Wiccan Rede Monument Project

[Tamyrlin79]

Since it is now okay to have religious monuments at State Capitols, I am calling for all of us to create a "Wiccan Rede Monument Fund" in order to "privately fund" (as the court required) the placement of a monument stating the Wiccan Rede ('An it harm none, do what thou wilt) alongside any 10 Commandments display that the right wing tries to put up...or has already put up.

If they deny our placement of the monument, we challenge the denial as an infringement on our religious freedom and our right to equal access.

Also, it is important to note that you don't have to be a Wiccan to support this. At its base, this effort is about equal access for all religions to public spaces where any one has access. By taking this action and going this route, we can force the issue of whether the state, by having any monuments on public property, is truly being religiously "neutral". It also takes the debate away from the religious nutcases and forces them to deal with their own arguments from another side: "How can you say that the Wiccan Rede doesn't inform American law? It is a statement that a person's freedom should only be limited only when harm is caused, and that is a good line to draw when trying to maintain a free society."

What do you guys think? Doable?

Any monument makers out there can give us a good deal on prices?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Doable? I dunno.

Worth trying? Hellyes.

How do you get something like this started?

[SteppingRazor]

5. No, not doable.

Several court cases have already established the precedent that Wicca is not a religion -- sad, but true.

[Tamyrlin79]

9. cite?

I'm sorry, but I've seen one in virginia where they wouldn't allow pagan prayer and limited it to judeo-christian, but i haven't seen or heard of anything that challenged wicca as a religion. And honestly, does the court have jurisdiction to decide what is and what is not a religion? I don't think so. Sounds like a court case to me. :-)

[SteppingRazor]

11. Here's the latest one...

In which a judge refuses to see Wicca as a "mainstream religion" while also refusing to define the term "mainstream religion."

In so doing, he made sure that a pair of Wiccan parents couldn't teach their religion to their own child:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

[Tamyrlin79]

14. And that decision was dumbassed backwards wrong.

The point of doing this is to challenge religious bias just like this. We may lose in court, but don't you think it a fight worth having? Our arguments are sound, and seizing the issue in this way lets us be the ones to claim religious discrimination on national TV, rather than surrender that ground to the fundies...

[SteppingRazor]

Oh, I'm all for pissing off fundies, so why not?

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying it won't pass muster. But I'm for anything that shakes up the establishment, particularly where religion is concerned. I am, after all, a committed agnostic. Which actually makes me un-committed, I suppose.

[TimeChaser]

16. Everyone except the judge seems to be against that particular ruling

it's very likely to get overturned. And while he claims it's not a "mainstream" religion, he didn't dispute that it was a religion, at least.

[Melodybe]

39. kick this is such a good idea

I would love to see a big statue of Budda in front of the MS Capital building!

[DuaneBidoux]

28. In Dallas Wiccans were granted the right for opening prayers at City...

Council meetings. There had been a Christian prayer at the beginning of each of the meetings and the Wiccans made a request to say the opening prayer. At first they were denied but at some point they were granted the right. The first thing the City Council did at the next meeting (after prayer) was move to stop saying prayers before City Council meetings. I don't know the exact details but I think you could Google it.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

49. here's a link

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dallas+wiccan+prayer+city+council

[TimeChaser]

13. Wicca is in the official Chaplain's handbook, I believe.

And many universities include Wicca in their lists of religions.

I'm eclectic Neo-Pagan, techinically, but I'd gladly help.

[Tamyrlin79]

18. doesn't matter what religion you are...

The point here is to force the issue that the Right doesn't want to deal with, which is that if you have a public pulpit for one religion, all others have an equal right to access that public pulpit. They want their cake, but don't want to share it. So, since the court is saying religious expression in one place is "okay", then all religions have a right to use that space in a similar form/fashion. That is the central, compelling issue. You don't have to be wiccan to support this, because by attacking the pre-eminence of the fundies' religion we support the rights of all others to co-exist. So, even if wicca or whatever is not your religion, it is in your interest to support the effort.

[hippiechick]

45. Well, if not Wicca ... let's go for ... ISLAM.

... or something that will really make the Fundies' heads spin ....

[LostinVA]

50. The US Military recognizes it as a religion

And the VA case is under appeal, and the Wiccan Priestess is expected to win her case.

