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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 02:37 PM
Original message
The General: Did Clark Fail to Salute (Clark followed Sec of State orders)
The General: Did Clark Fail to Salute (Clark followed Sec of State orders)


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4052506/

The General: Did Clark Fail to Salute?
Wes Clark won a war, but ran afoul of his Pentagon masters and lost his job. Here's how. A NEWSWEEK exclusive
By Evan Thomas and T. Trent Gegax Newsweek Feb. 2 issue -

One of the most damning charges against retired Gen. Wesley Clark has also been the vaguest. After Clark entered the Democratic race last September, Gen. Hugh Shelton, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters that Clark had been sacked as commander of NATO forces after the 1999 Balkans war because of "integrity and character issues." Shelton has refused to comment further, and Clark's civilian boss, the then Defense Secretary William Cohen, has also remained silent.

The doubts raised by Clark's own bosses have cast an uneasy pall over his presidential candidacy. What really happened? According to a knowledgeable source, Clark ran afoul of Cohen and Shelton by being less than totally forthcoming in morning conference calls during the Kosovo war in the spring of 1999. From his NATO headquarters in Brussels, Clark wanted to wage the war more aggressively, but back in the Pentagon, Cohen and Shelton were more cautious. They would give Clark instructions on, for instance, the scale of the bombing campaign. "Clark would say, 'Uh-huh, gotcha'," says NEWSWEEK's source. But then he would pick up the phone and call Tony Blair and Madeleine ." As Clark knew full well, Blair and Albright were more hawkish than Shelton and Cohen. After talking to the State Department and NATO allies, Clark would have a different set of marching orders, says the source, who has spoken about the matter with both Cohen and Clark. "Then, about 1 o'clock, the Defense Department would hear what Clark was up to, and Cohen and Shelton would be furious."


<snip>Was Clark going around them? Not really. As NATO commander, Clark told NEWSWEEK, "I wore two hats." He reported to Washington, but also to America's European allies. And within the U.S. government, he was within his authority to seek guidance from the State Department and certainly from the White House, as well as from his nominal bosses at the Pentagon.<snip>



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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. oh my god!!!
what an earth shattering news story. this will change the course of history! yes! the course of human history. my god, what will we do now...
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Funny How This Comes Out Right Before NH
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 02:45 PM by cryingshame
Anyway, Wes was Supreme ALLIED Commander. He had a Dual Role to play.

Oh, and Shelton piled on Paul O'Neill the other week.... he's really a pillar of integrity isn't he.

P.S. Isn't comforting to know that Shelton is on Edward's team?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Also that Edwards and Shelton are buddies. Newsweek saves this for
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 03:41 PM by KoKo01
the last minute. Interesting isn't it.

Here's a link to Shelton/Edwards. .......................
(SNIP)
This week Edwards hauled out former Joint Chief of Staff chair Hugh Shelton to attack Clark. As everyone knows the military vote in the South is a big deal, and Shelton, along with a lot of other military people, don't like Clark. The way Edwards sees it, if he can just hang in there with a third or fourth in Iowa and New Hampshire, then he's got a decent chance of winning South Carolina.

In September Shelton said that Clark was relieved of his assignment as NATO commander because of "integrity and character issues." He never said what these were.

Then last week Matt Bennett, Clark's communications man, said he was "simply astonished" at Edwards's use of Shelton and "politics-as-usual mudslinging." "General Shelton . . . initiated what has become a smear campaign that the Republicans have gleefully taken up," said Bennett.

Edwards kept the tiff going with a snooty reply directly to Clark: "Whatever your personal views on General Shelton, I'm sure you agree that he is a respected military leader who served our country with distinction." Concluded Edwards: "I will continue to seek his advice," adding, "When I talk to the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, it's about the safety and security of our men and women in uniform, not about politics."
http://www.villagevoice.com/print/issues/0347/mondo5.php
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. kick
:kick:
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. They are taking orders from the Republicans
I've never used a Clark avatar or a sig picture but I'm one pissed off OKIE
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think ithis quote exonerates him:

"I was forthcoming," Clark insisted. "If gave me an instruction, I did it. I would never have not done what they told me to do. But the truth is, they weren't in touch with the situation well enough to tell me everything to do. It's why you have the title supreme allied commander... The buck usually stopped on my desk... I had, by necessity, a certain independence. Yet no matter how many times I tried to bring Hugh Shelton and Washington to understand the allied side, it didn't compute. They just didn't see it."
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. thats odd
would it not be his job to bring them up to speed on the situation there ? Was he not being relied upon to provide that ?

