Clark: DC lobbyist, raised money for Repubs, voted Nixon, Bush, Reagan

[Feanorcurufinwe]

and was not a Democrat when he started running for President.

That's what Kerry's flyers in NH say, and that is the truth. I'm sick of people claiming Kerry 'called Clark a Republican'.

[windansea]

1. jaysusssss!!

what do you think the last 2 items imply??

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Draw whatever inference you want. Is it true or not?

Everything on this flyer is accurate.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. This may or may not be effective with "a typical voter"

I think it looks silly next to Clark's reply flyer personally. However methinks all you are doing on a DU forum is pointing out that Kerry is attacking Clark, whether or not a case can be made that, taken out of context, the statements made have a basis in fact. It would be easy to craft a "factual" anti Kerry flyer also, taking comments and actions out of the context of his entire career. Kerry is going negative. That is the news, at least it is here on DU. Thanks for raising it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. My point is that this is the truth.

It is usually considered ok in politics to speak the truth, and to accurately point out those aspects of your opponents record that the voters may find troubling.


And anyone who uses this flyer to say that Kerry 'called Clark a Republican' is lying.

[bicentennial_baby]

16. Was Kerry telling the truth when he said:

"He is a very qualified, very distinguished individual, a friend of mine, I might add, and I will never say anything critical of Wes Clark." ?

[HuckleB]

33. Well, he didn't say he wouldn't print anything critical of Clark.

;)

[bicentennial_baby]

38. LOL

True, true...my bad :P

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. This flyer is not the only attack Kerry has made on Clark

I can't recall for sure whether I have heard of a more direct one on that specific score, uttered by one of the campaign people, I might have, but don't have it at my finger tips so I will let that pass. The low road can be pursued either with truth or lies. Out of context, many truths can be used as weapons. For the record, Kerry has chosen the low road and that flyer is a great example of that. He made his choice, and he will live with the consequences.

[windansea]

29. Kerry's record

YES on IWR
YES on Patriot Act
Yes on NCLB

find those votes "troubling" ???

oh that's right...he didn't really mean yes

and it's obvious that Kerry's flyer smears Clark as a repub but if you like to play word games enjoy!!

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windansea]

20. I recall that a Clark dem registration was found

from a year earlier, and Kerry knows how Ark registration works

I will tell you something that's accurate....Kerry sides with chimpy on the AWOL issue while dissing dems Clark and Moore

[HuckleB]

28. Wrong.

Clark was a registered Dem, as has been noted repeatedly.

Also, accuracy includes telling the whole story. This flyer is clearly inaccurate by omission. It's disingenuous crap.

[bicentennial_baby]

2. CLARK'S RESPONSE

[windansea]

4. yes!! a very classy response!

[mikehiggins]

8. Golly, were they lying then?

Or are they lying now?

John K had better start thinking about mortgaging another mansion if he plans on beating Clark for the nomination.

I'll say this for him, though. If this is how he treats his friends, I'd really hate to be his enemy.

[jpgpenn]

22. hey BB, do you have the other link..

that was posted here yesterday showing another Kerry flyer more directly calling clark a high paid Republican lobbyist?

I have no search function for DU.

[bicentennial_baby]

26. Here you go

[jpgpenn]

40. nah that wasn't it

There was another. I wasn't sure if you posted it or someone else. The wording dealt directly with "Clark a High Paid Republican Lobbyist".

It shows much more clearly how Kerry is calling Clark a repuke.

Anyway, Thanks.

[bicentennial_baby]

41. Here's the Kerry press release

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0109c.html

"If you like Dick Cheney so much that you want another Republican lobbyist in the White House, then Wes Clark may be your guy. "

[Tom Rinaldo]

50. Aha! That's the one I was remembering in my post #21

Thank you for finding it. OK, let's see how this one can be spun away as factual, eh? "Another Republican lobbyist" Well if you consider Dick Cheney as one, then who is the second "Republican Lobbyist" It certainly can't refer to Wes Clark, can it? I mean, Kerry wouldn't allow an official campaign Press Release to go out calling Clark a Republican, would he? That wouldn't be factual. Hard evidence refutes it. Now, saying Clark voted for a Republican is factual, so I suppose by comparison putting out flyers saying Clark voted for Republicans would be Kerry's way of taking the high road.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. Kornblau was out of line

I agree. I wasn't happy when I read that comment. He said something else recently I thought was too much as well, I can't remember exactly... I guess he's our Lehane.

[Tom Rinaldo]

61. He wasn't subtle enough, is that it?

I will be gracious enough to Thank You for admitting it though.

[funky_bug]

132. I'm not gonna go so far as to say...

mark my words... but if I were undecided, and that ridiculous, poorly crafted flyer came in my mailbox, that would pretty much decide it for me.

Kerry will probably take 1st in NH, but I got a feeling he just helped Clark and Dean into better position.

Interesting... no attack on Edwards. Wonder why?

[Frederic Bastiat]

103. Sun Tzu would be proud!

"Know thy enemy"

Clark has his crosshairs on W, too bad Kerry ain't.

[kentuck]

3. "..and slept with pigs..."

