Kos: Plame case update

[quaoar]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/27/16318/8942

Recent reports in the Valerie Plame case have revolved around informed speculation that the investigation has expanded from the original leaker to a probe of the larger administration effort to disseminate the information -- specifically, that Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald is pursuing perjury and/or obstruction charges against administration officials who lied about their roles in the affair. Thus, Fitzgerald needs the testimony of Cooper and Miller not as direct evidence against the leaker himself, but as the final link in proof of a larger coverup of the crime. (For recent overviews see here and here.)

A number of journalists at this point have testified as to the administration officials that spread the Plame leak to them, including the Washington Post's Walter Pincus. But at this point, the number of administration officials involved in the case would appear to extend far beyond that of the original Novak leaker or leakers. (In addition, Novak himself has changed his story multiple times -- first citing a CIA source in his conversation with Wilson, then citing two "senior administration officials" in his subsequent column -- as well as changing his story as to how and why he was given the information by those officials. In short, Novak has probably given testimony to Fitzgerald, but that testimony is probably deeply suspect.) If the testimony of other interviewed reporters and administration officials conflicts, there would certainly be a solid basis for a more encompassing obstruction investigation -- and that appears to be what is taking place.

One of the most credible working theories is that a midlevel administration official involved with the Niger uranium claims was the one who "broke" Plame's undercover status, after a retaliatory investigation of her husband. That official then shopped the leak widely inside the White House as personal retaliation against Wilson, distributing the information to more senior individuals that may or may not have had clearance for such highly classified information, but who in any event would have had little credible "need to know" justification. Those multiple figures, including apparently senior administration officials, then moved the information to reporters via the usual press contacts -- perhaps knowing the leak itself was a crime, or (dubiously) not. Certainly, reporting indicates, Fitzgerald has been able to confirm the involvement of multiple White House personnel in a coordinated effort to push the story to reporters -- and yet, incredulously, none of these administration officials have been able to tell Fitzgerald where they themselves obtained this classified information -- or, if they have, Fitzgerald has obtained significant evidence suggesting investigators should not believe them.

If this is indeed the case, and as commonly reported the Special Counsel has moved from the original crime into a investigation of a wider after-the-fact administration coverup, Fitzgerald likely needs Cooper and Miller to narrowly testify towards establishing that the particular administration officials they spoke too did indeed speak to Plame's covert status before it was widely known -- classified information relegated to a narrow set of people, and presumably not something they would ordinarily have clearance towards, and presumably something they only could have received from someone with access to that information. Presuming Fitzgerald indeed has contradictory testimony from the players in question, which is a very safe bet, this in turn would fundamentally prove that these officials had lied to investigators about where they obtained the information from, in an effort to protect the original (criminal) leaker. And that coverup would be an indictable offense.

[ClintonTyree]

1. The question I want answered...

is why Cooper and Miller stand a chance of going to jail and that pig fucker Novak is still walking the streets? The asshole that leaked the story isn't considered an accessory? :wtf:

[stepnw1f]

2. That Man Is an Evil Little Shithead

I see his face and just want to punch it.

[zinndependence]

4. I was thinking the same thing!

Where are Woodward and Bernstein when we need them?!?

[merh]

6. Maybe Novak is a target of the grand jury investigation?

Who knows. Maybe if Miller and Cooper give the full story regarding their sources then it will lead to giving false statement charges against Novak? :shrug:

[sendero]

32. That's exactly what the story speculates..

... just because Novak talked doesn't put him in the clear. If what he said is at odd with what several others said, he could be in a heap of trouble.

[tavalon]

8. I can answer that one

Cooper and Miller refused to talk. Novak squealed like the piggy that he is.

[AuntiBush]

11. This Morning CNN Made a Big Boo-Hoo Fuss Over It...

And showed a picture of Novak... an interview of the female reporter Cooper or Miller... can't remember as the pile of shit heads skywards daily.

