Flag Desecration Amendment

[AUYellowDog]

Tomorrow the House is going to start debating starting the process on a constitutional amendment banning the desecration of the American flag. What are your thoughts? There are a couple of objections that I have.

1) While I personally would not desecrate the flag, I feel that it violates the first amendment to do make such actions illegal.

2) How do you define desecration? Burning? Violating the code of the flag? This would mean the rednecks couldn't wear their American flag clothing and you would be legally forced to take down your flag when it rains (which you should do anyway, but I don't think it should be an issue of law).

What are your thoughts?

Brandon

[pie]

1. Desecrate away! This ammendment is a big waste of time

and evil to boot

[BamaLefty]

2. I Would Vote Against This Amendment

and I would feel that my vote would be patriotic, not the other way around. I don't think this should be a partisan issue either...

[grannylib]

3. It's a damn shame that it's more of a big deal to "desecrate" the piece

of cloth than it is to trash the nation, the constitution, and the values that lovely symbol represents.
It's just another distraction du jour...keep our attention focused on unimportant, but knee-jerk issues, so we don't pay any attention to the REAL news, REAL scandals, REAL threats we face with this sorry lot of lying sacks of crap in the WH...

[AUYellowDog]

10. Very true

Who gives a shit about desecrating the flag and letting gays get married when people don't have jobs, people are dying in Iraq, and our healthcare system is in crisis? It's these smoke and mirrors tactics of theirs that are nuts.

Brandon

[MazeRat7]

4. Yawn... another feel good distraction void of any substance.

But hey.... at least it will get coverage by the talking wanker heads and have everyone at a fever pitch by the 4th.

MZr7

[Ravenseye]

5. I think it's anti-american

Laws banning "flag burning" are unconstitutional. That's why they need an ammendment. So they can change the constitution.

The day that happens i'm going to take an American flag and do something I've never done and have no other plans to do to it. Desecrate it.

Most people don't treat the flag properly. How many flags do you see ripped, flying on cars or from a front porch stoop, day and night. How many of those flags do you think get just thrown in the garbage. After 9/11 we flew an American Flag from our house for over a year, correctly mind you, and when it was time, we properly disposed of it, with the help of the vietnam veterans association, who came and took the properly folded flag from us and then took it to be burned.

How many of those ig'nant rednecks do that? I wonder.

Yet the day a law like that passes i'm heading to the Capitol and i'm burning a flag. How can the flag represent our country if it doesn't represent the freedom of speech we, supposedly, have? How can it represent our country if it doesn't represent the freedom of expression we, supposedly, have? How can it represent our country if it, in itself, stands for something diametrically opposed to what this country was supposedly founded upon.

Those are my thoughts. Cheers, Brandon.

[grannylib]

14. So true! I nearly retched every day last year, as I was driving to work. I

had to pass this place with an obscenely huge Chimp/Cheney the Dick sign, and next to it, not one but TWO flags, one one each side, and both so faded and tattered it was just sickening. One was SO bad that it was really 3/4 of a flag - the field of stars was pretty much intact, but the upper portion of the stripes had ripped in two and part had ripped off altogether.
How very patriotic. They must have been SO proud.

[hopein08]

6. Good post...

To answer...

1) I was channel surfing today and CourtTV said that it was the anniversary (from 1989, I think) of the Supreme Court ruling that burning the flag is within the 1st Amendment rights. I was very happy to see that. Anybody know what the make-up of the court was then? Kind of coincidental, anyway. I would not desecrate the flag either, but it is a form of speech.

2) My overlying theory is...if the flag cannot be desecrated in any way, perhaps there should be laws included in this that prohibit the wearing of flag-themed clothing and the marketing of clothes and other items as "patriotic" because they have a flag on them, unless all proceeds go to charity or something. One type of flag desecration has to be seeing the American flag stretched across t-shirts, tank tops, and shot glasses. It's a flag, not a fashion. So if they include that, maybe I'd go for it. Doubt it though.

BTW, I have to agree about the taking down of the flag in the rain. My family left our flag out for a long time once and now the pole is all rusty so we don't want to put it out in that condition but we can't decide what to do with it.

Again, good post!

[Charlie Brown]

11. Texas vs. Johnson

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/texasvjohnson.html

Amazingly, Scalia and Kennedy sided with the majority, and Stevens sided with Rehnquist in the minority.

[grannylib]

15. Excellent point about the clothing...flag etiquette expressly prohibits

that, along with flags in advertising, on disposable items (paper plates, etc.)
I have even seen stars and stripes underwear, for heaven's sake...so it's "desecration" if you sew a flag patch on your jeans for the anti-war protest, but it's "patriotic" if you snug Old Glory right up next to your genitalia???
Someone explain freeper "logic" to me, please.....

[hopein08]

19. Hadn't even thought of the underwear and...

disposable items. It never ceases to amaze me when places like Wal-Mart have sales for Memorial Day or the 4th of July and everything on the displays (plates, table cloths, clothes, cups, napkins ~that would be like blowing your nose on the flag~) has a flag on it and there is no mention of the real point of the holiday.

