How the GOP undermines the left...

[whometense]

You know that old truism about how getting democrats to agree on anything is like herding cats?

Well, David Fenton, author of Shots: An American Photographer's Journal, 1967-72 was a guest on Morning Sedition today, and he was talking about right wing dirty tricks. One of the things he mentioned was the right wing infiltration of left wing groups in order to sow dissension.

Sound familiar? I'm 100% convinced this is happening on DU and Kos right now. Think of the gazillion flamebait threads that have popped up (and continue to appear daily) since the election. Think how easy it is to start disagreements in order to get democrats to trash their own candidates.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. I have long felt that was the case.

Here and in those other places where dissension gets really intense.

Remember: "astroturfing" companies did not exist back in Nixon's day. They do now. People get paid to sow dissension and strife.

[paulk]

2. it's pretty obvious

pose as an extreme leftist

trash Democrats with impunity...

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulk]

23. I would think it obvious that "extreme leftist"

refers to the extreme left of the spectrum, i.e. communism/socialism.

there is a point at which the rhetoric of the far left and the far right merge, a point that is often reached here at DU.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

3. They never rest. After 9-11, WHO paid for polls asking "Isn't it better

that Bush is president now instead of Gore?"

"Who would you prefer as president to lead the war on terror, Bush or Gore?"

Right when people had no choice BUT to put their lives in the hands of the dumbass punk.

Where were the poll questions asking "As president, who would have read the HartRudman Report on Global Terror that was given to the White House on Jan 30, 2001, Bush or Gore?"

[politicaholic]

4. They're wasting their time if they're on DU.

From what I've seen this is a predominantly reactionary site. There are a few fantastic researchers, one or two Capital Hill insiders, and a few FBI, CIA, DEA, SS, INS, SSB, TLC, ASAP, agents monitoring the movements of the "extremist fringe" otherwise known as "50% of the American population".

Don't worry, Lieberman will get his tongue lashings, Hillary will have her doubters, and many will be called DINOs before the day is through, but one thing that you won't see is the truly Democratic people of DU turn their back on their party. I guarantee.

[mongo]

9. Happy to be part of the "extremist fringe"

You are right. And there are Dems here from all over the left side of the spectrum.

Many have their own pet issues (me included of course), that may be outside the center of the Dem party (but NOT me of course).

[PATRICK]

5. the lesson

is not to engage in internal witch hunts which are also mightily desired by the GOP but to teach ourselves stronger principles of discourse and debate. And that is what I see happening with the light hearted steam in the Lounge getting healthier, the egos and outrage that send fingers flying at the keys now have better self judgment and better interplay with people trying to point out disruptive behavior.

ALL because we know we have enemies in our midst to keep us focused. Many thanks to the dour, paid agents and freelance goons who cannot possibly comprehend rational decency and if they did would so be in danger or turning that they probably have hypnotic suicide mechanism implanted in their psyche just for that occasion.

As for the subtle signs it is interesting how all the blue dog and yellow dog Dems are not starting philosophical flame wars any more and how subtle the poor disruptors must be in trying to dishearten and divide and raise doubts so as not to be dead giveaways, not worth a tombstone because their tone is so restrained.

[kodi]

6. private sector's answer to COINTELPRO

all warfare is based upon deception.

[Jackpine Radical]

35. So is fishing.

"all warfare is based upon deception."

[welshTerrier2]

7. the divisiveness is real ...

assuming various left wing constituencies have been infiltrated by right wing operatives, and you can count on this to be true, two possibilities exist here; not one ...

one possibility, as you stated, is that all or most of the intra-party squabbling is being caused by these infiltrators and that many of the flamebait threads in GD are the result of those infiltrators sowing the seeds of discontent ...

fwiw, i'm skeptical of this happening much on DU ...

because the other possibility is that many on the left, i include myself in this group, are truly disgusted with many of the votes cast by Democrats in the Senate and the Party's continuing shift to the right ... if you want to concern yourself that i am actually one of these evil infiltrators, that's fine ... have at it ...

but i will tell you that if your belief is that real divisiveness does not exist in the Democratic Party and that the high profile flame threads are mere fabrications, you are choosing a very dangerous line of thinking ...

my view is that very deep divisions do exist ... these should not be insurmountable problems ... it's critical for the Party to find some kind of unity among its many factions ... if we enter 2006 as things are now, these divisions will hurt the Party ... I expect Democrats to make significant gains next year ... but the measure is not whether we make gains but rather whether we build unity and make as many gains as we possibly can ...

