On female soldiers....

[catnhatnh]

1.There were none near us in basic training in '72
2.At some point that changed and "coed" basic became the norm.
3.Old basic training standards were downgraded.

All the above is the truth,dance on it how you will.The pertinent point was basic army training of 1972 was directed towards producing a fresh flock of mos 11 categories for an ongoing conflict.Every (in the vernacular)"swinging Richard" had to meet a PT standard to prepare for the "rigors" of combat arms.Modern basic (from what I can ascertain) is more suited to allowing BOTH sexes to display a more modest level of physical fitness and then matriculate to an appropriate specialty.That said the following is also true...

4.The '72 training standards were centered on performances more suited to males...ie:upper body strength-a drill Sergeant who yelled "Gimme 50", had he meant squat thrusts may have been amazed at who the top performers were.
5.The demands themselves were pretty much "quaint"...other than direct infantry (humping a ruck) or artillery (loading shells) assignments, most PT requirements were overkill.The 101st fighting clerks seldom lifted a file for 50 reps.
6.Women have performed both magnificently and poorly as was my prior experience with the males of the all male units I trained with.
I'll continue to mourn for every US loss-I'll miss the women, and I'll miss the men.Each had a promise for great things whether just as a good family person or a superstar or as a leader.They will each leave a gaping hole of accomplishments that sadly we cannot see.

[lebkuchen]

1. You may appreciate these sentiments.

Since I have no military experience, I rely on the views of those who do.

Take care.


June 25, 2005

Women already on front lines

The thought of our females in uniform actively engaged in killing our enemies makes me think twice. Part of me wants to save our women at all costs, and would limit combat roles to males. Another part of me admires the patriotism exemplified by our sisters in uniform, but I still don’t want them exposed to danger.

If front lines existed, this old-fashioned, perhaps overprotective, 53-year-old soldier would want to keep all women and children safe. However, with terrorism eliminating “front lines,” in my opinion “women in combat” is hardly an issue anymore.

Sgt. Michael Auw
Camp Anaconda, Iraq

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=29950

[catnhatnh]

2. Bingo...

in fact I am 51,have never seen combat, but have been in the army.I am sure my views are outdated, but that is the nature of life.I was raised to believe in a "gentler sex" but later learned a label can be a jail cell.In short my mind says one thing and my heart another.I suspect this is the ongoing human condition...

[lebkuchen]

7. Bush doesn't consider you too "antique"

In fact, the Bushies have been prodding and suggesting continued military service to retirees who are ten years older than you are. Bush has sent out little medals in glossing covers with a jingoistic letter hinting that retirees' service is still of value to this administration. I doubt he means "typing skills."

[SouthernDem2004]

3. I have been to BCT more recently then the 70s :)

If you have a combat MOS you do not train with women since you go straight to AIT from basic. The only female I saw was when we went into town right before we graduated. Heck, we were to tired to care.

[catnhatnh]

4. Ok...

...is that still how it works?Saw a tv show on basic that made it seem way different from my antique time...what years for you?

[Beaver Tail]

5. A soldier is a solider

I feel just as bad when a male soldier dies as when a female soldier dies. Women (to me) are equals and capable of doing any job I can do so I will not view them differently or feel for them differently than I would a man doing the same job.

It is a matter of equality

[HeeBGBz]

6. When I went in in 85

Women were seperate from the men in basic. (There were some noted incidences of "fraternization" between enlistee's and drill sergeants)

AIT was coed for the classes but still barracks were separate male/female.

[Qanisqineq]

8. I'm with you

I am a female and I am sick and tired of hearing about how 3 or 4 of the soldiers that died the other day are WOMEN. Gasp! Oh no! Not WOMEN! It is just as sad when a man dies as when a woman dies. Maybe everyone should make this big of a fuss EVERY TIME A SOLDIER, MAN OR WOMAN, DIES.

[ElectroPrincess]

9. Oh please,

The standards were NOT downgraded merely a second set was established for the woman soldier. I always maxed the Women's standards and scored average on the Mens. Guess What? I'm not unusual, in that, many women, can get into excellent shape.

I work with girls of 10-12 who have EARNED first and second degree black belts in martial arts. No they can't hump packs for 12 miles on forced road marches, but they sure can do some damage to anyone who attempts to violate them physically.

I understand that it may be difficult, considering women with 1972 biased male mindset, but in the modern military, you need less pure infantry BULK strength and ability to hump 70 pounds on force road march, and more conditioning and good judgment.

What does it take for a skilled war fighter? It takes intelligence, good physical shape, and a desire to serve one's country.

I despise war, however, I was honored to serve my country in the US Army and to be one of the first women through US ARMY Infantry School - Airborne, during 1979.

It sounds silly but I think keeping a skilled US military presence was/can be a good deterrent to war. Again, I'd rather be fighting along side a SKILLED, EXCELLENT physical shape, fellow woman than any man who wishes to push women's roles back to the 1950s.

The same mindset kept people of color segregated from whites throughout WWII. Discrimination is SIMPLY discrimination. Nope, you can no longer receive empathy for wishing to "push down" an entire class of humanity.

[Skittles]

10. I outshot all the men in weapons

every damn one of them

[ElectroPrincess]

11. Good for you Skittles! Expert Qualification

I was told by many Drill Sergeants fresh from serving in Vietnam (during the late 70s) that Women often out-shot Men during Basic Training because they "listened" better and didn't anticipate a recoil of a hunting rifle and a shotgun, i.e., not much from an M-16.

Yes, us *co-eds* can be true assets to the old testosterone laden Infantry Only mindsets.

Also, I am trying to understand the perspective of the thread starter. I know you were attempting to complement the contribution of women soldiers ... I regret if I hurt your sensibilities, it's just that your delivery was inadvertently presented as a backhanded complement.

But I know that, overall, you value Women's contributions to the Modern Military, so I hope you "cut me some slack" with regard to my blunt response above.

Cheers! EP

[catnhatnh]

12. Take all the slack you need...

...sounds like you were a far better soldier than I....I KNOW my mindset is dated.When I posted the thread I also knew "downgraded" was gonna catch me some grief,but I also know that several times I was told to "Knock me out 50" and that during a recent documentary on BCT some enlistees needed multiple attempts at the final PT test to do 25 push ups (and no-not just females....).So while I failed to find a word with less negative connotations than "downgraded",I stand by my remarks...But certainly no offense taken-Freepers got the only discussion board with only one opinion....And cheers right back at'cha

[ElectroPrincess]

13. Yes, you're one of us ...

And thank you kindly for being so understanding of the heartache those of us gals who were integrated first had to take from the Neanderthal freepers. I just don't want future women soldiers to have to tolerate all the *bad experiences* I had to endure. Thanks again, only a true gentleman could express the thoughtful views above. Best, EP

:yourock: :hi:

Better soldier? No way, but I like to do my part. ;)

[catnhatnh]

14. You're....

A. Most welcome
AND
B. A most gracious lady.

Half the trick in being a good democratic dinosaur is realizing you're a dinosaur to begin with...