WTF is wrong with our military? Why Abu Ghraib? Why Guantanamo?

[Seabiscuit]

Why Afghanistan?

Why are so many young military recruits in these three areas currently (during the past 2-3 years) committing so many atrocities (in violation of international and constitutional law)?

What are they being told to do?

Granted, military instruction is based on an order or command, and you do what you're told to do, you're not supposed to "think" (and this in itself could be considered an evil), but why, oh, why have so many atrocities recently been committed by U.S. "forces" (young volunteer recruits who seemingly either don't know what the fuck they're doing or have no conscience, or have been brainwashed or ordered into having no conscience)???

[chalky]

1. Considering the latest revelations about our "contractors"

I'm starting to wonder if it's the military who's actually responsible for what's going on.

[Seabiscuit]

6. That's a civil law question. But militarily, the reponsibility's still on

the Pentagon's shoulders.

[chalky]

9. If we're looking for answers to "who allowed it to happen", then yes.

But if we're looking for an answer to "who ordered it", or even "who executed it", then maybe we need to dig a little deeper.

[Seabiscuit]

10. I personally want an account of everyone and everything from the bottom

all the way to the top in every instance.

Until then, I won't ever be satisfied about anything in this world, even if the war ended tomorrow.

[loveable liberal]

2. Young, pissed off men, in a crappy situation, getting no support...

and no supervision. It isnt unheard of. Throw in a complete misunderstanding of the culture and you have yourself a recipe for disaster. Shit rolls downhill, starts with the presidunce and ends at the iraqi people. I want the troops to come home and I want iraqi's to have a democratic society. Most of all, I want history to look upon King George as a wastrel, a clown and a tyrant. If I believed in Hell, I think George should go there.

[Seabiscuit]

4. Granted all that. Why now? Why so many atrocities NOW?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

20. The simple answer to your question is, because they were told to. Because

it is now the policy of the U.S. Gov't. courtesy of the Bush administration to torture those who we have captured, who oppose their military conquest, to get information and to intimidate others.

Now, should these military people have refused? Yes. But that's a different subject.

The answer to your question of why so many and why now is the simple answer of because it's the new policy and they were ordered to and they were following orders.

Like good Germans. Oh but some people will be unhappy if I make such a comparison.

[ginnyinWI]

7. it's everything you said, plus two more

1. There is the theory of shared responsibility--people can allow themselves to do worse things when they aren't the only one doing it (think of lynchings, for example).

2. Also, if you give someone power, they will abuse it unless there is some oversight. There is the famous Zimbardo study in psychology where they took an ordinary group of college men and made half "prisoners" and half "guards". The study was supposed to go on for two weeks, but they had to cut it short after only one week, because the "guards" had become so sadistic that it was endangering the physical and mental well-being of the "prisoners". If ordinary guys in a peace-time setting can do this, think how much easier it would be for stressed-out soldiers.

[Seabiscuit]

8. Bingo.

Glad to see someone familiar with Phillip Zimbardo's work.

[ginnyinWI]

23. minored in Psych. :-) n/t

[MountainLaurel]

29. Was that the Stanford experiment?

We just received a video on that for our library.

[lenidog]

3. This isn't anything new its happened in ALL of America's wars

The only difference is that now people are reporting it and people are giving a damn about it.

[Seabiscuit]

5. So where was the Abu Graib and Guantanamo of Vietnam?

And don't say My Lai - that was very different.

We're talking torture and thorough dehumanization here.

Oh, and the only places it happened in WWII was in Japan and Germany -and we weren't the perpetrators.

Don't ever say it's "happened in all America's wars". It's happening now for the first time in its own way.

[chalky]

12. Check out

the latest Frontline.

Check out Waxman's report (pdf file):
http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20050621114229-22109.pdf

Not disagreeing with any of the other posts; in fact, I'll agree that those are some of the building blocks.

Just sayin'--it is possible that it's not (completely) the military who should be supplying the answers here.

[lenidog]

13. In Vietnam it didn't happen in one place it happened all over

in countless little places. Also look up something called the Phoenix Project a little assasination and intelligence gathering project run by the CIA during Vietnam. Then their is the historian James Bacque who claims that at the end of WWII the Western Allies intentionally killed off tens of thousands of POWs by starving them, denying them medical attention, or improperly housing them. Look up the Philipine Insurrection for a taste of how wonderful American troops have been. Looke up the records of the comission set up by Eisenhower after the war to investigate American war crimes and make up you own decision. (basically the comission exonerated everyone but you know how the military can be.)

[DuaneBidoux]

25. It happens in war. Period.

[DELUSIONAL]

11. Lack of Leadership

[opihimoimoi]

14. Lack of Sanity, Reason, Class, and Common Sense

In the Leadership hierchy.....

