CNN is right... "... causes Dem infighting"

[housewolf]

Prompted by this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1830915


Dean made a derrogautory generalization about republicans to a meeting of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party that was being broadcast live over c-span. He's been known to make such off-the-cuff, unthinking comments in the past.

Edwards and Biden reacted and said they didn't agree with what Dean said, he wasn't speaking for their opinion.

Now many Dems and DU'ers have chosen sides and are fighting with each other about who was right, who was wrong, and who damaged the party the most.


And the winner is...
CNN for stating the obvious.

[expatriot]

1. Has anybody done a search yet on any Dem-bashing by the current or

former RNC Chairs and whether they got in hot water for it?

[housewolf]

10. The thing with the republicans...

Is that they defend each other not matter how bogus a statement was made. They NEVER admit that anyone in their party makes an error.

[Cha]

24. Good point, expatriot!

The media set a trap and it was sprung by dems..

Senator Dodd was on the same show with biden and he said he didn't have a problem with what Dean said. Maybe he did his homework and knew the context of the quote and didn't want to set off a mediacircus/DU infighting fiasco.

[SmokingJacket]

2. No -- infighters cause infighting.

I don't hear Dean criticizing other Dems.

[housewolf]

11. No... he's too busy defendng himself n/t

[Cha]

25. Dean wasn't only

"defending himself" as you put it. Dean was also telling like it is with republicans.

[MojoXN]

3. Well, I guess that if the GOP shills want to take a SINGLE issue...

That's being debated on internet forums as the holy grail of party infighting, than they are free to do so. And I suppose that the average American television viewer will take it as gospel truth, in between their doses of Michael Jackson and missing Aruba girl. They (Rightists) are trying to delude themselves into believeing that we aren't starting to consolidate, that we aren't getting ready to unify and depose them.

Fuck 'em. They play for the other side, remember?

MojoXN

[JDPriestly]

4. Who is being honest, Dean or his critiques.

Dean, in my opinion.

[MojoXN]

5. Mine too.

I'm sick of Dems who put up with the Right's bullying. It's about damn time that we had someone who wouldn't take their shit.

MojoXN

[tabasco]

8. Damn straight. Time to call the republicans what they are.

Goddamn criminals. Any Dem that can't handle it ought to FOAD.

I'm about damn tired of seeing this Nation RUINED and some Dems acting like it's not happening.

[MojoXN]

9. Or acting like the other side is going to go down on their own...

AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, PEOPLE! IT'S UP TO US!

MojoXN

[housewolf]

15. If we are going to "take them down"

Then we need to do it on the merits of our cause vs theirs, not through the use of "cheap shots" that discredit our speakers.

We have a good cause and reasons why electoral reform is necessary. We have a good point that "our" people stood in line for 8+ hours to vote and people in republican precincts didn't have to do that. Dean's comments about "a lot of republicans never worked an honest day in their lives" causes the good points to get lost and him attratct negative attention to himself, deflecting any positive attention to his good argument.

[tabasco]

22. Telling the truth is not a cheap shot.

Hundreds of thousands in the "investor class" have never worked a day in their lives. They kick back, live on the interest, and vilify the poor for not working hard enough. It's about time we recognize this as one of, if not the biggest, danger to our democracy - the GREED of the rich. And when the republicans squeal "class warfare" we should respond "damn right you've been waging class warfare on us!"

Oh heaven forbid if Howard Dean tells the truth about republicans.

And the Democrats have shown just how successful rationality is without passion. The People do not respect politicians without passion. As much as I admire Kerry, his inability to speak concisely and bluntly hurt his campaign.

The republicans have constantly conducted vicious, slanderous, name-calling and real cheap shots. Last time I checked they control all three branches of our government. The electorate doesn't seem to mind a bit of nastiness one bit. I am not suggesting we stoop to their level but Dean didn't. He stated a fact.


edit typo

[housewolf]

12. Honesty?

Dean made an off-the cuff generalization for which he has no supporting evidence, made for the sole purpose of exciting "the base." That's what's known as "a cheap shot."

[JDPriestly]

17. You mean like accusing Kerry who was a war hero

of being a cheat? You mean like accusing Democrats of being the tax and spend party when, in fact it's Republicans who are running up the monstrous deficits? I understand what he means when he says Republicans don't earn an honest living -- Watch Enron and The Corporation and get out and work in the world and you will understand exactly what he is talking about. Cheats -- cheats -- cheats -- and Ken Lay for example was the biggest donor to Bush in 2000. The Republican money came from Enron's dishonest business practices. Lay says he wasn't in the loop, but if he wasn't he sure should have been. It was his responsibility to be in the loop. I suggest you watch those movies and see what Dean is talking about. As for DeLay, it is just a matter of time.

[housewolf]

19. What does any of this have to do with Dean's comments?

or those of Edwards or Biden?