But we didn't call him a pigfucker..... :)

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

6. They never attack him on policy

It's interesting that you never hear the fellow Dem candidates attack Clark on policy. They only attack him on the fact that he is not a life-long Democrat, a fact that will make him more electable in the general election.

[isbister]

139. That would be the most difficult

for Kerry because he and Clark see many things the same way.

Promises are nice from any politician but Clark has the problem of having little record to show and part of that record has three very unpopular names to most Democrats, nixon, reagan, and bush

[Bonobo]

7. Your thread is disingenuous at best.

Arkansas does not require a voter to declare a political affiliation -so he didn't. Not hard to understand, is it?

Also, he was a registered independant - a fact you conveniently ignore.

Plus, he voted for Clinton twice and Gore too.

If being a lobbyist automatically made a person invalid...well, I guess you know there would be no one left in Washington.

[BlueStateGirl]

12. The lobbyist thing doesn't bother me at all. Whyis being a lobbyist

worse than being a politician that does their bidding?

[OKNancy]

49. and the only military item he lobbied for was electric bicycles

for heavens sake

[salin]

113. bwahahaha

THAT is what the big fuss is about? I have to admit I have only been skimming some of the "stories" in this forum - as there seem to have been more cheap shots and overblown (ridiculous) stories that read as if they are more geared towards taunting supporters of a couple of campaigns than they are to bring "real information"... but if this is what the lobbyist flap was about... LOLOL

Geez the stuff fellow duers can turn into big issues...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. You must be misunderstanding the meaning of ' disingenuous'

I am pointing out that everything in this flyer is accurate.

I am pointing out that this flyer does not 'call Clark a Republican'.

What's disingenuous about that?



Arkansas does not require a voter to declare a political affiliation -so he didn't. Not hard to understand, is it?
Also, he was a registered independant - a fact you conveniently ignore.

Now, if the flyer said that Clark is a Republican, your points would be on topic. What it says is that he raised money for Republicans, and voted for Nixon, Bush, and Reagan. Not hard to understand, is it?



Plus, he voted for Clinton twice and Gore too.

Who said he didn't?


If being a lobbyist automatically made a person invalid...well, I guess you know there would be no one left in Washington.


Did anyone claim "being a lobbyist automatically made a person invalid" ? No.

[BeyondGeography]

44. Note the date of the NYT article (9/27/03)

on the flyer, which cites a quote Clark made in May of 2001. Is that disingenuous enough for you?

[Bonobo]

65. Nope. It is the very definition of disingenuous!

disingenuous


adj : not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness; "an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who...exemplified...the most disagreeable traits of his time"- David Cannadine; "a disingenuous excuse"


By selectively leaving out information. (You/Kerry) intentionally encourages misunderstanding. For example, by leaving out the fact that he was an indie, you allow people to have the impression that he was a repuke.
Another word to desribe it would be "intellectually dishonest".

[Feanorcurufinwe]

130. Aparrently this post has been approved so I must answer it.

What would be intellectually dishonest, would be to claim that this flyer says Clark is a Republican, or in some way falsely attacks him, when in reality:

Clark was a lobbyist.
Clark did vote for Nixon, Reagan and Bush.
Clark did raise money for Republicans.
Clark was not a registered Democrat at the time he announced, http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2003/nf2003101_0874_db038.htm">according to his campaign.

and that is what the flyer says.

[Jerseycoa]

9. No it is not true - Please note 5/21/02

[Bonobo]

15. You go Jersey! Nice one!

:toast:

[HuckleB]

23. Smile!

That's what I thought.

[mikehiggins]

35. Oh heck. Don't you just hate it when people produce actual proof

of things? It's just so much more easy to keep on lying and lying and lying like some demented Energiser Bunny.

One thing about the Kerry camp, though. They make me feel bad for dissing the Dean people for their stunts.

Just shows what three terms in the Senate can teach you about honest and truth.

[windansea]

37. chirpity chirp

wonder why Jersey's post hasn't been answered yet???

[Feanorcurufinwe]

42. It says he voted in the primary, not that he was a Democrat

Oct. 1, 2003

Wesley Clark: Still Not a Democrat
Turns out the Presidential candidate hasn't yet changed his party affiliation as a registered independent in Arkansas

It may come as a surprise to some of his supporters, but Democratic Presidential candidate Wesley K. Clark still hasn't joined the Democratic Party. According to the Pulaski County (Ark.) Voter Registrar's office, the former four-star general remains a registered independent. Even though he has been a declared candidate for the Dem nomination for two weeks now, he has yet to officially change his party affiliation.

A Clark campaign spokesman at first told BusinessWeek that the former general had in fact updated his voter registration to reflect his newfound status as a Democrat. But a call to the Pulaski County Voter Registrar indicated otherwise. When asked to explain the discrepancy, campaign consultant Mark Fabiani says Clark hadn't yet had time to register as a Democrat.

He adds that the fledgling White House seeker plans to make his Democratic status official as soon as he gets a breather. "This has been a whirlwind two weeks," says Fabiani. "There are a lot of things we have to do, and that's one of them."
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2003/nf2003101_0874_db038.htm

Umm, in case you are having trouble interpreting this, it is the Clark campaign confirming that he was not a Democrat when he announced.