No man can serve two masters. Clark decided to pick his own and it was the one that suited him as opposed to the one he swore to serve and follow the rules of.

I'm darned glad the Shelton in on my team. Chairman of the joint chiefs is an upgrade over NATO head.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. NATO is an international organization
If the US government didn't want him there they could have objected to his appointment I am sure. Once he is there he has to serve more than just the US government. You can have Shelton, he is a piece of shit.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. NATO is a consortium of our allies
but they all know who the big dog is.

Clark was rewarded with this appointment by the Pentagon. He was expected to represent the organization that put those stars on his shoulders.

He was expected to follow orders and make NATO understand why. Not go crying to Albright.

He was wrong to do this. Thats why military people have a problem with him.

That piece of shit kept you safe and snug in your bed. You don't have to like him but a little more respect for what he and the rest of the Armed Forced did for you would be nice.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. His actions
with regards to Clark have earned him the piece of shit title. For his service to his country he has my respect.

That is just ignorant to think that the commander of American AND foreign forces under NATO is going to be just a puppet position for the US. The consortium/organization what ever you wish to call it wouldn't last long.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. So now we have two unsubstantiated smears!
I am so glad Newsweek brought this trash to our attention!
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overground1 Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Clark: Two-faced, says whatever he thinks people want to hear
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 03:45 PM by overground1
As NATO commander, Clark told NEWSWEEK, "I wore two hats."

The only problem is one of them belonged to war criminal Ratko Mladic.



As an ambitious officer, Clark gained a reputation among his peers for telling different people what they wanted to hear, without seeming to realize that his listeners might later compare notes and accuse Clark of being two-faced. Clark might have done better if he had adopted a more straightforward manner


This is just the kind of person Clark is, it seems. It's certainly how he has operated politically and within the Democratic party now that he's decided to join. He wears liberal positions like band-aids, to cover his still oozing neocon sores...

We know what hat Clark wore prior to becoming a Democrat and entering the Democratic primary, but what hat would he wear after getting the nomination?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. OMG! I've NEVER seen that picture or read that article excerpt!
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 03:51 PM by wyldwolf
<snicker>

Hey overground1, CHALENGE me on this. Please.
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overground1 Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. there are 2 article excepts
one is:
As NATO commander, Clark told NEWSWEEK, "I wore two hats."

The other is:
As an ambitious officer, Clark gained a reputation among his peers for telling different people what they wanted to hear, without seeming to realize that his listeners might later compare notes and accuse Clark of being two-faced. Clark might have done better if he had adopted a more straightforward manner


Which one were you talking about?
You may note that the material issue of my post was regarding the second quote. I find it highly disturbing that Clark is as two-faced as he is. Because that means he will also be two-faced with us and our party and the liberal positions he's trying on for the primary. And I find it highly disturbing that anyone would defend Clark's two-faced behavior here of all places. Can't you see we're getting set up by Clark just as he's done his whole military career? YOU LIKE CLARK BECAUSE HE TELLS YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR.
"Clark gained a reputation among his peers for telling different people what they wanted to hear".

Did you ever have a boyfriend/girlfriend who first got together with you while they were still with someone else?
Were you surprised when later they turned around and did the same thing to you with someone new?

Are you going to be surprised when Wes Clark screws over all of the people who believe in him right now?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Your entire argument is based on ONE line - "two faced"
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 04:13 PM by wyldwolf
The fact is SO many other disagree with that statement (by the way, WHO made that statement? Where did the other excerpt come from?)


...General Barry McCaffrey told the Washington Post: "This is no insult to army culture ... but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1044318,00.html

I would say these sound like integrity and character issues I admire.

More...

After prosecuting NATO's first war by uniting its 19 countries and defeating the Yugoslav Army with no alliance casualties, the four-star general had ruffled enough feathers at the Pentagon that his career abruptly ended.

"Wes could not possibly be a better leader," Taylor said. "I really respect Wes in a very special way for his brilliance. But he's also a man of real character and high personal values."

Any problem Clark had with higher-ups in the Pentagon was due to "professional jealousy" by officials who had trouble with a highly intelligent man who made his case with solid evidence and debated vigorously, Taylor said.

"The guy, when he starts doing something, is exhaustively focused on achieving the mission," said retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who has known Clark since the two taught at West Point decades ago. He preceded Clark as commander of U.S. Southern Command.