[JDPriestly]

35. This is relevant on two grounds

First, the Republicans established a very low standard for very general, derogatory, abusive statements that were not supported by truth during the 2004 presidential campaign -- and it brought them success. They should not be surprised if Democrats follow suit and make statements that generalize, are derogatory and abusive about them. It's just human to give back what you get. The Republicans should take a look at their own conduct, their own statements and ask themselves if they are taking the high ground in this area. Actually, I think the Republicans view Democrats who don't make statements like those Dean made as wimps and losers. Dean's comments speak very directly to the Republican mindset that loves exaggerations and hates troublesome facts, uncertainty or intelligent qualification of statements -- which if you remember they called flip-flops during the 2004 presidential campaign. Biden looks like a fool who quibbles over details to this tough nuts.

Second, Biden's statement highlights the double standard that Republicans, many in the press and many Democrats themselves apply to Democrats and Republicans. It's like the old attitude toward promiscuous sex. It used to be OK for a man to sleep around. He was just viewed as being a normal guy. But if a woman dared to be "indiscrete" to the slightest degree, it was not OK.
She was a "fallen woman." In this day and age of Sex and the Single Girl, that seems really strange, but that's how the double standard worked. Likewise, here, a standard is being applied to Dean's statements that is never applied to the many Republican leaders or to the Republican pundits on TV or in the press.

The alternative -- Biden should have used the opportunity to point out the Republican abuses that were not properly questioned during the 2004 campaign as well as other campaigns. The Republicans have attacked the heroism of Democratic hero after Democratic hero with entirely bogus stories. The Republicans have labeled Democrats as irresponsible tax and spend liberals, the party of corrupt give-aways to the poor, people who somehow don't work as hard as Republicans. Most recently the Republican Party actually asserted (apparently in court) that convicted criminals are more likely to be Democrats than Republicans. These Republican statements are far worse than the puffing statements that Dean made. It is obvious to anyone that when Dean said Republicans don't earn an honest living, he was talking about the Party -- not ordinary Republicans. Personally, I agree with him on that statement. I think the Republican Party is quite dishonest in the way it lies to the voters about what it is doing and who it represents. And I question the honesty of Republican individuals who vote for that Party, although, literally speaking, they may be quite honest with regard to how they earn their living.

I believe the other statement Dean made was equally innocuous. Dean was over-generalizing, but he did not over-generalize more than Republicans do all the time. Really, what was Biden thinking? He could have used this to chastise the press if he had to mention it or the state of politics today. It looks like he is jealous of Dean's popularity in the Democratic Party. It makes him look small. I have spoken to older people recently who were anti-Dean in 2004 because of the press coverage of him. They are as made at the Republicans as Dean is now, and one of them told me quite bluntly that she wished Dean had run instead of Kerry. Mind you I supported Kerry wholeheartedly during the campaign and was not a Deaniac.

[Bluzmann57]

6. I believe that Mr. Edwards and Senator Biden

still have the right to say what they feel. I don't give a damn about the "infighting" here on DU. We have nothing to do with policy making and are just having discussions. We Democrats still have a right to disagree with our leaders, whether anyone likes it or not. But I do believe there is more unity than ever before in the Democratic Party. We all realize that the other side is on the ropes and we can just keep on hitting them, so to speak. Reid, Boxer, Conyers are all doing just that.

[housewolf]

14. "there is more unity than ever before in the Democratic Party."

Agreed.


It's just an interesting example of how we can become derailed, upset and lose some of our unity by someone's unthinking comments.

[Southsideirish]

7. I vow to never speak badly about a republicun. Is that the correct mantra

in the wimp DLC wing of the once mighty Democratic party that actually stood for something?
Thank you, sir, can I have another?

[housewolf]

16. Dean didn't "speak badly about a republican"

He slandered a large non-specific group of them with a sweeping generalization for which he had no evidence. It's what's called "a cheap shot."

It's a far cry from criticizing a person or a group for specific actions with specific evidence to back up your charges.

I understand that it's a cause to cheer when one of "ours" stands up to "them." But cheap shots gain us nothing and contribute to the questioning of our credibility.

[JDPriestly]

18. If a Democrat such as Biden does not agree

with a statement made by Dean, he should ignore it. And if he is asked about it he should answer, "No comment." The Dean statements would have gone virtually unnoticed had Democrats simply treated them like they weren't important. Biden was trying to start a fight in our party at a time when we need unity above all. Biden has said enough crazy things of his own in his lifetime, so he shouldn't feel superior. Biden and other "moderates" are compromised and unbelievable to the public because the are so wishy-washy and so afraid to offend Republicans. The only people a Democratic senator should be afraid to offend are members of the Democratic Party. We are Biden's constituency. If we encourage our leaders to be honest about their feelings and that's what Dean was being, don't worry, the red states will come to respect us.

[housewolf]

21. I agree with you...

Biden and Edwards should have contacted Dean privatelly and discussed their concerns about his statment. This should not have been carried out on tv.

[Career Prole]

13. Did CNN ever mention this headline...

...or these facts?

From Bush, Unprecedented Negativity
Scholars Say Campaign Is Making History With Often-Misleading Attacks
Scholars and political strategists say the ferocious Bush assault on Kerry this spring has been extraordinary, both for the volume of attacks and for the liberties the president and his campaign have taken with the facts. Though stretching the truth is hardly new in a political campaign, they say the volume of negative charges is unprecedented -- both in speeches and in advertising.

