Does this Senate prayer cross the line?

[paineinthearse]

Given yesterday at the opening of the Senate. DU discussion started yesterday, took 24 hours to get the transcript from Thomas. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1832822#1835472

My belief is that Senators' first two priorities are to serve their constituents and the US Constitution.

http://www.worldnewsstand.net/2001/article/33A.htm

Oath Required By The Constitution And By Law To Be Taken By Senators:

"I, A__ B__, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God." (5 U.S.C. 3331.)

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http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

Senate -- (Senate - June 06, 2005),

The Senate met at 2 p.m. and was called to order by the President pro tempore (Mr. STEVENS).

prayer

The Chaplain, Dr. Barry C. Black, offered the following prayer:

Let us pray.

Almighty God, creator and sustainer of the universe, take the misshapen clay of our lives and remake us into vessels fit for Your use. Remind us that we may make plans, but You have the final word.

Help us to remember that even when we think we are right, You judge our motives. Give us the wisdom to share our plans with You so that You will order our steps.

Today, bless all who labor in the legislative branch of Government. Deliver us from pride and help us to avoid evil paths. Remind us that our No. 1 priority should be to please You. Empower each Senator to embrace honesty and truth as he or she seeks to keep America strong. We pray this in Your holy Name.

Amen.

[nickinSTL]

1. I think ALL Senate prayer crosses the line

there should be NO organized PRAYER in the Senate.

PERIOD.

[jobycom]

2. All prayers in the Senate cross the line

They should instead recite the Preamble to the Constitution and read the Bill of Rights.

[trotsky]

3. Personally, any prayer in a PUBLIC building is offensive to me.

It assumes everyone present believes in the entity being prayed to.

But yeah, it's specifically annoying when our elected officials are supposed to be serving US, not a man in the sky.

[MemphisTiger]

4. No, because it does not call for an establishment of national

religion. Also, it didn't say which God to please.

[trotsky]

7. Fails the Lemon test.

As established by Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971).

First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion; finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion."

Since that is the current judicial standard, the prayers are unconstitutional and should someone sue to challenge them, the SC would either have to end the practice or change precedent and declare the Lemon decision invalid.

[MemphisTiger]

13. Interesting, BUT

"an excessive government entanglement with religion."

This quote is exteremly vauge. How is praying to a god that is not specific like Jesus, or Allah advancing any religion. Also, are all senators forced to pray? That is the question. Or can they sit or stand there basically having a moment of silence while others pray.

[trotsky]

15. You don't even have to go as far as that part.

First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose

Tell me how an opening prayer serves a "secular legislative purpose."

Go ahead. Try.

[MemphisTiger]

16. That's an interesting point

I've always wondered why we have a chaplain paid for by the government but no rabbi or non mainstream pastor.

[tritsofme]

19. I'm almost positive there have been rabbis

That have served as chaplains.

But someone can correct if I'm wrong.

[Zhade]

25. We shouldn't have any. It's using MY atheist tax dollars to push religion.

It's baldly unconstitutional.

[ieoeja]

30. There has NEVER been a Roman Catholic Chaplain ...

... in the Senate. They came real close to selecting one for the first time ever this last go 'round. The Religious Right has been dampening down their anti-Catholic rhetoric in recent years to lure RCs to their side. But a Roman Catholic chaplain in the Senate was more than they could stomach.

[Toots]

27. It is advancing religion not any religion

I don't care what god you pray to but if you pray to a God you are practicing religion. It is not the government's duty to practice religion or advocate either for or against. It should just not ever be mentioned.

[tritsofme]

18. But could the judiciary instruct a seperate and equal organ of government

on how to conduct its internal proceedings?

A case like this would never be heard.

[trotsky]

20. It probably could, if a member of that "equal organ" sued.

That's the rub. The petitioner would have to have legal standing, and no politician would dare stand up to the practice because the good Christian folk back home (a majority in probably every single district) would kick him out of office.

