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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 11:45 AM
Original message
Ending US Imperialism: A Warning to us all ...
here are the final two paragraphs in the book "Sorrows of Empire" by Chalmers Johnson:

There is plenty in the world to occupy our military radicals and empire enthusiasts for the time being. But there can be no doubt that the course on which we are launched will lead us into new versions of the Bay of Pigs and updated, speeded-up replays of Vietnam War scenarios. When such disasters occur, as they - or as-yet-unknown versions of them - certainly will, a world disgusted by the betrayal of the idealism associated with the United States will welcome them, just as most people did when the former USSR came apart. Like other empires of the past century, the United States has chosen to live not prudently, in peace and prosperity, but as a massive military power athwart an angry, resistant globe.

There is one development that could conceivably stop this process of overreaching: the people could retake control of the Congress, reform it along with the corrupted elections laws that have made it into a forum for special interests, turn it into a genuine assembly of democratic representatives, and cut off the supply of money to the Pentagon and the secret intelligence agencies. We have a strong civil society that could, in theory, overcome the entrenched interests of the armed forces and the military-industrial complex. At this late date, however, it is difficult to imagine how Congress, much like the Roman senate in the last days of the republic, could be brought back to life and cleansed of its endemic corruption. Failing such a reform, Nemesis, the goddess of retribution and vengeance, the punisher of pride and hubris, waits impatiently for her meeting with us.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. I wish I could write something "up beat" here
Edited on Fri Jun-24-05 12:15 PM by Donna Zen
But me thinks we're going down.

Money. We must get the money out of the political system.

Watching out for our backs is less important than watching out for the green backs.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. wow ... someone actually responded to this thread ...
you're OK with me, Donna !!

it troubles me at times that there is so much focus on politics on DU at the expense of focussing on issues ... maybe this thread would have done better in GD than GD- Politics ...

i sometimes wonder what exactly many of the people here are actually fighting for ... 10 posts about something Rove said, 15 posts about how Stewart treated Dean on the Daily Show, 20 posts on why Durbin shouldn't have "caved" and lots of stuff about why Kerry STILL hasn't led the charge on the DSM ...

yeah, politics is important ... yeah, we have to regain power ... but it seems to me job one has to be to sit down together and get a buy in on what the hell we're going to do when we have power ...

why sign up for a cause when you don't know what that cause is? to paraphrase something Dean once said, this has to be about something more than just winning ...

what was i thinking making a post about some kind of vague concept like imperialism?

anyway, glad this thread didn't just fade away to that big goose egg in the sky ...
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hahahahahaaaaa!
I should be doing chores!

It is more than just the idle chatter at DU that grinds me down. Nothing wrong with idle chatter. It is the complete 180s that get turned here everyday. I mean, are against this friggin war or not? Because if we are, then why would I support someone who voted for it? And I want no shit about "oh...de intelligence..lied to...yadiyadi." And if we have learned to love the bomb, then I'm at the wrong place.

Krugman, who believes that our very democracy is up for grabs here, once wrote that two candidates got it: Howard Dean and Wes Clark.

Now both have flaws and probably hang with a richer crowd than I do, but both want to restore at least the framework of a democratic system.

Clark calls it: Constitutional restoration... a return to checks and balances. He thinks that every corporate loophole should be dug out of bills and the congress should be forced to vote on those loopholes individually. Let those constituents know how their representatives vote.

Unfortunately, Clark has said that "...there have been other democracies throughout history; and they disappeared." His note that talked about a saddness was accurate. These machinations of late remind me of the last days of the Roman senate. They too talked about the inconsequential and spent their days either hiding from mud, or slinging it.

DU has the power and the people to organize and effect change. And so yes, talking about the issues is important. No one ever asked the American people if they wanted to be an empire. We should start there.

You are very OK!
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. We're out here, honest.
Edited on Fri Jun-24-05 12:54 PM by cyberpj
I share your sentiments about the content of too many DU threads.