These folks are hiding the source to whom might have leaked about Valerie Plame, if I'm not mistaken, right!?!

[H2O Man]

13. Abrams on MSNBC freaked.

Of course his father, who is a great constitutional attorney, represents Miller.

[Beetwasher]

21. Because Novak Already Squealed Like A Stuck Pig

Though it seems he probably lied and changed his story several times.

[LightningFlash]

3. Bu$h: "I leaked your wifey to the press....."

"Cheney ordered me too and plus it was fun!!!! Rove dressed up as a israeli and found out the real identity of her because she was a stinkin liBeral and Rove would have gutted her had he gotten a clear shore."

:crazy: :crazy:

[robertpaulsen]

5. Bookmarked and recommended!

This guess is as good as any until the indictments come. And if this theory is correct, they will come.

[shraby]

7. I have my hopes.....

we'll soon see how it ties in with our research RP. Should be interesting.
If I were either Miller or Cooper, I wouldn't travel alone and stay out of small airplanes.

[robertpaulsen]

9. Me too!

This is the most optimistic Plame news I've heard in almost a year. I'm definitely keeping my eyes and ears open. I'm hoping Dean was right about this being Watergate II.

[H2O Man]

10. Re: "midlevel administration official"

"In fact, senior advisors close to the president may well have been clever enough to have used others to do the actual leaking, in order to keep their fingerprints off the crime. .... Mid-level officials, however, do not leak information without authority from a higher level. They would have been the instruments, not the makers, of decisions." (The Politics of Truth; Joseph Wilson; page 445)

[shraby]

14. Mid-level don't know the information

in the first place in order to leak it...it has to be passed to them and the order given.
Anyone know how long before Miller and Cooper are either put in jump suits or take their seats in the grand jury room?

[H2O Man]

15. Soon, I hope.

I'd like Cooper to cooperate. I do not find him offensive. I think that he is acting on a sincere belief. However, I disagree with him.

Miller is a different story. Her connection with the "neocon spy scandal" indicates a connection to the administration that goes beyond what Novak enjoyed.

[Nothing Without Hope]

18. That's a good point. The high-level people are very experienced in

participating in different sorts of crimes and know the tricks of keeping their fingerprins off. Midlevel personel are disposable, BUT - in this tightly wound organization, you KNOW they would not have dared without direct clearance from the bosses. So, if they catch a midlevel drone, will he squeak? Or will be he too frightened of the Bush criminal family? Tough call - who is scarier, the Justice Dept or the Bush Admin goons? I know which one I'D have more nightmares about.

[Me.]

12. This Is An Excellent Summation

of what I thought was going on and why Miller and Cooper are in the cross hairs, the first two dominoes, in a long line of them, to be knocked down. I'm thinking that at the very least Cooper will squawk. It may take Judy longer because she's made such a point of saying she won't but I give her no more than a month of cleaning prison lavs before she breaks.

[DanCa]

16. Listen up Novak you piece of filth

Why dont you procalim your christianity that you love so well and confess your sins against your neighbor. Cmon you sniveling hack go ahead and practice what you peach for a change.

[LightningFlash]

19. What is Novak afraid of I wonder? n/t

[annabanana]

17. who could it have been...

"administration official involved with the Niger uranium claims was the one who "broke" Plame's undercover status"

Any chance it was a walrus mustachioed bully?

[Beetwasher]

20. Fitzgerald Is On No One's "Timetable" It Seems

Hopefully this means he's doing quite the thorough investigation, despite the claims of many that he himself is part of any cover up.

[kohodog]

22. And I've heard whispers that Cooper and Time plan more legal action

So we may still have to wait, unless Miller talks. Fitzgerald is a) stalling, or b) solidifying his case to make it ironclad, and thats his mo.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

FROG MARCH the whole lot!


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Me.]

25. But What Other Options Do They Have?

The case goes back to Hogan now and he has already made his ruling.