[me b zola]

55. If I remember correctly

Several years ago the Army had formally recognized Wicca as a protected religion giving the solders the same protection to practice their religion as christians. I don't have a link, I just remember this being reported a while back.

If I am remembering correctly, then the federal government has already acknowledged Wicca as a protected religion.

on edit, a quick google search and I found a link to support my assertion:

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/military.htm

[bobbieinok]

58. aren't there some Wiccan chaplains in the military?? or at least services?

seems like the RW and the religious wrong were freaking out over this a year or so ago

[Tamyrlin79]

7. I'm not really sure... I was hoping that others out there might know.

That was kinda why I posted this... Would love to have something like this going, but not sure how to go about it. Form an organization, set up a bank account, take donations, buy monuments, track placement of 10 Commandments monuments around the country, pay for placement at the site...

lots of work to be done...

I could do some of it, but it will take a little while... Anyone who knows how to file the 501c organizational non-profit stuff would be very helpful...

[DuaneBidoux]

29. I would think one of the first things to do would be to get an established

Wiccan organization on board.

[Triana]

2. Worth a Try!

...and a good cause, I think.

[dbt]

3. This has GOT to be done!

I don't care what design is chosen, but the word Wiccan should be included--if for no other reason than to drive the fundies (even more) nuts!

:evilgrin:

[Tamyrlin79]

10. basically, it would say simply this:

'An it Harm None, Do What Thou Wilt. --The Wiccan Rede


So, it would be attributed as "The Wiccan Rede"
OR, you could have "The Wiccan Rede" as the heading, with the words beneath it. I'm thinking some pretty celtic script, framed in a celtic knot or something of that nature.

[jayctravis]

48. The Wiccan Rede is the simplest and wisest philosophy.

The inverse of the Golden Rule, which states "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." This puts a lot of expectation on the behavior of other people. The Rede however makes it less intrusive. Harm nothing and nobody, and you cannot do wrong.

My personal definition of "evil" is "doing harm and knowing so."

[XemaSab]

4. we gonna do rock, paper, scissors

for which state capitol?

[dbt]

6. Why don't we use Little Rock, Arkansas,

just so I can keep an eye on things?

:rofl:

[AntiCoup2K4]

19. So that way the Freeps can blame it on the Clenis?

For even though the Clenis hath not dwelled in Little Rock since 1992, it still controls all the evil within.....

[depakid]

8. Not doable-

See Simpson v. Chesterfield County Board of Supervisors.

The divided court won't touch that (or any similar decision). They couldn't even agree how to properly decide VAN ORDEN v. PERRY-

Sorry folks, but Wiccans are out of the game. Now, maybe a Buddha....

[Tamyrlin79]

12. oh, so just because one court got it wrong we surrender??

Ummm. no. we just force the issue in a new jurisdiction, see if we can create some dissonance at the appellate court level, get an opinion in our favor that challenges the ruling you cite.

And, if Wicca fails in one jurisdiction, we'll try again with yet ANOTHER minority religion's religious monuments. We could always go Buddhist or Native American... harder to deny their religions, particularly the latter since they are most definitely "American". I welcome ideas as to how to represent these faiths.

In fact, it may be to our benefit to use a different religion for a monument in each circumstance, to make the issue at hand even more stark in each of the situations.

[depakid]

21. Welp, maybe I should reframe that

Not doable where I assume you'd want to do it- in the so called "bible belt." Sure, you could probably preach to the choir in Oregon or California- and maybe even piss enough people off in the rest of the West to divide the 9th Circuit- but a lot good that will do....

[Dragonfli]

25. The Perfect Monument would be multi faced in Geometry

And on each face would be a different, yet equal, religious expression.

A multi-faith monument to express the freedom, equality and tolerance of all the faiths in this country.

Such a monument would best express the intentions of our founding fathers as well as the spirit of the documents they left us to govern with.

And yes one of the faces should represent atheists as well.

[peacebird]

52. Dragonfli - absolutely BRILLIANT idea!

I love it - a multi-faith monument to express freedom, equality and tolerance of all faiths, including atheism and agnosticism!

beautiful!

[silverweb]

53. Yes!

I like it! It would represent very well the concept that religion/philosophy is like a multifacted crystal, in which each facet represents a just different perspective of the whole.