The tension with Washington stemmed partly from the failure of bureaucrats to give Clark resources he needed as the commander on the scene, Grange said.

During and after the conflict there was friction between Clark and his superiors, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Hugh Shelton and Defense Secretary William Cohen, apparently over Clark's high-profile persona and his willingness to challenge them.

At the root of this conflict, Taylor said, was jealousy of a "superstar" by Clark's superiors at the Pentagon. "Shelton and Cohen didn't like Wes being direct with them, arguing his case," Taylor said. "They wanted someone they could tell what to do."

more...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/Nation/AB925B9C76D6B82686256DBC00375519?OpenDocument&Headline=Clark\'s+rise+in+military+impressed+and+rankled+observers

and more...
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Let's go, overground1...
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overground1 Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Actually its based on my own observations that I have noted many times
Go back and read them. I've said several times that "Clark wears positions like band-aids". I have said many times that Clark says whatever he thinks people want to hear. This has been my impression. And it has just been validated by NEWSWEEK.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Oh, now its you OBSERVATION! You said there was TWO excerpts...
...but now it is you observation.

bwahahahahahahahhaha!

Typical.

When called to make your case those like you backpedal.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Little one line insults? I won't alert the mods on it so other will see..
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 04:32 PM by wyldwolf
... how you first claimed to be quoting TWO articles but then, when asked to provide proof, recanted and said it was your "personal observation."

And now my reading and comprehension skills need fine tuning.

Oh, that is RICH!

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Exactly! As I posted here previously...
As supreme allied commander, Clark had the right to seek and obtain an audience with the head of state of any member NATO nation.

When he spoke with Clinton and Blair, it was as the supreme allied commander, NOT as a General in the US Army.

In effect, Clark pulled rank over Shelton and Cohen.

There was one incident in particular that sent Shelton over the edge. Clark embarassed him by being right!
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Saving lives more important than Shelton's feelings.
People don't like it when they're decisions are appealed, but there is nothing wrong with it.

A judge may not like it when a plaintiff appeals his decision to a higher court, but a judicial appeal isn't unethical.

Same thing with with Clark appealing Shelton's decisons.

Clark was trying to save lives of people who would be massacred (ethnic cleansing).

Saving lives is a bigger ethical imperative than avoiding hurting Hugh Shelton's feelings.









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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Supreme Allied Commander
gave Clark the AUTHORITY to go to heads of states....that INCLUDES President Clinton. He did NOTHING wrong. Shelton and Cohen are just pissed off that Clinton and Albright agreed with Clark. We won't mention the fact that Clark's "retirement" happened behind Clinton's back....that the President of the United States was "out of the loop" on that. :eyes:


Although this is an incomplete discussion done hurriedly to respond to a specific questioner, the key facts are nevertheless addressed.  First, it is well-documented that after seeing what happened in Rwanda, General Clark willingly took a risk to see that something was done to stop Milosevic and prevent ethnic slaughter in Kosovo.  Secretary of State Madeleine Albright agreed with General Clark and was really also a  driving force behind pushing for action in Kosovo.  So this wasn't just General Clark out on his own but there was a conflict of interest between the State Department and the Department of Defense and the Pentagon, perhaps not unlike the rumored clashes of Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld.  There were others also pushing for action who were not at the State or Defense departments.

Despite the fact that Clark had worked with the State Department at the Dayton Peace Accords and although General Clark also represented European interests as head of NATO and was not necessarily under Cohen's chain of command there, Cohen and Shelton blocked his access to the White House in an effort to unfairly control him.  Others felt differently about Clark's right to talk to the White House.  James Steinberg, then the deputy national security adviser, said the White House would not have allowed Clark to conduct an end-run around the Pentagon. "I did not think he was being insubordinate," Steinberg said. But "people who knew him understood that when he felt strongly, he wanted to let people know. . . . My perspective was that there was value in his giving his ground-truth."

It was not unusual for CinCs to have to try and work around the Defense Department and the Pentagon to get things done.  Dana Priest discussed this in an interview about her book The Mission, saying that they risked having their hands slapped if caught . But the difference seems to be in the fact that General Clark was less willing to play the pentagon/defense department games.  General Shalikashvili, who appointed General Clark to NATO, has hinted at this without saying it outright.  Said Shalikashvili, "The chiefs "might have felt that Wes pushed them too far."