You should write up the thing about stars & stripes underwear. It's the perfect point.

I doubt that anyone can explain freeper "thinking" (I can't and won't call it logic), sorry...

[Gman]

7. Desecration of the flag is a 40 year old tradition

they just want to get rid of.

[Charlie Brown]

8. I burned a flag once in the Boy Scouts

that's the protocol for retiring a flag. Guess once this amendment passes, we can jail people for treating the flag with respect.

[CTLawGuy]

38. thats the thing that gets them in trouble

they claim that they are not doing it to silence critical speech.

But if it is proper to burn an old, decrepit flag, I'm sure they would not turn around and outlaw it. But rather they would be forced to go weaken the first Amendment and use it as a means to silence dissent.

[smoogatz]

9. The Republicans bring this up whenever they're desperate.

It's a sure sign they're in deep intellectual doo-doo. They'll wave this piece of shit around and try to impress the folks back home with their indomitable patriotism. Someone will play "It's A Grand Old Flag" in the background while Tom DeLay accuses the Democrats of not worshipping the flag sufficiently.

Of course it's a First Amendment buster--the flag is a symbol, nothing more. It is not a holy artifact. Those who worship it are guilty of practicing idolatry.

[capriccio]

13. Not so fast

E-mail I received today from one of my Senators...giving new meaning to blue state:


Thank you for writing to express your opposition to a
constitutional amendment prohibiting the physical desecration of the
American flag. I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts
with me.

Unfortunately, we will have to disagree about this issue. I
strongly believe that the American flag holds a unique position in our
society as the most important and universally recognized symbol that
unites us as a nation. The flag -- as a symbol of our nationhood -- can
and should be respected and protected from attack. Beyond my personal
convictions, many Californians have told me of their desire for such
protection for our flag. Indeed, California had a flag protection statute
from 1929 until 1989, when the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the
flag protection statutes of 47 states and the Federal government.

The authority for a nation to protect its central symbol of unity
was considered constitutional for two centuries. It was only a decade
ago that a narrow majority of the U.S. Supreme Court said otherwise. At
this point, it seems clear that the only way to protect the American flag is
to amend the Constitution to authorize Congress to prohibit the physical
desecration of the flag. In the 108th Congress I was an original cosponsor
of Senate Joint Resolution 4 (S. J. Res. 4) which would have done just
that. I will continue to pursue the topic in the 109th Congress.

Please know that I value your opinion, but on this issue I am
afraid we will remain in disagreement. However, I greatly appreciate
your input and hope that you will continue to share your views with me.
If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call my
Washington, DC staff at [phone].

Sincerely yours,

Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator

[grannylib]

16. Oh that's disappointing...trying to be ReThuglican Lite isn't gonna get

us anywhere.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

34. Ugh. Feinstein is worthless.

I've just about had it up to here with her DINO bullshit. Seems every other day I read something from her that makes me just want to throw up.

[proiowadem]

12. Did anyone catch daily show yesterday?

Rob (Cordrey?) Burned an american flag with a sparkler.

[gaia_gardener]

17. Would this stop the reactionary flag wearing/waving?

If so, I'd be willing to go along with it. It's a better loss than a lot of the 1st amendment rights we've lost. Besides, if this happened and all those repubs had to stop wearing flag clothing, they'd have a taste of the loss we're all feeling.

[Hippo_Tron]

18. It's a tradition, they do this every congress and it never goes anywhere

On the bright side, Dennis Kucinich will lose his perfect voting record with the Patrick Henry Club.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Thank god we've got a government dealing with important things like this.

Fucking Assclowns.

[Hippo_Tron]

23. If I were President I would set a priorities system

For example... I have no problem tracking down and prosecuting software pirates, prosecution rings, and people who grow marijuana in their backyards.

AFTER we catch all of the terrorists. And I mean ALL of the terrorists.

[cornfedyank]

21. if the flag stands for what We believe..why would they burn?

wage peace

[NinetySix]

22. What IS the flag?

The Amendment had better be pretty damned detailed when describing it. For instance, would burning a 48-star flag be desecration? It is, after all, no longer the official flag of the United States. How about a caracature of the flag, say, 17 big goofy stars and 9 stripes? Would it be a crime to burn the Liberian flag, which closely resembles the US flag, but has only one star and 11 stripes?

One action that would be interesting to test the law would be to burn a flag with an orange canton filled with black stars, along with 13 black and green stripes. That wouldn't be illegal, would it? What if I took a photo of this flag in flames, then printed only the negative? Then everything but the flag would appear to be the opposite colors, and the flag would appear red, white, and blue. Would such a depiction of the flag in flames be desecration, given that I hadn't ACTUALLY burned a US flag?

In any case, it appears that those who would sponsor and vote in favor of this amendment are strongly interested in seeing an unprecedented number of flags going up in flames, since if such an amendment were to be passed and ratified, that is precisely what would (will) happen.

[Skittles]

24. killing American troops in a war based on a pack of lies is A-OK

but GOD FORBID anyone trash that flag

[Ilsa]

25. A veteran in San Antonio is flying a torn up flag on purpose.

I believe he said he'll take it down when the troops come home from Iraq. The neighbors and the local VFW are trying to make him take it down. This story is several months old, so I don't know what happened.