Three-quarters of the ads aired by Bush's campaign have been attacks on Kerry. Bush so far has aired 49,050 negative ads in the top 100 markets, or 75 percent of his advertising. Kerry has run 13,336 negative ads -- or 27 percent of his total. The figures were compiled by The Washington Post using data from the Campaign Media Analysis Group of the top 100 U.S. markets. Both campaigns said the figures are accurate.

The assault on Kerry is multi-tiered: It involves television ads, news releases, Web sites and e-mail, and statements by Bush spokesmen and surrogates -- all coordinated to drive home the message that Kerry has equivocated and "flip-flopped" on Iraq, support for the military, taxes, education and other matters.

"There is more attack now on the Bush side against Kerry than you've historically had in the general-election period against either candidate," said University of Pennsylvania professor Kathleen Hall Jamieson, an authority on political communication. "This is a very high level of attack, particularly for an incumbent."

Washington Post article

We got bashed by "unprecedented negativity", and now (finally) someone is hitting back with precedented negativity.

I'm all for it. Break out the bat, Dr. Dean!

[lynne]

23. Hitting back, yes -

- but hitting the wrong target.

The article you reference is about Bush being negative towards Kerry. Dean's remarks were taken to be negative towards all Republicans.

HUGE difference.

[Career Prole]

28. If you believe "Bush" himself was going negative you weren't paying

attention.
Bush worked through surrogates and claimed to be above the fray.
Chief among these surrogates was the RNC and Ken Mehlman.

[sendero]

20. The only way..

.... we are ever going to take the party back from the "go along to get along", "I've got mine", "I never saw a piece of Republican legislation I didn't like" whores is with some infighting.

Dean's doing what he was hired to do. The naysayers can pack sand.

[leesa]

26. Why are you helping the media spread the rumor of discord?

Non-Republicans are united like never before. You believe Biden?

[Leafy Geneva]

27. Ho hum

There has been no damage to the party. Some Democrats don't agree completely with some of Dean's recent statements. So what.

I'm not fighting. Who's fighting???

Is CNN trying to start something here?

[trogdor]

29. Edwards and Biden should STFU.

Say you're an offensive lineman, and you overhear the quarterback saying something you don't like to the press. Do you make holes in the line and let him get blitzed? Hell fucking no. Why is it that Ed Gillespie could say any inane bullshit the entire time he was GOP chairman, and you didn't hear nary a peep from the GOP rank and file, but the second Howard Dean opens his mouth, you have asswipes in HIS OWN PARTY ready to jump down his throat? Somebody needs to do whatever it is the GOP does with its dissident members and do it NOW.

[nightfox02]

30. biden especially so...

you cant tell if biden is republican or dem half the time...

he needs to just put a weathervane behind his desk in d.c. and go home...

both politicos are freaking useless to us at this point. Dean should go on tv and disown both of their sorry asses....

[smartvoter]

31. Oh, Here you go. Flame time. I said the same yesterday and this

place came unglued for it.

[Cha]

32. And so says the Liberal Oasis..

in so many words..
Check out this thread by Larkspur..

"Other Dems should be following Dean’s lead in that situation, echoing his messages so they will be heard and have an opportunity to resonate.

The last thing they should be doing is giving the GOP a win by echoing their attacks on Dean.

And for Biden to get on his high horse about good politics, minutes after folding in the Bolton battle, is nothing short of ludicrous."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1832410

[WyLoochka]

33. CNN didn't state the "obvious"

It is Biden and Edwards who "caused" the "infighting" by being such total traitors to the party chairman in public. He is the Chairman BECAUSE he speaks out and the people demanded that he made Chairman instead of some suck-up.

There is nothing wrong with what Dean said, it was some of that good old tasty "red meat," which many of us are starving for - we aren't all vegetarians 'ya know. And it was served up at a meeting of progressives - not to pantywaist groveling DLCers.

It is TRUE that many Repubs have not worked a day in their lives. Their leader is the quintessential example. The inheritee is STILL not working - he's out exercising for 2-3 hours every afternoon. It's true - we all know it. It needs to be said out loud. The remark Dean made was in the same vein as Truman's famous "red meat" remark - "you want to live like a Republican vote for Democrats."

This criticizing IS the number one problem with Dems, as far as I'm concerned - a complete and utter chronic failure to stick up for each other. It is THE reason we have lost ground for thirty fucking years and why we will continue to lose ground lest it stop right now.

Why would anyone vote for Dems if they can't even stick up for their own Chairman? Mehlman says a lot of stuff that some or many Repubs may not agree with - we'll never know because they wouldn't be caught dead criticizing their chairman in public. It's plain old common sense. That is WHY they win. They stick together, they stick up for each other.

[nightfox02]

34. so true and good quote from Truman...I have learned something today :)

But yes, Edwards and Biden need to go ride their tricycles into irrelevence or the green party whichever tangent you prefer...

The Democratic Party can no longer sustain spineless leadership...

We are mad as hell and are not going to take this republican bullshit that is killing our bank accounts and our troops in the global war on the FUCKING MIDDLE CLASS!