the Democratic Party, and more specifically Howard Dean, had better find a way to make the Party more democratic ... there are too many constituencies under the so-called big tent who either feel unrepresented or under-represented ... two of the more notable groups that i think fall into this category are blacks and the anti-war wing of the Party ... what i'm calling for is a change in the process ... i am not talking about taking specific positions on any given issue ... if factions within the Party don't feel like they have a chance to speak their piece, Democrats may make gains but they will not return to majority party status ...

so, i wouldn't worry so much about evil infiltrators ... there are far more important things for us to be concerned about ...

[whometense]

14. Too black and white.

I think some of the flamebait threads are from GOP operatives. I also think there's a cadre of genuine lefties who because of personal peeves are all too happy to pile on.

I quoted the bit about herding cats, didn't I? I'm simply saying that the natural level of disagreement among democrats gives the GOP a hole a mile wide in which to operate. That's just the way it is.

The treatment fine democrats receive here and at Kos when one single vote or statement deviates from orthodox expectations is unfair, and the hairtrigger reactions are unnecessarily divisive.

[welshTerrier2]

19. "personal peeves" ???

many on DU consider themselves to be progressives first and Democrats second ...

the point i'm raising has nothing to do with your characterization that "when one single vote or statement deviates from orthodox expectations is unfair, and the hairtrigger reactions are unnecessarily divisive" ...

i'm talking about a Democratic Senate that has giving bush every fucking thing he wanted to prolong the obscene occupation in Iraq ... this is not a "personal peeve" ... this is not a single vote that deviates ... this is not a hairtrigger reaction and this is not unnecessarily divisive ...

bush, with the total support of the Senate Democrats, has slaughtered over 100,000 Iraqis and destroyed any semblance of US credibility in the world ... and you'll excuse me for not bowing down before the idol of the "big dog" who perhaps was responsible for the deaths of over one million Iraqis, many of them children ...

i don't call these criticisms "unnecessarily divisive"; i call them necessarily divisive ... i worked hard for Democrats in last year's election and i supported them with numerous campaign contributions ... if the Party continues to treat the left as a fringe group and continues to vote 100% for bush's imperialist agenda in the Middle East, i will not be supporting them again, as a Party, anytime soon ...

[whometense]

20. What "democratic senate?"

I was under the impression that the senate was republican.

[welshTerrier2]

21. sorry ...

allow me to clarify ... my reference was to "Democrats in the Senate" ...

[Just Me]

8. I've always had my suspicions.

Sometimes, it seems downright obvious!!!

The character trash attacks,...just don't "fit". I know few progressives who direct their anger at anyone other than the actual culprits running and ruining our country.

[CWebster]

10. How the Right undermines the Left?

The DLC by bombarding Democratic mainstream identity as some loonies on the fringe.

Mission accomplished as demonstrated in the complete willingness of self-proclaimed partisans defending Right-leaning centrists while suggesting those who express outrage over their complicity with the Right are infiltrators of some sort.

What a scam.

[byronius]

11. A friend and I discussed this last night, in pure hypothetical form.

What would we do if we were them? We thought a great tactic would be to sign up as two different people, then slowly, reasonably, start a big fight on any thread that showed coherence or was provided real resources -- say, any thread in the 2004 Election Results Forum.

I still hear my progressive friends bemoaning the lack of will they perceive in the DNC -- they're still angry about election fraud, and are still having trouble with the way Al Franken reversed course so cleanly. Frankly, it still bothers me. I view Election Fraud as the only issue. Nonetheless, everyone understands the nature of the Gangster, and the rhetoric aimed at the DNC by my Ultra-Green friends is far less intense than it was before the election. Only cohesion will save our asses from this fire -- we all know this. Family squabbles, yes; condemnation and exclusion -- suicide. Aiding in the Destruction of Humanity. No one wants to help them succeed.

[whometense]

18. Great comment. Thanks.

There's quite a large difference between a family squabble and a nuclear attack.

The problem with flame-throwing (as opposed to civilized discussion): every flame that's thrown makes it that much harder to get back to cohesion. Anyone who insults someone else's favorite candidate is making what should be a positive dialogue that much more difficult to achieve.

Insults are never necessary.

