that is I might add perfectly in line with principle) to get electable they call him sellout...that's hypocricy not on DKs part but on those who disrespect and ignore the left of this party. FURTHERMORE, it wasn't evena deal set in stone. It was his recommendation...and that of Edwards that in areas where neither was viable they would contribue to each other. NO ONE seems to be bitching about Edwards part in this or even paying attention to the fact that this was NON-BINDING.

Look at the facts, get over your sour-grapes and indignation and move on.

[spooky3]

50. that's because Edwards supporters agree with you, youngred

We see the agreement with Dennis to be ethical and appropriate given caucus rules.

[youngred]

51. Thank you

as do the Kerry and Gephardt supporters. They recognize it as legit.

The Only supporters I have seen dislike and attack Dennis for this have been Dean supporters (and 1 kucinich supporter). Which means that it wasn't a sellout or dirty backroom deal...but the fuss is over people who assumed that they'd get support no matter what they did or said and then were infuriated when what they thought was a sure thing turned out not to be.

That, in addition to Dean's unexpected poor showing has left them looking for a scapegoat...Dennis is just one

[no name no slogan]

56. Um, nice try. Thanks for playing.

Have you ever participated in a caucus? EVER? I thought not. It's pretty obvious you have no idea of what actually goes on at one.

I consider myself a caucus veteran, having participated in the process a number of times, so I've got a pretty good idea of how they work.

Twice I was a delegate to the next level, and even went to my state's endorsing convention. One time was for Dukakis (1988), the other was for Wellstone for Senate/Perpich for Governor (1990).

My precinct-level subcaucus in 1988 was actually made up of Gephardt AND Dukakis supporters, as Geph's subcaucus was not viable (i.e., unable to get a delegate). Did Geph's people "sell out" by supporting their "next-best" candidate?

The funny thing is, I did NOT support Perpich for governor-- I supported Mike Hatch, who I agreed with more on the issues.

However, because I thought it was important to have one more vote for Wellstone at the state convention AND because I had a couple of key issues I wanted to support, I agreed to back Perpich for Governor so I could go to the convention for Paul Wellstone.

Did I "sell out"? Was this a "backroom deal"? Am I now "corrupt" because I added one more vote to Wellstone's column, and helped him get the endorsement over a much better-funded opponent?

Kucinich and Edwards made a deal at a time when both men were polling around 5% in the polls. They agreed that, if either one didn't have enough support for a delegate, that they would combine caucuses in order to go on to the next level.

Politics is the art of compromise-- getting something you want from your opponent by giving him/her something in return. Dennis Kucinich is a practiced politician-- he got something (a couple of delegates) in return for advising his supporters to help Edwards if they weren't viable.

Of course, I'm quite sure you ALSO very angry with the DK supporters who joined the Dean subcaucuses when their own subcaucus was not viable, right?

:eyes:

[diamondsoul]

33. "...dirty backroom insider deal...."

doesn't exist. There was nothing "dirty" nor "backroom" nor even "insider" about it. The story was broken to the press and badly mangled before Dennis could issue a statement to supporters or the press. He hasn't hidden anything, hadn't altered his positions on any issue, and hasn't dropped out to endorse another candidate.

It's called strategy, and since he DOES want to win this race, he has to overcome your "unelectable" meme. The people who spout that garbage and then shriek about dirty deals have only themselves to blame for it.

[Northwind]

36. Hold on to that denial as long as you wish.

It won't change the fact that your dirty little corrupt candidate detsroyed what credibility he may have had. He now joins the ranks of corrupt Washington insiders like Kerry, Gephardt, and Lieberman.

[diamondsoul]

40. Your rightious indignation rings a bit false,

NW. Sorry. You made it clear you had it in for Kucinich from the very first time I ran across you on these boards. This is not new from you, it's just a new version of the same old song you played with a short break in between.

[youngred]

44. as opposed to that outsider Dean?

The ex-DLCer? the man who was on the side of Gingrich and the Republicans over medicare? who regretted and dragged his feet on signing civil unions and only afterwards claimed it was a good thing? The man who supported Biden-Lugar and the Iraq war until he relaized he could make political hay out of it?

Dennis is not dirty, nor corrupt. Look at his history, look at his record. He sacrificed his job to do the right thing. That's more than any other candidate can say.