[DuaneBidoux]

30. Or if you REALLY want to stir it up: Islamic

[Larkspur]

15. The US Supreme Court does recognize Wicca as a religion

Supreme Court: Prisons must accommodate religions
Ohio case included witch, Satanisthttp://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/31/scotus.prison.religion/index.html?section=cnn_latest
May 31, 2005

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court on Tuesday upheld the constitutionality of a federal law requiring state prisons to accommodate inmate religions.

Justices unanimously sided with Ohio inmates, including a witch and a Satanist, who had claimed they were denied access to religious literature, ceremonial items and time to worship.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the 2000 law, which was intended to protect the rights of prisoners, is not an unconstitutional government promotion of religion.

"It confers no privileged status on any particular religious sect, and singles out no bona fide faith for disadvantageous treatment," Ginsburg wrote.

The law requires states that receive federal money to accommodate prisoners' religious beliefs unless wardens can show that the accommodation would be disruptive.
<SNIP>

Here's more on Wicca and US Court rulings http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_rel.htm

[LostinVA]

51. Cynthia's case is under appeal, and she is expected to win

Just an FYI. I know a local Pagan who is in the inside loop on this. THis same issue has been found FOR Wiccas in many other jurisdeictions in the US.

[Todd B]

17. Wonderful idea!

That's a great idea, I agree with some of the other posters that it is at least worth a try.

Why should the right maintain a monopoly on religion? What right does the government have to decide what is and isn't a religion anyways?

[Dragonfli]

20. S.M.I.B.

[Celebration]

22. Shop the jurisdiction

Try to get an idea of where the outcome of the court case is likely to be favorable (based on the federal judges in that place).

[Matariki]

23. i love it! can we make it thelemic instead?

do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. love is the law, love under will.

can we have a wiccan/thelemite war??? ;-)

[SteppingRazor]

24. Definitely!

Let's have a massive Wiccan/Thelemite Holy War. We can have them each claim the same land, then give one of them lots of guns, but not the other one. But the one with the lots of guns has to promise to give up some land to the one with no guns. Clear?

[Q3JR4]

26. Can't we just pick a middle ground?

Wicca would be best (Supreme Court ruling and all recognizing it as a valid religion), but it might be good to get something most of the Earth-based religions could agree on.

[Q3JR4]

27. If you all are really interested,

let's set up a network of like minded peoples. PM me with your email address and I'll get back to you.

Does anyone know what other Wiccan/Pagan/spiritualists think of this idea? I think that some of us would have a problem with the politicization of our beliefs, but on the other hand if the ten commandments are going to be posted it's about time for them to accept our religion too.

Does anyone know anything about creating a 501(c) nonprofit organization?

Do you think paypal would work as a vehicle for fund collection?

Does anyone have webspace in which they can host this in?

If anything else, we can incorporate as a non-profit org and then go from there with everything else.

[DuaneBidoux]

31. I think you are on to something but perhaps a bit of research first:

It seems there would be several good steps:

One: find an established group of Wiccans interested in being the focal point (they could have an adjunct website for that sole project).

Two: Make the objectives clear and simple: to place a Wiccan prayer monument on public property--all money collected will be used to design, build, and install the monument. And, for any related court costs to fight (if pro bono representation is not found).

Third: Try to actually find a jurisdiction with a relatively high percentage of Wiccans for good "group" effect in demonstrations, etc.

Having said all that, I think the best approach is to latch on to someone who already has an established org. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to design a generic letter and send it to each Wiccan group from "Concerned Citizens for Equal Wiccan Representation" until we find one in sympathy that latches on.

[FtWayneBlue]

32. In getting Wiccans together on something,

"Herding Cats" comes to mind - no malice intended. But one group is that might be worth a look is CUUPs, the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans, and another is CAW, the Church of All Worlds.

Peace.

[DuaneBidoux]

35. Very possible--I am Unitarian although not pagan.

[LiberalEsto]

38. I'm both

UU and pagan

I'd like to see us try planting a sacred grove on public property.

[Mojorabbit]

42. Oh!

I love that idea! And have a pentagram engraved on a piece of marble inset into the ground in the middle of the grove.

[DuaneBidoux]

44. I think the UUs would be a great group to instigate it but i have been

very dissapointed in my church's lack of willingness to be active. On Sunday before election the only thing my minister said is "you fail democracy only when you fail to vote..."