[quaoar]

26. They have two options

A. Go to jail.
B. Testify and be ruined professionally.

Having been a journalist for the last 25 years, I can say that any reporter who is worth a shit will choose A.

[Eloriel]

44. I SO disagree with that, quaoar

I understand the point, but I just don't think the protection journalists normally get about not revealing their sources should cover (a) treason and (b) an obvious attempt to literally rub out a political opponent and intimidate however many more.

I think these two journalists -- and any others -- need to fully apprehend the gravity of this situation and do the RIGHT thing which is to reveal the evildoers. And yes, I'd say the same thing in a corrupt Democratic administration (if we ever see a Dem administration again). Otherwise, AFAIC, these two journalists (and any others) become complicit in the crime -- and corruption, as Novak already is, and Miller is with the conduct of this war.

You know, when you're dealing with ruthless sociopaths and fascists like the post-Gringrich Repugs in Congress and the whole administration, you DON'T play by the normal rules and expect anything but for that to be taken advantage of. Ask Tom Daschle. Ask Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. Following the rules is perceived as weaknesses to exploit. This administration has used and absued the press, and this is just one more example. They are hiding behind this protection and fully expecting the principled (or, in Miller's case, biased or bought) to provide cover for them. That's not time, IMO, for "the rules" to be honored by just one side, as is the norm with this administration.

[quaoar]

47. What treason was committed?

There is no treason investigation here. This relates to a specific statute that protects the identity of covert agents. The word treason appears nowhere in any of this.

Neither of these two reporters printed anything.

Now, if Judith Miller was tipping off some Islamic group that they wer going to be raided, as I read somewhere in this thread, then that's another issue. But as far as the Plame case goes, they didn't do anything.

I imagine that what happened was a decision was made at the WH to leak this info, so a WH official called around to some reporters he had dealt with before (Miller, Cooper, Novak maybe others) and told them, "Hey, I've got something good for you on that Joe Wilson guy but you can't say who told you." And the reporters, as is standard procedure in such situations, said OK. Once they were told, they obviously decided not to use the information -- except for Novak. They may have very well understood the implications of revealing the identity of a covert agent. Or something else might have smelled fishy to them. Who knows? Or maybe they wanted to write about it but a wise editor reined them in.

The point is -- they did not use the information. I don't have the statute in front of me but I doubt that simply receiving such information is indictable. If I were to start a thread on DU revealing the identity of a covert agent, should everyone who reads that thread go to jail? Now, if Miller and Cooper sought out a WH official and urged him to reveal a covert agent's name, that might be another matter. Of course, if they had done that, they would have used it.

I realize a lot of people hate Judith Miller and want to see her face rubbed in it. And it is true she did a fabulous job cheerleading for war and sucking up to the neocons. If I were the editor of the NY Times I'd fire her for that.

But as much as I'd like to see a truckload of indictments come down on this, it is not worth trashing the whole system of sources being able to rely on a pledge of confidentiality -- and that's exactly what this case threatens to do.

[staticstopper]

23. I hope Bolton goes down with it too

:popcorn:

[tsuki]

24. This is utter and total BS. I spent over 8 years being a foot soldier in

the investigation of the Freeportgate and DGI/ECJV "Grand" Jury investigations.

Grand Jury investigations are a farce. Want to cover up something? Call a Grand Jury. Don't have enough evidence? Call a Grand Jury. What to create loop holes to be exploited later? Call a Grand Jury.

This is my problem with the "Grand Jury."

Judith Miller has NEVER admitted that she was given information. NEVER. So how does the State's Attorney know she was given information? Because Novakula told him (hearsay?) Or because he presented to the "Grand Jury" in such a manner? In fact, he lied without fear of retribution?

In Florida, a State's Attorney can present rumor, hearsay, supposition, or just plain lies to the "Grand Jury." And in the case of Freeportgate, can hand pick the jurors. They sifted through the lies and rumors they wanted presented. They ridiculed any "Grand Juror" that asked a question that they did not like. They returned an indictment without any evidence from an investigatory agency. They tied up a citizen for (as I have seen) ten years fighting the system until they were bankrupt.

