A warning to Dr. Dean: never mess with the god stuff

[PurityOfEssence]

Much as I've had many problems with him in the past and fought hard against him in the primaries, he's fabulously suited for chairing the party and undeniably a very good guy.

Don't mess with the ooga-booga realm, though; that'll mess up everything.

Yep, the Republican Party is a racist, privileged country club that preys upon the fears of the weak and confused to give them enough groundswell to get close enough in elections to steal them. Coupled with the fearmongering from the press they control, they're poised to rule the world.

Dean is doing great things by stirring up a ruckus in the red hinterlands, but this god stuff is beyond dangerous. We are the most religious country in the industrialized world. The elephant in the room must be addressed, but tread lightly, good doctor.

The struggle for our national future will be fought in religious terms; those of us who don't believe don't have a right to speak. I have faith that liberal christians can sway enough people to see the obvious (given fair voting, which is far from a given) yet even if reason prevails, we'll be left with a discourse that NECESSITATES belief. Mere survival for those not megawealthy will be bought at the price of much more religion in society and government. The Democratic Party is too cowed to not voice praise for faith-based charities, and that's not going to change. Faith-based charities are a lie of the soul, and they are poison. They are odious erosions of society.

Regardless, the good doctor should be very careful about thumping on the Bible thumpers. As for the rest of what he's doing, let 'er rip.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Why shouldn't he?

He has proclaimed he's a Christian. So why shouldn't he stand up against these people who have hijacked our faith? He's just telling the truth.

"I don't give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell."~Harry Truman

[PurityOfEssence]

15. Because it's too easily misinterpreted

There's so much ammunition against the monarchists that can be brought to bear without even MENTIONING religion. If you question someone's religion, or how that guess affects affiliation, you've opened the floodgates of irrational and defensive response.

Let others question the sincerity of belief. Much as I cheer his combativeness, and revel in the fact that these statements get press and shed light on the ugliness of the system, he DOES have to keep somewhat above the fray.

Religion is primal. It's something that needs to be addressed, but very carefully.

Stick to reality: the systematic fucking of the poor, working- and middle-classes and the overt subjugation of the entire world. Much as religion is used as a tool to justify things, hitting the issues as feudal greed works much better. Yeah, religion is used to justify xenophobia, but reframing the arguments as shit-headed greed and selfishness is much better. NEVER let yourself be open to criticism as anti-religious in this country. Any toehold will be used against you.

Here's the big point: religion is the third rail of life; it's the cosmic trump card. Avoid dealing with it at all costs. There are SO MANY AVENUES to ply to shed light on the uglinesses of the conservatives.

Why tinker around with supernatural superstitions that might cause people to slam shut the doors of thought? Deal with the obvious and tangible.

The object is to sway people. Those of belief won't be swayed if their guess is called into question. Those who've been programmed along religious lines are best approached secularly.

[smartvoter]

2. I respectfully disagree. Some of the "God stuff" is going too far. nt

[FreedomAngel82]

3. In what ways?

Give examples please. If you never fight them they'll always stay bigots and assholes. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen as the old saying goes.

[smartvoter]

9. OMG. The judge battles. Schiavo. Secretary Fallwell. Zygotes on parade.

Enough is enough. Separation of Church and State is being demolished.

On edit: I think you mistook who I was responding to. I was responding to the author of the thread. Not you.

[OneTwentyoNine]

19. Stem cell research......n/t

[Carolab]

4. The elephant in the room must be addressed.

Here's the best way: "Don't Think Of An Elephant" (George Lakoff)

What part of just standing up for what WE believe didn't you get?

[FreedomAngel82]

6. Exactly

If they can proclaim their beliefs and fight so can we. I'm tired of these people and their hateful and bigot ways in which they proclaim is "moral values."

[autorank]

5. Well, maybe it should be handled differently by our party wimps.

I saw a video of John Danforth replayed recently, I think it was on Crooks and Liars. He said that the Republican Party was being taken over by Christian Extremists. He spoke at some length about this at some sort of press conference. It reminded me that I'd actually seen it when it ran originally on some news channel.

Why didn't our party elders trumpet this from the heights instead of the odious response that the hypocrite Lieberman made criticizing Dean. Perhaps if they'd done that, you would have known about it and mentioned it in your post. Danforth is an ordained Episcopal minister. He speaks with great authority to some people. This should have been front and center.

Having said that, I do agree with you that the religious affiliations of the our opponents should not be featured. I'm convinced that people want to hear "EXTREMISTS." That's what all the polling evidence shows that many Americans think, those who want the Democrats to really fight hard to save Social Security, get us out of the Iraq mess, and stop the drift into and Iran-West type of country.

