I Need Help With My Freeper Sister

[Steely_Dan]

Having a family member who is a freeper is maddening. I cannot, for the life of me, make any headway.

Tonight we argued about WalMart and the employment of cheap labor overseas. All she could say was that without WalMart (and other corporations) these people would be without work altogether, etc. etc. She still thinks that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. She is convinced that the war on terror can actually be won. She states that our reason for being in Iraq is because we are bringing them democracy (even though I go through the whole WMD thing and that Bush lied). ..I tell her that you cannot bring democracy to people at the barrel of a gun...it must come from within. The list goes on and on.

Is there any site, documentation or well written piece that outlines our outrage in a way that could be published in "Iraq For Dummies?" It cannot be too complex because she does not think in terms of nuance.

I need to get her to start thinking about what we have lost and the why we are so outraged at this administration.

Please, someone direct me to a simplified version of our position. It could mean the survival or demise of our relationship.

-Paige

[Oversea Visitor]

1. Well I guess

1) She is your elder sister
2) She holds a management position

Basically I dont think she care much about all this stuff. You might have come on too strongly and she just dug in to a position. Typically she will just ask you not to waste you time on all this nonsense. She will just tell you she is not interested in reading all this or even seeing the proof.

This does not make her a freeper. Facts is maybe she just not interested. Maybe just cool the subject off and let her figure it out for herself.

[Steely_Dan]

5. Actually...

...she is the one calling me. She gets a few glasses of wine in her and feels like she can take me on. Yes...she is my older sister but has never really worked for someone else her entire life.

She states that she is a realist and that I'm an idealist. She states that I do not face the reality of the world.

Yes, she can be the one to be confrontational...and I can be as well. She has stated that she would be willing to read and educate herself on the issues (which I claimed she hasn't done). Hence, the need for a primer on the issues.

-Paige

[Oversea Visitor]

7. Aaaah

Self employed Boss type.
Might be just siblings rivalry.
Enjoy the Wine try making comments fun and laugh on it. Try taking some fun articles make it easy to read and share it. It fact have some fun on chimp behalf. There so many funny stuff here on chimp that will make people laugh. Sometime you need to lose to win hey.

[Dora]

17. The old "realist" routine

My father-in-law throws that one at my husband and me. As though by virtue of his years he has a deeper understanding of "reality" than we do.

1) IMHO, we should all be idealists, working toward and in support of our individual and community ideals. Reality is in flux, and can change from moment to moment - reality is simply a reflection of the ideals we're working (or not working) on.

2) Find the quotes that exist from both Bush and Cheney denying any link between Iraq/Saddam and 9/11. There's your "evidence" that there's no relationship between the two. If she responds by pulling out some Bush/Cheney quotes that link Iraq and 9/11, then ask her if her President is a liar - and if he's not a liar, then she should be able to explain how both statements are true.

3) Find the quotes that indicate that our invasion was based on the premise of WMDs. Then show your sister each of the WMD inspector reports that conclude "no WMDs." As well, show her the memos that have been leaking from British Parliament. These will show her that not only is the WMD case flimsy, but that Bush and his cohorts were hellbent on invasion - with or without cause.

4) Tell her that if she had half a brain, she'd be able to understand what you're explaining to her. I guess this is optional.

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

24. Here:

This should make that part easy. It's a searchable database all backed up with sources of all of the lies, half truths and spin of this entire administration on all subjects.It's the best site I've found for getting good information for debate.

Claim vs. Fact-American Progress

[Dora]

25. Bookmarked it!!!

Super link! Thank you!

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

27. It is an awesome resource!

N/T

[paula777]

28. Excellent site - also bookmarked!

[LiberalFighter]

30. Concerning WMD... if there were WMD we should had been able to find them

[ieoeja]

22. Then respond as a realist.

While the United States led a coaltion to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, we had no ideological difference. Once that war was over, any conflict between ourselves and Saddam should have ended with it.

Saddam's mortal enemy was Iran, not the United States. Iran is the wellspring of anti-Western terrorism, and Saddam was a constant threat to Iran. Saddam was actually an important ally in the war on terrorism. While taking him out might have fit some idealistic plan, realisticly it was insanely stupid.

[Uncle Joe]

42. Realist vs Idealist

One cannot live without the other, the reality was before 1900 man/woman could not fly unless it was in a hot air balloon, then some luny idealist crackpots dreamed that man could fly with mechanics and the next thing you know we have robots on Mars doing our geology. I do not believe that you can seperate the two, everybody is just on a different point of a scale of being realist/idealist.
Also you may try giving her credit on any point where she is correct no matter how trivial to aid in reducing any sibling rivalry. You may find that she will in turn give your point of view more credit. Good luck with that.

[Lochloosa]

2. There is no antidote for the Koolaid....she drank too much

Sorry for your loss:nopity:

[Ishoutandscream2]

20. Yes, a lost cause

I work with many like this woman. You can't present facts to these people - they are beyond help.

[tsuki]

3. Confrontation in this situation is a losing option. It causes

entrenchment. Decide whether you want a broken relationship, or to call a truce and not discuss politics.

