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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:10 AM
Original message
More Debates About Building Nuclear Plants Needed
More Debates About Building Nuclear Plants Needed
16 June 2005



In the midst of the Energy Bill battle in the Senate, there is some consideration for building more nuclear plants. The news has been particularly silent on this issue and it appears it is not getting much discussion in the Senate either.

However some people do have concerns, I am one of them. I have posted about Bush’s plans to build more Nukes since he first mentioned it in late April. The Boston Globe has a good Editorial, that points out many of the issues surrounding building more nuclear plants.

Nuclear reconsidered

THE BUSH administration still denies that manmade greenhouse gases are changing the planet's climate. But one sign of how serious environmentalists consider the threat of global warming is that some are calling for a new look at nuclear power, which emits no carbon dioxide in generating electricity.

MORE & LINKS - http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=1089
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree - we need to reconsider Nuclear power
I've been thinking about this:

* It doesn't deplete our oil.

* It produces few greenhouse gasses.

* France generates 80% power from nuclear.

* Sweden generates 50% power from nuclear.

Where can we go to show our support?
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Do some research huh?
Against these lofty aspirations for nuclear, however, is the simple fact that -- while nuclear power provides 20 percent of US electricity -- no US utility has ordered and built a nuclear power plant since the 1970s. The chief reason for this is economic.

Since the widespread deregulation of power generation and distribution in the 1990s, it has been power-company investors, not ratepayers, who have borne the financial risk if a new plant proves uncompetitive in the market or, worse, suffers a severe accident. Power producers have looked at the numbers, including those caused by the uncertainties of the nuclear licensing process, and opted for plants fueled by natural gas or coal.

The financial case for existing nuclear plants has been enhanced by the improved productivity of the plants in recent years and by many owners' success in getting their licenses renewed for an extra 20 years. Also, recent steep increases in the cost of natural gas have somewhat improved the prospects of new nuclear power in competition with that fuel, but it is difficult to imagine a resurgence of nuclear energy unless Congress and the Bush administration get religion on climate change and sharply penalize -- through a carbon tax or a cap on carbon emissions -- the production of electricity with fossil fuels.

But not just cost has kept nuclear power from playing a greater role. There is also the danger of an operating accident, a serious waste disposal problem, the risk that countries or individuals will misuse civilian reactors to produce material for nuclear weapons, and the threat of terrorist sabotage. Two years ago, a group of Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard professors led by John Deutch and Ernest Moniz studied nuclear energy's future. The professors found that ''the nuclear option should be retained precisely because it is an important carbon-free source of power," but they also acknowledged the unresolved problems of the technology.

Moniz said this week that the 2003 study has had its intended effect of opening a ''healthy" new dialogue on nuclear energy. But he said he would liked to have seen more progress since 2003 on the resolution of the waste disposal issue.

Shirley Ann Jackson, president of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and chairman of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission during the Clinton administration, believes that progress has been made in developing new reactor designs that reduce the hazard of operating accidents. She is also encouraged by international cooperation among plant operators and nuclear regulators to share best practices and prevent a new Chernobyl that would undercut support for nuclear power globally.

Still, Jackson called waste disposal the industry's ''Achilles' heel." Innovative techniques can ''reduce the volume and nastiness of what you have," she said in an interview, but she believes a central solution, such as the proposed Yucca Mountain site in Nevada, is also needed. In the meantime, plants have begun to take spent fuel from storage in water pools, which in many cases have reached their capacity, and moved them into on-site dry steel and concrete casks, which are less vulnerable to terrorist attack.

As for the threat of nuclear proliferation, the Deutch-Moniz study calls for the United States and other nations with major nuclear power programs to offer guaranteed supplies of fuel and waste-management services to countries that forgo enrichment and reprocessing activities, which create the greatest potential for weapons production. This policy and aggressive antiproliferation enforcement by the International Atomic Energy Agency are needed whether or not new nuclear power plants are built in America or elsewhere.

If new reactor designs prove as safe as hoped and if progress is made on waste disposal, proliferation prevention, and protection against terrorism, nuclear power will deserve a chance to compete in the market against other sources of power that do not emit CO{-2}. But the market for any alternatives to fossil-fuel power will open up only after the United States decides to cap or tax the carbon emissions that fossil-fuel plants contribute to the atmosphere's greenhouse.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2005/06/16/nuclear_reconsidered/
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. This calls for more basic R&D
I'm one of the "cautiously pro-nuke" advocates, but there are so many engineering -- and political -- problems with nukes that I think it would be counterproductive to just dust off the old blueprints and start pouring concrete again.

I'm not looking to get into a fight, pro or anti -- simply proposing that we not overlook nuclear energy. The misery potential of an unplanned-for energy crisis such as would occur within 10 years of passing the "peak oil" point is so great that nothing should be overlooked. I don't care at all whether this leads to Capitalism or Socialism; it's the possibility of half our population freezing in the dark during a harsh winter that drives my concern.

Along those same lines, yes, development in other energy sources is vital, too. Even if solar or wind power are never developed for widespread industrial use, they could allow "residential units" -- houses and apartments -- to become much more energy-secure. We have far too much of a single-source economy in this world, with communities and industries relying on one type of energy, rather than a mix.