Just this week I posted several on Halliburton
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1876272

and LNG legislation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1878906

and others that simply sank into oblivion while crowds of DUers went on and on and on about what Dean said or what Rove said and who was a jerk and on and on..

Finally, I posted this to a Dean thread today and got a little action (a lot of it negative).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3936628

Thanks for restoring my sanity. I guess I'll stay around a while afterall.......





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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. That book is a great read....
as is "Hegemony or Survival" by Noam Chomsky
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. WE DID NOT CHOOSE THIS!
In 2000, there was an electoral coup-d'etat. The RW Supreme Court
installed George W. Bush as pResident, despite the fact that Al Gore
got more votes, and the recount in Florida would have certainly given
the election to Gore, had the USSC not issued their "emergency" decree
to stop the count. Almost immediately they overreached, and lost the
Senate. They got it back in 2002 by a combination of electoral fraud
and murder. In 2004, the fraudsters took control of Ohio's election,
once again delivering the sElection to ** (2 stars for 2 stolen elections). Now California's electoral system is under the control
of the Republicans by way of Schwartzengroper's newly-installed
Secretary of State. The pundits will have to do some serious
spinnage to explain the results, of course, but they have had lots
of practice.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. This goes beyond Bush though
The imperialism Chalmers Johnson is fighting is a bi-partisan effort. Bush is just issuing the coup the grace to the dying empire which is one reason he's so passionately disliked by a segment of our society that's still clinging to dreams of Empire.

Bill Clinton was a better imperialist

People sometimes think that I’m attacking the Bush administration. But empire has a much longer history than just the Bush administration, and I would be the first to argue (as I do in my book), that Bill Clinton was a better imperialist than George Bush because he cleverly disguised what we were doing under various rubrics that he invented. That is the essence of strategy: not to give away one’s true purpose but to use an indirect approach. For example, Clinton argued that our attack on Serbia in 1999 was humanitarian intervention. In other cases, he disguised our imperialism as part of a newly discovered ineluctable process called “globalization.”

I’m not going to say that there aren't circumstances under which the use of military force to prevent genocide might be called for, but the issue always is who decides that it’s legitimate to do so. If you yourself say, “I’m invading Panama but this is humanitarian intervention,” well, no, that’s imperialism. The odd thing about our humanitarian intervention is that we invoked it for Kosovars against Milosevic, and for starving Somalis back in 1993; but we’ve not invoked it for Rwandans, Palestinians, Tibetans, East Timorese, and any number of people that one might have argued need protecting, even if it required the use of military force to do so.

Even more important was Clinton’s camouflaging American imperialism under the cover of globalization. He suggested that rather than this being American policies to exploit defenseless Third World farmers for the sake of our own wealth, we were simply reacting to technological forces that were transcending national boundaries.

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/global/cj_int/cj_int1.html#Anchor-Bill-13458

====
There's no question that a group of intellectuals who have served in the government for many years -- in the Reagan administration, in the first Bush administration, now prominently represented in the Department of Defense; people like Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, others -- these people made, in my view, a very wrong conclusion after the demise of the Soviet Union, namely that we won the Cold War. I don't think we did; I think we just didn't lose it the way the Soviet Union did. But they concluded from that we were a new Rome; that we were beyond good and evil; that our policy should be the famous old Roman phrase, "We don't care whether they love us, so long as they fear us." Wolfowitz was writing back at the very end of first Bush administration on how our policy should be the military domination of the globe to ensure that no one, enemy or ally, offers competition to our military force.

On the other hand, just as you were saying, particularly in the Clinton administration, there were those imperialists who spoke of the duty to intervene in the case where human life was at risk and things of this sort. The issue here is not that such a duty or obligation doesn't exist; it is how it's legitimatized. It is not just up to us to decide that we are now going to do a humanitarian liberation of Kosovo from Yugoslavia, but not Chechens, or Palestinians, or East Timorese, or whoever else that we don't want to get involved with. Humanitarian intervention, if it is not legitimatized -- and the only form of legitimacy we have is by sanction of the U.N. Security Council -- is simply a euphemism for imperialism, in which we declare that we have good intentions, but nobody is going to stop us.

