Bush and the Repubs have gotten us into a war we cannot end ....

[kentuck]

and we cannot win. It's a war that goes on forever. There is no end possible. Even the Democrats in our Congress are tied to the "war on terror" and the continuing goal of winning the war. When the Middle East is awash in democracy, we will then declare victory? However, even if Iraq were to get some semblance of democracy, the "terrorists" would only move elsewhere. There are over a billion Arabs that we have pissed off. Many of them are young and ready to fight the evil "Satan"...America cannot match them soldier for soldier...But where does it end?

[JHBowden]

1. Here's a solution

Stop the democracy bullshit and install puppet governments. That way, we can brutally repress the fundamentalist insurgents with the most brutal means without getting blamed for it, and help out our strategic and economic interests at the same time.

[jmcon007]

24. That's what Bush, Condi and Co. are preparing to do in Venezuela

to that democratically elected government. Know why? Because Chavez is charging Exxon a 26% royalty on the oil they are taking out of the country so he can have cash to rebuild the infrastructure and feed the poor.
Exxon is pissed, which means that Bush is pissed, which means we should be hearing something about a "gathering threat to America in South America" any day now.

[still_one]

2. you hit the nail exactly on the head, however

there are democrats who would get us out of Iraq:

Russ Feingold
Barbara Boxer
Bill Moyers

You are correct though, the odds favor that the DNC will nominate a candidate that will NOT take us out of Iraq. Eventually, we will be forced to leave, we cannot sustain the cost, both human, and monetary

[justinsb]

4. Leaving won't do it.

It will lower the expenses and spare those particular soldiers for the time being, but it won't bring an end to it.

[still_one]

19. and neither will we

in fact is as long as we remain there we stand as a unifying force for the people that want us out

WE INVADED THEIR COUNTRY! What do you expect

In Viet Nam the killing stopped ONLY AFTER WE LEFT

[kentuck]

6. There are some Democrats but they are in the minority....

at least, in the Congress and Senate. For political reasons, I do not see either Party calling for an end to this bullshit.

[still_one]

20. then we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of Viet Nam

and lose thousands of more Americans, kill thousands of more civilians, until finally the people say enough is enough, and we pull out, which we will do. It is there country, they can wait forever, we can't

[POAS]

9. Don't forget Dennis

[still_one]

21. you are absolutely right

I was just throwing names out

Unfortunately, I don't think any of them are going to win the nomination, and we will be there for years, until the Americans realize that the cost is too much

If we really wanted to win the war, we would become energy independent, by slowly getting off oil

[justinsb]

3. Decades of on again off again war or

A public meeting with middle east leaders and prominent clerics where a US president apologizes, announces a complete pullout of US troops, ships, planes etc from the region, promises not to interfere in ME politics, and offers to pay war reperations. The muslim leaders may have other requests as well and the US should be open to them.

[JHBowden]

5. That's would just make them more ambitious

We were attacked on 9-11, keep in mind, because the United States won't allow the destruction of Israel.

[kentuck]

7. Hey! What's Israel got to do with it ??

:) They never got involved in the war.

[JHBowden]

8. I'm sorry. It is "Zionist occupying entity"

The major grievance in the area is the large Jewish population living in Palestine, which many Muslims want cleansed. Many governments in the region (including Iran) do not acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

I do not think the United States should be open to this demand.

[justinsb]

11. I don't know that I acknowledge it either

I have no problem with jewish people, or the jewish faith, I acknowledge Jewish people's right to live in peace and practice their faith but I'm not sure by what right they can create a Jewish state in a place where muslim people already live, and have lived for a very long time. I'm afraid that I don't see the difference between the history of Israel/Palestine over the last century and the history of whites and aboriginals in North America over the century before.

[JHBowden]

13. Driving "The Jews" into the Mediterranean

should not be an object of support of Democrats.

[justinsb]

14. I didn't say that

I don't know that anyone did. I think that Jewish people have a right to live there, I also think the Palistenians do that is what they have to work out. I do not think there should be an exclusively Jewish or an exclusively Muslim state.

[JHBowden]

15. The clerical leadership in Iran is saying it.

I think we can agree we should *not* be "open" to this.

[justinsb]

16. No, but I think there is a middle ground

something along the lines of 'joint rule' including a right of return, that might appease enough people in the middle east to steal the thunder from the hardliners.

[justinsb]

10. I don't think that's why

I think Isreal may have been a part of it. But on the whole, the US was attacked on 9/11 because of decades of propping up dictators, arming sociopaths, and ultimately because the US created bin laden in the first place.

The "if we give in to their demands they'll just want more" is a neocon line that has never actually been tested. Nothing has ever been given, so who knows what the reaction would be?

[JHBowden]

12. Here is what Osama bin Laden had to say about it

A lot of his bullshit sounds like it was taken right out of Mein Kampf.

"The enmity between us and the Jews goes far back in time and is deep rooted. There is no question that war between the two of us is inevitable. For this reason it is not in the interest of Western governments to expose the interests of their people to all kinds of retaliation for almost nothing. It is hoped that people of those countries will initiate a positive move and force their governments not to act on behalf of other states and other sects. This is what we have to say and we pray to Allah to preserve the nation of Islam and to help them drive their enemies out of their land."

