At the risk of being flamed... sensenbrenner

[katsy]

Am I mistaken or did the hearing take a turn for the worse when maybe he suspected border control, the minutemen or his real id act came under attack? These are all policies he supports.

Admittedly, my attention was divided, but here's my fear:

IF sensenbrenner spins this as an attack on his bill or to the question of border security, it's not an illegal procedure by sensen (cutting off debate) that will be regurgitated time and again.

That won't cause nearly the outrage that will rain down on the Dems if they are perceived to be anti-border control.

I'm NOT throwing this out to debate the minutemen or border control and am against the real id act.

Taking into account that msm reports that the majority of Americans want border control strengthened, this is not an issue the Dems should play fast and loose with.

There's enough civil liberties coming under attack in the patriot act, specifically the liberties of American citizens. Protecting citizens rights would... or should spill over to everyone.

If the debate focuses on illegal or legal immigrants, the public perception would be that the Dems are weak on border security.

Maybe I'm paranoid or should have paid more attention. I just don't want the patriot act to pass and hope the Dems keep the focus on the civil rights of citizens in order to gain broad support for it's defeat.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[katsy]

2. I'm really sorry about that.

My intent was to examine the best strategy for defeating the pat act. If it's defeat automatically protects every person's right, legal, illegal, green, purple... I'd be quite satisfied. I don't know if that's possible! That's why I threw this out for discussion. If the road to that defeat means you address issues related to citizens in the public forum, so be it. Maybe that's not the way it works.

I wasn't attentive enough to everything being said and would gladly accept correction. But thanks for your "tolerance" anyway.

I want to live long enough to see the Dems win back congress and the presidency.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Ok here is where yuo come in

Sensen hates the Fourth Ammmendment, (sneak and peak, they want it back in there).

Sensenbrenner does not respect the Constitution

He engaged in Stalinist tactics,

Stalinist tactics

Stalinist tactics

Repeat often

[katsy]

4. That's not even in question.

You know that.

I know that.

Everyone on DU knows that.

I was wrong about WHEN he started his implode. I thought someone was attacking his stupid id act or border controls when he melted.

It had to do with guantanamo per another thread about a CBS story.

The Dems should run with this.

I want to win the next 1000 elections and am being overly sensitive about framing issues.

If the debate turned to the right of a convicted mass murderer/rapist of children to not have to wear a tracking bracelet... I would have silently begged that not one Dem would open their mouth. NOT on the merits of the issue, but on fear of public perception.

I was wrong.

:banghead:

[Erika]

6. The GOP have refused to fund border control

Why should the dems have a problem?

[Old and In the Way]

7. Big Difference: US Border Patrols vs. Vigillantes

Because Bush Republicanism is starving the federal budget, people are taking the law into their own hands. That's the way we start the long spiral into anarchy.

He's a anti-democratic fascist of the 1st degree. Remember when he got caught changing/adding legal language into bills that had passed committees? He's a pompous, arrogant fascist who thinks he's presiding over a juanta.

[katsy]

11. I remember when he did that.

And am well aware of the gop spin machine and their attacks. The pat act should be defeated. It'll take a lot of public support to do that. I suspect the attacks on the Dems will be viscious in the fight to pass it.

That said, I'll feel a whole lot better when the focus turns to the Downing Street Minutes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. It is the GOP taht is refusing to fund border patrol

now here is your frame, why does Sensenbrenner hate the Constitution?

Hell make it broader, why does the GOP hate us for our freedoms?

This is not just about winning but saving the Republic

[katsy]

13. Okay.

Saving the Republic is exactly what's at stake. We need to win to do that.

It SUX being the minority party.

Every time bush fucks up, I think "great, he's going down". He gets a get out of jail card.

Every time the gop passes some piece of shit legislation, I think "no one's going to stand for this". They do.

[Erika]

5. Bush and the GOP have refused to fund border control guards

Why would democrats be seen as weak?

[katsy]

8. it was about guantanamo anyway...

but sensen authored the real id act and he's at odds with bush on border control. Why would he hesitate provide cover for the pat act by accusing Dems of being weak on homeland security?

[lonestarnot]

10. He may have said that, but all that sticks in my mind is his splash to

democracy...we'll replay that and see who comes out on top in the long haul. Freak won't make any points on what he did. Not worried in the least.

[katsy]

12. THANK YOU!

I'll keep repeating "freak won't make any points" because that's EXACTLY what I'm afraid of!