[Democrats unite]

47. If you look at the date he became a Democrat in 2002

So it is a blatent lie, and it is from Kerry. Nuff said!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. The Pulaski County Voter Registrar's office disagrees with you.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2003/nf2003101_0874_db038.htm

[democratreformed]

69. And there was a Grand Jury investigation into the problems of this office

after which the registrar was relieved of her duties.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

73. His campaign admits he wasn't registered Democratic in this article

A Clark campaign spokesman at first told BusinessWeek that the former general had in fact updated his voter registration to reflect his newfound status as a Democrat. But a call to the Pulaski County Voter Registrar indicated otherwise. When asked to explain the discrepancy, campaign consultant Mark Fabiani says Clark hadn't yet had time to register as a Democrat.

He adds that the fledgling White House seeker plans to make his Democratic status official as soon as he gets a breather. "This has been a whirlwind two weeks," says Fabiani. "There are a lot of things we have to do, and that's one of them."
10/1/2003
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2003/nf2003101_0874_db038.htm

[Jerseycoa]

77. Arkansas can't be interpreted the same as other states

96% Arkansas 1.5 million voters express no party preference when registering

Party preference is “optional” on the voter registration form

2.6% of the state’s residents register as Democrats

1.4% register as Republicans

Clark was an independent before becoming a Democrat. He has NEVER been a Republican, although he voted Republican in some elections before 1992.


Clark's Lack of Party Affiliation Normal, by DAVID HAMMER, Associated Press, October 2, 2003

Arkansans couldn't even declare party affiliation until 1996, when an amendment to the state constitution let voters add optional party information box to their registration forms.

Arkansas permits voters to request a specific party ballot when they walk into the polls on Election Day or when they request an absentee ballot.

"If you vote in a primary, you are declaring that you want a Republican or Democratic ballot for that year's elections, that's it," said Carolyn Staley, the clerk in Pulaski County where Clark is registered. "If you come back for a primary two years later, you can choose to vote in the other party if you wish."

Pulaski County records show that Clark registered to vote in 2002, casting a ballot in the Democratic primary and then voted in the general election.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

81. None of that changes the fact that Clark's campaign admitted

he wasn't registered as a Democrat when he announced, and that is all this flyer says.

Uncomfortable, perhaps, but true.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

140. Not the least bit uncomfortable actually

What would make me uncomfortable (were I a Kerry, Edwards or Lieberman supporter) would be the vote for the spending bill that just got passed (by 3 votes) that didn't get voted AGAINST by the above mentioned Senators.

What are they getting paid for by the way?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

148. Do you know what cloture means?

[BeyondGeography]

11. Kerry is a cheap-shot artist

Clark has decided to stick his neck out and fight Bush and will never make a dime off the Republican party again. Clark spent most of his life making less than $50,000 a year. This is no small issue for him.

John Kerry is a rich-kid who couldn't even tell you how much his family is worth to the nearest $10 million.

Clark is fighting this fight out of principle, another concept with which John Kerry is only selectively familiar.

[Democrats unite]

13. Dirty politician through & through

Tell the whole story not just little snip it's. But thats flipflop Kerry for you I wouldn't expect any thing less from this disingenuous politician.

[Lefta Dissenter]

17. also raised money for Dems and voted for Clinton (x2) and Gore

I find it interesting that McGovern is willing to forgive Clark's Nixon vote as a 'youthful indiscretion' but some other dems are not. So much for broadening the base of the party! I'm wondering how anyone feels that republican votes some 30 years ago while he was in the military will hurt him in the general election. Won't that be a PLUS?

Hey, let's talk about what sort of president we want in the White House! I want President Wesley Clark, and all of the honor, brilliance, compassion and character that he will bring. He sure has managed to maintain the high road, hasn't he?

Oh yeah, don't forget to check out the Clark Reading Room at www.Clark04.com, which shows his voter registration - gee, he was a registered Dem in 02. Wasn't that BEFORE he declared that he was running for office, contrary to what you and your ugly flier say?

edited to remove link, since I'm SUCH a slow poster, and Jersey beat me to it - that ought to speed up the page for those of us with 'slodems'

[HuckleB]

18. I'm sick of Kerry. Period.

He lets Bush off the hook, and then goes after fellow Dems like this.

Ugh.

[maxr4clark]

19. Yay, Clark is getting attacked again!

We're moving up. :)

[1songbird]

25. What happens win you win the battle and lose the war?

I guess we will find out if this insistent candidate bashing continues in this country. There are many faithful Clark supporters who give there all for him. I have trouble with anyone using tactics like this, Kerry included. My candidate has not engaged in this. Even the supposed "rank pull" was overblown crap. I supported Kerry but this act leaves a bitter taste in the mouth that will not easily go away. If he is the nominee then how will he repair the damage done to other candidates and there supporters?

[jpgpenn]

30. good question

Kerry was my second choice as candidate. Now he is in the ranks of lieberman as far as i'm concerned. All because of this kind of behavior.It truly is sickening!

[funky_bug]

135. I felt the same way, but

I decided not to let my emotions rule, so I did some research on Kerry while I was taking my little hiatus from GD.