[Barak And Roll]

15. Sadly, it happens quite simply...

When you teach a group of young men and women to kill or be killed, to hate and dehumanize their enemies, then provide no oversight from an administration that promotes zero accountability across the board, this sort of stuff is going to happen. They're able to suspend their consciences because they don't think the prisoners are human and there's no one there to tell them otherwise.

[ngGale]

16. Contractor's doing their thing at the expense of our...

soldier's and their lives. Or, also Black Ops dressed out. Remember England talking about the man in charge was not regular military?
Seems I remember this. That's why I had to laugh when the Marine's copped the contractor's. It was more than about money, our military is getting busted for it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. Nothing new here.

Might as well ask "why My Lai? Why did so many GIs in Vietnam take ears as trophies and rape women in VC villages?"

There are two phrases you should keep in mind, that explain the actions of the US military: "the end justifies the means", and "it became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it". That's the mentality at work here, at least in the upper echelons of command; the actions of the low-level troops are probably engendered in part by that,and in part by the fact that they've been propagandised to see the enemy as subhuman savages. And again, there's nothing new about it; this is as old as warfare, which means as old as civilisation...

[bklyncowgirl]

18. Given the stress these soldiers are under I'm surprised it isn't worse.

These soldiers were thrown into a situation where they are dealing with a culture they do not understand, by a government who, in its rush to war, did not even consider the idea that the Iraqi's might resent being occupied by a foreign power.

Many of them are poorly equipped. They see contractors who are not subject to the same rules and regulations they are making far more money than they are.

There's no accountability high up in the chain of command. The rule is do what you have to do but if you get caught we'll throw your ass to the wolves. You're one of the bad apples.

The people who they were told they were going to help hate their guts.

The enemy strikes without warning. That car coming toward you could be a family out for a drive--or it could be a suicide bomber. They're not slowing down. What do you do? It's your life in a split second decision and if it turns out you blew up a carload of kids you're going to live with that for the rest of your life.

Any questions why these troops are going crazy?

[many a good man]

19. Failure of leadership

In times of war human nature leads to the susceptibility to commit atrocities. Military leadership is required to reign in these natural impulses. When leadership fails, atrocities occur.

[Algorem]

21. idiot sadists like in these e-mails to editor,

How should U.S. handle its 'guests' at Gitmo?

Saturday, June 25, 2005

What should happen to the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay?


Gitmo's Camp Delta should ignore Sen. Dick Durbin, the International Red Cross and Amnesty International. Remove the Korans. Detainees are not entitled to constitutional or Geneva Convention rights.

[e-mail]

The detainees get three meals a day, housing, clothing, bedding, exercise, no financial worries and their Korans; show me an indigent who wouldn't change places with them. Let them eat cake - at Gitmo

[e-mail]...

Close Guantanamo and release the detainees to the custody and care of Cain Park in Cleveland Heights. The liberals, progressives, or whatever they're calling themselves now, can surely nurture them to a tolerant, inclusive lifestyle.

[e-mail]...

Pull their air-conditioning and give them as much heat as the people on the upper floors of the World Trade Center felt on 9/11.

Joseph.Kerner @huntington.com

http://www.cleveland.com/letters/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1119692259225520.xml&coll=2

[Jose Diablo]

22. I don't think it is our 'regular' soldiers doing this

I think if the truth were known, the ones doing the worst are troops that followed Negroponti to Iraq, as mercs.

During Pinochet's Chili many soldiers in Chili were blooded, so to say, to use torture as a means toward an end. Many of these 'soldiers' being experienced could get top money from a security corporation to be a 'contractor' in Iraq.

Also, during Reagan's war in Central America on behalf of the United Fruit Company, Negroponti being an American Ambassidor would be able to recruit many 'soldiers' accustomed to killing ministers and nuns in that war against socialism. These 'soldiers' could also be valuable assets for someone like Negroponti to use in Iraq. What is the timing on the stories of torture in Iraq and when did Negroponti become Ambassador to Iraq?

He might even use them here, in the USA, as he is now a big shot in 'internal security'.

[DuaneBidoux]

24. Nothing is wrong. Everything is going as it always does.

In situations of harm and aggression around you everyday you eventually (yes, even you a "progressive") descend to the levels around you. This is not a surprise. What is a surprise is that it doesn't happen more.

Progressives tend to see "politics" and "racism" in a car chase that ends with 10 police beating up a suspect that they pull out of a car, but it is biochemistry and the supreme domination of the limbic system and reptilian brain in a moment of stress and aggression. Actual brain research has found that electrical charges from the reptilian center of the brain reach the arms and legs much faster than any kind of signal from the cerebrum. The problem is that the reptilian centers respond to fear (fight or flight) and the cerebrum then (just a few milliseconds after the blow is struck) says "Oh shit, what have I just done and why did I do it?"