You offer no facts, no logic, no anything but name calling.

[corporatewhore]

53. oh yeah and dean aint corrupt

three letters for you: IBM

[Alex146]

20. This is just not DKs year...

Sorry, but he couldn't win a mayors race. This is the big time, we need a big time candidate. I agree with DK on many issues, but he didn't get me excited. If he couldn't get me to support him I doubt he'll snag many swing voters.

He should run for Senate IMO.

[cryofan]

25. He taints progressive issues with his weirdness, whether perceived or real

THe media has painted him as the New Age candidate, and he let them do it when he let reporters ride with him to New Age-related functions. Now all the progressive issues he supports may be tainted with his kooky media image.

Get out of the race, Dennis! Thanks for trying, though!

[youngred]

28. He has just as much right to be there as anyone else

and I have yet to see a single "kooky, new age" thing be attached to his campaign...and I tend to follow it pretty closely.

Stop trying to censor Democracy! Thanks for trying though!

[no name no slogan]

57. Progressism does NOT begin and end with DK

I still find it odd that you slag him off for having allies in the "New Age" movement, yet you yourself practice cryogenics, which is hardly something most Americans consider mainstream.

Progressive issues are still being talked about, with or without DK, and they will continue to be. There will also be various "kooks" that will support these issues, whether they're "Natural Law" believers, pro-pot-smoking hippies, reincarnated ancient Mongol chieftans, or people who believe in freezing their dead bodies to be revived at a later date.

Either way, the media will continue to trivialize us, just like they have in the past. Remember, Wellstone was a "chickenshit" according to Dubya's daddy.

[diamondsoul]

65. On behalf of Dennis, but without his knowledge or approval-

The media can "paint" anyone anyway they want. That's part of the problem. Kucinich intends to be part of the solution. You'd rather help the media.

"Get out of the race, Dennis! Thanks for trying, though!"

NO! Thanks for offering your advice though!

[Tinoire]

69. You keep forgetting the part where you say

that you are/were (flavor of the week) a Kucinich supporter.

This, by the way, is the reason were were having "technical difficulties" last week ;)

[IndianaGreen]

29. I like and support Dennis because he is the most liberal of the candidates

However, I will point out that when Dennis told his Iowa backers to go to Edwards if they weren't viable, Dennis broke a cardinal rule in politics: never betray a core issue!

Opposition to the war is a core issue, as much as abortion rights and gay rights are core issues. Dennis's tactics in Iowa had the effect of giving a prowar candidate some delegates at the expense of a antiwar candidate, Howard Dean.

So, while I still like and support Dennis because he is the most liberal of the candidates, I now know that I cannot count on Dennis on going all the way with me on a core issue.

This is why I now favor Wes Clark as the prime antiwar candidate if Dean is unable to pull the rabbit out of the hat. I trust Clark more than I trust Dennis on my core issues, and that is a sad commentary on how Iowa has dampened my enthusiasm for Dennis.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. In all fairness, IG

the war has happened, and nobody can change that. The question is where to go from here. Dennis still has the best plan for getting out of Iraq.

Dean, for all his rhetoric about how he would have opposed the war (even though he never attended a single demonstration, as DK did), still wants to "stay the course."

[IndianaGreen]

39. And Kerry supports a "compassionate" PNAC and PATRIOT

While I advocate an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, it is obvious that Kucinich's political judgment in Iowa tainted his pristine image.

The reason I want us to get out of Iraq now is because the final political settlement in Iraq is inevitable: either the Shias are in control, or there is a bloody civil war. Getting out now saves lives. Staying in Iraq will not change anything other than add more names to a war monument.

I am reminded of the words of another general about Iraq:

Attacking Iraq now will cause a lot of problems. I think the debate right now that's going on is very healthy. If you ask me my opinion, Gen. Scowcroft, Gen. Powell, Gen. Schwarzkopf, Gen. Zinni, maybe all see this the same way. It might be interesting to wonder why all the generals see it the same way, and all those that never fired a shot in anger and are really hell-bent to go to war see it a different way. That's usually the way it is in history. (Crowd laughter.)

— Gen. Anthony Zinni, August 23, 2002

http://www.theestimate.com/public/091302.html

[diamondsoul]

38. Actually that's not quite true, IG.

This wasn't an endorsement which seems to be how you're viewing it. A sort of blanket statement that if Dennis can't quite beat the unelectability we should all go back Edwards. That's not what happened.