I don't like his voting record (sorry, but if you're representing me as a Democrat, you damned sure better be voting like one)

I don't like his plan to strip teachers of their tenure and unions

I don't like his vague statement on minimum wage

That's as far as I got for today. I don't give a rat's ass about his ketchup heiress wife, his Skull and Bones membership, or his silver-spoon background. I don't like his issues or his record, and I sure as hell don't think he needs to be taking the high road.

[Democrats unite]

32. Thats how I feel Kerry was number 2 for me untill this

As I have stated all day it's dirty politics & if this is how Kerry Team wants it fine. They drew the line...

[robbedvoter]

27. Some facts on this:

http://www.forclark.com/story/2004/1/3/85224/73060
also how crap like this nearly drove me out of the party:
http://www.forclark.com/story/2004/1/22/123713/717
(others too) Shameful behavior!

[BootinUp]

31. Don't worry, John is gonna get his turn

Somebody will smear him, probably won't be Clark since the man has too much class for this kind of crap.

[salin]

34. Ah... successful but ironic

Several reports after the Iowa caucuses featured voters who had been undecided.. but in the end selected Kerry (and some Edwards) due to the perception that this was a clean and positive campaign. However there have been reports for months (with now more being confirmed) that this has not been a clean campaign - but rather one of the dirtiest.. the primary distiction being that it runs a covert negative campaign (making it harder to combat). There is the irony.

Sorry to my eyes there has only been one major campaign that has resisted increasingly ugly tactics - that is the Clark campaign.

There were two (now only one) that have reportedly done very ugly behind the scenes work for months - under the cover of sending press items for "Background" with the expectation that though it was provided by a campaign that the campaign would not be mentioned (ergo it goes on the news not attached to candidate b and thus seen as "news" rather than had they worked the same charge into candidate b's speech - and then the charges would be read as less weighty and more political.)

Not a new tactic by any means. But it does make the campaigners look silly when doing this for months - while screaming bloody murder that their candidate is being unfairly slammed by another candidate. (eg the same slamming happening on both sides - but only one is visible.)

The first wind of these activities was heard back a number of months ago to a meeting with a key Kerry and key Gephardt campaign officials discussion how to work together to eliminate the common "threat" of Dean. Later a small group unaffiliated with any campaign - but that employes three people who had until recently been working with the Gep (2) and Kerry (1) campaigns run some particularly ugly/dirty ads - one in particular that is worthy of Lee Atwater.

And as oft reminded on these forums - another candidate when publically negative early on - the biggest distinction between these behaviors - overt vs covert. Personally I would rather see overt - as the charges made can be refuted by those who are charged... rather than doing so dishonestly then professing being squeakly clean.

The most amusing thing is when supporters of any of the major candidates (aside from Clark) call foul on the others - while completely neglecting their own ugly tactics. Imo, one campaign has demonstrated itself most capable on this front - but since it is just an opinion - I will keep that name and judgement to myself.

It could be a good thing on a pragmatic level. Perhaps a couple of these campaigns are prepared to out atwater the atwater protege, rove.

[bicentennial_baby]

36. Check out post #2

where you will find Clark's very classy response to this. Great post, btw. :hi:

[salin]

43. hehe - very smart move on his part - covers two things

a) neutralizes attacks from others (hey look what else they said...)

and

b) maintains a positive image for the campaign.

btw, can you tell that this issue ... bugs the heck outa me? I really think some campaigns are covering a lot of ground for the republicans - and doing so foolishly.

[bicentennial_baby]

45. Me too

I would so much rather hear positive things from any candidate. This stuff turns me off big time, and I know it does other people too. And yes, why give the opposition so much fodder? :shrug:

[Bonobo]

67. I think I owe you an apology.

I did not know you were a Clark supporter. I must have misunderstood something you said (perhaps there was a sarcastic comment that I didn't get.)

In any case, please accept my apologies. I, too, am a Clark supporter.

[bicentennial_baby]

68. You mean yesterday?

I thought there was a mix-up there! Yes, I've been a Clarkie for some time now. No worries, it's all good :P

[Bonobo]

72. Yeah, yesterday. Sorry 'bout that. n/t

[OKNancy]

88. It makes one think that negative works

I've always heard that negative campaigns actually can work. And I'm almost to a point where I think Clark should attack back.

If the fine people of New Hampshire vote for Lieberman over Clark, I'll just throw in the towel, and hope Bush doesn't destroy the country.

[salin]

141. What seems to be emerging

is the covert vs overt negative campaigning. Dean - overt... Edwards - overt - but a little more polite. Kerry - covert while playing "positive" on the surface (which is why, according to many voters in IA, they voted for him).

Good news... negative overt... isn't playing well.
Bad news... negative covert... seems to be playing real well.

Needed news - uncoverering and making very public the negative covert - and let it have the same negative impact that the overt has.

I think Clark is playing it right - and will do well over the long run because of it. He appears much more stately and above the fray. Watch the posters here at DU who are not in current attack mode - who were not always Clark supportive.... note the change in attitude... that is part of the respect and payoff for running the honestly "postive" campaign, rather than one that claims to be doing so but now appears to be behind some of worst of the covert attacks.

And some of the media negativity... isn't just a natural inclination... it is following up on stories fed to them that appeal to the 'oh... good entertainment/news value' side of the lazy dc press corps. I am sure most of the campaigns do some of this... http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6146-2003Dec16?language=printer

BTW, I can hardly think of a scenario in which Lieberman would do better than Clark in NH.