Shit like this happens in war: it is one of many excellent reasons why war is the absolute last recourse that should ever be taken. Understand I am not making an excuse. Understanding what happens does not excuse it. In any case the real crime lies with the man who made the decision to take us to war based on a pack of lies.

[kitkat65]

26. One certain factor: the Iraq-al Qaeda connection lie

I started a thread about this yesterday.

One DUer wrote that a buddy back from Iraq said that military leaders try to get the troops pumped up by stirring up hatred against the Muslims that were responsible for the WTC attack.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1883476&mesg_id=1883476

[PATRICK]

27. I'll take a stab

on a big overview. ANY human is prone to worse things than one likes to imagine in the routine of a peaceful existence. The US has poured a lot into war production and technology but really has not advanced much in the qualities and discipline that would avoid atrocities or even be ready for the circumstances.

Always the shrug about, "Who cares how educated(in Liberal Arts, sneer) the officer corps is?" "Who care about people skills. They are only for killing." The arrogance of the undisputed top dog is contagious. The capacity of ignorance to go from surprise to rage to denial is endless.

Our soldiers are not worse than other as persons. The Brits have Empire training how mainly to HIDE the bad stuff and suppress what upsets the locals. And they LOST their Empire. Some armies have better cultural strengths to withstand the pressures of war or be better fighters. peacekeepers like the Canadians are steered away by the terms of their mission and now, long practice.

Americans are like bulls in a China shop and the difference now is that, unlike the occupying armies of WWII, they are not draftees fresh out from all walks of life, but an ideologically misgroomed and wrongly trained professional war machine. But most of all the corruption pours down from on top to push them into the abuses.

Maybe so that when the chips are down, Bush can blame the soldiers he ordered into war crimes to be the buffer protecting him and his chickenhawk henchmen from the tribunals. It is so instinctual our glorious leaders need not have overtly planned it- they might have- but gosh, that sure works out good for them no matter what. Ironically it is an excuse to trash the Geneva Conventions under cover of protecting our poor boys and girls. The same Rovian circular crime spinning so fast it can't be stopped juggernaut.

[mandomom]

28. Nothing's wrong with them.

They are in war. Every single war in history has had such ugly events as Gitmo and Abu Graib. The rapid dissemination of news and the grinning ass-slapping secret approval by this administration just makes it all the more public and disgraceful than ever before. Put you or me in a hard battle with little training and lots of patriotism/fear/rage/religious rantings before hand, especially right after an event like 9/11, and anyone of us could go off-kilter. The issue here is, how transparent does Pres. Cuckobananas dare to be in resolving the issue? Lies do not work. But does he know any other way?

[DinahMoeHum]

30. Piss. Poor. Leadership.

Says it all.



:grr:

[FrenchieCat]

31. easy....

It's the civilian leadership at the top, stupid!

Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, and all the rest of them. They decide the policies.

The Civilian leadership is more what's always been wrong with our military than the soldiers and the officers. The leadership decide the policies...the military just implements them. Add contractors to the mix, and you've got a real f*cked situation.

[1democracy]

32. Redefined "torture"

to be only things that threaten system shut- down and death, done by our now attorney general. We've defined it away so they can say it's not torture because they said it's not.

The real question is why would ANYONE condone torture? In a democracy, we must convince each other via rational thought. This administration believes it can redefine reality-- see above, as well as "clear skies initiative, editing scientists' reports on global warming, and creating 'evidence' that Iraq had WMD and drones flying toward our coastlines, and nuclear bombs. SURPRISE! Just because they said it didn't make it true!

Don't you think they were desperate to find WMD? They didn't believe there were none when the Iraqis said no. They thought they were lying and so the torture was instituted to find their "modified" truth. They had to find them or else we'd find out they made the whole thing up. But how could they be wrong ? They were sure Saddam was a bad man, he'd hurt people before, therefore he must have WMD. It shows how "judging others" without moderating that with facts can lead to insanity. It is the triumph of hubris over rational thought.
Reality doesn't yield to power.

Now, back to the torure... Remember "Shock and Awe"? They want the Iraqis to fall on their knees before the power and the glory forever of GWB. They want Iraqi prisoners to fall to their knees and beg for mercy. They want to rule by fear-- which is the abode of those who are unable to use rational thought to convince others.

They view fear as a necessary shortcut, since they are unable to convince anyone using facts (because their 'facts' are not valid). They also use fear to rule us, threatening another attack etc. The rule of fear is the antithesis of democracy which is based on the enlightenment idea of truth as definable by intellect. Truth as defined by fear is coercion, not actual truth at all but the work of a egomaniacial bully .