[marions ghost]

14. agreed

confrontation tends to deepen the gulf.

BUT the alternative does not have to be "don't discuss politics." If the sister is calling to engage on the subject, she is open to gentle persuasion. She said she would read material provided. It's at least worth a try before just giving up. If there is no change after some constructive effort on the progressive sister's part, then she will know just how deep her sister's resistance is. (Or maybe how deep the sibling rivalry runs, as it sounds as though there's some baiting going on that may have nothing to do with politics). I don't buy the idea that all kool-aid drinkers are made the same way. I think some are open to discussion that is not too emotional and allows for some face-saving.

[Quakerfriend]

4. Here's what I say to my freeper sisters:

I often say, "Well that's what I thought too...until I read"... The Price of Loyalty, by Paul O'Neill or Worse than Watergate by John Dean etc.

It works quite well! I even got one of them to rent 911 and watch the whole thing! She is turning fast!!

Repugs are sometimes quite stubborn and don't ever want to admit that they MIGHT have been wrong! It's tied into the fact that they see themselves as an elite class, compared to us dems and independents- and they don't want to loose that perceived superiority! Very maddening!

[Jade Fox]

35. Wow, good work! n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

6. Follow this rule and be happy ...

Very few freepers are reformed. The one's that wake up to reality usually have to have a profound, life changing experience, i.e., tour in the military, etc.

Hey, almost my entire family - both sides - are right wing libertarians. If you want to keep "good relationships" with these non-reality based people you love, do NOT talk politics. Avoid it like the plague, if they won't shut-up, take a drive, but for heaven's sake, don't engage them. Why? Because they are NOT EVER wrong.

If you discuss politics with your freeper relatives you're asking for heartache and uncomfortable family reunions.

For me - I LOVE my family but DESPISE "the vast majority" of their political beliefs. Therefore, with regard to family, I do NOT discuss politics with ANY of them. Ever!!!

[auburngrad82]

8. Our goal in Vietnam was to bring Democracy to that country

30 years after our withdrawal they are still communist. 50,000+ American lives were lost for nothing. So far we have lost over 1700 Americans in Iraq. What is Democracy worth if they don't want it?

[Don1]

9. This is not overly simplified...

but it is not too difficult to read either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1832524

You can find my talking points for the issue, too, from reading the entire thread.

The talking points are in fact simple to use.

I would also recommend starting from a values discussion. Both you and your sister are likely interested in democracy and saving Iraqi lives. The difference is that she is brainwashed and her views do not fit with the facts.

[Maraya1969]

10. Here is an email I sent yesterday thanks to the help of the great

people at DU.

Well here is part of it anyway:

"I had heard privately from many people who feel that they have been deceived by this war. It is not necessary to blow up an entire country in order to change regimes. In previous times the US lead successfully coups in Iran and Guatemala.(1)And before the Iraq war Saudi Arabia was offering to help stage a coup to get Saddam out.(2) There were options other than war.



Also toward the buildup of the war Saddam gave several desperate offers to the Bush administration. He wanted to allow Americans in to search for Weapons of Mass Destruction. He even pleaded to let an international coalition monitor Iraqi elections in two years. (3) And why was he offering these things? I’d say because he is a very smart man and he knew that the US would destroy his country and probably kill him."



http://www.musicforamerica.org/misc/media_files/bushjoke.mov

1.http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php

(http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/summary.pdf)


2. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,408784,00.html

3. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1079769,00.html



EDIT: early in the morning. Can't see or spell

[quaoar]

11. Here's an argument that gets good results with Freepers

Tell your sister that for the sake of argument you will concede the war -- at the time it was started -- was the proper thing to do. You have to get beyond that point to get into a Freeper's mind.

Then make the argument that Bush has completely fucked up the war, that he is grossly negligent and incompetent. Point out the Humvees that still didn't have armor leaving our troops exposed to IEDs. Point out that we have spent billions and Iraq is no better off infrastructure-wise than it was before the war -- that there is less electricity now than before. Point out Halliburton's war profiteering and how much is being spent on the army of private security firms.

Point out the damage being done to the military -- the stop-loss, the back-door draft, Guardsmen sent over with little training for extended tours. Ask her if she thinks we could fight North Korea is we had to.

All you need to do is to get her to concede a few of these points -- to crack that veneer of Freeperishness -- to get her thinking. So if sahe concedes a few points, don't gloat or try to hammer in the rest of it. It takes time to be deprogrammed.

[niceypoo]

12. People like her repeat talking points

All you have to do is ask for details. People who parrot talking points cannot give details. I do it all the time in my political chatroom. Dig below the surface and they come up clueless EVERY time.

[lady lib]

13. Maybe if you get her to laugh about politics a bit

it might start to bring down her defenses. Have her read Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. With any luck she'll get a good laugh and start to realize that she's not being told the truth. Then follow it up with F9/11 or the Greenwald videos.


:shrug:

[marions ghost]

15. totally agree

humor can be a GOOD approach. Helps soften the emotional edge while at the same time getting closer to reality.