While I am undecided - the landscape of what that looks like has greatly changed in the last week. One of my faves has dropped to the point of some distaste... one I had a few reservations with has risen to the upper tier (btw, that would be Clark).

I guess if one wants to look for a silver lining... maybe some dem campaign strategists are learning how to prepare to out atwater, atwater's protege Rove? :shrug:

[lovedems]

39. He might as well have

If you say it quacks and has feathers, you don't have to call it a duck. The understanding is there.

Clark shouldn't have to defend himself on being a democrat. There isn't one thing in his message that is outside the democratic party ideals.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. Why?

Why should Clark not have to prove his Democratic credentials if he wants to be the leader of our party?

[lovedems]

63. I think he has done that already.

How many times does he have to prove himself? How many times does he have to answer the AWOL question? How many times does he have to state that he is pro-choice before people get it?

He has proven his credentials to me and everytime he has defend himself, it takes away from the issues. I want to hear more about that then I do if he is a democrat or not when clearly (to me anyway) he is.

[Clark4Prez]

137. If he was running to head the DNC, yes

As President he represents America, Democrat, Republican, and Independent.

He's a Democrat and has earned the endorsement of the following Democrats:


Bob Butterworth

Congressman George "Buddy" Darden

Gov. Jim Hodges

former New York City Mayor David Dinkins

Senator George McGovern

Max Baucus U.S.
Senator, Democrat, Montana

Marion Berry
U.S. House of Representatives, Democrat, Arkansas

Mary Frances Berry
Chair, U.S. Civil Rights Commission

Michael B. Coleman
Mayor, Columbus, Ohio, Democrat

Rahm Emanuel
U.S. House of Representatives, Democrat, Illinois

Charlie Gonzales
U.S. House of Representatives, Democrat, Texas

Jim Hodges
Governor of South Carolina, Democrat, 1999-2002

Barbara Lawton
Lieutenant Governor, Democrat, Wisconsin

Gaylord Nelson
U.S. Senator, Democrat, Wisconsin 1963-1980

David Paterson
New York State Senate Minority Leader, Democrat

Mark Pryor
U.S. Senate, Democrat, Arkansas

Charles Rangel
U.S. House of Representatives, Democrat, New York

Edward L. Romero
U.S. Ambassador to Spain, 1998-2000

Jim Roth
County Commissioner, Democrat, Oklahoma County

James P. Rubin
Asst. Sec. of State for Public Affairs, 1997-2000

Laura Tyson
National Economic Advisor, White House, 1997-99

Sherron Watkins
Enron Whistleblower

Andrew Young
U.S. House of Representatives, 1973-77;
U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, 1977-79;
Mayor of Atlanta, 1981-1988


'Nuff Said!

[gulliver]

48. Sorry, I'll take McGovern and Moore's endorsement over...

... Kerry's simplistic smears meant to gull people.

[robbedvoter]

133. But Kerry has Alan Colmes - of Insanity and Coma

So there! ;-)

[in_cog_ni_to]

51. That's it.

Kerry is a slimeball.

We will just continue reminding people that HE voted for the IWR and STILL says it was "the right thing for to do to take Saddam out." Even though we know the ENTIRE war was based on LIES.

He voted for the Patriot Act for crying out loud!

He's a member of the Skull and Bones.

He voted FOR the IWR.

He voted for "The Patriot Act.

He's a member of the Skull and Bones.

He voted FOR the IWR.

He voted for "The Patriot Act.

He's a member of the Skull and Bones.

He voted FOR the IWR.

He voted for "The Patriot Act.

He's a member of the Skull and Bones.

He voted FOR the IWR.

He voted for "The Patriot Act.

He's a member of the Skull and Bones.

He voted FOR the IWR.

He voted for "The Patriot Act.

He's a member of the Skull and Bones.

He voted FOR the IWR.

He voted for "The Patriot Act.


Kerry is a SLIMEBALL.

[WiseMen]

53. Why are we repeating this here. May be relevant to some in N.H. but here??

Clark is a friend of John. They have worked together.
When Clark was ahead, criticism served some purpose. Not now.

[bicentennial_baby]

54. Because

Kerry's camp is still doing this to Clark and Dean, and it's bullshit.

[OKNancy]

56. I am just sick today

I want to say "Wake up"

The Republicans are playing the Democrats like a fine violin. Every smear they want to come out, or manipulate to make an ordinary thing seem ominous ( lobbying), every lie that is screamed and then the apology is whispered....everything is playing into their hands.

Anyone with half a sense of real politics knows that Clark is the one the Republicans fear.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. Actually

they went out the week before Iowa. I posted it now because a lot of people here have been claiming that Kerry put out a flyer that called Clark a Republican, and I finally got a scan of the flyer with which to refute the charge.

[bicentennial_baby]

62. Well that's not what I'm hearing

From what I've heard, they are still showing up in people's mail in NH, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

[salin]

91. sort of a depends on what the definition of "is" is moment

for most folks - the flyer scanned does exactly what you claim it doesn't do. Technically it does not say the words "clark is a republican"... but its content and layout appears to be making exactly that statement.. it just doesn't use those exact words.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Kerry just mailed these out.