The fact that he helped another low-polling candidate up in the ranks to achieve a goal for himself has no impact at all on his positions or core issues.

[IndianaGreen]

42. The point is that it gave a prowar candidate additional delegates

Why should we help a prowar candidate? If we are going to do that, we might as pack our bags and join the Kerry campaign!

[diamondsoul]

46. Because Sharpton had no support to exchange,

and Clark wasn't competing. When your options are limited sometimes the choice won't be the one you'd like to make, IG.

[IndianaGreen]

49. I rather stick to my principles of not supporting a pro-IWR candidate

Kerry's vote has cost 511 GI's deaths, over 2,800 GIs wounded, and over 10,000 dead and wounded Iraqis on a war that was preventable, unnecessary, and as as the failure to find WMDs has shown, completely idiotic.

[diamondsoul]

64. I'm guessing you meant Edwards and not Kerry-

And I can respect your position, but I can't agree with it. Thanks for being so decent about your problems with the situation. I really appreciate it considering some of the other venom I've seen over it.

[Desertrose]

72. IG, sorry to hear you feel this way....

I am sorry you are walking away form Dennis because he worked with Edwards to try to gain a few folks to stay in this race so he CAN ultimaltey change things. With all the lack of press/bad press/more lack of press, he did what he could to stay in...

...but let me add that no where did he betray any of his ideals....he sold nothing out. Edwards would still be in this, Dennis didn't change that...he hasn't changed his platform...he is still the best choice...still the only antiwar candidate and the only bring the troops home immediately- that hasn't changed.

I seriously doubt the Dean supporters would have worked with Dennis the way the Edwards folks did- this way they both maximized their chances at the cost of what?? This was the first caucus....it hasn't decided the entire race... and it helped Dennis gain some delegates. It is so important that Dennis has a voice during this process...if he had no delegates- how else could he get anything in the platform? I personally still feel in my heart he has a good shot here at the nomination, but he needs all the people who praise and like him.

You want him to go all the way for you, yet you (others too) aren't willing to go all the way with him...it takes ALL of us working TOGETHER - but you know that.
I truly hope you will reconsider....I trust Dennis more than any other candidate running...more than any other "politician" in many many a long year.

We passionate souls have to stick together....:loveya:
DR

[IndianaGreen]

74. I hate this war

and I hate those that got us into this war, and some of them have "D" after their names.

A Kerry Presidency means that the war will go on, PATRIOT will remain on the books, and we will have to demonstrate against Kerry as we did against Bush.

I don't want a change in personnel in the Oval Office, I want a change in policy!

[iowapeacechief]

98. There you go again...

"prowar" and "antiwar" labels misapplied. Bogus!

[MMT]

108. Aren't you a Marxist, IG? What's so noble about "better dead than Red"?

You're saying that Dennis should have sacrificed himself to prevent Edwards even getting one more delegate. That sounds just like the Birchers' "better dead than Red". You reject all compromises, even innocuous ones. What's noble or even progressive about that?

[CrazyRP]

30. Well...

I just don't like him.
I'm pissed I can't vote in the polls because I've been on the DU now for 2 years I just can't remember my password. I'm RPF113, if anybody remembers.

Anyway, I do like his exhuberant speeches, but I don't thing he has the stature to be President. Sometimes he can seem like a whiney little baby. BUT I do like his positions on most issues. I just can't see him as president.

By the way, I just want to give a shout out to IndianaGreen and Tewilliger! How you guys been?

[Bush loves Jiang]

31. I think he's more electable against Bush than he is against other Dems...

But with that being said, many would rather support someone they like slightly less than Kucinich to ensure that someone they find disagreeable doesn't wih the Primary. (I have major problems with Kerry's lack of committment to progressive ideals abroad (a round-about way of saying that I wish he had the balls to tell the Taiwanese people that they are right like Kucinich and Lieberman do) and with his war mongering, for instance. I find Sharpton and Lieberman even more undesirable, but they don't stand a chance in Hell in the Primary.)

[R3dD0g]

35. DK was the first email I signed up for.

And I admire him tremendously.

But, my admiration doesn't get him the White House. And, that's what I want.