That Shalikashvili hint, although cryptic, no doubt comes from someone who really knows what was going on.  There are other possible specific mentions of actions by General Clark that showed his refusal to play the game the way the Pentagon and Defense Department wanted, but this hint tells the real story.  It is interesting that one of Clark's harshest critics during the conflict, soldier activist David Hackworth, has since retracted his criticisms of General Clark and confirmed General Clark's thesis in Waging Modern War that depicted Shelton and Cohen as timid and overly concerned with domestic politics in the face of a concerted campaign of ethnic cleansing. Publishing a book that was in part critical of Cohen and Shelton was General Clark's effort at self-vindication after they retired him early even though he won the war, but it no doubt did little to ease the ruffled feathers that had led to the early retirement.

Since his initial comments General Shelton has refused to give specifics of why General Clark's integrity was questioned.  This has led some to question Shelton's integrity rather than General Clark's.  Dana Priest, who interviewed General Clark for her book The Mission, questioned the actions of Cohen and Shelton after General Clark was retired early, pointing out that they admitted they released the news to the press within an hour of telling General Clark to prevent him from being able to undo what they had done.  Sidney Blumenthal confirms that the way they went about it meant that their work could not be undone.  Blumenthal also plainly states that President Clinton realized he had been deceived by them and was furious when he realized their early retirement of General Clark could not be undone. Part of the deception involved the lie that General Clark had to be retired early to make a place for General Ralston.

After seeing the lies they told and the sneaky way they went about assuring the early retirement, it seems reasonable to assume that they wanted rid of General Clark but that the reasons for getting rid of him were ones that were not defensible to President Clinton. Incidentally, President Clinton has recently made clear his feelings about General Clark's integrity and Hugh Shelton's smear tactics by sending a fax to the Hague to rebut the Shelton smears when Milosevic tried to use them to impeach General Clark's testimony.

Lying to indefensibly get rid someone and releasing the news quickly so that the act could not be undone does not sound like the actions of someone who would have the unmitigated gall to question the integrity of the mistreated person.  But evidently Shelton has no shame.  I frequently disagree with William Saletan, but I think he called this one correctly:

A wise friend once told me you can learn more about somebody from what he says about others than from what others say about him. Given what I've heard so far from Clark and Shelton, if I had to vote for one of them based on integrity and character, I'd go with Clark. Samantha Power, A problem from Hell:"He frantically telephoned around the Pentagon for insight into the ethnic dimension of events in Rwanda. Unfortunately, Rwanda had never been of more than marginal concern to Washington's most influential planners" (p. 330) .He advocated multinational action of some kind to stop the genocide. "Lieutenant General Wesley Clark looked to the White House for leadership. 'The Pentagon is always going to be the last to want to intervene,' he says. 'It is up to the civilians to tell us they want to do something and we'll figure out how to do it.' But with no powerful personalities or high-ranking officials arguing forcefully for meaningful action, midlevel Pentagon officials held sway, vetoing or stalling on hesitant proposals put forward by midlevel State Department and NSC officials" (p. 373).  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6340-2003Dec16_2.htmlAlbright, in an interview, said "it was very clear to me that the Pentagon did not want to move on this issue. . . . Wes and I thought it was worth doing." A former Albright aide said Clark's credentials lent critical ballast to Albright's advocacy, providing cover for Clinton and White House officials who were loath to stand up to unified military opposition on any issue.http://slate.msn.com/id/2091194/#ContinueArticle

In fact, however, Clinton may have been distracted somewhat, but Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was not. Albright was a fiery supporter of military intervention in the Balkans (many have written of the famous meeting where she appalled the reticent chiefs by saying, "What good are all these fine troops you keep telling us about if we can't use them?"). Albright was the prime mover; many observers at the time--supporters and critics alike--called it "Madeleine's war." And her prime collaborator, Richard Holbrooke, Clinton's envoy to Bosnia, also enjoyed direct access to the president. http://slate.msn.com/id/2091194/#ContinueArticle

Thousands of Bosnians were dying in a war that U.S. military power could have ended. Hundreds of thousands of Rwandans had recently been massacred in a civil war to which neither the United States nor the United Nations raised a finger, much less a fighter plane, in protest. Many of those pushing for intervention--and they included not just Clark but some of the most liberal, customarily antiwar politicians and columnists--wanted above all to avert another massacre. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6340-2003Dec16_2.html

Cohen did not speak to him until the seventh day of the war, when several U.S. soldiers at Yugoslavia's border were taken hostage. "The relationship had already soured by then," Clark said. He said that his antagonists in Washington blocked him from speaking with President Bill Clinton once during 11 weeks of combat. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6340-2003Dec16_2.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6340-2003Dec16_2.html