"American presence in the Gulf provides support to the Jews and protects their rear. And while millions of Americans are homeless and destitute and live in abject poverty, their government is busy occupying our land and building new settlements and helping Israel build new settlements in the point of departure for our Prophet's midnight journey to the seven heavens. America throws her own sons in the land of the two Holy Mosques for the sake of protecting Jewish interests. ...

The American government is leading the country towards hell. ... We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests not the interests of the Jews. If the present injustice continues with the wave of national consciousness, it will inevitably move the battle to American soil, just as Ramzi Yousef and others have done. This is my message to the American people. I urge them to find a serious administration that acts in their interest and does not attack people and violate their honor and pilfer their wealth. ..."

frontline interview 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

[KoKo]

17. And, some of us hold open the question of who attacked us, and why

and given the lies we've seen just now being exposed, we shouldn't be too hasty to think that Usama was behind it, that he's what we think he is, that he's still alive or that it was for the reasons we've been told or think we know. :shrug: To many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain.

[justinsb]

18. Yes...I know

Bin Laden was a CIA agent. Somehow I have a hard time believing that he stopped being a CIA agent on 9/10.

[CJCRANE]

27. But there is no "war".

Al-Qaeda were "flies" before 9/11, a very small group. No Middle East country has attacked or declared war on the US.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. War without end, amen

n/t

[CJCRANE]

23. Get some-one

like Wesley Clark in. He's a realist and a pragmatist.

The way to convert the Middle East to democracy is through trade and slow cultural change. As the middle class gets richer and more educated, and the kids watch more MTV, they will slowly edge towards more liberal versions of democracy.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

25. Why can't we end it, aside from pride?

[kentuck]

28. Fear...

Political fear. Most of the elected representatives are afraid to present an alternative to the "creating a democracy" argument. They fear of being defined as a "cut and run" liberal...

[welshTerrier2]

26. i really disagree with your reasoning but not your conclusion

too many have come to accept the idea that, if we leave now, "all those terrorists" would turn Iraq into a rogue, terrorist state ... your argument is that even if we succeed in Iraq, the "weeds" will just pop up in another part of the lawn ... my view is that the "weeds" in Iraq are primarily Iraqi nationals with no desire to attack the US outside Iraq's borders ... i also believe bush, Obama and others are beating the war drums with increased allegations that foreign "terrorists" are coming into Iraq at increasing rates ... that's a great way to justify an attack on other countries in the region ...

it's too bad more people didn't participate in this thread on the subject: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1884895

the thread picks apart the premise on which most Senate Dems and Dr. Dean build their case for the "we're stuck there" point of view ...

the two key points are:
1. it would NOT be too difficult to restrict movement across Iraq's border and
2. thus far, most of the "insurgents" are Iraqi nationals ... there is no evidence that they have ever "exported terrorism" or pose any threat whatsoever to the US or its citizens ...

the view of a "post occupation" rogue, terrorist state in Iraq is just not right ...

i do agree with your analysis, however, that US foreign policy has alienated, not only Arabs and other Muslims all over the world, but many other nations and cultures as well ... we have not been good global citizens for many, many years and we will be a much weaker nation because of it ...

[kentuck]

29. I disagree...to the extent...

that this war is not isolated in Iraq. Most of the suicide bombers are not from Iraq but from other Arab countries, I have heard stated. If that is true, this excursion into Iraq is having a negative impact in the entire Arab world. We do not know what kind of world we are creating over there. I believe we may indeed be creating a "war on terrorism" that never really existed before. We are poisoning our relationships or possible relationships in the Middle East for decades to come. I do agree that the majority of "insurgents" in Iraq are Iraqis. And they are winning.

[welshTerrier2]

31. i agree that the longer we stay, the worse off all people are ...

i read somewhere that 99% of the "insurgents" killed or captured were Iraqi nationals ... i also heard last week (i think Biden said it but not sure) that it would be easy to restrict movement across the border with as few as 5 or 6 thousand troops ...

my only point is to emphasize that we are not "stuck there" ... the view that Iraq will become a breeding ground for terrorism is just not right ...

i'm in total agreement with you that we are alienating other countries thoughout the region and that there will likely be many more people drawn to a jihad against the US ... continuing the occupation in Iraq and America's imperialistic abuses throughout the world is putting this country at very grave risk ...

[many a good man]

30. As long as the major powers benefit from instability, it will not end

USA: "justifies" our presence and control over resources in SW and Central Asia
Israel: keeps Arab govts from uniting; maintains Israeli political unity
Pro-US regimes: helps them clamp down on anti-colonialist dissenters
Anti-US regimes: encourages popular support despite oppression
Islamic extremists: provides raison d'etre
China, Russia, & Europe: drain on US strengthens their own economic competitiveness

A lot of groups benefit politically from instability and bloodshed. These groups are business leaders and politicians, not people. The people everywhere only lose.

It will take a miracle to change the dynamic so that these groups can actually benefit from stability and peace. With growing demand and falling supplies of oil worldwide the outlook does not look promising. The people all around must unite to put an end to this madness.


I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

[duhneece]

32. Reminds me of some children's TV show theme song

This is the war we cannot end.
Yes it goes on & on, my friend.
The Repubs started it, not knowing what it was,
& they'll continue killing folks forever, just because...

[Karenina]

33. They're SAND NIGGERS

and they're sittin' on OUR OIL
Just RAGHEADS
Time to bring the pot to boil
Bomb their homes, kill their kids
DESTROY their way of life
Can't take over their resources
while the place is rife with
SAND NIGGERS.