[diamondsoul]

37. No indeed.

Admiration won't do that for any of them. That requires hard work and determination. Do you have it?

[OhioStateProgressive]

105. the real shame is that it doesn't even take that

all it takes is a vote

I am convinced the main problem in American politics isn't the politicians...it is the voters

we are supposed to vote, not prognosticate elections and strategy...only a true few people are educated enough to have "opinions"...as average, non experts, we are only supposed to vote

people overbelieving their own importance is the problem here

vote your heart!

[diamondsoul]

47. Kicking because I'd really like to see

more results and dicussion of the topic I put forth.

[diamondsoul]

48. Kick n/t

[zulchzulu]

55. I really like Kucinich supporters a lot

I've been doing grassroots work for Kerry since last July and can say that Kucinich supporters are among the nicest people I've met when doing tabling and such.

I was a lone tabler for Kerry at the Fighting Bob Fest in Baraboo, Wisconsin on a hot summer day.

My table was next to the Kucinich people. They had made a very large sign, bought at least a few grands worth of merch and were very dedicated.

Kucinich spoke there but unfortunately did not stop by the two tables that his fans had bought and set up. I was disappointed that he didn't at least stop by. A few of his fans had stayed back at the tables in case anyone stopped by for literature, buttons or whatever.

They were a dedicated bunch of great people. They even took some Kerry literature and talked openly about the issues. I can't say that was the same with some of the other candidate's grassroots supporters.

[fabius]

58. I'm voting "other reason"

I hesitate to say "unelectable" because that is really subjective. I agree with Dennis on a lot of things.

I had a problem with his anti-choice stance (but he changed), I donated to his campaign early on. He has stood up consistently for progressive issues.

We can't win it on just Dennis though. My mom is a die-hard Democrat but she won't vote for him. Older people need somebody that they have a level of comfort with. (She's for Clark).

Dennis is mobilizing a lot of younger people and Greens, but you see from Iowa that doesn't turn out enough voters to win. He's running a very credible campaign.

He does not seem to come across very well on TV and that's going to be important. Plus the press won't take him seriously. We can wish it were otherwise but it's not.

If we WIN this campaign by emphasizing where our ideals match most of "middle America", we are NOT sacrificing our ideals, we are using smart politics. Just like Dennis did in the Edwards deal, for which I do not fault him.

Some of Dennis' supporters (and some of Dean's) are young, idealistic and nor ready to compromise.

BUT - Dean also has experienced political volunteers, a lot of mainstream support, well-off, middle age yuppies like me and hence money, and the media buzz. We will soon see if Kerry, Edwards, and Clark have what it takes to be in this for the long term. Dean's team didn't show up too well in Iowa, partly from the disorganization of the field operation and partly from the negative bashfest with Gephardt. Also from "front-runner-itis" - coasting.

[LWolf]

59. Great thread, DS.

Thanks for posting it.

I obviously didn't vote in your poll, but it was instructive to hear people openly discuss all the facets of choosing a primary candidate.

And I greatly appreciate the courtesy and civility that so many posters offered!

:hi:

[diamondsoul]

60. Very cool responses mostly!

This is what I came here after, and I still don't regret it.

Now I have an understanding of a few more different minds out there and that's always a good thing.

[jsw_81]

61. All of the above

1. He's unelectable.

2. He has a bizarre platform that only sounds good if you're high or completely uninformed about American politics (or both).

3. He doesn't look or sound like a president. Hell, he doesn't look or sound like a congressman.

[diamondsoul]

66. Well you again, mmm?

1. Wrong.

2. wrong.

3. Who the hell cares what he "looks and sounds like"? Since when has the Resident in Thief ever looked or sounded like a President?!

[youngred]

96. That's your opinion

not fact

[Terwilliger]

62. kick

[dweller]

67. another

:kick:

dp

[ThirdWheelLegend]

68. hmm 59% plus all the DK supporters who can't vote in this

That's a pretty big margin of people that prefer DK over the others.

Yeah this is a DU poll, but thats pretty one-sided.

Gee, too bad he is unelectable?! *cough*

TWL

[incapsulated]

70. It's not *just* the "unelectable" thing

As much as I like Dennis and a lot of his ideas, he just doesn't seem to have the sort of "leadership personality" that a President with a rethug majority would need. I also don't think he would be flexible enough to actually get anything done, it's all about compromise.