They don't have to win. They only have to intimidate the masses. This is total BS.

[H2O Man]

27. I think she has.

It's early morning, and I don't have anything in front of me to document this, but I have seen Judith Miller on tv discuss the fact that while she was provided the information, and took notes on it, she did not run the story. Further, a mid-level White House administrator who admitted to the Grand Jury that he leaked Plame's identity to several journalists has granted Cooper and Miller permission to reveal the content of his discussions with them. So I think that there is no issue about if Fitzgerald knows that Miller has the information or not. Further, keep in mind that in a closely related incident, Miller called and warned an Islamic "front" that the FBI was going to visit them within 24 hours. Judith's role in these events appears to go beyond being a journalist, and is more that of a participant.

[tsuki]

30. On NPR, she and Copper were interviewed. In it, Copper admitted

that the information was leaked to him. Miller denied every having admitted receiving the information, and Copper and NPR backed her up on that.

The larger question is, if the mid-level administrator admitted that he leaked the document, why is that case not gone further? Why, in these past two years, has the case been stalled around two reporters?

My take on the mess - the only ones that will end up in jail are Miller and Copper.

I have seen this misdirection in Political Grand Juries before, namely the Freeportgate Grand Jury. That Grand Jury, called to investigate political corruption, ended in the bogus indictment of two citizens, and the politicians walked.

It has been too long for this to be a legitimate investigation.

[H2O Man]

31. That's odd.

I am not aware of anything else that indicates she has ever taken this stance. I think it is safe to say this is not an issue -- there would be no case if there were any question about this. Abrams would certainly have come forward with this.

An investigation would likely go further, in large part because it is known that the White House took actions that one official described as "bringing out the earth-movers to cover this up." Hence, if two mid-level officials are willing to fall on their sword, it does not begin to answer the obvious question: how did they know Plame was CIA? They would not have any way, other than to be told by a high-ranking White House official .... and that would be a crime. And so there would be a need to confirm any claims to fact these mid-level officials made. I expect that we would agree that there would be no reason to accept anything they said on face value.

Further, each journalist who was given Plame's identity equals one potentential criminal count. It makes no difference if Novak wrote an article and Miller didn't.

It would certainly have been nice if it were wrapped up in six months. However, considering it wasn't, there are two options: {1} to continue with it, or {2} to drop it completely. I assume only the administration and its supporters would argue that it should be dropped.

[kohodog]

28. New York Times has a long article

snip

The case now returns to Federal District Court in Washington, where Judge Thomas F. Hogan will hear arguments on Wednesday about when and where the reporters, Judith Miller of The New York Times and Matthew Cooper of Time magazine, will begin to serve their time.

Ms. Miller has said she will go to jail rather than testify. "Journalists simply cannot do their jobs without being able to commit to sources that they won't be identified," she said in a statement yesterday. "Such protection is critical to the free flow of information in a democracy."

Representatives for Mr. Cooper were less categorical, saying they would file a motion to reargue the case and make no final decision until Judge Hogan ruled on it.

http://nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28leak.html?hp&ex=1120017600&en=7d23405f792b6cee&ei=5094&partner=homepage

From this it seems like the options are limited for Cooper and Miller and the case may wrap up soon. It will be interesting to see if Fitzgerald actually comes up with any indictments, and if they are for the outing or perjury/obstruction.

[H2O Man]

29. Yes, it will.

I think that we will see results that include indictments against mid-level officials. I hope that leads to their turning over. It's one thing to toe the administration line when jail is far away. Everyone in the Watergate case(s) held strong when jail was a distant threat. When a person has to begin preparations for incarceration, the mind does funny things.

[sendero]

33. Nothing frosts me..

.... more than someone trying to claim their direct involvement in the coverup of a crime, TREASON for Christ's sake, as an issue of "journalistic integrity".