It hasn't stopped. Kerry's a slimeball.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

71. So

Will you call Kerry a slimeball when he mails out factually accurate attacks on Bush during the GE?


Yes, Kerry is not afraid to campaign rough. He is not afraid to go straight out there with the truth, even if it will be labelled as an attack.

Clark was a lobbyist.
Clark did vote for Nixon, Reagan and Bush.
Clark was not a registered Democrat at the time he announced, according to his campaign.

Just wait till you see Kerry unload some truth on Bush.
But remember, Teresa has said her half-billion will not fund any attack ads unless the Republicans engage in character assasination. Hmmm, I wonder if that will happen.

[mchaudry]

112. Kerry was my second choice but not anymore.

i am very surprised and disappointed in join kerry and his negative campaigning. he has turned me off completely. i do not care for any of the dems now asccept for clark. for many of you democrats questioning clarks party affialiation you have stepped over the line. wes has voted for democrats longer than many here on this board i bet have even done their civic duty to vote. he raised funds for republicans and democrats. so what. lot's of democrates have. for you to stretch the truth by claiming kerry is only stating the facts shows you have no integrity and neither does your candidate. if kerry wins he will get my ABB vote but i will not volunteer an hour of my time nor donate a dime of my money to him.

that is the price you pay for this sort of BS from his campaign.

[BeyondGeography]

59. I hope Kerry supporters notice

how much animosity his tactics are causing. I know plenty of Dean supporters who can't stomach your candidate. And the Clark camp has just about had its fill as well.

The 60 Minutes piece tonight, where Kerry will state that Clark is dismissive of lieutenants, won't help, either.

How is all of this helpful to your candidate?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

66. 60 minutes - Kerry was responding to a question.

Clark botched his exchange with Dole by letting Dole get under his skin, and making a comment that, well, frankly was dismissive of junior officers. I think anyone making an assessment of the primary campaign will agree that Clark is a threat to Kerry's nomination. Of course we haven't seen 60 Minutes, so we only have a snippet to go on, but Kerry was given an opportunity to land a fair punch on Clark, and he took it. What you are seeing is a campaigner who is not going to be pulling any punches, not when it counts, either now or when going up against Bush. Politics is a rough game sometimes, but Kerry is up to it. Is Clark?

[BeyondGeography]

76. Dole baited Clark, Clark messed up

Kerry takes advantage. He will not mention the context of the remark tonight. Political profiteer.

To your second point, Kerry IS a more skilled poltican than Clark, and there's something to be said for that skill in the GE. There's also something to be said for not alienating people within the party, many of whom once considered Kerry their second choice, but have been turned off by his duplicity.

Kerry's riding high now, mostly because Dean has self-destructed. There are many primaries to go, including major states like NY, where I live. There's still a big downside to pissing off Democrats.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. Maybe because Kerry's hide is so tough

he expects the same in his fellow candidates.

[BeyondGeography]

Tough hides don't turn tail

Every time there's a tough vote (see IWR). At least he showed up for that one.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

86. That implication is offensive.

And it is ironic that the most politically costly vote of conscience of Kerry's career is the one you use to smear him with charges of cowardice. I don't think General Clark would be proud to read your post.

[BeyondGeography]

102. OK, low blow

Kerry must be getting to me.

[Tom Rinaldo]

89. You know something? Clark didn't even mess up

His reply quip to Dole's dig was so so, sort of a "C" grade, maybe even a C+. It was meaningless banter. The media is after Clark, and Kerry has exploited it. Clark doesn't have to make a real mistake for a comment to get spun against him. I expect that from the media, and from Republicans, but not from a Kerry campaign that claims it is being "positive".

If you are saying that you have to go negative on anyone or anything that is in your way, than God help America. You want to see a what a positive campaign looks like? Review the transcript from today's Meet The Press. One: Clark was given a chance to respond to Kerry attacking him, and he stayed gracious. Two: Clark used his time to talk about real issues and to hold the Bush Administration responsible for real failings, there wasn't a word spoken by him about any campaign's gaffes or misstatements, or comments or actions dug up from his Primary opponents past. Clark kept his focus on Bush and what was needed for America. IF Clark becomes our nominee the public will see how negative attacks can be weathered with grace. With Kerry it will become another mudfest, and Democrats tend to lose those to Republicans every time.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

93. Well if he didn't mess up, what's wrong with Kerry talking about it?

:shrug:

[robbedvoter]

85. Kerry in October: Clark only takes orders, no field experience in war(???)

Kerry said a few month ago: "regime change begins at home" A few wingnuts barked at him ans he backed down. is this how kerry will face Bushco? I saw a lot of bipartisanship these 3 years, no facing off!
Kerry only attacks fellow dems!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

90. What?

Kerry Says US Needs Its Own 'Regime Change'
April 3, 2003
Senator John F. Kerry said yesterday that President Bush committed a ''breach of trust'' in the eyes of many United Nations members by going to war with Iraq, creating a diplomatic chasm that will not be bridged as long as Bush remains in office.

''What we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States,'' Kerry said in a speech at the Peterborough Town Library.

