Dean and extreme language, and I don't mean his

[LittleClarkie]

Flogging?
Shiv?
Bash?

The comments in question from people like Edwards, Richardson and Pelosi were awfully mild to be called such things, weren't they? He's not being crucified. He's being criticized.

You see, there's a difference. I know because I've had to deal with alot of bashing vs criticism on Kerry. And when I have defended Kerry the way some defend Dean, I have often been called an apologist or an operative or a sychophant or just merely delusional. And I don't mean just here.

The distinction keeps sliding to one side or the other depending on whether the person in question is someone a person likes or not. Criticism becomes bashing when the person being criticized is someone you like. Bashing becomes criticism when the person being criticized is someone you don't like. And then there is the inevitable "How dare you tell me that I can't speak out when I see something wrong. We in the Democratic Party aren't like the Republicans. We don't have to march in lock step."

And as is often pointed out with Kerry, people should be allowed to criticize. It's when it slides into outright bashing that it becomes a problem. If I see someone say Howard is a hothead loudmouth who needs to shut the fuck up, I will defend him.

But I see a double standard. Dean's alright by me, but he's not the Second Coming. If people disagree, why is it wrong for them to say so just because it's Howard? And God forbid I should be asked to make a choice between Howard and the Party. Because right now, Howard IS the Party. If you're against the Party, you are in part against what Howard is trying to do FOR the Party. And I don't think he would approve of that.

I hope I've been able to explain what I mean clearly. It's hard for me to articulate, but this has been bugging me for a day or two.

[William769]

1. I did not Back Mr. Dean in the primaries

But I like what he's saying now & I hope he keeps it up.

[Teaser]

2. So it's been bugging you.

I'll stick with "shiv".

[LittleClarkie]

3. It's been bugging me because it's wrong and a double standard

I'm not talking personal preference here.

Pelosi did not "shiv" Dean, she just took exception with something he said. We should be able to do that with our leaders, even Dean.

[valis]

4. Even Clark?

[LittleClarkie]

6. Nominal Clarkie. Put Kerry in and that's more comparable

Yes, even Kerry.

Gov. Warner and Harry Reid have recently had some things to say about Kerry and his campaign. I may disagree with them wildly, but they have every right to say what they think, and I hope I am never caught under such circumstances saying that someone who is merely offering a criticism is "shiving" Kerry or somesuch.

There is a difference. Criticism is not bashing.

[napi21]

10. Your right about being able to criticize, but did you hear the comments

made by the talking heads AFTER Ms. Pelosi made her criticism? They said some of the Dems in Washington are upset with Deans remarks because they think it will cost them votes!

I think that's true too!

I for one, am really tired of the palitically correct speak that always comes out of a politicians mouth! The same comments that Howard made, have been said by many other Dems, except they couched their words so cleverly, nobody understood what the heck they said!

[LittleClarkie]

12. Well, that is a factor and it would certainly be coutnter productive

Aside from a politician trying to save his hide, we have to remember that we really do want Dems to keep their jobs, and Dean is supposed to be about making the party stronger. Losing votes won't make us stronger.

That said, some of it is unfair because the media is after him. As usual really. Maybe he's decided "fuck it, damned if I do, damned if I don't, so I might as well be myself."

[second edition]

5. YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

DEAN IS NOTHING MORE THAN A MERE HUMAN. HE CAN AND DOES MAKE MISTAKES. HE SOMETIMES SAYS THINGS WITHOUT THINKING THEM THROUGH (IN MY OPINION) AND -DO I DARE SAY IT- I THINK HE IS WRONG SOMETIMES. I SUPPORTED HIM FOR CHAIRMAN, I HAVE EVEN GIVEN MONEY SEVERAL TIMES WHEN HE HAS REQUESTED IT. I REALLY LIKE HIS GRASSROOTS EFFORT. HOWEVER, I THINK HIS CURRENT APPROACH OF ATTACKING REPUBS ON CHRISTIANITY AND JAIL TIME AND WORK ETHICS, WILL NOT WIN US ANY ADDITIONAL SUPPORT. WE NEED TO AT TRACK NEW VOTERS WITH A BETTER MESSAGE BASED ON PRINCIPALS THAN THE REPUBS. SURE, THE BASE LOVES HIS COMMENTS,BUT TELL ME HOW DO WE BENEFIT AS A PARTY INTERESTED IN GROWTH AND ADDITIONAL VOTER SUPPORT. IF HE WANTS TO CALL UP THE REPUBS ON SOMETHING IT SHOULD BE THEIR BAD POLICIES AND IDEALS THAT HURT THE AVERAGE PERSON. THERE I SAID IT, I CAN'T BELIEVE I HAD THE NERVE TO CRITICIZE DEAN.

[NoPasaran]

7. You might to switch to decaf

For your next cup
:donut:

[valis]

11. Dean meant exactly what he said. And I love him for that.

[CWebster]

8. Context matters

Is the criticism directed at target criticizing the Republicans or is the target criticizing those who criticize the Republicans?

I'm sick of cowardly Dems led to believe they must pander to the Middle according to the Right's game plan instead of building up the opposition bandwagon as the hottest wheels in town.

Build it and they will come.

[Proud_Lefty]

9. It's much more than Dean

It's another attempt at manipulation by the media, and people keep falling for it, even when the manipulation is weak and easily debunked. If the journalists claim that Dean speaks lies, then they need to do their jobs and give us facts supporting their position. But they aren't. They twist a few words here and there to meet their agenda, and all the networks play it with their deceptive spins, even adding or changing words that weren't even used. I heard Dean set the records straight more than 4 times last week for things the media are focusing on today. And it's really galling that they are attacking Dean for being aggressive while Bush is refusing Bolton paperwork, Mehlman is lying through his teeth and the whole GOP is having gala dinners for DeLay to show their support on his ethics violations they can't defend.

Two things I can't stand. First is to be lied to. Second is to have someone try to manipulate me with those lies. Our country has been under attack by this administration, through the media, for far too long and if we don't fight back, well .... That's something too grim to think about.

[valis]

13. Yup. And add a very unflattering photo to PROVE their point...