[Desertrose]

71. The problem is...how would you know?

(not just you personally)

How would anyone know the truth about Dennis from the way the media has basically vanished him from the scene?? and what thay have shown have been the worst soundbytes to show him in the worst possible way.... the debates are a f**king joke....I hate to think that most Americans think we were shown true debates when they were all pretty much horse & pony media shows.

If you ever get to see Dennis interact with people for real -its very different and I can imagine he is a dynamo in the House! He has certainly shown leadership abilities in a way that isn't so "in your face" macho but believe me, Dennis has what it takes to get the job done and to be able to work with others to get it done.

and honestly- I think the deal he made with Edwards proves he DOES know how to compromise to get things done....without selling his soul or losing integrity. I think it would be a nice change to have someone in the WH with backbone ....

Peace
DR

[incapsulated]

73. It's a gut thing, I guess

I just feel that Dennis has a platform that would drive the rethugs so insane they would declare war on him from day one that would make Clinton look like a love-fest. Very few politians could survive that.

I think people find his platform inspiring, but Dennis himelf, although fiesty, isn't the kind of politian I think americans would rally around.

It really is a intuitive thing, but that's how this country elects presidents. Actually it's far more superficial than what I said, when it comes to elections. Most americans find Bush a likeable guy, try to get your head around that!

[tinanator]

79. you mean like Clinton?

Youre right! No more Democrats in the White House! We can't take the heat! Now, we're getting somewhere. Wheres my GW for prez button? Im gonna help the country...

[incapsulated]

81. I guess you choose not to notice

That I said it would be considerably worse than Clinton, and he only survived because the economy was percieved as good by the majority of voters and he was a fucking master politician. I'm still amazed he did survive, myself, and that was with a centrist platform.

[tinanator]

88. worse?

theres worse than government shutdowns, perjury traps and impeachment trials? Really.

[incapsulated]

90. Yes

There are set-ups and dirty tricks we never dreamed of, because we don't think that way.

I thought I never saw it so bad till Clinton.

Then Bush was elected.

I've since learned never to imagine I've seen the worst.

[tinanator]

91. so beyond cynicism and beyond pessimism

and beyond negativity we will find you, huddled in fear?
My pity.

[LWolf]

76. Have you checked out his actual record?

Just a few items found on a quick search. The point is, Dennis is used to working with others, from both sides of the aisle, to accomplish goals. That's leadership, and that's something the president needs to be able to do.


http://www.house.gov/kucinich/press/infrastrc3.html

<snip>

Washington, D.C --- U.S. Reps. Dennis J. Kucinich (D-Cleveland) and Steven C. LaTourette (R-Madison) today announced their intent to introduce bipartisan legislation together that would give zero-interest loans to fund infrastructure projects. Prompted by numerous local and national infrastructure crises, such as 96 percent of Cleveland school buildings that do not meet standards and 29 percent of bridges labeled as "deficient," Kucinich and LaTourette both saw the urgent need to help localities with the funding of infrastructure projects. Joining them were Council President Michael Polensek, Ward 18 Councilman Jay Westbrook, Ward 10 Councilman Roosevelt Coats, Presidents of the Steelworkers Locals at LTV, LTV representative Mike LaWell, AFL-CIO Executive Director John Ryan, AFL-CIO President Tom Frisbee, representatives from the Cleveland City schools and other Building Trades unions.

http://www.house.gov/kucinich/press/china3.html

<snip>

Washington, D.C --- Reps. Dennis J. Kucinich (D-Cleveland) and Bob Ney (R-St. Clairsville) today led a bipartisan group of Members of Congress to decry the record widening trade deficit on the release of international trade data by the U.S. Department of Commerce. The latest trade figures reveal that the U.S. trade deficit in goods and services with the world exceeded $1 billion per day. The Ohio House members concluded that Permanent MFN for China will aggravate this trend. The dollar value of the U.S. trade deficit with China is second only to Japan, but the ratio of imports to exports is by far the worst the U.S. has ever suffered with any major trading partner.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/0724-03.htm

<snip>

House Takes Historic Step Against Patriot Act - In Late Night Vote Passes Bipartisan Otter/Kucinich/Paul Amendment To Withhold Money For "Sneak-And-Peek" Searches