[moondust]

12. Diversity and independent thinking

are to be encouraged in a free society. The mindless compliance and conformity of Republicanism belongs in places like Nazi Germany and North Korea.

[whometense]

16. Diversity and independent thinking are wonderful.

I think, in fact, there's way too little of either going on.

Kneejerk reactions require no thought. Dumping on candidates for real or imagined failures is not thoughtful. Trashing good people because they may not have lived up to someone's personal standard is counterproductive.

Thoughtful, serious debate is always something to be encouraged.

[SeekerofTruth]

13. I disagree, it's our own fault, (no I'm not trying to undermine either)

We don't have a set of core values written anywhere. We need to create a mission statement and a set of core values that are always adhered too. This brings solidarity to a cause. Instead, we bicker about core values. For example: Should gay marriage be legal or not? We can't decide within our own party.

I fear the party's hatred of Bush has blinded it on how to set an example and lead. Which of course, plays into their hands.

[geckosfeet]

15. So absolutely correct.

Its the flamebait threads that need to be trashed. I'm a relative noob here and I think I can sniff out the vermin.

Rats. Snakes in the grass. Backstabbing infiltrators. You are naughty naughty naughty.

[rinsd]

17. Possible...

But the fact is thr rw really doesn't need to do any actual infiltration.

On forum sites like this and Kos, differences of opinion often escalate and people motives are constantly questioned. This tends to lead to the undesired "more progressive/leftist/democratic than thou mentality.

THe rw doesn't actually need to infiltrate only give the appearance of doing so.

[stpalm]

24. interesting. tagging for later reading (NT)

[burythehatchet]

25. I personally outed two creeps in one day

it was a very good day

[ananda]

27. The only thing is that..

.. so many Dems act like Reeptiles..

.. and do not represent me or my vote.

This is not flamebait or intended to sow dissension. It's just a problem with many Dems. It's very painful.

Sue

[ProudDad]

28. Actually I'm an anarchist

who is smart enough and pragmatic enough to know I won't see a general anarchic society in my lifetime.

I'm a conservationist who is smart enough and pragmatic enough to know I won't see true conservation in my lifetime.

I'm a Civil Rights absolutist who is smart enough and pragmatic enough to know I won't see Equal Rights implemented in my lifetime.

I'm a Socialist who is smart enough and pragmatic enough to know I won't see egalitarian Socialism anywhere outside of Cuba in my lifetime.

So, I support some democrats some of the time. So I'm here.

I will also never fail to criticize any of them when they lose sight of the core issues of DEMOCRACY and Egalitarianism or waffle or wimp out.

Someone has to hold up the left-end of the spectrum, be constantly "out front" on the issues or there would NEVER be any progress.

I'm afraid it falls to us far-left, wild-eyed idealists to do this dirty job.

[ProudDad]

29. The other main reason is that

the freeper sight is UGLY, UGLY, UGLY. It's unreadable. Ours is much nicer to view and interact with so the righties may be here in larger numbers than lefties at their UGLY, UGLY site. Well, their content is junk too -- mostly ad-hominum crap.

If it were as attractive as DU, I'd be over there every day disturbing their shit.

Maybe we could sell them our software so their site wouldn't look so butt UGLY and I could go over there and troll their asses. That would be fun.

Hey FREEPERS, change to PHPBB or something that's readable!!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. The ones I see as Republican disruptors are the ones

who come on proposing various empty suits for the 2008 nomination or making snide comments about the "far left"--those of us who actually want to be distinguishable from moderate Republicans.

The ones who come on like the Spartacus Youth League are ridiculously obvious and not as harmful as the ones who are continually urging wishy-washiness in the guise of "realism." In fact, I think their ilk has infiltrated the Democratic Party and has been doing so over the past 25 years.

My only hope is that the grassroots activists who are working their way up the hierarchies of various state parties can have an effect before its too late.

[Joe Chi Minh]

31. This seems to be the place, Lydia.

I doubt if you Americans could know how lucky you are. In the UK, few - a negligible number - of committed activists seem to be straight arrows, and to the best of my knowledge, unorganised. I know of nothing like DU, over here. Virtually all committed activists are chancers.

You, on the other hand, seem to have thousands and thousands, maybe hundred of thousands, of really shrewd people who know your country doesn't have to be this way. If only you... or the French or the Germans or the Scandinavians could persuade us to "get a grip", and cleanse this "snouts in the trough" country of ours of its ever fatter and more demanding parasites, purporting to govern us, nationally and locally, but constantly grinding us down more and more.
And our press is much worse than yours. Believe me.

