Christians and Homosexuality

[BOSSHOG]

Some might consider this a bash but allow me a question. Not too many years ago christians were opposed to the alleged and evil hedonistic lifestyle of the homosexual community. It was just wrong. So recently homosexuals have asked society to let them settle down and get married. Christian response? Amend the constitution and prevent that from happening. Can someone explain that to me. Per christian dogma, they can't do it in the street and they can't do it in the marital bed. Is this still America?

[fasttense]

1. Not the America I use to know and love. n/t

[lynettebro440]

2. Didn't you get the memo

It's now called Bushco of America.

[gkhouston]

3. pretty broad brush you're using there

some Christian churches are "welcoming" or "open and affirming": they actively welcome homosexuals into the life of the church. Others don't explicitly welcome gays but they don't spit on them, either. I personally have a low opinion of the sects which condemn homosexuality, but I'm not going to smear all Christians for the intolerance of some.

[teenagebambam]

5. I will second the opinion

that not all Christians are opposed to gays. As a gay man that works at the National Cathedral in DC, I hear, almost weekly, sermons affirming a progressive Christian viewpoint - preached to a congregation that on any given week is composed of tourists from all over the country, many of them I'm certain from crimson states (based on the walkouts). Yesterday's sermon, for example (and I paraphrase): "Isn't it possible the Jesus is calling us to expand our definition of family?"

[BOSSHOG]

8. Thank you for your post

I will thank you again when you give me feedback to my question. As a Gay Man you surely must have some thoughts on the subject. Or per your feedback, if not all christians oppose gays, I guess gay hating and gay bashing by "christians" is just a moot, silly little point. Not all southern whites lynched black citizens so I guess we just ignore that atrocity.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

19. I chose my congregation based on its openness to gays

I'm not gay myself, but I certainly don't want to worship God among homophobes. Many of the mainline Protestant denominations are "getting religion" on this subject and are being more open and accepting.

[LTRS]

20. Fact is, the real Christians are far too silent

When the Christian community sits back, remains mostly mute, and lets the extremists speak for them they shouldn't be surprised that sooner or later people will begin to think that Christianity stands for hate mongering, warmongering, bigotry.

I think that later time has already come. As it stands now real Christians have been content to sit silent on the sidelines. While many will SAY they don't ascribe to the hate spewing from the Christian right they don't speak up. Until they do speak up and march beside us, plenty will think the extremists speak for all Christians.

Perception is as good as reality. Always has been, always will be.

[BOSSHOG]

6. Me and my broad brush

If you ain't hating in the name of Jesus Christ I didn't paint you. I would appreciate you taking another crack at my original question. No one wants to answer it, its not the first time I asked. And no one wants to point out to me where in the Constitution does it state homosexuals can't get married. And why aren't christians (there I go again) stoning to death people who work on the sabbath. Is it because (some) christians just pick and choose in the bible what suits them? Christians work on sunday so ya can't abidith by that section, but keep that old testament warmed up for future gay bashing. I'm not the one who is trying to destroy our country by codifying religious beliefs. If you object to such actions, you have no reason to fear me.

[gkhouston]

7. Buffet Christianity; this is new? I'll be the first to agree that it's

hypocritical, just as soon as I separate my meat dishes from my milk dishes. ;-)

[ComerPerro]

12. That's what I hate too. The picking and choosing

The same book that supposedly says that homosexuality is evil also has quite a few other guidelines that Christians seem to have no problem negelcting.

If someone is going to say that the Bible is the literal word of God and is not open to interpretation, then they must hold to that. They can't selectively decide what parts are literal and what parts are just "guidelines".

[BOSSHOG]

13. Why do you hate Christians?

Why do you paint with a broad brush? Can't we all get along? By the way, do you work on the sabbath? You are quite a rationale sort, ComerPerro; I keep up with your posts. Please splain to me why homosexuals can't be hedonists and they can't get married IN AMERICA? And please splain to me when I ask the question I'm accused of having a big ole paint brush? Fuck a bunch of christian hurt feelings. The offended christians will want the likes of me around when some zealot yahoo decides to push a constitutional amendment restricting their liberties.

[ComerPerro]

21. Just so we're clear

Are you saying:

Why is it that homosexuals are attacked for thier "hedonistic ways", such as having sex out of Gods favor or without his approval. And why at the same time are they not allowed to actually get married, in order to have an "approved" sexual relationship?


Or did I completely miss the point?

Because, I have often wondered that myself.


A good example: Gays can't adopt children, because they have unstable relationships (they are unmarried). But gays can't get married, because then they will want to adopt children.

[LTRS]

22. That seems to sum it up for me

... but then this isn't so much about religious beliefs (if so, they wouldn't be buffet style). It's basically about using the bible to justify their bigotry. Not the first time Christians have made a habit out of doing that.