But keep in mind, the Supreme Court has ruled when presidents had to turn over tapes & notes (Nixon) as well as undergo a civil court case while in office (Clinton). I'd say it's pretty clear the S.C. feels it can "instruct a seperate and equal organ of government on how to conduct its internal proceedings."

[tritsofme]

24. Good points

But even if a member of Congress who would have standing sued, I just don't see any court taking on the case on the grounds that Congress can determine its own rules per Article I Section 5.

And that since there have been opening prayers since Congress' inception that surely it wasn't the intention of the Framers for the 1st Amendment to prohibit such a prayer.

[trotsky]

26. Rules of proceedings, yes.

But the prayer is a ceremonial service, having nothing to do with the legislative function of the body. It's a gray area, to be sure.

[Toots]

28. The constitution instructs not the judiciary

The judiciary just interprets the constitution.

[Igel]

36. Didn't realize the Senate prayer was a statute.

I learn something new every day. I thought it was a privilege provided for by the rules of the Senate.

[trotsky]

37. So cut the snarkiness and just say what you think.

That the Senate offering up a Christian prayer is no big deal, and atheists and members of minority religions should just get over it, right?

[Igel]

40. Sorry about the snarkiness.

I'm usually alone at home with a kid, on whom snarkiness is entirely wasted.

If it were a statute, though, I'd agree with you; it still wouldn't establish a religion, but it would violate precedent and SCOTUS rulings. There may be a point to be found in the funding of the chaplain's position, however.

Otherwise, the occasional public prayer doesn't bother me much if it doesn't bother the audience. I still find Thanksgiving Day to be a bigger violation of church and state, and don't know where the US prez gets the authority for proclaiming it, or Congress for declaring the day a holiday.

[gaspee]

14. And once again...

We atheists are left out in the cold.

I wonder how they would like it if someone got up there and prayed to the purple, two-headed godess of tikjui.

Yeah, thought so.

I think we all know which god they're talking about.

I find it extremely offensive.

[MemphisTiger]

17. I meant to include that in my post. The atheist were the ones

that get the shaft on the whole deal. Is it a requirment for all senators to be present at the prayer?

[trotsky]

22. Probably not a requirement.

But then, it's not a "requirement" that one stand for the Pledge of Allegiance in school, but when the JW kids or others don't, it singles them out for being different from the majority and targets them for ostracism.

[Warpy]

5. "Who is in charge of hearing god's final word on any subject???

That's the problem. That's why we separate church and state. Too many people out there think they know what god wants, but they never, ever seem to agree on it.

[Al-CIAda]

6. I thought declairing Moon the savior and world leader in the Senate

crossed the line, but I guess not -so this is no more constitutional,and not as surprising.

[ThorsHammer]

8. It doesn't bother me, but I can understand if others are upset (nt)

[davidinalameda]

9. no

there are many ways to please one's deity

the Senate could start by voting down some of these judges that are anti-consumer; anti-civil rights, and the like

they could revisit the bankruptcy bill which hurts the little guy

helping the less fortunate and the powerless are great ways to please one's deity

[dchill]

41. Obviously,

you are talking about another deity than the one in the Senate prayer...

[BattyDem]

10. They were elected to serve us, not God!

I don't care what their personal beliefs are ... when they are on the floor of the US Senate, I expect them to do what is right for the country and the people that elected them.

Yes, I know ... fat chance! :eyes:

[jojo54]

11. IMHO

it's a direct violation of separation of church and state. period!

[usregimechange]

12. No but the fact that I PAID FOR IT does!

[mcscajun]

21. James Madison opposed the idea of a Senate chaplin

"If Religion consists in voluntary acts of individuals, singly or voluntarily associated, and if it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their constituents should discharge their religious duties, let them, like their constituents, do so at their own expense," wrote Madison. "How small a contribution from each member of Congress would suffice for the purpose! How just would it be in its principle! How noble in its exemplary sacrifice to the genius of the Constitution; and the divine rights of conscience! Why should the expense of a religious worship for the Legislature, be paid by the public, more than that for the Executive or Judiciary branches of the Government?"