[zulchzulu]

26. Imagine all the USA flag dude rags that threaten Democracy now

Christ, look at the desecration around us!

[flaminbats]

42. only those unpatriotic gays can't admire this!

a real patriot burns a faded flag, neocons just trash it! which is flag desecration?

[Gregorian]

27. First grade mentality.

Democracy is not threatened by the burning of a flag so much as the passing of meaningless legislature.

Meanwhile, children are starving. That is the real sin. There's a hell for these politicians.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

28. I abhor desecration of the flag, but I abhor mucking with

the Constitution more. Flag desecration is a flagrant act of unpatriotic rudeness, but it is protected speech. Someone posted on this a while ago, but if you read the U.S code on flag handling, technically, you can't even wear lappel pins, or wear the flag on your clothes. Supporters of the FBA look to the U.S codes on flag handling as proof that flag burning isn't free speech. Never mind that those laws are not really enforceable (they're more like guidelines), and as I said, if we did make those guidelines law, no one would be able to fly their flags.

[high density]

29. I'm ambivalent on the issue

I don't feel like desecrating any country's flag and I'm not sure why some people think it's a productive activity or something that's even remotely acceptable to do. I wouldn't go out of my way to support people on either side of this specific issue, though I would lean toward those who are against any new desecration amendment. Of the issues we have in this country, I think this is one that can remain permanently on the back burner.

[Gyre]

30. We've already been down this road many times since VN

It's a friviolous thing to amend the Constitution for. Plus, what really bothers me is that all those neocon jackasses will have to eliminate half their wardrobes and start looking professional again rather than the circus acts they are.

Gyre

[FrenchieCat]

31. But where in the F*ck

is Osama. That's what I wanna know!

I don't even care about this issue. It doesn't even compute! :eyes:

[Guaranteed]

32. No ambivalence for me on this issue.

An anti-flag-desecration amendment in the Constitution is the most unAmerican thing I can think of.

If it passes, I will renounce my citizenship. It will OFFICIALLY not be America anymore.

[Clarkie1]

33. This undermines the very constitutional principles the flag symbolizes.

And spending time on it undermines a lot of work that needs to be done on important issues.

[C_U_L8R]

40. The Flag Does Not Mean A Thing

So long as reich wing republicans disgrace our national honor
with their pervasive corruption, blatant lies, corporate cronyism,
unneccesary wars, illegal torture chambers, false piety, etc etc...

The flag is a symbol of our values.
And dare to say... these days it may as well be a swastika.
The Bush Regime is blemish on our heritage, a blight upon our freedom,
and an embarrassment to all patriotic Americans.

With hope and courage, justice will prevail
and once again our flag will be a proud symbol
that does not need protection.

[rasputin1952]

35. Regardless of ones political leaning, desecrating the Flag is a sure

fire way to ensure that virtually no one will listen to your message. You will reap the scorn of so many from either side of the aisle, the act itself is social/political suicide.

Some may say it is merely a piece of cloth, but the Flag is much more than that. It is certainly, in its basest form, a symbol; it is what that symbol represents that is important.

Our Flag does not belong to the RW, nor the Progressives, it belongs to all of us. Desecrating it is the same as spitting in the faces of every citizen in this nation.

I have been to parades where no one other than my son and I stood when the Colors went by...in fact, many of those who remained seated were sitting in Flag motif lawn-chairs! Strange how some people don't see placing their asses on a flag as disrespectful, but think other forms of 'abuse' are horrendous...:shrug:

Anyway...there is no need for a "Flag Amendment"...it is a foolish thing to bring up in the House...and will die a quick death. The First Amendment trumps any law that the gasbags could come up with, and the notion of getting 2/3rds of the states to ratify it is a dream. People would be livid if more of their rights were sacrificed to some quasi-patriotic jargon.

[baron j]

36. The repugs desecrate it every time they wear it on their lapels...

Though, I think to desecrate something, it has to be considered sacred in the first place. Separation of church and state is needed.

Why all the energy devoted to this? If someone burns it as an act of free speech rights, and you don't like it, sew another.

[OneBlueSky]

37. I was once on the staff of a Democratic Congressman . . .

who was one of only two to vote against the flag burning amendment sometime around 1970 or so . . . the other was Phil Burton of San Francisco . . .

[July]

39. This and gay marriage. Trotting out the hot-button issues.

A sure sign the thugs are in trouble. These issues have no costs associated with them, and are a quick and easy way to line up support. Abortion is the other topic they wheel out when support weakens -- that should be next on the agenda.

[Cats Against Frist]

41. Two observations

1. It's so fucked up, that it's hard to wrap your mind around. You are not free to burn your symbol of freedom.

2. For the (laugh my guts out) party of "limited government," the GOP is sure busy trying to tack on as many "oh, no you don't -- your federal government says unh-uh" amendments on to the Constitution, as they possibly can. Why their constituents aren't smart enough to--


oh, that's right -- I forgot. Their constitutents are fucking idiots.