[BOSSHOG]

28. Yes, or to put it another way

Why do christians spend so many waking hours hating other people? The religious right is a vicious, hate filled movement with so many faults of its own. I believe their actions are totally unamerican which is the only thing that matters to this veteran while living in America. Thanks for replying.

[RobertDevereaux]

31. Yes, it's the pretense of *not* picking and choosing, as...

well as their misinterpretation of the passages chosen (fixing the verses around the bigotry, one might call it!), that bugs me about so-called Biblical literalists.

Moreover, they turn a blind eye to the history of Biblical literalism.

Take two issues: slavery and interracial marriage.

Who found support for slavery, and later state laws that forbade the marriage of blacks and whites, in the Bible? Why Biblical literalists did. And indeed they found far deeper support for slavery especially, than they do today for the anti-GLBT stance.

But somehow, those passages are way off the radar screen (except for the most wacko of the wacky) today.

Did God change his mind? I guess so!

[Touchdown]

16. So only "some Christians" want to stone me to death.

Thanks. That makes me feel so much better.:eyes:

[elehhhhna]

4. Godislove. Pass it on.

[Ioo]

9. Here is a very detailed bit of info...

http://www.lionking.org/~kovu/bible/toc.html

It goes over it all, and shows that the bible is not anti gay at all...

[BOSSHOG]

11. Thank you very much and a belated welcome, however

there are human beings in this country who hate in the name of Jesus Christ; who carry around the bible and refer to it when it is convenient; who want to codify their relgious beliefs. They would deny a significant portion of our population constitutional liberties based on their religious beliefs. Please would someone take a crack at my question(s)? I appreciate the info on the bible however the bible is totally irrelevant when it comes to the governance and the freedom of American Citizens. Imagine a country where one could not worship freely. That would not be America and that is exactly the kind of country christian religious zealots want.

[donco6]

10. Christians will say, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

And will use this to oppose all sorts of things that could actually level the playing field for gays. In reality, however, I find it most often a smokescreen for plain old hatred.

I used to be a fundamentalist. Today I have nothing to do with any version of Christianity whatsoever.

[Ufour20]

14. This is why they hate....

The problem not only with fundamentalist Christians but with Republicans in general is not that they act on blind faith, without thinking. The problem is that they are incorrigible doubters with an insatiable appetite for Evidence. What they get off on is not Believing, but in having their beliefs tested. That's why their conversations and their media are so completely dominated by implacable bogeymen: marrying gays, liberals, the ACLU, Sean Penn, Europeans and so on. Their faith both in God and in their political convictions is too weak to survive without an unceasing string of real and imaginary confrontations with those people -- and for those confrontations, they are constantly assembling evidence and facts to make their case.
But here's the twist. They are not looking for facts with which to defeat opponents. They are looking for facts that ensure them an ever-expanding roster of opponents. They can be correct facts, incorrect facts, irrelevant facts, it doesn't matter. The point is not to win the argument, the point is to make sure the argument never stops. Permanent war isn't a policy imposed from above; it's an emotional imperative that rises from the bottom. In a way, it actually helps if the fact is dubious or untrue (like the Swift-boat business), because that guarantees an argument. You're arguing the particulars, where you're right, while they're arguing the underlying generalities, where they are.

Once you grasp this fact, you're a long way to understanding what the Hannitys and Limbaughs figured out long ago: These people will swallow anything you feed them, so long as it leaves them with a demon to wrestle with in their dreams.

[donco6]

15. I believe you're right.

That's why it's so intensely frustrating to try to argue with a Freeper-type. They have no interest in settling the argument; in fact, they have a vested interest in keeping the argument going for as long as possible.

Good insight, and welcome to DU.

[PurityOfEssence]

17. A few random thoughts on the hatred of gays

Extremist Christians hate and are scared of sex, and many of them are jealous as hell of anyone who allows him/herself the pleasure. Many crave sex (and many crave gay sex) but deny themselves. Much of the anger is from the perception that "they're having it all the time, and I NEVER get laid".

Such extremists presume that the only real connection between "those people" is one of sex, when personal, emotional attraction is just as "real" as between straights; hence, the assumption is that their whole world is founded on the base, animalistic and sinful, rather than the beauteous and romantic. This makes them evil.

Considering how disgusted many of these loonies are by straight sex, "weird" sex REALLY freaks them out.

Many extreme believers are really deeply lonely and need to belong. They need to know that there's a Sky Daddy who will give them the love they've been denied if they just try hard enough, and belonging and trying hard enough means hanging around with a bunch of truly shit-headed bigots; they ape that behavior for further approval, and with time, group opinions become theirs.

Fervent religious belief is based upon certainty of complete understanding of the universe; things that don't fit are to be destroyed, because not only are they obviously wrong, the mere existence freaks out the believer and screws with the fear-based need to never encounter anything not understood.

To the fundy, everything is backward: fun is bad, joy can only be had when approved of by the big whatever, and everything perceivable is completely unimportant, while that which can't be seen (the afterlife and gobbledygook like that) is all that matters.