And as to the cost:
The Senate chaplain, who draws a $130,000 annual salary, is expected to lead prayers for lawmakers every workday, but often the chamber is empty at the times prayers are recited. The chaplain is also asked to provide religious counseling to the lawmakers, their families and staff. (Total annual cost of the chaplain's office is $315,000.)

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5089&abbr=pr&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1286

As far as I'm concerned, All Senate prayer crosses the line.

[Zhade]

23. Yes, it's an unconstitutional establishment of religion.

NT!

[jonnyblitz]

29. HELL yes. nt

[paineinthearse]

31. Office & Duties of the Senate Chaplain

http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/chaplain.htm



Chaplain's Office

Throughout the years, the United States Senate has honored the historic separation of Church and State, but not the separation of God and State. The first Senate, meeting in New York City on April 25, 1789, elected the Right Reverend Samuel Provost, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, as its first Chaplain. During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord of our Nation. The role of the Chaplain as spiritual advisor and counselor has expanded over the years from a part-time position to a full-time job as one of the Officers of the Senate. The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian.

Duties of the Senate Chaplain

In addition to opening the Senate each day in prayer, Chaplain Black’s duties include counseling and spiritual care for the Senators, their families and their staffs, a combined constituency of six thousand people. Chaplain Black’s days are filled with meeting Senators about spiritual and moral issues, assisting Senators’ staffs with research on theological and biblical questions, teaching Senate Bible study groups, encouraging such groups as the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast, and facilitating discussion and reflection small groups among Senators and staff.

In order to stay informed of the needs of the Senate community, Chaplain Black maintains a program with a volunteer liaison in each office to assist him. A member of his staff directs this program.

[paineinthearse]

32. Biography, Rear Admiral Barry C. Black (Ret.), Chaplain of the US Senate

http://www.senate.gov/reference/common/person/barry_black.htm


Barry C. Black
Chaplain

On June 27, 2003, Rear Admiral Barry C. Black (Ret.) was elected (:wtf: he wasn't on my ballot) the 62nd Chaplain of the United States Senate. He began working in the Senate on July 7, 2003. Prior to coming to Capitol Hill, Chaplain Black served in the U.S. Navy for over twenty-seven years, ending his distinguished career as the Chief of Navy Chaplains. The Senate elected its first chaplain in 1789.

Commissioned as a Navy Chaplain in 1976, Chaplain Black’s first duty station was the Fleet Religious Support Activity in Norfolk, Virginia. Subsequent assignments include Naval Support Activity, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland; First Marine Aircraft Wing, Okinawa, Japan; Naval Training Center, San Diego, California; USS BELLEAU WOOD (LHA 3) Long Beach, California; Naval Chaplains School Advanced Course, Newport, Rhode Island; Marine Aircraft Group THIRTY-ONE, Beaufort, South Carolina; Assistant Staff Chaplain, Chief of Naval Education and Training, Pensacola, Florida; and Fleet Chaplain, U.S. Atlantic Fleet, Norfolk, Virginia.

As Rear Admiral, his personal decorations included the Navy Distinguished Service Medal, the Legion of Merit Medal, Defense Meritorious Service Medal (two medals), Meritorious Service Medals (two awards), Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals (two awards), and numerous unit awards, campaign, and service medals.

PERSONAL INFORMATION

Chaplain Black is a native of Baltimore, Maryland and an alumnus of Oakwood College, Andrews University, North Carolina Central University, Eastern Baptist Seminary, Salve Regina University, and United States International University. In addition to earning Master of Arts degrees in Divinity, Counseling, and Management, he has received a Doctorate degree in Ministry and a Doctor of Philosophy degree in Psychology.