[Fire Walk With Me]

32. "Divide and Conquer"? Works every time.

Keep your attention spans up and hammer back.

[libodem]

33. bet you are correct

we should be good to each other none the less.

[bvar22]

34. If there are covert Republican operatives at DU,

they are the "3rd Way Dems" or the so called "New Democrats" or the members of the "Progressive Policy Institute". Their common goal is to INCREASE the influence of Corporate Management and MONEY inside the Democratic Party. They have been amazingly successful. When is the last time the Democratic Party proposed ANY legislation that protected Working Americans or the Middle Class?

*THEY are responsible for the wedges in the Democratic Party.

*THEY are responsible for the RIGHTWARD Move in the Party.

*THEY are responsible for the dis affectation of 30 MILLION Democrats who don't go to the polls anymore because "Nobody speaks for me "!

*THEY are responsible for well financed, dispassionate, ambiguous, Republican-Lite candidates.

*THEY are responsible for Democrats who vote FOR Bankruptcy Bills and Tort Reform.

*THEY are responsible for ANTI-LABOR Union Busting legislation like NAFTA.

*They are responsible for the epidemic of Corporate De-regulation

*THEY are responsible for an ambiguous Democratic Party Platform that doesn't hold ANY Democrat to ANY Party Policy.

*THEY are responsible for a confusing and ambiguous Party that can't deliver a coordinated message or pitifully few unified votes.

*THEY are responsible for Media Consolidation.

*THEY are responsible branding and ridiculing traditional Democratic Positions as "Looney left" (see Al Fromm & DLC)


Are these "Loony Left" Positions:

*Single Payer HealthCare

*Criminalizing and enforcing bans on Corporate Money and Influence in Government

*STRONG LABOR PROTECTIONS

*Protection for American JOBS (No NAFTAs)

*Restrictions on the SIZE and POWER of Corporations

*Fair Competition laws protecting Mom & Pop businesses from the Wal-Marts

*STRONG EFFECTIVE Environmental Protections

*Caps on Corporate Profits (Record Prices and Record Profits shouldn't happen in Democratic Capitalism) That used to be called "market rigging" or gouging.

*Strong Transparent Governmental Regulation of Transportation, Utilities, Insurance, Energy, Banking, Credit, and Investment.

*Individual Protection from Government Intrusion (No Patriot Acts)

*Affordable (Universal?) Education for EVERYONE

*Living Wages

*Childcare for Working Mothers


WTF is a "3rd Way Democrat"? Why do we need the "New Democrats" and what do THEY stand for? Isn't being a regular old PRO-LABOR Democrat good enough for them?

Are these NEW DEMS some how different from the FDR Democrats who sparked and sustained the GREATEST ECONOMIC EXPANSION the WORLD has ever seen?

Are the NEW DEMS opposed to the policies that gave birth to the Explosion of the Middle Class in America?



If you are looking for well financed covert republican operatives, I know where to find them.

[tanyev]

37. If there are Republican operatives at DU,

they might have a little more success in the cat-herding industry.

[glitch]

36. Absolutely - which is why we really should alert on and NOT feed trolls.nt

[Norquist Nemesis]

38. I know for a fact there is one at DU

and others I'm suspicious of, but not positive as with this one.

I'm looking forward to the day he fully reveals himself. He gets his jollies goading Liberals and their "loony ideas". It's all a perverse game with him.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. And he isn't the first, either

For a while, the same three posters would tag team on any thread that criticized Dem officials for spinelessness or proposed something outside the DLC-defined bounds of "responsible behavior."

At least one of them is still around, and his mantra seems to be absolute loyalty to even the most craven Dems, especially to the most corrupt and spineless Dems, or else we're part of "the circular firing squad," but then he lets loose on all the populist Dems.

[bvar22]

40. Were there really 3 separate posters?

I always thought it was one really fast typist with multiple screen names.
Probably a professional "image consultant" on the payroll of a Corporate lobbying group.
:evilgrin:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Maybe they were in adjacent cubicles at the Heritage Foundation

:hi:

[salin]

42. some more showed up

after the unpopular supreme court ruling.

Get that folks don't like it.

But - some of what is written in response... very interesting. And this from one who tries not to see "others" all around and take folks at face/post value. But when it gets real obvious... come on...