Amusingly, one of the English Language's funniest writers, Oscar Wilde, was upstaged by his lawyer. To me, the funniest line from Wilde's life wasn't his own, but the man representing him in a sodomy trial: "frankly, I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses."

[donco6]

27. Good thoughts.

>>Extremist Christians hate and are scared of sex, and many of them are jealous as hell of anyone who allows him/herself the pleasure. Many crave sex (and many crave gay sex) but deny themselves. Much of the anger is from the perception that "they're having it all the time, and I NEVER get laid".

>>Such extremists presume that the only real connection between "those people" is one of sex, when personal, emotional attraction is just as "real" as between straights; hence, the assumption is that their whole world is founded on the base, animalistic and sinful, rather than the beauteous and romantic. This makes them evil.

Yes - and that's one point I always use when arguing with some Fundy. "Y'know, Mr. Fundy, someday I'll be old and incapable of having sex anymore. And since homosexuality really is only about sex, I guess at that point I'll have stopped being gay. But you, sir, will go to your grave being the ignorant, hateful, self-righteous bastard you are today."

[tenshi816]

29. The "frighten the horses" comment

was actually attributed to Mrs. Patrick Campbell, one of the most successful British actresses of her generation, who was the first to play Eliza Doolittle in George Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion (Shaw wrote the part for her). According to Mrs. Campbell's biographer, Alan Dent, she made the comment to a young actress who was fretting about an older male actor in a stage production displaying too much "affection" for the leading man.

But no matter who said it first, it's priceless.

Good post, BTW. You hit the nail on the head about fundies and their fear of sex, and your "Sky Daddy" reference cracked me up.

[Touchdown]

18. It's standard double standards.

They had a good thing going with the hedonistic, promiscuous, AIDS is God's judgement, yada, yada. See for them to feel better than us, they have to show that we are truly the degenerates they say we are. So they make sure we can only open our bars in seedy parts of town, shut down our other meeting places, so we have to go to parks and waterfronts to meet each other. It's all about "See what vermin they are?"

Now comes Marriage. Respectability. If we show that we can be just as monogamous, loving, and BORING as they are, then they will have no more arguments about our "debauchery and hedonism". So they have to oppose gay marriage to make sure we are promiscuous, uncommitted, and immature.

[theboss]

23. Well, it's not longer a crime to do it.....

That's a plus, isn't it?

I'm sorry, but I find the final question odd. Forty years ago, you could be in prison for homosexual behavior in America. So, it's not like a shroud of intolerance has suddenly fallen.

[LTRS]

24. Wow, what progress!

We're finally able to be intimate with each other in the privacy of our own homes without fear of arrest! Woo fuckin hoo!

So of course why are we bitching about such silly things like social security survivor benefits, the right not to fired from our jobs for being gay or lesbian, the right to marry, adopt (in many cases our OWN children), and hold property together without paying inheritance taxes, etc, etc, 1000 times (1000 being the number of rights heterosexuals have that homosexuals do not).

I'm sorry, but I find it odd that you find the question to be odd. It's not like we haven't been fighting for our rights for 35 freaking years.

[theboss]

25. Fine...I find the question naive then

That's probably a better word.

I'm on your side in this fight. But I think "America" has to change significantly before gay marriage is a common, accepted practice. I find it akin to a black person in Mississippi in 1952 asking if the abuse he faced was what America was all about. Up until then, on nearly every level, it was. America had to evolve. It still does.

[LTRS]

26. No, that's not the problem at all

The problem is not waiting for the country to evolve, the problem is straight progressives not getting off their butts to help. Yes, they SAY they support equal rights, but most of them do nothing more than just say it in discussion groups like this.

That vast majority of those polled still disapproved of interracial marriage and voting rights for blacks during the civil rights movement, but progressives didn't leave blacks to fight the battle on their own as they have gays and lesbians.

THAT is the problem. There is never a right time to have equality. The time is always right now. Problem is most progressives are all talk and no action. When they decide to put their money and their time where their ideals supposedly are, we will have equal rights.

In the meantime 77% of glbt people are voting for your candidates and donating 20 million dollars a cycle to their campaigns. A little help in return would sure be appreciated.

[1932]

30. I believe bible mentions homosexualty once and it mentions poverty 1000s

of times.

(And homosexuality is mentioned in the chapter which says that it's a sin to handle pigskin and grow two different crops in the same field, IIRC, whereas giving power to the powerless is what the entire bible is all about.)

[noonwitch]

32. The message of Jesus is that we are all children of God

Jesus never condemned homosexuality. Paul did, and the Old Testament also did.

In my opinion, Jesus teachings of "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "judge not, lest ye be judged" are far more important than any prohibition of homosexuality.

One of my coworkers once quoted the whole "abomination before the Lord" thing from Leviticus. I told her "then let the Lord deal with it" and then asked "isn't that from the same part of the Bible that tells us to stone urban rape victims who don't scream?".