If Ms. Miller had a fucking shred of integrity to begin with, she still would not have an arugment. And she doesn't.

This is not an issue of protecting folks who have blown the whistle on a crime, this is protecting folks who have COMMITTED A CRIME.

Anyone who thinks they are a "journalist" who doesn't get the distinction, well what can I say that won't just get deleted?

[H2O Man]

34. Exactly.

When people talk about "protecting whistle-blowers," I could puke. This is the exact opposite of protecting a whistle-blower. Wilson was the whistle-blower, and he had the balls to publicly call the administration on its lies. To avenge that -- and to protect its role in creating the forged yellow cake documents -- they exposed Plame.

Miller was also taking part in the closely related activities, including warning the Islamic front that the FBI was going to visit them within 24 hours. I believe that an objective look at the evidence shows that she was a participant in the criminal activities of the White House. Any claim that she is acting as a journalist are hollow.

[kohodog]

35. Wasn't Rove called in to the GJ?

Amazing how the details fade from memory in about a year's time. Anyone who gave less than truthful testimony to the Grand Jury could be on the hot seat. Fitzgerald seems like a no nonsense type of guy and not a political hack (This being said based only on his record), so I think it is possible that a Libby or Rove could be facing charges early on. At least one can hope...

[H2O Man]

36. Yes, he was.

Keep in mind that Wilson's book indicated a split between Rove and those in Cheney's office who were responsible for the initial leak. Rove called Matthews etc, not recognizing that he had potentially violated a federal law. When David Corn pointed this out, Rove became furious with those under Cheney .... which means Bolton's group.

What did Rove testify to? Of course, it is not known for certain outside the hearings. But it is believed he said he had viewed a "pre-release" of Novak's article, and thought Plame's identity was public knowledge.

[Eloriel]

46. You believe all that?

I don't. All that poor, innocent Rove garbage. Not for a minute.

[Me.]

39. Well Said

It also "frosts me" as to the number of people, even here on DU, who don't seem to understand the distinction between someone whose behavior is complicit in criminal wrongdoing, (in this case the more egregious charge of treason) and protecting a whistle blower. As for Ms. Miller, while she can't be jailed for her continual butt bump with the felons in the WH it does show a pattern of collusion on her part.

As for being jailed, I've thought for some time that is it comes down to it, Cooper will testify. Judy likes portraying herself as a martyr, I give her a month. She should be grateful she's not Susan McDougall and that Fitz isn't K. Starr, though I would love to see her shackled and bound by iron chains for her sins.

[H2O Man]

40. On Ms. Miller and criminal charges .....

I think that if the exact nature of her warning the Islamic front is uncovered, she may indeed face jail time for more than her refusal to testify in front of the grand jury. I believe that her role in that incident goes far beyond "journalism."

[Me.]

41. I Wonder What Is Happening With That Case

Have we heard anything about it recently? You're right about the possibility of charges there, at the very least an obstruction charge could be made. Why exactly did she warn them is what has never been fully answered for me? Is there a connection between the "charity" and her pal Chalabi?

[bejammin075]

37. Wow. Read it & re-read it. Stunning.

This is like an infected sore for the Administration that's going to swell up and swell up and burst at some point in the near future. I can't wait for a small dose of accountability!

[Toots]

38. It would do my heart well to believe justice may someday happen

I believe Bolton was the main hateful person behind the leaks but who knows they are all hateful people who would stoop to anything including treason to gather more power.

[Me.]

42. Push Comes To Shove

I knew Cooper would fold.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1589674

[H2O Man]

43. The average person

finds incarceration an unpleasant experience. The pampered class especially so.

[Independent_Liberal]

45. Kick!

[H2O Man]

48. Good morning, DUers!

After watching our fearless leader shed a tear last night, we might think nothing in today's news will compare. But I think that we may be in for a "special treat" in today's current events discussion.