Despite pledging two weeks ago to cool his criticism of the administration once war began, Kerry unleashed a barrage of criticism as US troops fought within 25 miles of Baghdad.
Kerry Says US Needs Its Own Regime Change


Kerry Stands By Bush Criticism
April 7, 2003
Presidential candidate John Kerry said Monday that democracy affords rival Democrats the right to criticize President Bush even with the nation at war.

The Massachusetts senator has come under a withering attack from Republicans for suggesting that the United States, like Iraq, needs a regime change. Traveling through Iowa, Kerry rejected what he called "phony arguments" from the GOP that political candidates should mute their criticism of the commander in chief.

"This is a democracy," Kerry said. "We could be at war a year from now. Would we put the election on hold?"
Kerry Stands By Bush Criticism

[HuckleB]

64. 95.96 % of Arkansas voters register with no party affiliation.

Declaring a party affiliation is optional, and it's an option most people don't take. That means there are a whole lot of Dems and Reps in Arkansas who aren't registered. Once again, we have dishonesty by omission of context. on Kerry's part.

To see for yourself, go to: http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=97 and download teh PDF for "Arkansas Secretary of State report, showing 96 % register as independents." The info. is on pg. 14.

[Bonobo]

70. Got an answer for that Feanor?

BTW, was your choice of Feanor intentional? Not the greatest of role models...
He was a kinslayer and because of him, the light of the two trees was extinguished forever.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. That is an ignored person, so I can't read it.

If you want to ask, I can answer you.

[Bonobo]

79. Here it is:"95.96 % of Arkansas voters register with no party affiliation"

Declaring a party affiliation is optional, and it's an option most people don't take. That means there are a whole lot of Dems and Reps in Arkansas who aren't registered. Once again, we have dishonesty by omission of context. on Kerry's part.

To see for yourself, go to: http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=97 and download teh PDF for "Arkansas Secretary of State report, showing 96 % register as independents." The info. is on pg. 14.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

83. Well so what?

All the flyer says is that Clark was not registered as a Democrat. That is true. It also doesn't say that Clark was a Republican, which is the charge that has been flying about DU so recklessly. If I hadn't read so many posts at DU that falsely claimed that this flyer said that Clark was a Republican, I wouldn't have posted it at all.

I just wanted to set the record straight about what the flyer actually said.

[Bonobo]

87. Still haven't replied to "disingenuous" issue...

I believe you are guilty of "misleading through omission".

The facts that you leave out are very significant to the questions you raise. So are you really being intellectually honest?

BTW, I want to keep this (fairly) civil.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

131. I won't address your accusation that I am dishonest.

I don't think this forum is an appropriate place for us to post opinions about other DU members.

But the facts are:

Clark was a lobbyist.
Clark did vote for Nixon, Reagan and Bush.
Clark was not a registered Democrat at the time he announced, according to his campaign.

[HuckleB]

80. Stand up with honesty and integrity and get ignored.

I guess that's the American way.

Sheesh.

[Bonobo]

82. I got yer back, bro. I reposted it.

[HuckleB]

110. Gracias.

I guess it doesn't matter. Facts be damned for Feanor, I guess. Oh well.

Cheers!

[adamrsilva]

74. Kerry was AGAINST the FIRST Gulf War and FOR the SECOND

one. That just about says it all for me.

Dean or Clark 2004.

[Nicholas_J]

84. Big Deal

I am a very.very Kerry supporter, but I will support Kerry, Clark, Edwards, Lieberman or Mr McGoo if he gets the nominations. Anyone but Dean for me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

96. I agree, I'll enthusiastically support Clark if he gets the nod.

[davidinalameda]

92. it's sad that Kerry is resorting to these kind of tactics

I thought he had more class and integrity

Guess he'll do anything to get the nomination

Thank goodness the Clark campaign is above cheap shots like these

[bicentennial_baby]

95. Indeed

See Post #2 for Clark's classy response

[Bread and Circus]

94. Look, Kerry is fine, but lay off Clark...it's low class. We'll support

Kerry if he's the nomination.

Don't you think there is enough crap around here without stirring
up more?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

98. All day I've been reading posts

that claim these flyers say Clark is a Republican. They don't. And I felt the record needed to be set straight.

[Bonobo]

99. Respond to my posts, if you can.

Or have I been put on ignore for the egregious sin of speaking the truth?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

101. What is the question or comment you want me to respond to?

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windansea]

107. it's very clear what the flyers "say"

Mr "positive" continues to smear Clark as a republican by way of omission...

PS. the OP has not "set the record straight"....anyone with common sense can see what the flyer implies...and all this thread has done is create more distrust for the dirty politics the Kerry campaign is waging against Clark and others while Kerry postures as Mr Clean

thanks for getting this more attention!!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

111. I think it is important that voters in the Democratic primary know the

facts that are in this flyer. Let's face it, these are the biggest reasons not to vote for him. His record is stellar, his positions are good, his rhetoric is persuasive. The only real troubling facts are the ones listed in this flyer.

For me, for example, the second vote for Reagan is something that I just can't understand or justify. I'm all for convincing people who voted for Reagan to vote Democratic instead. That doesn't mean I trust them to be President.

[Auntie Bush]

97. Clark also voted Clinton, Clinton, Gore

Doesn't that make him a Democrats?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

100. The point is, Kerry has been falsely accused

of putting out flyers that say Clark is a Republican.