I agree also that Dean is well suited for his job and that the grass roots work is actually much needed. The same people you say will be offended are noticing that Dean is coming to their state and he's getting a good reception. He went South almost immediately and when has a DNC Chairman made that part of the country a priority.

I think Dean is just fine, needs a bit of coaching. I also believe that the arrogant "perfumed Princes" in the Senate like Lieberman and Biden need a reality check.

N.B. On calling Lieberman a hypocrite, I would say this. He spoke out on Clinton's moral lapse early on. Yet when Bolton comes before the Senate with all the evidence of interpersonal harassment and the stunning allegations offered by his ex-wife, Lieberman all of a sudden can't decide which way he'll vote. That qualifies as hypocrisy.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. I think Dean should stay himself

and the way he is now. Nobody likes a phoney.

[autorank]

10. Best advice yet. Remember the CA Dem Convention

"I'm Howard Dean representing the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." Oh, yeah!!!

You're right. And then, there's always the theory touted recently that somebody had to say this on our side and Dean was the perfect candidate. Plus he's got some attack-dog credits built up. He's been awfully quiet lately.

[w13rd0]

17. Actually...

...I believe I've heard a number of references to the statement Danforth made. I believe it's Dean who I remember having mentioned it. Fairly recent interview. The GOP is misusing religion and religious adherents, and the radical right is misusing the GOP. They should be called on it, and those who consider themselves Christian should take a hard look at what it is they are supporting. I don't think Christ would approve.

[Melodybe]

8. I totally disagree, Dean is saying exactly what needs to be said

Are you in the south?

Cause Dean is pretty well liked here.

[snowbear]

11. What... would you rather he hung out with this guy?:

[Bravo411]

12. Screen-shot

I took this screen-shot from Yahoo News.
The question isn't whether what Dean said was good or bad, it's whether he was right or wrong. And I think this just goes to show that what he said was right.

[friesianrider]

14. Right on, Bravo...

And welcome to DU :hi:

[friesianrider]

13. Wholeheartedly disagree...

Unless you mean in a very simple sense: don't make fun of Christians.

I've been guilty myself of making fun of any Christian, which is wrong of me and any American. I've got nothing against Christians whatsoever, I just automatically assume they are fundies - also wrong of me.

But caving to this God-in-government bullshit? Puh-lease. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. Youve give these psychos an inch they'll take a mile. We're already living under the Christian Taliban - I don't want it to get worse. We can respect all religions, including fundies (which we should), without giving them the OK to rule the country.

[sandnsea]

16. No, hit the target

Extremimsts, fanatics, right wing Christian groups, country club Republicans, etc. Not broad based "I hate Republicans" who are 'white Christians who have never done an honest days work'. And, when you target something, make sure it has a purpose and the purpose is clear. Fox is a propaganda arm, so "I don't respond to Fox". Target, purpose, direct hit. It's not complicated.

[quaker bill]

18. For many people, God is implicit in discussions of moral values

You simply aren't going to be able to discuss moral values in the south without bringing God into the mix.

So, while I agree that theological proclamations should be off the menu, some religious content will be necessary. The Bible is full of advice on helping the poor, widowed, and orphaned. Liberals think we should be doing more of this, it is really just about that simple.

[truthisfreedom]

20. dear God, please protect me from your believers.

Dean is being smart about this. he's not running for office... he can say a lot of things that aren't pc without doing any damage to the Party.

[DemGa]

21. Dean pointing out the Pharisees; Go Dean!

Christians respect that. As for the people who are deeply brain-washed by current religious culture, there is no reaching them anyway.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

22. He needs to face this head on and I'd like to suggest how-

Stangely enough, I was thinking about this very issue to myself when up pops this thread. The Right has staked out a claim to "values" which he is countering beautifully. Now we need to get rid of this "Faith-based" crap terminology.

Faith is a substitute word for "church". They don't want to use that word for the simple reason that there are many churches and many sects and it makes you sit up and say, "now wait a minute" because we all know you're not supposed to go around mixing up church and state unless you want to end up like England under the Tudors.

When they say Faith, substitute Church. Church-based this and that.
Because that's what it is and that's what they don't want to say.

[candy331]

23. I guess you would have told Jesus Christ the same thing since he

was surrounded by rabid religious leaders, but that didn't stop him from castigating them showing them up for what they really were. The whole St Matthew is Jesus denouncing them, some denouncements include calling them hypocrites, whitewashed graves, vipers, sons of poisonous snakes, read it for yourself. Yes, in the end it got him killed, fearless leaders face that prospect, MLK, JFK.

[leesa]

24. Somebody better start messing with the "god stuff" or we will soon be

a theocracy. Got burkas? Go Dean.