In the meantime I'm sure that same morning there were right wing fascist ministers saying "bush bush bush...."

[1democracy]

40. this would be in Salem, Massachusetts

[lildreamer316]

56. ISSAC BONEWITS

I don't think Witchvox would go for it, but he is so politically motivated already....

http://www.neopagan.net/

[RedXIII]

33. a great idea......

but i want to know whether i can be both catholic-wiccan like the fact that there are jewish-christians. please note that this is not a attack on anyone or anything.

P.S. so mote it be.

[thinkingwoman]

34. Since I'm a Jewish-Pagan...

I see no reason why you can't be a Catholic-Wiccan.

Blessed be. ;-)

[Q3JR4]

36. So, do we want to set up our own non-profit,

or do we want to hang on with someone else's? If we become part of another Wiccan org, they might not have the time to really push this issue. On the other hand they may have lots of fundage behind them, and we'd probably be able to find one that already has tax-exempt status.

One of the members of DU has offered us webspace, so we could go it alone. I don't know how long it would take to get non-profit status, and none of us seem to know exactly how to go about becoming a 501(c).

Assuming that we contact other Wiccan orgs, is anyone in contact with Wiccan non-profit groups that may be interested? I can write a letter, but I'd need people, afterwords, to play the part of editor and clean up some of my verbal spewage.

[Q3JR4]

37. Rough rough rough draft.

Dear Sir or Madam.

As you may already know, the Supreme Court has recently issued a ruling allowing the placement of religious monuments on government property as long as such placement meets certain criteria.

In order to keep with the spirit of the first amendment, we represent a concerned group of citizens that is interested in securing a space for all religions including the Wiccan faith. We have yet to come up with a monument design, but we expect it to incorporate the Wiccan Rede in some aspect or another.

We are interested in working with an organization that already has 501(c) status with the IRS so that the process of gathering donations that will be used only for designing, building, and placing these Wiccan Rede Monuments can begin immediately. We've titled our group the Wiccan Rede Monument Project, and we hope that you'll help us by either taking on project members to work on the specifics of these monuments, or by setting up a branch in your 501(c) that our members could then help to get this project off the ground.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. We await your response.

Associated members of the Wiccan Rede Monument Project.

*****************************************************************

What do you all think? It needs help, but I'm open to suggestions. After all, it's a letter from all of us to whichever Wiccan group.

[Dragonfli]

43. I think it's a start!

I will ponder it more thoroughly after work today.
Just a thought - is anybody going to the "Sirius Rising" Festival this year? If so, it may be worthwhile to shop the idea a little while there.

[baron j]

41. It's probably 'doable' in Atlanta. Lots of Neo-Pagans there,

and open-minded, cool people. Atlanta area and some metro county areas voted blue last November.

[SteppingRazor]

46. At least in Little Five Points...

Quite possibly the coolest neighborhood on the planet. It's what Greenwich Village would be, if it hadn't been destroyed by poseurs and heroin junkies.

[baron j]

47. If you like Little Five Points, you'd like Capitol Hill, and the

University District, here in Seattle. rather similar to L5P, and they cover a wider area.

I haven't been to L5P since 1995 (I lived in GA in the 80's, grew up in Jonesboro). I'm pretty certain there are plenty of people involved in other beliefs there, especially since the sort of people who enjoy Dragon Con, the Atlanta Renn Fest, groups like The Changelings, etc. contain many Wiccans, Neo-Pagans, Asatru, Traditional Witches, and Solitaries in their ranks.

[NAO]

54. What we REALLY need is a Wiccan Faith Based Initiative !!!!!!!

Christians would finally 'get it' when they grasped that their federal tax dollars were going to support 'witchcraft'. They would FINALLY understand why all us 'sekular humnists' are upset about giving tax money to Christian groups.

Of course the witches would have to be providing social services - but the ones I know do anyway already, without receiving federal tax subsidies.

[Q3JR4]

57. Wasn't there already a Wiccan faith based initiative?

I remember reading as much on here.

Anyone have the link?

[blondeatlast]

59. This Christian LOVES this idea!

My preference is that courts and government buildings be utterly free of any religious imagery, reference, or icon, but if that can't happen, let's let every religion contribute.

I'll even offer to help you present it!

This is all goooooooooood--if they don't allow it, to SCOTUS it goes!