Q. So for you, Iraq isn't surprising at all -- that there are no weapons of mass destruction; that the Senate essentially passed the resolution; that we ignored the U.N. and that, now, we've changed our mission. In the end, we may not get democracy, but we will have four or five bases.

There's a lot of continuity here, too. What Americans don't realize is how remarkably hard the Clinton administration worked at promoting the Taliban in Afghanistan -- our purpose there to get a stable government in Afghanistan with which we could, then, for the sake of the Union Oil Company of California, build gas and oil pipelines from Tajikistan across Afghanistan, and emptying through Pakistan into the Arabian Sea. Jim Baker, the very distinguished former Secretary of State, his law firm, Baker Botts, has five attorneys in Baku, Azerbaijan. Now, I want to tell you, there's not a lot of legal work going on in Baku these days. This is the military-petroleum complex at work. The involvement of very high-ranking advisors in our government, of the Kissinger-Brzezinski-Scowcroft class, as advisors to these oil companies is ubiquitous.

globetrotter.berkeley.edu/ people4/CJohnson/cjohnson-con4.html

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. do you honestly believe the evil forces of empire ...
were not actively doing their thing while Clinton was in power? do you think that the military-industrial complex and its global abuses were constrained in the past by "good guy" Democrats?

do you believe that if we could straighten out our corrupt elections process we would return this country to a benevolent foreign policy (if we ever had one)?

i'm afraid to say the problems of imperialism run far beyond the reach of the wrestling matches between Democrats and republicans ... until the boys and girls learn their civics lessons, we will continue our march towards oblivion ...
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walford Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. put your money where your mouth is...
In Europe they are...

http://www.antiimperialista.com/free-iraq/view.shtml?category=44&id=1067790764&keyword
...Only a few days after the collapse of the Iraqi army guerrilla forces began attacking the mercenaries of the occupation forces. They keep inflicting them losses which are of high political and morale value. Among the US bionic soldiers fear is spreading. As Beirut and Mogadishu already have proved, high tech equipment is not enough to win a war.

Already hundreds of fighters are involved in the armed resistance movement and the tide keeps rising. Despite the media's attempts to discredit the guerrillas it is evident that they got ample popular support. Children are exulting in front of destroyed US vehicles, while the occupiers thought that they would be waved with stars and stripes banners.

Now they find themselves in a quagmire which could tern into a new Vietnam. However, for the oppressed peoples the resistance is a dream. They hope that one day the occupants will be forced to leave not only from Iraq. We share this hope and want to support it with our militant solidarity.

We therefore invite all the anti-imperialists who oppose the American Empire without any ideological and religious precondition to start an international collection of funds supporting the Iraqi national resistance movement: we ask every person to donate 10 euros. The Iraqi national resistance front in formation will decide upon their utilisation...


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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Looks like I have to buy this book!
Thanks for posting. I'm going to go look for it. He's dead on right!
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-24-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. it's an eye opener ...
wouldn't it be something if they used textbooks like this in the high schools?

why do we only use textbooks for kids that teach them things like Ben Franklin was a very nice man who said really neat stuff like "a penny saved is a penny earned?"

Sorrows of Empire is an amazing read ... Johnson did a write-up on the Spanish-American war that sounded almost exactly like the lies and press abuses that led up to Iraq ... i posted a recap of this about a week or two ago ... it included such gems as a possible lihop/mihop precipitating event ("remember the Maine"), a Navy investigation that suggested the possibility the explosion on the Maine was an accident that was then covered up, lies in the press by William Randolph Hearst to con the public into supporting war against Spain, the promises to the Filipinos we "liberated" from the Spanish that was then followed by exploiting them ... all this subsequently led to the Filipinos fighting to kick the US out of their country ...

no where have we heard a script like that before ?????

anyway, thanks for dropping by, Tinoire ... your stuff is always great !!
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