[HuckleB]

106. Well, accusing Kerry of that is far more accurate than Kerry's portrayal..

of Clark. That's for sure.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

117. Please describe the inaccuracy.

What is inaccurate in this flyer?

[HuckleB]

120. Read my posts above.

Don't ask me to repeat myself. That's just game playing.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

126. There are no inaccuracies.

Clark was a lobbyist.
Clark did vote for Nixon, Reagan and Bush.
Clark was not a registered Democrat at the time he announced, according to his campaign.


Those are the facts pointed out in the flyer. The fact that Clark voted for Clinton doesn't make it inaccurate to say that he voted for Reagan twice. The fact that Clark was not a Republican does not make it inaccurate to point out that he was not a Democrat.

[HuckleB]

142. Yes, there are.

The entire piece is inaccurate. If you present only half the story, you present a story that is not true. If you only know part of the intormation, your conclusions are faulty. This is basic. Don't play games. This is crap on Kerry's part. Please don't tell me that you don't understand that.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

147. You have failed to point any out, however. What is inaccurate?

I understand your point, yes. But it is wrong.


Everything in that flyer is accurate.

If there were something inaccurate, you would be able to contradict it.

But, you can't. All you can do, is bring up other, equally true facts that do not contradict the facts in the flyer.

[JPJones]

104. Kerry had better be nice...

I've got a copy of "The New Soldier" and I'd be happy to photocopy it for voters in SC, AZ, NM, MO, OK and ND. They'll LOVE the flag desecration.

But that's not how my campaign does things. But if pushed....

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. Do you really think Kerry is afraid of threats?

Kerry's ready. You say that's not how your campaign does things, and of course, we know that's true because none of the Democratic candidates are gonna do that. But one thing we know for a fact,that is how the Bush campaign does things, so you can bank on the fact that Kerry is ready to respond.

[JPJones]

109. No the point is..

That your candidate and your campaign are the BIGGEST sleazeballs of the Democrats. That's the only reason the issue hasn't come up yet.

Wes Clark helped stop two genocides, but all your slimey campaign can focus on is a job he had after leaving the military.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

114. You believe these facts are unimportant or irrelevant. I disagree

and I think the voters can make their own minds up about it. If they decide it is too negative, they will turn against Kerry. We'll see on Tuesday.

[HuckleB]

115. The point is they are dishonest when offered out of context.

Too much information is omitted. Those omissions make this dishonest. This is ugly. Real ugly.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

116. There is no context that turns votes for Nixon,Reagan and Bush into

a positive qualification to be the Presidential nominee of the Democratic Party.

[HuckleB]

119. If you want to believe that, be my guest.

Clark has fought hard for Dems for many years. Kerry's trashy piece ignores that part of the history, and makes the piece a completely erroneous picture of Clark.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

123. I respectfully ask in what way

"Clark has fought hard for Dems for many years. "

Please, if you can tell us about that, it would be one way to take this thread in a positive direction.

[HuckleB]

124. Again, I ask that you read above.

And it's difficult to understand how such a negative thread, started by a negative post could ever go in a positive direction.

Gotta go.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

127. "Clark has fought hard for Dems for many years." How? What did he do?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

129. "Clark has fought hard for Dems for many years." How? What did he do?

:shrug:

[HuckleB]

143. He has voted Dem, donated Dem, represented his views.

What more do you want? Or are you trying to obfuscate this entirely ridiculous thread?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

145. "Clark has fought hard for Dems for many years." He voted for Clinton?

Is that what "Clark has fought hard for Dems for many years." means?

I have a feeling General Clark has a higher standard when he characterizes something as 'a hard fight'.


But if he donated, that's something. I hadn't heard that before. Who did he donate to?

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windansea]

121. actually it's good

makes more people aware of Kerry duplicity

sez nice things in public

uses smear tactics in flyers

[HuckleB]

125. True.

But it is disheartening to see Kerry's duplicity defended with bizarro world definitions.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[webkev]

128. I now think Kerry is not nice

I'm glad the way Clark has kept out of mud slinging..

and Kerry is going to fall flat on his face in the south IMHO

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

136. Arrogance will come back and bite Kerry - and teflon from media

for Dems is only on loan - just ask the other guy who thought he's immune. keep antagimizing everyone - because you think you are safe in the Faux/CNN/MSNBC arms....Spit on us, and you'll see the results come back to you. 3*3. aidwsmib

[Feanorcurufinwe]

138. Noone is 'spitting' on anyone;the Kerry campaign is pointing out the facts

[Shanty Oilish]

144. Last summer he was refusing to acknowledge he was a Dem

He wasn't ready to make that commitment, cross that bridge---he said this repeatedly to many interviewers.
What does this mean except that he was simply interested in winning the presidency, and whatever vehicle got him there, he'd board? The Democratic party had to meet the criteria first.
This is the main reason he doesn't meet mine.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

146. He needs to 'Make His Bones' as a Democrat

before he gets the top job.

[Skwmom]

149. They are the equivalent of lies because

they are distortions. I use to be a Kerry fan. Now I can no longer to stand watching the man on tv.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

150. They are lies because they are true?

Where's the distortion?