Chaplain Black has been selected for many outstanding achievements. Of particular note, he was chosen from 127 nominees for the 1995 NAACP Renowned Service Award for his contribution to equal opportunity and civil rights. He also received the 2002 Benjamin Elijah Mays Distinguished Leadership Award from The Morehouse School of Religion. In 2004, the Old Dominion University chapter of the NAACP conferred on him the Image Award, "Reaffirming the Dream -- Realizing the Vision" for military excellence.

Chaplain Barry C. Black is married to the former Brenda Pearsall of St. Petersburg, Florida. They have three sons: Barry II, Brendan, and Bradford.

[ISUGRADIA]

33. It's telling that the only oath in the constitution has no reference 2 God

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of the President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

[paineinthearse]

34. Exactly. The presidential oath and the senatorial oath direct loyalty to

the CONSTITUTION.

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. It only crosses the line if

it offends a member of the Senate. I am not aware of any Senators who have raised any objections.

[LittleClarkie]

38. Seems like a small thing to get upset about

Rather like getting upset by "In God We Trust" on your money. It's there. It's going to stay there.

Surely there's something bigger to get upset about. Minutes, dead people, tortured people... stuff like that.

[trotsky]

39. For those of us who think out-of-control religiosity...

is responsible for most of those things, it's something worth getting upset over.

[paineinthearse]

42. Letter to my Senators

Senator,

I know you are a religious man. There is a time and place for religion, but God should NOT be a Senator's "No. 1 priority should be to please You...", as envoked Monday by the Senate's chaplain, Dr. Barry C. Black. A Senator serves his constitutents and is guided by the principles of the Constitution. You oath of office:

"I, A__ B__, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God." (5 U.S.C. 3331.)

Many of us think out-of-control religiosity is responsible for much of the division in our country; this is something worth getting upset over.

Please review the prayer offered by the Senate chaplain, Barry C. Black on Monday, and tell me if you agree it went over the line.

I see no value in the Congress having Chaplains and would be in favor of cutting off all funding, perhaps channeling it instead to a program that benefits "we the people" such as toll-free phone numbers for the Congressional switchboard.

======================================================

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

Senate -- (Senate - June 06, 2005),
The Senate met at 2 p.m. and was called to order by the President pro tempore (Mr. STEVENS).
prayer
The Chaplain, Dr. Barry C. Black, offered the following prayer:

Let us pray.

Almighty God, creator and sustainer of the universe, take the misshapen clay of our lives and remake us into vessels fit for Your use. Remind us that we may make plans, but You have the final word.
Help us to remember that even when we think we are right, You judge our motives. Give us the wisdom to share our plans with You so that

You will order our steps.

Today, bless all who labor in the legislative branch of Government. Deliver us from pride and help us to avoid evil paths. Remind us that our No. 1 priority should be to please You. Empower each Senator to embrace honesty and truth as he or she seeks to keep America strong. We pray this in Your holy Name.

Amen.

[paineinthearse]

44. Reply from my junior senator

Subject: Responding to your message
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:07:57 +0000

June 9, 2005

Dear Mr. ():

Thank you for contacting me. I
appreciate that you took the time to write
and am glad to hear your concerns. Your
message has been forwarded to the
appropriate staff in my Senate office. I
take into account the correspondence my
office receives. However, due to the amount
of email we receive we are unable to respond
individually to each message.
Again, thank you for writing.


Sincerely,

John F. Kerry
United States Senator

[lumpy]

43. All i know is

that the prayer ain't gonna work. Never has, never will. Just bow your heads in reverance and then get back to the 'misshapen clay of your lives'.

[undeterred]

45. I don't see it as establishment of religion

but as an acknowledgment of the solemn purpose of government. Its a piece of tradition, not a statute.

The prayer itself is loosely Judaeo Christian in tone, but it couldn't be said to point to a particular religion. The specific content is humility and a human need for wisdom. If passing these thoughts by some of the Senators occasionally makes even a tiny impact their thick skinned arrogance, I don't think thats a bad thing.