And the "suburban ideal" has got to go. There is no reason why we can't have liveable, attractive, centralized small towns instead of far-flung suburbs and other forms of sprawl. Anyone who has lived in a semi-rural college town (Amherst MA, Chico CA, Tempe AZ, Ames IA, New Brunswick NJ, Ithaca NY, etc.) knows it can be done.

--p!
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. "ALL URANIUM BACK IN THE GROUND":90% Urani. miners lung cancer: nuke war
Edited on Thu Jun-16-05 03:37 AM by oscar111
Nuclear power = Nuclear war

in the third world that is..., i am so tired of hearing every month that another tiny nation has siphoned off uranium to build bombs.

good grief, folks. Wake up.

They only order plants to have a way to build bombs on the sly.

got that? OK.

Consider how long it will be , with ten or so tinhorn nations gone nuclear, before regional A-wars erupt.

sending fallout our way.

ALL URANIUM BACK IN THE GROUND.

Miners get cancer before legit nuke plants get fuel, and after the fuel is used, we get cancer when storage leaks during its half-million years of radiating.

Man cant fly the shuttle flawlessly, so uranium is clearly too risky for feeble-brained Man to handle.

Our institutions are full of flaws. "Cultures" of

"we have always done it like this" keep springing up.

Cultures keep springing up all over human institutions..... like

"private does it best".. leading to cutting corners and shabby work.

"engineers dont take feedback from citizens"

"engineers will tell citizens stuff in our own lingo and you just better learn it all. We dont stoop to your level"

"engineers are RW and proud of it"

ALL URANIUM BACK IN THE GROUND.

{except tiny amounts for medics and physicists}
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Every Nuke plant = DIRTY BOMB for terra in a plane, diving on it
Edited on Thu Jun-16-05 03:57 AM by oscar111
Terras dont need to sneak a dirty bomb in.

every nuke plant is great for them.. just dive a plane into it.

the fallout spread by that as it burns will kill many.

We should be closing all nuke utilities, not adding to our woes.

Do you really believe those domes can take a jet engine plowing into them at .. is it 500 mph in a dive?

I doubt it.

Engineers thought the last shuttle was safe enough to launch. WRONG, engineers, wrong.
=============================
Enough wind power in texas and The dakotas to power the nation. Plus, offshore is popular too.. see the Denmark wind offshore setups.

Tera dives on a windmill -- no worries for us.
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Attitude: Engineers are OK.. some are, some not
Engineers as a group are a puzzle.

where i went to college, most every office door in engineering Dept. had RW cartoons on them lambasting the dems.

I like a good LW engineer just as i like a good LW person of any job type.

I dont understand why the general engineering group is so RW. This is in addition to the flawed "cultures" they often have which all job types can have. Which any institution can have.. such as "no ideas from outside will ever be considered. Only our own".

The RW dominance in engineering is a puzzle, but seems to be very real. Can you explain it?
Others have offered

"if not broke, dont fix it"
attitude

"the hi pay pampers them"

"for centuries, military was most of the jobs for engineers."

I only mean to critize two things, not all engineers --

1. the RW atmosphere
2. the usual flaws that arise in any human institution. Which uranium supercharges with danger.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Lovely attitude
Apparently engineers are worthless assholes who contribute nothing to society, eh? Oh, yeah, and all right-wingers, too.

I'm an engineer. I'm liberal. How do I fit into your idiotic little worldview, hmmmm? Maybe we can let the artists figure out how to make your medicines and computers and so forth. Since we're so worthless and all.

Take your Luddite attitude and shove it up your ass.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Thank you!
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Thank you for the detailed response - N/T
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. OP says UN will stop A-bomb making: well, failed so far
OP says rely on the UN agency to end proliferation.

hmmm. For years it has failed to do just that.

for years, every few months an new small nation bleeds off uranium and builds bombs.

arent you tired of hearing of new bombs?

ALL URANIUM BACK IN THE GROUND.

Man is not capable of handling it.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. no more nuke plants, nuke weapons, DU in metal, etc.


we don't have any way of making safe nuke plant waste.

nuke weapons are obscene.

DU is killing and maiming people.

nuke shit never goes away.
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davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. We need more Nuclear Power plants. Period
Safe, clean, affordable.

France is the model nation to follow in the area of power generation.

They saw the writing on the wall in the 1970's and now are Europe largest net EXPORTER of energy.

They recycle their nuclear waste so no need for a "yucca mountain" project. Why President Carter banned domestic nuclear recycling in 1979, I still don't understand.

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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Nukes are filthy: Period LOL
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 12:44 AM by oscar111
clean?

Are you willing to change careers and become a uranium miner, to prove your idea of "clean"?

Accidents happen.. while we are discussing

FOREIGN nukes,

let us mention the MELTDOWN in the ukraine twenty yrs ago.

Clean? Want that here?

Nope. Period.

"Accidents Happen"-- better to a windmill than tons of uranium five miles upwind.

We have wind power -- who needs any nukes? Only those who sell nukes.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. No More NUKES! Period.
They will not help the oil situation one iota!
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. As a LW engineering-type I gotta agree.
As the oil runs out, it is difficult to imagine our economic beast simply disposing of our current radioactive stockpile without harvesting energy from it first. The only question would seem to be the auspices, corporate or democratic.

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