WASHINGTON - July 23 - In a historic late night vote the United States House of Representatives passed a bipartisan amendment offered by Congressman C.L. "Butch" Otter (R-ID), Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) and Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) to withhold funding for "sneak-and-peek" searches under the USA PATRIOT Act.
The amendment passed 309-118 as part of the House's consideration of the FY '04 Commerce, Justice and State Appropriations bill. The passage of the amendment marks the first time either chamber of Congress has acted to roll back any provision of the law. The passage of the amendment by almost a three-to-one margin reflects a growing outrage over threats to constitutional free speech and due process rights imposed in haste in the fearful days after 9/11.

http://www.mindfully.org/GE/RTK-HR-3377-Kucinich.htm

<snip>


Rep. Kucinich and 18 other members of Congress advocate the labeling of genetically engineered food to give consumers additional health- and safety-related information. Several food safety and environmental concerns have been raised in regards to genetically engineered foods, so until proven completely safe, consumer choice should be possible.

[incapsulated]

77. Would they give him a chance

to compromise? That's my concern. I doubt that, as President, he would be able to put his ideas on the table before a Republican controlled house and senate and have any real debate or compromise.

Of course, any Democrat would have the same problem, but the platform that Dennis is putting foward is a bit more distasteful to rethugs than your average Democrat's. And isn't it his platform that his supporters tout as seperating him from the pack?

It's not whether his supporters, or even the left of the party in general, like him or his ideas. It's whether the country is ready for it.

The majority of this country generally agree with the Democratic platform over the Republicans. This has been the case for decades. Yet, they vote for Republicans all the time over Democrats. This is the reality that runs smack up against a Kucinich candidacy. Having the best ideas doesn't get you elected in America. The ability to sell yourself and your platform as something the average voter can support, does. Even if it's total bullshit: ie, "compassionate conservative". We may laugh, but he wouldn't have gotten half the voters to pull the lever for him unless at least some of them believed it, and liked his image.

[tinanator]

80. ever heard of an Executive Order?

Those are where the big decisions are made unilaterally, and DK is ready to make them. Dont fool yourself.

[incapsulated]

82. Oh, c'mon

If he started pulling out executive orders to get his proposals passed, he would face impeachment in no time flat.

Only rethugs can play those games.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. The reason Repiggies can play those games

is that they know how to marshall their supporters to flood Congressional offices with mail and phone calls.

That's how Reagan got away with what he did.

[incapsulated]

86. They also have the media on their side

When Clinton tried it, they roasted him as the second coming of Nixon.

[tinanator]

89. you come on

youre the one draggin your feet. But then, I can see how much change youre ready for.

[incapsulated]

92. Dragging my feet?

No. I'm facing reality. It's something I can't afford to ignore right now.

[tinanator]

93. prove it

talks cheap.
-and assertions should be abbreviated.

[diamondsoul]

101. Impeachment on WHAT grounds?

And by the way, why are you assuming the Republicans would retain control of Congress if Kucinich is the nominee?? I don't see that happening.

If Kucinich is the nominee people are going to elect Dems in droves to Congress because we'll all know it's the ONLY way anything will get done.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. They vote for Republicans when

the Dems don't articulate their visions in ways that the voters can understand.

Gore should have won in a landslide when faced with such an obvious bozo. I winced when I heard him speak in vague generalities about "programs that benefit working families" on one hand and "I'm for capital punishment/NAFTA/more Pentagon funding" on the other.

Imagine if Gore had come on and said, "He's for the fat cats. I'm for ordinary people. He's for building an American empire. I'm for making America a shining example of peace and prosperity for the world. He's for letting the insurance companies continue to gouge you. I'm for giving every American equal access to health care. He's for letting busybodies interfere in your private decisions. I say that your private life is private. He's for raping the environment. I'm for preserving it for our descendants. He's for fake tax cuts that benefit millionaires. I'm for real tax cuts that benefit working people most." Etc. Etc.

Would there have been unprecedented numbers of undecided voters the day before the election if Gore had clearly delineated himself from Bush?

His margin would have been 5 million, not 500,000.

[incapsulated]

87. Not exactly..

Gore screwed up on many fronts. *BUT* The press despised him and made no secret about it. He made many of the arguments you did and got nothing to show for it. There isn't a study I've seen that supports the idea that the details of any platform is the deciding factor in a General election. For any Democrat to win, they literally have to be ten times better the politician as the rethug they are running against. And have the media at least not openly hostile. And lucky.