Retired Marine Gen. Anthony C. Zinni, the top U.S. commander for the Middle East while Clark commanded NATO, said, "There is always a tension between the CINCs and the service chiefs. The CINCs see the need for intervention, engagement, while the services control the resources and see this as a distraction."  http://www.state.gov/s/p/of/proc/tr/3719.htm

They each told me stories having to creep around the Pentagon to meet with State Department and getting their hands slapped when they were discovered. They all felt like they were at the end of a tether line, out on the edges of an empire, and that too often no one at the Pentagon cared about what they were discovering. They each felt disappointed with their chain of command, especially Secretary Cohen, who seemed to them to want to talk only to coordinate the next upcoming news conference. They believed that the Pentagon had become far too reactive to the day's news reports.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6340-2003Dec16_2.htmlBut Clark's personal style evidently caused the policy dispute to boil over into a personal clash, according to former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman John M. Shalikashvili, who appointed Clark to the NATO job over the objections of the Army leadership. Clark "is a guy who by temperament is more likely to operate on the edge of the system," Shalikashvili said. The chiefs "might have felt that Wes pushed them too far."   http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34738

Hey, I am one of those: I took a swing at Clark during the Kosovo campaign when I thought he screwed up the operation, and I called him a "Perfumed Prince." Only years later did I discover from his book and other research that I was wrong - the blame should have been worn by British timidity and William Cohen, U.S. SecDef at the time.   Wednesday, August 4, 1999
Clark's Exit Was Leaked Deliberately, Official Says
by Dana Priest
The Washington PostWASHINGTON - One mystery solved. Why was Gen. Wesley Clark's early removal from his post as NATO's top commander leaked within an hour after Clark himself was informed of Defense Secretary William Cohen's decision last week? Answer: Because Cohen's staff wanted to prevent Clark, who had led the NATO military campaign against Yugoslavia and was known to like his job, from working behind the scenes to undo the decision, according to a senior Pentagon official.   The Clinton Wars" by Sidney Blumenthal, senior advsier to President Clinton:
 
(page 651):  "...At the Pentagon, a graceless note was struck in July, however, when General Clark was summarily retired early as SACEUR. But if it was held against Clark that he was a political general, it was a mistaken impression. Clark had in fact put his strategic concerns above politics and above his career. Clark was called at night and informed of the Pentagon's decision without being given any recourse. He instantly received a call from a Washington Post reporter, who had been tipped off by the Secretary of Defense's office, to confirm the story. When the President learned what had happened, he was furious -- "I'd like to kill somebody," he told me -- but there was nothing to be done. Clark's enforced early retirement from the European post was a fait accompli. Secretary Cohen and General Shelton had considered Clark insubordinate. Clinton awarded Clark the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the British gave him an honorary knighthood. But the Pentagon's treatment of Clark left a sour taste amid the triumph..."  Why Wesley Clark Got the Ax at NATO
The general exposed the gap between pretended "combat readiness" and refusal to accept war's risks
By: EDWARD N. LUTTWAK
Published in the LA Times August 6, 1999So why was Clark fired? The official answer is that he wasn't fired at all, but merely asked to accommodate his successor at NATO, Gen. Joseph W. Ralston, by stepping aside a bit early. That is all very plausible except that any four-star general can be parked in a special assignment while awaiting a new command. Because Ralston is especially well-liked, nobody would have objected to the exception.  http://slate.msn.com/id/2089014/




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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Out of the loop
That seems to be the crux of the Shelton/Cohen beef with Clark. He only consulted with them, and keep them out of the loop in full decision making, which was his right as Supreme NATO Commander. And then he won the war he was fighting.

Whereupon Shelton and Cohen showed Clark that they could do things out of the loop too. Revenge is such a sterling example of Shelton's moral integrity and character.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. First Dean has "no sense of humor," now Clark has "no sense of humor"
Last month, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer declared that Howard Dean has "no sense of humor."

Now Newsweek's Evan Thomas and T. Trent Gegax are declaring that Clark has "no sense of humor."

Both Dean and Clark seem like cheerful men.

They aren't running for a standup-comedian award, they're running for President.