[Felix Mala]

16. Review admin statements from 02 and 03 in Fahrenheit 9/11

Get a list off the net. You can't believe the things they said...

"Our first sign of Saddam's nuclear capability could be a mushroom cloud over one of our cities." Could anyone now believe such a thing was possible?


On the other hand, freepers, like their Nazi anticedants, had to loose everything before anyone could get their attention.

[Gay Green]

36. But never, ever say the words "freeper" and "Nazi" in the same breath...

...since she'll (or any other freeper will) that you're scurrilously equating them with the Nazis.

[paparush]

18. Go TOTALLY CHRISTIAN on her...

A. Bush loves Jesus.
B. Jesus' message was "Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, and turn the other cheek."
C. Ask her reconcile A+B

[personman]

19. Silver bullets...

Normal fire-arms are useless against them...

[ihaveaquestion]

21. I think you need to back-up a little with her and start

with your relationship. Since she's calling you, she wants to discuss things with you, but it sounds like she doesn't really value your opinion. She thinks you're misguided (when we KNOW it's the other way round, don't we?) and she's trying to convince you she's right and isn't listening to you. Point this out and discuss how you value her opinion and would appreciate the same courtesy, etc. Once you get her buy-in on this basic point (this should be easy since no one wants to be perceived as unfair), lay down some discussion ground rules you can both live with. Things like - 1. you each get to state your points/facts/opinions without interuption and 2. each of you agree to be honest and admit when you don't actually know the facts of a situation. Lay it all out even if it seems contrived and wooden at first. You'll both get used to it and your discussions should get smoother with practice. This may take some time, but stick with it and don't discuss politics until you can agree on how to do it in a reasonable manner.

You'll just continue to be stuck in circular arguments and stay frustrated until you can get her to agree to listen to you.

Good Luck!

[Pryderi]

23. If our Revolution was imposed on us by France in 1776 to liberate

us from England, we'd still have French military bases and embassies in every state.

[bribri16]

26. Even the Bible tells you to never argue with a fool.

Just tell her that she is a fool and you won't even waste any more breath trying to educate her about anything.

[Geek_Girl]

32. Can you point me to where in the bible it says that

I have a freeper fundie friend who lives to argue I would like to quote it to him the next time he wants to argue.

[bribri16]

39. ok

9If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest Proverbs 29:9

[baron j]

29. Show her the picture of rumsfeld shaking hands with

Saddam. Show her the picture of Dumbya holding hands with the Saudi prince...

from that website http://www.americanprogressaction.org/ quoted above:

Topic: War On Terror

Speaker: Bush, George - President

Date: 9/23/2003

Quote/Claim:
"All governments that support terror are complicit in a war against civilization.” - UN Speech "

Fact:
"The Administration continues its close ties with the Saudis despite the findings of a bipartisan commission investigating 9/11. The commission found the Saudi government not only provided significant money and aid to the suicide hijackers but also allowed potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to flow to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups through suspect charities and other fronts.” - LA Times, 8/2/03"

Force her to watch Fahrenheit 911.

Do an image search on Yahoo! or Google with these search terms: Iraqi children casualties

send her the link.

[LiberalFighter]

31. Walmart and other corporations

What did we have before Walmart?

They don't produce more jobs because they build and provide goods. They replace the jobs that are lost when other small businesses go out of business because they can't compete. If there weren't any Walmarts there would be more specialized stores and general stores and grocery stores that sold the same items that Walmart does.

As for these people would be without work altogether... how does she figure that? People can't buy goods if they don't have a paying job to pay for the goods. I don't know how anyone here in the U.S. can go to work in another low paying country and then buy the goods they sell here at inflated prices. They are inflated because the wages and other expenses are extremely low vs. the profit from the sale of the goods.

[wyldwolf]

33. here's a few good links

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

http://factchecker.purpleocean.org/

[DS9Voy]

34. Just wait for the bush economy to hit home

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Give her this

[GreenInNC]

38. Kill them

Just kidding, or am I?

[warrens]

40. How about 237 lies about the Iraq war?

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pdfs_108_2/pdfs_inves/pdf_admin_iraq_on_the_record_rep.pdf

[FreedomAngel82]

41. Maybe you could

show her http://www.informationclearinghouse.info and show her some of those docs. Also ask her how the "war on drugs" is going along.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

43. We have one of those too

but we love her and we are a close family so we all avoid those topics. It isn't easy, believe me, but she is the type of person who will dig in her heals if she feels she is being challenged. It is better in our case to let her see the truth for herself.

[SeekerofTruth]

44. You're lecturing, not discussing...

You state "I tell her that you cannot bring democracy to people at the barrel of a gun...it must come from within". This is wrong to begin with. Did you forget about WWII? You always lose debates and discussions if you lecture and you're wrong.

Instead, don't tell her she's wrong, ask her how she is right. When she discusses WalMart and how it helps, ask her how money ma-pa shops are gone because of them. When she says she doesn't know, then ask how can she be so sure WalMart is so great?

Don't tell her she's wrong, ask her questions that lead her to start questioning herself.