It's not easy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. Gore did not fight back or make full use of the allies he had

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

111. Clinton had trouble precisely because

he was so willing to compromise. The Republicans are sharks, and if you give into them, they smell blood.

Kucinich provides the maximum contrast to Bush. What do the Repiggies argue against? Saving family farms? Getting out of Iraq? Cutting Pentagon waste? Getting big business out of health care?

On the matter of health care, Clinton backpedaled the minute the Harry and Louise ads came out against his already corporate-dominated health care plan. He was neither forthright nor clever enough to counteract the Republicans.

Here's another way to handle the issue: propose an outright total remodeling of health care in this country--a single payer system. When the Republicans start squealing about "socialized medicine," go on TV and ask the American people, a la Reagan, to call their Congresscritters and Senators with their horror stories about insurance companies. A few million phone calls later...

Same thing with NAFTA/WTO. These systems are extremely unpopular with the general public, and getting out of them would win support even from some of the more populist Republicans.

[diamondsoul]

102. He doesn't have the "leadership personality"???

You're joking, right??

WHICH Candidate has come out and ACTED on every issue before us in the Primary season before anyone else? Dennis Kucinich.

Which candidate has LEAD the way in every matter before us, the IWR, the Patriot Acts, Diebold and BBV issues, job loss, the environment, military conflict, healthcare, education, etc. etc. etc. Which one has introduced legislation on those issues wherever possible? Hint, it wasn't Gpehart, Kerry or Edwards.

Dennis John Kucinich has done more leading than anyone else in this race for the past 2 years so where this nonsense about lacking in leadership comes from, I couldn't begin to guess.

[Indiana Democrat]

78. He's unelectable.

He's our Gary Bauer.

[mandyky]

84. Other - a combination of things

Dennis' personality and his screechiness get to me at times.
As much as I'd love to get a real progressive in the WH, this country will not go from far right to far left, in such a short time.
Dennis' spirituality and vegan-ism is too foreign for most Christians.
I am a New Ager and have Wiccan friends and live in KY. A lot of Bush supporters support him just because he says God bless you and claims he's born again.

As much as I hate to say this, because I think fear and 9-11 have been way overplayed, too many people in this country are scared and angry and don't want a department of peace.

So all the good things I like about DK, so many in this country just are not ready for in a 9-11 world.

[KaraokeKarlton]

97. He's too radical for my tastes

Keep in mind that I'm an Independent swing voter. I don't dislike Kucinich, but I'd never vote for him for president. I would vote for him for the position he holds right now, though, because I think he's a good fit for that spot.

[no name no slogan]

99. kick (nt)

:kick:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

100. Other. I like DK, and I like his vision.

I like his ideals, but not all of his ideas. And I like his idealism -- in a Congressman. And I was inspired by Kerry a decade ago and I have been hoping he would run for President ever since, so, I'm just one of those dedicated early loyal supporters, there was never a question of me supporting someone else.

[drfemoe]

103. I've lost all respect for Kucinich

If he had any standing in the polls the media would call him "an angry little man".

[diamondsoul]

104. 1. I'm not even sure what this means-

2. your statements don't appear to have any connection to each other let alone the premise of the poll and thread.

Care to clarify?

[drfemoe]

113. I have lost all respect for Dennis Kucinich

is what I've lost all respect for Kucinich means.

If I WERE a Kucinich supporter would he care to clarify exactly who his back-up candidate is? If I supported Kucinich would he clarify who's group I would be directed to in the caucus for my state or at the national convention?

I don't understand your question either, unless you're polling for the unnamed Kucinich back-up candidate.

If everyone who preferred Kucinich supported him and he still missed getting the nomination, would you view the Nominee as a stronger candidate?

If he had any showing in the polls, and the media called him "an angry little man", I would agree with their assessment, and might add, "unreliable".

[diamondsoul]

118. You're still not making much sense to me.

Ok you've lost respect for Kucinich- for what?

If I WERE a Kucinich supporter would he care to clarify exactly who his back-up candidate is? If I supported Kucinich would he clarify who's group I would be directed to in the caucus for my state or at the national convention?