I've never heard George W. Bush make a funny joke, which is fine, but columnists aren't declaring "George W. Bush has no sense of humor," nor should they.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. Cohen (with Shelton next to him) to the press:
press conference with Sec. Wm. Cohen:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2000/t05022000_t501koso.html
Q: This is General Clarke's last visit to Kosovo today. Any word on how he has performed his job?
Sec Def.: He has done an extraordinary job. General Clarke is one of our most brilliant officers. He undertook a mission that is perhaps one the most complicated and complex and carried it out successfully. As I mentioned in my remarks, this air campaign was the most successful in the history of warfare. We had over 38,000 sorties that were flown. We had only two planes that were shot down and no pilots lost. That is a record that is unparalleled in the history of warfare. So, General Clarke and his entire staff and subordinates and all who participated deserve great credit.
Q: Why is he leaving office, then?
Sec Def.: He is leaving because we have General Ralston who will become the new SACEUR. We are now replacing many of our CINCs throughout the world.
Q: It is not a reflection on his performance?
Sec Def: No reflection at all. He has done an outstanding job as the Commander-in-Chief of U.S. Southern Command, and he did an outstanding job here as EUCOM Commander and
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. Shelton: Smear was "just politics"

During the General's testimony in The Hague, Milosevic used Shelton's quote smearing Clark's character and integrity to impugn the General's testimony. The prosecutor Carla de la Ponte called Shelton to confirm and to evaluate whether he should come to testify on Milosevic's behalf. Shelton backpedaled, saying it was 'just politics.'
http://ccobb.forclark.com/story/2004/1/6/11059/60174
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Shelton was vetted to see if he should testify for Milsovic???
That's rich. I don't know about you, but getting on the short list of potential character witnesses for a genocidal dictator doesn't sound like Shelton's a good judge of character at all.

By the way, I find Edwards to be an man of complete integrity. Shelton's endorsement and work for him is not seen by me to be a slur on Edwards.
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nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. "I wore two hats."
"He reported to Washington, but also to America's European allies."

Therein lies the problem.
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overground1 Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, and next time Clark tries to pulls rank on Kerry
Kerry just needs to say "When I was serving in the military, I took my orders from America, not Belgium, and I do not have to take orders from you now, General Clark."
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. And that would be a disgusting thing for Kerry to say
I hope he wouldn't stoop so low as you would have him do.
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overground1 Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Clark already stooped that low, so I guess you respect Kerry more
You should probably switch your icon then.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Really? When?
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overground1 Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. when he belittled Kerry as a "junior officer".
I'm not going to play this game with you. Your candidate isn't going to get the nomination because most of us Democrats aren't stupid enough to be suckered by him. And if he does somehow get the nomination, I will find someone else to vote for.

End of discussion.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. (Bursting out laughing!) I understand. You can't make your case...
... and I doubt this is "End of discussion."

We'll see if I'm right.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. That's over, bury it n/t
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maxr4clark Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. Unsupported comments = smear
I think that the facts presented in this article support what Clark has said, and serve to exonerate him. I have a serious problem with this quote, however:

"The problem may have been partly a matter of Clark's tone and manner. As an ambitious officer, Clark gained a reputation among his peers for telling different people what they wanted to hear, without seeming to realize that his listeners might later compare notes and accuse Clark of being two-faced. Clark might have done better if he had adopted a more straightforward manner, perhaps leavened with a spot of humor."

There is no support given in this article for the opinion from the reporter. This is what we studied in high school as "yellow journalism", treating the opinions of the reporters as the news rather reporting facts and analysis of those facts. I'm sure that similar smears have appeared about all of the candidates, I'm not claiming Clark is being smeared more than others.

My point is that, in an article supposedly clearing up a smear, another smear is given to replace it. This is irresponsible journalism.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Look at posts 10, 12, 18, 21, 25, 26, 28, 30, 32
... first is was an article, then his "personal observation" - engaging in similar tactics like you just described.
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maxr4clark Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Thanks
Most of your work with whatshisname went on while I was interrupted by taking care of my sick wife--and my sick self.

I got hot enough about this that I sent Newsweek an e-mail, asking for a response indicating they're retracting their smear or I'll urge Clark's campaign to litigate. :)

Clark is right, we need to hold people responsible more often in this country.
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. Full Article,Please! Clark was a true Leader!
You omiited the best quote by Madeleine Albright about bombs and orgasms! Listen, Clark's two-facedness, which is called diplomacy in more polite forums, allowed him to get done what he needed to do - save a couple million people and prevent a really,really big war. I think that anyone who can handle this type of inpput from many sides, and make everyone except Milosevic and his supporters happy, deserves to be POTUS.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
40. After all of Bush's lies, the right wing media dares to say "character"?
Why don't they report on Bush's lack of character.

These media assholes are almost 100% Bush supporters. It's disgusting.
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