What "backup" candidate? You seem to have missed the fact that Gephart and Kerry had a similar arrangement and that these kinds of reciprocal support trades are common among the lower polling candidates during the Iowa Caucuses. You'd be directed to caucus for Dennis, of course, don't be silly. Nobody was "directed" to do anything but bring people to caucus. They were ASKED to throw support to Edwards if Kucinich stood no chance of viability, both to avoid throwing more delegates to the front-runners and to gain delegates through the agreement among caucusers. It had nothing to do with platforms and everything to do with gaining a voice at the State Convention.

Most Kucinich supporters don't HAVE a "backup candidate". I'm one of them for the most part, though if I'm forced to choose I'd probably go with John Kerry.(then again that changes about every 15 minutes still)

As for the poll, the question is simply this- If Kucinich has the strongest platform for the people and all those who agree with that platform support him, but he STILL loses the nomination, the candidate who beats him out would have to be mighty strong. The strongest possible candidate to run against Bush- AGAIN, isn't that what we're after? So why aren't we forcing that candidate into the lead?

If he had any showing in the polls, and the media called him "an angry little man", I would agree with their assessment, and might add, "unreliable".

ROTFLMAO Now that's funny! I've been backing Kucinich since March and he has yet to do anything that would make me call him "unreliable". Every time I've predicted he'd do something, he's done it. (though he came a little shy of my prediction in Iowa getting between 4-6% of initial support instead of the 10% I'd been hoping for.)

As a Kucinich supporter who grasped the way Iowa Caucuses work within about a weeks time, I was thrilled to hear about the deal and praised him for being so shrewd. I maintain that position.

[youngred]

115. what has that to do with anything

?

[Cheswick2.0]

106. DK makes me wish a REAL liberal were in the race

I would be supporting Maxine Waters or Henry Waxman. But look at DK's record over the last 6 years or so. He is a paternalistic social conservative. He can talk all he wants about global issues and peace, but he voted for trying teens as adults. He voted for the global gag rule. He voted for making burning the flag against the law.

https://ssl.capwiz.com/aclu/bio/?id=468&congress=1081&lvl=C

Ton Harkin has a 100% rating with the ACLU. DK has a 40% rating, worse even than my senator Arlen Spector who has a 50% rating.

[diamondsoul]

109. Tha same half-truth's over and over again...

Let's try presenting the REST of the story-

"he voted for trying teens as adults."

For very specific offenses and with the stipulation that no minor under the age of 19 would be housed with adult convicts except in community based housing setups such as group homes.

"He voted for the global gag rule."

How many years ago was this? You've been corrected on his women's rights position repeatedly, and you know full well he hasn't voted in opposition to the ACLU since 2001.

"He voted for making burning the flag against the law."

A vote which has been explained numerous times here. He believes Americans have lost all sense of pride in the country, and that vote was a small step towards restoring that. Disagree with it all you like but have a little respect for other points of view for once. Furthermore he's made statements since then suggesting he's reconsidering that subject due to the enormous undermining of civil rights under the Bush administration and his increased awareness that any such efforts set a dangerous precident.

"Ton Harkin has a 100% rating with the ACLU. DK has a 40% rating, worse even than my senator Arlen Spector who has a 50% rating."

Because of a former position of opposing abortion which you know very well no longer applies. That rating is over the course of his entire Congressional career, and mainly brought on by his previous anti-choice votes which he hasn't cast since 2001. If you can't grasp that legislators can and do change positions during their careers, that's your problem not Kucinich's. Don't slander him because of your own closed mind.

[diamondsoul]

110. Oh, and is a "REAL Liberal" anything

like a "REAL Christian"? Extremism stinks no matter what position you take or who's side you claim to be on.

[youngred]

116. he's still 300times more liberal than Dean

if you want to talk comparative without substance of course

[no name no slogan]

117. Who uses the ACLU as a litmus test?

I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU, and even I don't solely use their criteria for picking a candidate!

Maybe you need to look at this to get a better picture of where DK stands as a "REAL Liberal".

[Rich Hunt]

112. Kucinich was my first, then my second

...but I'm not terribly happy with his campaign - at least here in Illinois.

[iowapeacechief]

114. And you can't help...

...make the Illinois campaign better? Is it that bad?

I'm sorry to hear this.